Author Topic: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission  (Read 91949 times)

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #380 on: 08/01/2022 01:43 pm »
Me think that NASA is worry that they might not get Martian samples first before someone does it. If the Mars sample return program takes too long. So they are trying move the schedule forward.
This isn't true.
A grab and go sample return lander will be incredibly poor compared to these very carefully selected and wide range of samples. Any sample will of course be good, but MSR samples will be in a category of their own.
Let’s not re-hash these arguments again already aired in the thread about the Chinese mission. Also don’t repeat the above stuff which as was already pointed out in the other thread sounds borderline offensive as if other nations didn’t know what they are doing.
Way to shut people down and try to silence a discussion. This has nothing to do with the country doing any of the missions. Any racism in that thread was 100% made up by people like you (victimhood?). Calling one mission not as good as a different mission is not racist, and persisting in doing so only shows that your motives are not scientific.

 It boggles the mind that you can think a single sample from a single spot is just as good as 30 carefully curated samples from an entire area.

Please understand the difference between a drill core and surface samples.  Surface samples tell you very little about the subsurface.  For some questions the core is greatly superior.

A larger regolith samples tell you different information than smaller ones and for some questions are a superior material.

You have been told this many times already.  Please take this onboard.
Where have I said any single sample wouldn't be amazing? I would invite you to please read anything I've written about how 30 different samples from different would ALWAYS be worth more than single sample.

Consider the point of sample return - its to learn about mars. More samples from more places gives more data.

No it does not.  A suite of surface samples provides different data to a deep core.
Please support your opinion. Why would a single sample core be different than 30 well characterized sites?
You state this over and over as gospel but explain why you think so.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2022 01:46 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline Redclaws

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #381 on: 08/01/2022 02:17 pm »
This conversation feels crazy.  One is a sample from beneath the surface (a core), the other is a surface sample.  They’re different - How could they not end up with the power to answer slightly different questions?  Are the terms of the conversation even agreed on?

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #382 on: 08/01/2022 03:23 pm »
I honestly think a single launch, non-orbital-rendezvous
 sample return is a superior approach…

But can it be done within the constraints of PLF diameter and parachute size that are currently available?

AFAIK the MSL design pretty much maxes out the EDL approach that was qualified for Viking. Making a larger lander is a pretty big project so it can be considered something of a bottleneck.

Hmm?  The MSL design (Curiosity, Perseverance) uses a very different approach for the terminal phase of EDL, the famous sky crane.  Are you referring to some earlier part of EDL?

Yes, the earlier part of descent.
After I asked the question I did a bit more reading and I see that the MSL parachute does significantly exceed the Viking design parameters, and needed expensive real world testing. Bigger chute, higher opening speed, longer duration supersonic flight.

I do think PLF diameter remains a bottleneck. If you can't make the spacecraft wider, then as you increase its mass the velocity at chute deployment must be higher.
"I don't care what anything was DESIGNED to do, I care about what it CAN do"- Gene Kranz

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #383 on: 08/02/2022 02:07 am »
Please support your opinion. Why would a single sample core be different than 30 well characterized sites?
You state this over and over as gospel but explain why you think so.

That is a good question to ask. 

One approach samples vertically, the other horizontally. Both are valid, depending on mission aims.

If you want to sample a complex feature with 3D like the Jezero delta, then multiple surface samples is the way to do it.  It provides sampling of different geological assemblages spread over space and time.  Likewise, if you are interested in the surface variability, you'd do the same. It's how I would do it at such regions, it is how I have done it in the past.

On the other hand, if what you are interested in is in situ vertical samples through an active regolith succession, rather than a dormant one exposed in a cliff or crater wall, then drilling is the way to go.  There are many questions on Mars that make this an attractive approach, even for non-sample return regions (as with the Rosalind Franklin rover).  Fresh samples of deeper rock with potentially better-preserved organic material is one reason.  One to two metres is recommended and feasible. Another is to look at how ongoing exchange between the atmosphere and the bedrock has impact on chemistry and mineralogy.  You need a profile for this. A third might be sampling the active zone above an ice table, where there may well be ephemeral liquid water and, at the least, high seasonal concentrations of water vapour, not forgetting possible biology.  Mechanical properties of the top metre or two of regolith, derived from power requirements to drill, compaction, and tests on returned sample is also of interest for those considering future martian infrastructure.  Then there is the ability to provide regolith properties across one to two m depth to better constrain geophysical modelling of data sets such as seismic, thermal inertia and radar.

A bulk regolith sample provides yet another kind of material for different questions.  Perseverance samples are very small, about 10-15 drams, approximately a tablespoon each. Most samples will be of bedrock.  A bulk sample, say 50-100 grams, from a representative surface unit will be more statistically significant and provide ground truth to calibrate remote sensing data across a wide area of Mars.  It will also enable a whole range of operational and safety questions for robotic and crewed missions to be addressed.

Which method you chose will depends on a three way interaction between available technology, budget, and the questions the science team are interested in.  This feeds into site selection.  For example of the ten landing sites to date only two would definitely lend themselves to collection of multiple sample sites across a wide area (Curiosity and of course Perseverance), The others less so or not at all.

Certainly there are types of sample return strategies that were of interest in the past but are now superseded.  JPL's mere 50 gram scoop from 1974, for example.  Or the interesting SCIM proposal of 2002 to connect a few nanograms of dust from the upper atmosphere in a single 6 km/s pass at an altitude of 40 km.

Improved knowledge from martian meteorites also constrains the kind of sample we are interested in in terms of age and composition.  That's a whole different set of questions however!  Many sites proposed in the past as attractive for sample return have now been ruled out because of this, in particular young volcanic rocks.

Now it's your turn.  Explain why you think how a suite of surface samples across a wide area is superior for all questions to a deep drill core.  Also I would be interested to know what your experience is in the collection of geological samples and data that informs your opinion.
« Last Edit: 08/02/2022 03:39 am by Dalhousie »
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #384 on: 08/03/2022 07:08 pm »
Looks like they are taking another sample on Mars. How cool is that?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #385 on: 08/03/2022 11:12 pm »
Looks like they are taking another sample on Mars. How cool is that?

Lower part of the "bacon strip" looks like
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Blackstar

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Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #387 on: 08/15/2022 10:30 pm »
Space.com has an article where a leading Mars researcher, Jack Mustard, says that the new plan to have Perseverance deliver the collected samples to the sample return lander will mean that it can't leave Jezero Crater to continue the long expected extended mission to explore Nili Planum (the Midway site). Has anyone else heard this, too?


"However, by having Perseverance deliver the samples to the return capsule, the Perseverance will have to stay fixed in the landing area for sample transfer and will be unable to continue exploring Nili Planum as originally envisioned," Mustard added. "This will significantly reduce the science return from the rover and put the science of the 'Midway region' [outside the Jezero Crater floor] well into the future."

https://www.space.com/nasa-perseverance-rover-jezero-crater-past-life-on-mars?utm_source=pocket_mylist
« Last Edit: 08/15/2022 10:31 pm by vjkane »

Offline Athelstane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #388 on: 08/15/2022 10:54 pm »
Space.com has an article where a leading Mars researcher, Jack Mustard, says that the new plan to have Perseverance deliver the collected samples to the sample return lander will mean that it can't leave Jezero Crater to continue the long expected extended mission to explore Nili Planum (the Midway site). Has anyone else heard this, too?


"However, by having Perseverance deliver the samples to the return capsule, the Perseverance will have to stay fixed in the landing area for sample transfer and will be unable to continue exploring Nili Planum as originally envisioned," Mustard added. "This will significantly reduce the science return from the rover and put the science of the 'Midway region' [outside the Jezero Crater floor] well into the future."

https://www.space.com/nasa-perseverance-rover-jezero-crater-past-life-on-mars?utm_source=pocket_mylist

This is the first I have heard of this. But I've been assuming that there would be SOME opportunity cost for using Perseverance to deliver the sample tubes, since every day and every mile it has to spend travelling to the MAV lander is miles and days it cannot spend doing science at unexplored locations. And its travels up to that point seem necessarily contrained, too, by the need to remain within whatever JPL decides is a circle which enables a safe journey to the MAV lander site with a high chance of success.

But maybe Jack Mustard has attempted to quantify those opportunity costs.

Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #389 on: 08/15/2022 11:20 pm »

This is the first I have heard of this. But I've been assuming that there would be SOME opportunity cost for using Perseverance to deliver the sample tubes, since every day and every mile it has to spend travelling to the MAV lander is miles and days it cannot spend doing science at unexplored locations. And its travels up to that point seem necessarily contrained, too, by the need to remain within whatever JPL decides is a circle which enables a safe journey to the MAV lander site with a high chance of success.

But maybe Jack Mustard has attempted to quantify those opportunity costs.
Mustard is well placed in the Mars research community and likely to have insider information. There was a press release a while back stating that a flat area to the south of the delta was an ideal landing location for the sample return mission. My impression from the wording was that the duplicate set of 10-12 samples would be left there while the rover continued to Midway, but perhaps that was how I wanted to interpret the wording.

Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #390 on: 08/15/2022 11:27 pm »

This is the first I have heard of this. But I've been assuming that there would be SOME opportunity cost for using Perseverance to deliver the sample tubes, since every day and every mile it has to spend travelling to the MAV lander is miles and days it cannot spend doing science at unexplored locations. And its travels up to that point seem necessarily contrained, too, by the need to remain within whatever JPL decides is a circle which enables a safe journey to the MAV lander site with a high chance of success.

But maybe Jack Mustard has attempted to quantify those opportunity costs.
Mustard is well placed in the Mars research community and likely to have insider information. There was a press release a while back stating that a flat area to the south of the delta was an ideal landing location for the sample return mission. My impression from the wording was that the duplicate set of 10-12 samples would be left there while the rover continued to Midway, but perhaps that was how I wanted to interpret the wording.
Here's a link to the press release on the landing site: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-perseverance-scouts-mars-sample-return-campaign-landing-sites

Offline su27k

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #391 on: 09/16/2022 03:54 am »
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1570451860032561157

Quote
Welch and Glaze say not many changes are needed to Ingenuity's design for the version that will be on sample return mission. Need wheels to maneuver close to sample tubes, hook to grapple them one at a time. Will have somewhat more mass. But don't want to change too much.

Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #392 on: 09/16/2022 12:24 pm »
Space.com has an article where a leading Mars researcher, Jack Mustard, says that the new plan to have Perseverance deliver the collected samples to the sample return lander will mean that it can't leave Jezero Crater to continue the long expected extended mission to explore Nili Planum (the Midway site). Has anyone else heard this, too?


"However, by having Perseverance deliver the samples to the return capsule, the Perseverance will have to stay fixed in the landing area for sample transfer and will be unable to continue exploring Nili Planum as originally envisioned," Mustard added. "This will significantly reduce the science return from the rover and put the science of the 'Midway region' [outside the Jezero Crater floor] well into the future."

https://www.space.com/nasa-perseverance-rover-jezero-crater-past-life-on-mars?utm_source=pocket_mylist
At the press event yesterday, NASA made it clear that the plan is to have Perseverance explore toward the Midway area. So answering the question I raised above. Mustard may have been mis- or incompletely quoted or drawn the wrong conclusion from the information he had.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #393 on: 09/21/2022 01:00 am »
Jeff Foust
@jeff_foust
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."


https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1572144261780365312


Offline Blackstar

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #394 on: 09/22/2022 05:33 pm »
Meanwhile, China:
« Last Edit: 09/22/2022 05:33 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #395 on: 09/23/2022 12:22 am »
Jeff Foust
@jeff_foust
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."


https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1572144261780365312

So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline vjkane

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #396 on: 09/23/2022 03:19 am »
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."
So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.

After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years.

As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.

However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #397 on: 09/23/2022 05:01 am »
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."
So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.

After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years.

As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.

However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.

If they are not going to be retrieved, why collect them?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Online edzieba

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #398 on: 09/23/2022 08:39 am »
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."
So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.

After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years.

As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.

However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.

If they are not going to be retrieved, why collect them?
They would only be retrieved if Perseverance is disabled and cannot deliver it's half of the duplicated samples (and any later ones collected) to the MAV directly, as is the primary delivery mechanism. They are collected to provide redundancy in case of failure, such that loss of Perseverance is not loss of mission.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission
« Reply #399 on: 09/24/2022 01:08 am »
"In an #IAC2022 session on Mars Sample Return, NASA’s Jeff Gramling says current plans call for establishing a surface cache of samples by the end of the year, with half the tubes collected to date. After that, will keep all future samples on Perseverance."
So will these also be fetched by helicopters, or by some other means?
The hope is that these sample tubes will *never* be retrieved.

After the exploration of the crater floor and lower delta, Perseverance will enter riskier terrain, and will be getting older (projects suggest she has a long life ahead, but shit happens). Something could happen that would prevent collection of any filled sample tubes on the rover sometime over the next few years.

As a contingency plan, the rover has been collecting duplicate samples from the crater floor and lower delta. One of each pair will be left on the crater floor. If something happens to Perseverance, the samples could be collected by a future mission.

However, the route ahead contains *many* interesting new potential sample locations. With skill, some luck, and good hardware health, Perseverance will collect a good number of samples from these addition sample locations. It's hoped that it will be this richer set of samples that will be returned. But in case, there will be the samples left on the crater floor.

If they are not going to be retrieved, why collect them?
They would only be retrieved if Perseverance is disabled and cannot deliver it's half of the duplicated samples (and any later ones collected) to the MAV directly, as is the primary delivery mechanism. They are collected to provide redundancy in case of failure, such that loss of Perseverance is not loss of mission.

That makes sense, thanks
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

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