Quote from: OTV Booster on 01/18/2023 10:12 pmQuote from: eriblo on 01/18/2023 07:20 pmIf you build up to much pressure differential you let the propellants slosh a bit until it decreases enough and then you continue. If you are in a hurry you might trade a bit of venting against extra RCS propellant.That last is the detail where the devil resides. How much venting? How much settling propellant? How long to transfer?No ullage crossover and using thermal/pressure to power the transfer is mechanically simplest and avoids risk of recirculating splatter, but is it a path to acceptable propellant consumption? I really have not a clue.I think I know why the Poiseuille results are so non-intuitive: they don't include dynamic pressure. They're a solution for a flow in equilibrium, but the non-equilibrium case requires the volumetric flow to be established. So the dynamic pressure of the flow can still cause geysering.So, two choices for limiting geysering:1) Limit geysering by starting the pumping operation at low power/high acceleration, then gradually increase power and decrease acceleration as the pool fills. The pool will then provide viscous damping as the flow rate inceases.2) Assuming that only some small amount of prop will blob up and hit the equalization inlet, let it. Soon enough, the pool will be deep enough that viscous damping will prevent geysering. You wind up wasting a bit of energy re-pumping prop that recirculated, but it's probably a trivial amount.A final note on how to limit recirculation: For ullage acceleration a and geyser velocity vg, a blob will fall back into the pool before hitting the equalization inlet if the height h between the top of the pool and the inlet is greater than vg²/(2a). This is really just a limiting condition on how much geysering you can tolerate.
Quote from: eriblo on 01/18/2023 07:20 pmIf you build up to much pressure differential you let the propellants slosh a bit until it decreases enough and then you continue. If you are in a hurry you might trade a bit of venting against extra RCS propellant.That last is the detail where the devil resides. How much venting? How much settling propellant? How long to transfer?No ullage crossover and using thermal/pressure to power the transfer is mechanically simplest and avoids risk of recirculating splatter, but is it a path to acceptable propellant consumption? I really have not a clue.
If you build up to much pressure differential you let the propellants slosh a bit until it decreases enough and then you continue. If you are in a hurry you might trade a bit of venting against extra RCS propellant.
If splatter ingestion is a problem something like the float check valve in a some snorkels might be he answer. Misting would get by but a glob of props would shut it for a moment.
Quote from: OTV Booster on 01/20/2023 06:15 pmIf splatter ingestion is a problem something like the float check valve in a some snorkels might be he answer. Misting would get by but a glob of props would shut it for a moment.Kinda hard to use a float check valve in a system where there's essentially no buoyancy.I really don't think this is an intractable problem. The way we fell into this rabbit hole was as a result of an analysis of what it took to use cold gas thrusters for ullage acceleration. That's a "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this" kind of problem: don't do that. With adequate acceleration, you can use high transfer rates while mitigating fountaining, splash, splatter, whatever you want to call it. High transfer rates and decent thruster Isp result in extremely modest prop losses for ullage thrust.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 01/22/2023 09:59 pmQuote from: OTV Booster on 01/20/2023 06:15 pmIf splatter ingestion is a problem something like the float check valve in a some snorkels might be he answer. Misting would get by but a glob of props would shut it for a moment.Kinda hard to use a float check valve in a system where there's essentially no buoyancy.I really don't think this is an intractable problem. The way we fell into this rabbit hole was as a result of an analysis of what it took to use cold gas thrusters for ullage acceleration. That's a "Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this" kind of problem: don't do that. With adequate acceleration, you can use high transfer rates while mitigating fountaining, splash, splatter, whatever you want to call it. High transfer rates and decent thruster Isp result in extremely modest prop losses for ullage thrust.To be fair, that wasn’t the only reason we fell into this rabbit hole, although I realise I was concerned about a different phenomena than the fountaining/sloshing effect we’re now talking about. That will indeed go away as the depot tanks fill up. I’m talking about the “induced swirling” effect Dan and I were thought experimenting on (that could get worse as the depot fills up). I had to go back and find this old Dyson air multiplier video, because this shows the “entrained air” concept that I was referencing.Depending how fast you have to pump the propellant (i.e. proportional to how much prop you expend in milli-G acceleration), you might get to a situation where you have to slow down as the depot tank gets full to avoid creating induced vortices in the depot, which could have large angular momentum and torque the whole system around.Maybe I’m over egging this, but it seems to me that unless you’re going to fill the whole prop tank with baffles, there will be some threshold flow rate over which it’s not safe to pump.
To be fair, that wasn’t the only reason we fell into this rabbit hole, although I realise I was concerned about a different phenomena than the fountaining/sloshing effect we’re now talking about. That will indeed go away as the depot tanks fill up. I’m talking about the “induced swirling” effect Dan and I were thought experimenting on (that could get worse as the depot fills up)...Maybe I’m over egging this, but it seems to me that unless you’re going to fill the whole prop tank with baffles, there will be some threshold flow rate over which it’s not safe to pump.
If we take 6 hours as a transfer target, and I haven't boogered the numbers, the 120t of LOX needs to move at a rate of 4.9l/sec and 30t of liquid methane at 3.3l/sec.
Quote from: OTV Booster on 01/24/2023 01:52 amIf we take 6 hours as a transfer target, and I haven't boogered the numbers, the 120t of LOX needs to move at a rate of 4.9l/sec and 30t of liquid methane at 3.3l/sec.That's the kind of time scale where prop losses from ullage thrust are gonna hurt you pretty badly.I was initially thinking that half an hour would be about right for 150t of prop, but even that might be too leisurely. Remember that the worst case is actually when the depot transfers all of its prop to a payload Starship. And you can wind up with orbital constraints on how long you can take, especially if you're doing high-cadence tanker ops where you want to de-orbit for quick turnaround, or if you have a depot that's transferring its whole load in an HEEO.If fountaining is a non-issue with any appreciable pool depth in the receiving tank, then you should start off slow but ramp up to >100kg/s as soon as possible. Remember, in microgravity, your pump power can be tiny, even for high flow rates.
FWIW, because of the methane downcomer transfer tube the propellant inlets will be off center. This doesn't negate vortex formation but I think it would keep it from being a big concentric tank enveloping swirl. Add a 'T' fitting and there would either be two counter swirls or chaotic movement - I think. If that's not enough, a flapper valve in the outlet T could periodically reverse the output direction and nip a big vortex in the bud.Or, as you say, some max flow rate that the above measures might raise.
I don't think you have to fill the whole tank with baffles; you just need enough of them to generate turbulence before any kind of organized laminar flow builds up. It's not often that tip vortices are your friend, but this is one time they are.You could probably cage the outlet (inlet? the place where stuff comes into the receiving tank) with something to break up the flow even more. Note that I'm implicitly assuming that fill/drain is not the same as the downcomers.
Remember, in microgravity, your pump power can be tiny, even for high flow rates.
Looks like yesterday's WDR took about 52 minutes to load Starship with 1200 ton of prop (385kg/s total - so maybe up to 200kg/s per tank). Not sure if that would be representative of an in-space fill sequence, but hard to imagine it going any faster than that.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 01/24/2023 05:16 amRemember, in microgravity, your pump power can be tiny, even for high flow rates.(Not really. Friction/inertia will instead dominate and create an irreducible minimum.)But the real limit will be cavitation. That same micro-g that reduces the back-pressure from the "head" also reduces the "tail" pressure, the rate that the fluid can reach the intake. (Normally, gravity in a tank is, in effect, acting as a first-stage "pump" pushing the fluid into the actual pump.)
Pumps will not cavitate as long as the ullage pressure is large enough.
Not sure a nose by nose rotational docking is even possible. The mass center of a docked combination of full depot and an empty starship, will be somewhere in the upper third of the depot oxygen tank. How rotation in this case should help settle something is beyond my expertise. Apart from that, the rotation is poised to become extremely unstable. If SpaceX would make that work, it would be a marvel in itself.
I suspect that there will be reasons for settling acceleration to be greater than 1mm/s², but if that's the case, then combusting methox thrusters are about a jillion times easier to engineer than a rotating system. Rotating systems are terrible to make reliable, especially when you're moving their center of mass around by pumping stuff from point A to point B.
Quote from: eriblo on 01/24/2023 11:18 pmPumps will not cavitate as long as the ullage pressure is large enough.Good point. So you can still have equalized pressure between the two ullage spaces, as long as the absolute pressure is a few bar, correct?
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 01/25/2023 04:01 amQuote from: eriblo on 01/24/2023 11:18 pmPumps will not cavitate as long as the ullage pressure is large enough.Good point. So you can still have equalized pressure between the two ullage spaces, as long as the absolute pressure is a few bar, correct?If you already have high ullage pressures, then as calculated above you can omit the pumps entirely and move fluids by pressure difference along. Can't cavitate pumps if you don't have any pumps.
Quote from: edzieba on 01/25/2023 08:12 amQuote from: TheRadicalModerate on 01/25/2023 04:01 amQuote from: eriblo on 01/24/2023 11:18 pmPumps will not cavitate as long as the ullage pressure is large enough.Good point. So you can still have equalized pressure between the two ullage spaces, as long as the absolute pressure is a few bar, correct?If you already have high ullage pressures, then as calculated above you can omit the pumps entirely and move fluids by pressure difference along. Can't cavitate pumps if you don't have any pumps.There's a fundamental difference between high ullage pressures and high ullage pressure differences. The first will eliminate cavitation. The second will move propellant. If you're going to pressure-feed, you need to manage the ullage pressures in both tanks, via venting (on the receiver) and heating (on the sender). I'm still struggling a bit trying to figure out pump power requirements, so really big numbers there could change my mind. But unless that happens, pressure-feeding sounds insanely more complicated than equalizing pressures, especially since the QD has pre-press plumbing built into it.
Equalising pressures during pumping requires continuous ullage gas generation for the sender tank, and continuous venting for the receiver tank. This requires continuous closed-loop control of both gas generation and tank venting throughout the entire transfer process.
Pressure transfer requires pressurising the sender tank once at the start of transfer, venting the receiver tank once at the start of transfer, then opening the inter-tank valve(s) to allow fluid to flow. No additional venting or pressurisation is required during transfer. In the event of an extreme fluid volume transfer (e.g. completely full sender to completely empty receiver) then once transfer ceases (pressure equalised) the tanks can be isolated again, the sender repressurised, the receiver vented, and the inter-tank valve opened again to repeat the process. Venting and pressurisation are "run to completion" processes with no direct constraints on pressurisation/venting time or rate.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but can you give me an example of why rotating systems are so hard to make reliable? I must admit I have a bit of a cringe whenever I see tether systems being proposed, but supposing direct docking as in this picture, spun to produce settling acceleration of 1% of G (0.45 rpm), where do you see the complexity arising? Because I'd hope the potential side benefits of this config in a crewed context would be obvious to everyone (that's not a reason to do this if it makes the prop transfer problem harder, but I'm missing how it does that).