Author Topic: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission  (Read 86078 times)

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #300 on: 07/05/2022 06:15 pm »
Have they stated what the drones would even be for? Could they just be for path finding to make life easy on the rover?

It seems an awful lot of risk to have fetch drones, this is brand new tech in the critical path for MSR. Fetch drones don't seem to make sense.

Online vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #301 on: 07/05/2022 08:00 pm »
Have they stated what the drones would even be for? Could they just be for path finding to make life easy on the rover?

It seems an awful lot of risk to have fetch drones, this is brand new tech in the critical path for MSR. Fetch drones don't seem to make sense.
From the limited information on the web, it appears that the drone(s) would physically collect the sample tubes and return them to the lander with the Earth return vehicle.

There's been a lot of work with drones on Earth on precision operations like this that likely could be drawn on. Combine that with our new confidence in helicopter flight on Mars, and we may have a new option for the fetch rover.

Offline Don2

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #302 on: 07/06/2022 07:39 am »
Does a fetch helicopter really reduce risk? The other alternative is to leave the samples on the rover and hope that it lasts for ten years plus. Perseverance seems to be very healthy. Curiosity is still running. They are nuclear powered so you don't have to worry about dust storms. The odds are very good that Perseverance will last as long as it needs to and be able to deliver samples directly to the MAV.

If Mars Sample Return fails it will probably be because of something that happens after MAV is launched. The risk of rover failure could be managed by giving the MAV lander the capability to collect a soil sample and return that if the rover doesn't deliver.

Deleting the fetch rovers and helicopters reduces cost and complexity, while adding some risk.

Online Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #303 on: 07/14/2022 06:12 pm »
Mars Ascent Vehicle.

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #304 on: 07/14/2022 06:28 pm »
Does a fetch helicopter really reduce risk? The other alternative is to leave the samples on the rover and hope that it lasts for ten years plus. Perseverance seems to be very healthy. Curiosity is still running. They are nuclear powered so you don't have to worry about dust storms. The odds are very good that Perseverance will last as long as it needs to and be able to deliver samples directly to the MAV.

If Mars Sample Return fails it will probably be because of something that happens after MAV is launched. The risk of rover failure could be managed by giving the MAV lander the capability to collect a soil sample and return that if the rover doesn't deliver.

Deleting the fetch rovers and helicopters reduces cost and complexity, while adding some risk.
No plan has the samples remaining on the rover indefinately. There will be a small cache left at the foot of the delta as a "just in case", and by the end of the prime mission, the rest of the samples should be dropped too. It serves no purpose for Persy to drive around with the samples after its done taking them, but it increases risk that something could go wrong.

Offline ccdengr

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #305 on: 07/14/2022 07:25 pm »
No plan has the samples remaining on the rover indefinately.
I believe it's an option, if not the baseline, to keep some of the samples on M2020 for delivery direct to the MAV, in case the fetch rover fails.  See all the docs upthread.

Admittedly the mission design seems like it changes every few weeks.

Online vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #306 on: 07/14/2022 10:08 pm »
Mars Ascent Vehicle.
Much appreciate the human scale.

Online Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #307 on: 07/14/2022 10:23 pm »
Mars Ascent Vehicle.
Much appreciate the human scale.

Meenakshi (Mini) Wadhwa, Mars Sample Return Principal Scientist at ASU’s School of Earth and Space Exploration.

Online vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #308 on: 07/14/2022 10:38 pm »
Mars Ascent Vehicle.
Much appreciate the human scale.

Meenakshi (Mini) Wadhwa, Mars Sample Return Principal Scientist at ASU’s School of Earth and Space Exploration.

So the MAV is about 2.5 Mini's.  That's larger than I'd been mentally thinking.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #309 on: 07/14/2022 11:39 pm »
Mars Ascent Vehicle.
Much appreciate the human scale.

Meenakshi (Mini) Wadhwa, Mars Sample Return Principal Scientist at ASU’s School of Earth and Space Exploration.

So the MAV is about 2.5 Mini's.  That's larger than I'd been mentally thinking.
Reminder that the exhaust nozzles are optimized for near vacuum conditions. So much bigger than one expected.

Estimating that is a 30 inch diameter rocket motor for the 1st stage of the MAV using the Mini scale. :)

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #310 on: 07/15/2022 01:08 am »
Mars 2020/MSR Sample Depot Science Community Workshop
First Announcement
September 28th and 30th 8am-12pm PDT / 11am-3pm EDT / 16:00-20:00 CEST


"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #311 on: 07/15/2022 01:13 am »
NASA's Perseverance Scouts Mars Sample Return Campaign Landing Sites

Perseverance has been used to inspect a stretch of the Red Planet to see if it is flat enough for NASA’s next Mars lander.


https://mars.nasa.gov/news/9222/nasas-perseverance-scouts-mars-sample-return-campaign-landing-sites/?fbclid=IwAR2fNrVMtWHAsiFt_JBFF_MYlPompSnT6vWeaVwv910GwVKCoF2Yhi6PqVg
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline libra

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #312 on: 07/15/2022 03:36 pm »
Quote
Estimating that is a 30 inch diameter rocket motor for the 1st stage of the MAV using the Mini scale.

And to measure the MAV width, you could use Mini' skirt... (badum, tsss ! - runs for cover).

Offline eeergo

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #313 on: 07/19/2022 11:48 am »
Sample Retrieval Robotic Arm awarded to Leonardo:

https://www.leonardo.com/en/press-release-detail/-/detail/19-07-2022-bringing-mars-home-leonardo-signs-contract-with-the-european-space-agency-to-produce-the-robotic-arm-that-will-help-retrieve-samples-of-the-red-planet

Wondering how this will tie in with the in-limbo Rosalind Franklin rover currently sleeping in the same industrial park shared with TAS.
-DaviD-

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #314 on: 07/21/2022 05:30 am »
Rather confused/confusing article from the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62234196

"US and Europe are remodelling their plans to bring rock samples back from Mars, for study in Earth laboratories.

They hope to simplify the process, cut risk and cost using helicopters instead of a British-built "fetch rover"."

But...

"American and European space agencies are now confident Perseverance can do this itself."

"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online edzieba

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #315 on: 07/21/2022 12:53 pm »
Rather confused/confusing article from the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62234196

"US and Europe are remodelling their plans to bring rock samples back from Mars, for study in Earth laboratories.

They hope to simplify the process, cut risk and cost using helicopters instead of a British-built "fetch rover"."

But...

"American and European space agencies are now confident Perseverance can do this itself."
Multiple options:
- Fetch Rover travels to dropped sample caches, picks them up with an arm, then moves them to the MAV.
-- If Perseverance fails, dropped cache tubes are still available. If the Fetch Rover fails or is unavailable, Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself
- Fetch Helicopter travels to dropped sample caches, picks them up, then flies them to the MAV.
-- If Perseverance fails, dropped cache tubes are still available. If the Fetch Helicopter fails or is unavailable, Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself
- Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself in the absence of a fetch rover or fetch helicopter.
-- If Perseverance fails, all samples are unavailable.

Implementing more than one option means a failure does not doom the entire sample return mission architecture.

Offline AstroWare

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #316 on: 07/21/2022 03:15 pm »


Rather confused/confusing article from the BBC

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62234196

"US and Europe are remodelling their plans to bring rock samples back from Mars, for study in Earth laboratories.

They hope to simplify the process, cut risk and cost using helicopters instead of a British-built "fetch rover"."

But...

"American and European space agencies are now confident Perseverance can do this itself."

Multiple options:
1. Fetch Rover travels to dropped sample caches, picks them up with an arm, then moves them to the MAV.
1.1 - If Perseverance fails, dropped cache tubes are still available.
1.2 - If the Fetch Rover fails or is unavailable, Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself


2. Fetch Helicopter travels to dropped sample caches, picks them up, then flies them to the MAV.
2.1 - If Perseverance fails, dropped cache tubes are still available.
2.2 - If the Fetch Helicopter fails or is unavailable, Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself

3. Perseverance can use the duplicate tubes carried on-board and travel to the MAV itself in the absence of a fetch rover or fetch helicopter.
3.1 - If Perseverance fails, all samples are unavailable.

Implementing more than one option means a failure does not doom the entire sample return mission architecture.

(Added some numbering above)

In option 3. Above, it also depends *when* and *how* perseverance fails.

If it catastrophically fails before dropping any samples all architectures fail.

If it's a soft failure like getting stuck, it can drop all samples where it stops..

As long as the sample return launch hasn't been sent yet, they can delay the launch until a sample return fetch robot of some kind is available...


Offline matthewkantar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #317 on: 07/21/2022 04:05 pm »
There seems to be an assumption that the functioning rover already on the surface is more likely to fail than an unbuilt unlaunched and unlanded rover. It would have been lower risk, in my opinion, to keep all of the samples on the rover and drive it to the return vehicle landing site.


Offline whitelancer64

Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #318 on: 07/21/2022 04:19 pm »
There seems to be an assumption that the functioning rover already on the surface is more likely to fail than an unbuilt unlaunched and unlanded rover. It would have been lower risk, in my opinion, to keep all of the samples on the rover and drive it to the return vehicle landing site.

It is a valid assumption. The longer Percy remains functioning on Mars, the more time there is for something to fail. A wheel motor, a robotic arm joint, etc. By the time the MSR lands on Mars in 2029, Percy will have been working on Mars for over 8 years.

8 years is a very long time for things to break or go wrong.
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Offline Targeteer

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #319 on: 07/21/2022 09:47 pm »
July 21, 2022
MEDIA ADVISORY M22-102
NASA, ESA to Discuss Mars Sample Return Mission

Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

NASA will host a media teleconference at 11 a.m. EDT on Wednesday, July 27, to discuss the architecture for its Mars Sample Return campaign.

NASA and ESA (European Space Agency) recently held a systems requirement review as part of the Mars Sample Return campaign’s conceptual design phase -- a phase when the architecture is refined and solidified. The briefing will present the architecture proposal that is expected to be finalized in September 2022.

The Mars Sample Return campaign may revolutionize humanity’s understanding of Mars by returning scientifically selected samples for study using the most sophisticated instruments around the world. This strategic partnership with ESA will be the first mission to return samples from another planet, including the first launch from the surface of another planet. The samples to be returned – currently being collected by Perseverance during its exploration of Jezero Crater, home to an ancient river-delta – are thought to be the best opportunity to reveal the early evolution of Mars, including the potential for life.

Teleconference participants include:

    Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator, Science Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters in Washington
    David Parker, director of Human and Robotic Exploration, ESA
    Jeff Gramling, director, Mars Sample Return Program, NASA
    Francois Spoto, head of Mars exploration group, ESA

Media interested in participating in the call should send their full name, media affiliation, email address, and phone number to Alana Johnson no later than two hours before the start of the call at: [email protected] A copy NASA’s media accreditation policy is available online.

For more information about the Mars Sample Return campaign, visit:

https://mars.nasa.gov/msr/

-end-
    

Press Contacts

Dewayne Washington / Karen Fox
Headquarters, Washington
301-782-5867 / 202-358-1257
[email protected] / [email protected]

Bernhard von Weyhe
ESA Headquarters, Paris
+33 (0)153 69 75 04
[email protected]
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