Author Topic: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone  (Read 289565 times)

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1040 on: 07/30/2022 04:05 pm »
How do you do a review and learn from things that haven't happened yet?

Deadman1204's comment was not saying that review of the past is meaningless, but that you shouldn't unfairly judge a past position based on things that hadn't happened yet. There's a reason we say "hindsight is 20/20", because we have knowledge that we didn't in the past.

His comment referred to the attitude of some that Ingenuity was a risk (because it was!) and said that it could easily have failed and wasted the first couple months of Perseverance's time on Mars.

It's good that Ingenuity has done so well, and but that it doesn't change that it was a risk.

Not sure what you're talking about, Ingenuity is successful

*snip*

How would people know that before the launch?

Urghhh, the same way LM/Boeing was confident enough about the first Atlas V/Delta IV launches to put customers' satellites on it? The same way ULA is confident about the first launch of Vulcan to put a lunar lander on it? The same way JPL is confident about the first landing of skycrane to put a billion $ rover on it? It's called engineering you know...

Obviously NASA thinks it has a reasonable chance of succeeding, and they have the paperwork to prove it, otherwise they wouldn't have included it in the mission. This is basic mission assurance stuff, not sure why this even needed to be spelled out.

Ah, yes, the desperate appeal to authority. NASA thinks it's OK, so it must be fine. They've never had a failed mission before.
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"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Star One

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Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1041 on: 07/30/2022 06:33 pm »
That thread is now a pretty remarquable case of "culture clash".

Between the science-driven and the SpaceX-driven (Mars) sides of NSF. Remarquably, the SpaceX side (and its "usual suspects") has invaded the science side territory - and the clash is boiling up.

A pretty remarquable case of what has gone wrong with NSF over the last decade. Still a remarquable and high quality place, but a deeply polarized one.

(Grabs popcorn, some weapons too, and prepares for the carnage)
Compared to general social media this forum isnít particularly polarised.
« Last Edit: 07/30/2022 06:33 pm by Star One »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1042 on: 07/30/2022 06:46 pm »
People tried to get it cut. I criticized them at the time, and they gave lame excuses back.

Iím gonna criticize them, Iím going to criticize *dismissive* pessimism, and Iím going to do it with the advantage of the luxurious certainty that hindsight affords me.
Are you the planetary science or engineering world and therefore were part of the discussions?
I am professionally part of those worlds, and did correspond about it with the program leadership, but I wasnít part of any formal group relating to it.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Skyway

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1043 on: 07/30/2022 09:43 pm »
That thread is now a pretty remarquable case of "culture clash".

Between the science-driven and the SpaceX-driven (Mars) sides of NSF. Remarquably, the SpaceX side (and its "usual suspects") has invaded the science side territory - and the clash is boiling up.

A pretty remarquable case of what has gone wrong with NSF over the last decade. Still a remarquable and high quality place, but a deeply polarized one.

(Grabs popcorn, some weapons too, and prepares for the carnage)

Yep.

It is a normal situation in any internet forum, where people with different levels of knowledge interact.

Over time, the polarization becomes clear between people with real-world experience on the subject, aware of the processes involved in a serious and expensive project, and people who think they know how the world works, but don't understand the depth of seriousness with which things are done.

In the real world everything involves risk analysis. Nothing is done without going through revisions, without considering all aspects and so on. Flaws exist and the past is there to prove it, but those flaws are not proof that things were done carelessly. Faults are exactly faults in these serious processes with which things are done. And they are corrected.

For people who don't understand this, the process of getting a helicopter to Mars is infinitely simpler in their heads, even though they know it must be complex. They just don't know how to measure how complex it really is.

This type of discussion tends to die with the disappearance of one of the parties, or with the intervention of the moderator.
Everything is fail-proof until it fails.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1044 on: 07/30/2022 10:28 pm »
People tried to get it cut. I criticized them at the time, and they gave lame excuses back.

Iím gonna criticize them, Iím going to criticize *dismissive* pessimism, and Iím going to do it with the advantage of the luxurious certainty that hindsight affords me.
Are you the planetary science or engineering world and therefore were part of the discussions?
I am professionally part of those worlds, and did correspond about it with the program leadership, but I wasnít part of any formal group relating to it.
Would be interesting to share a beer with you sometime. Any chance you'll be at AGU?

Offline su27k

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1045 on: 07/31/2022 01:52 am »
How do you do a review and learn from things that haven't happened yet?

Deadman1204's comment was not saying that review of the past is meaningless, but that you shouldn't unfairly judge a past position based on things that hadn't happened yet. There's a reason we say "hindsight is 20/20", because we have knowledge that we didn't in the past.

His comment referred to the attitude of some that Ingenuity was a risk (because it was!) and said that it could easily have failed and wasted the first couple months of Perseverance's time on Mars.

It's good that Ingenuity has done so well, and but that it doesn't change that it was a risk.

Not sure what you're talking about, Ingenuity is successful

*snip*

How would people know that before the launch?

Urghhh, the same way LM/Boeing was confident enough about the first Atlas V/Delta IV launches to put customers' satellites on it? The same way ULA is confident about the first launch of Vulcan to put a lunar lander on it? The same way JPL is confident about the first landing of skycrane to put a billion $ rover on it? It's called engineering you know...

Obviously NASA thinks it has a reasonable chance of succeeding, and they have the paperwork to prove it, otherwise they wouldn't have included it in the mission. This is basic mission assurance stuff, not sure why this even needed to be spelled out.

Ah, yes, the desperate appeal to authority. NASA thinks it's OK, so it must be fine. They've never had a failed mission before.

Right, and saying "the scientists opposed to it, so it must be very risky" is not appeal to authority? It goes both ways. And there're literally people in this thread claiming anybody who is not a planetary scientist or spacecraft engineer can't have an opinion on this, I hope you see the irony here.

So what if it failed? It's a tech demo, it's allowed to fail, that's how you learn things. If you never fly tech demo due to fear of failure, you'll never advance the technology, and without new technology you limit your future options, there's a significant opportunity cost to that.

You can bet that if there's a failure, they'll do a thorough review to find out why it failed, just like they'd do a review to see why it succeeded, they certainly won't handwave it away by saying "Hindsight is 20:20 and always meaningless."
« Last Edit: 07/31/2022 01:54 am by su27k »

Offline Star One

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1046 on: 07/31/2022 06:44 am »
That thread is now a pretty remarquable case of "culture clash".

Between the science-driven and the SpaceX-driven (Mars) sides of NSF. Remarquably, the SpaceX side (and its "usual suspects") has invaded the science side territory - and the clash is boiling up.

A pretty remarquable case of what has gone wrong with NSF over the last decade. Still a remarquable and high quality place, but a deeply polarized one.

(Grabs popcorn, some weapons too, and prepares for the carnage)

Yep.

It is a normal situation in any internet forum, where people with different levels of knowledge interact.

Over time, the polarization becomes clear between people with real-world experience on the subject, aware of the processes involved in a serious and expensive project, and people who think they know how the world works, but don't understand the depth of seriousness with which things are done.

In the real world everything involves risk analysis. Nothing is done without going through revisions, without considering all aspects and so on. Flaws exist and the past is there to prove it, but those flaws are not proof that things were done carelessly. Faults are exactly faults in these serious processes with which things are done. And they are corrected.

For people who don't understand this, the process of getting a helicopter to Mars is infinitely simpler in their heads, even though they know it must be complex. They just don't know how to measure how complex it really is.

This type of discussion tends to die with the disappearance of one of the parties, or with the intervention of the moderator.
But is that much of a problem as it is a relatively benign type of division, and perhaps not unexpected. Itís nothing like the general polarisation of say social media so I would rather have the former than latter.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1047 on: 08/01/2022 03:58 pm »
How do you do a review and learn from things that haven't happened yet?

Deadman1204's comment was not saying that review of the past is meaningless, but that you shouldn't unfairly judge a past position based on things that hadn't happened yet. There's a reason we say "hindsight is 20/20", because we have knowledge that we didn't in the past.

His comment referred to the attitude of some that Ingenuity was a risk (because it was!) and said that it could easily have failed and wasted the first couple months of Perseverance's time on Mars.

It's good that Ingenuity has done so well, and but that it doesn't change that it was a risk.

Not sure what you're talking about, Ingenuity is successful

*snip*

How would people know that before the launch?

Urghhh, the same way LM/Boeing was confident enough about the first Atlas V/Delta IV launches to put customers' satellites on it? The same way ULA is confident about the first launch of Vulcan to put a lunar lander on it? The same way JPL is confident about the first landing of skycrane to put a billion $ rover on it? It's called engineering you know...

Obviously NASA thinks it has a reasonable chance of succeeding, and they have the paperwork to prove it, otherwise they wouldn't have included it in the mission. This is basic mission assurance stuff, not sure why this even needed to be spelled out.

Ah, yes, the desperate appeal to authority. NASA thinks it's OK, so it must be fine. They've never had a failed mission before.

"Right, and saying "the scientists opposed to it, so it must be very risky" is not appeal to authority?"

I have not appealed to any authority on that point, since the risk was objectively real. Ingenuity was made on a budget, with many off the shelf parts, using commercially available flight software, and requires the use of Perseverance as a communications relay. There's risk in every level of that.

Quote
"And there're literally people in this thread claiming anybody who is not a planetary scientist or spacecraft engineer can't have an opinion on this, I hope you see the irony here."

I am neither a planetary scientist nor a spacecraft engineer, so obviously I disagree with those people.

Quote
"So what if it failed?"

Then it would have wasted time, money, and effort on the part of the teams involved in Ingenuity and Perseverance. Which is part of the risk! Which is the entire point of this conversation, your denial that there was never any risk based on the fact that Ingenuity succeeded beyond the any reasonable expectations, and your evident position that anyone who says there was risk must be argued with.

Quote
"It's a tech demo, it's allowed to fail, that's how you learn things. If you never fly tech demo due to fear of failure, you'll never advance the technology, and without new technology you limit your future options, there's a significant opportunity cost to that."

You are right about all of that. You should have noticed that I have never said to never take any risks.

Quote
"You can bet that if there's a failure, they'll do a thorough review to find out why it failed, just like they'd do a review to see why it succeeded, they certainly won't handwave it away by saying "Hindsight is 20:20 and always meaningless."

Nice red herring argument.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2022 04:01 pm by whitelancer64 »
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline su27k

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1048 on: 08/02/2022 01:12 am »
Quote
"So what if it failed?"

Then it would have wasted time, money, and effort on the part of the teams involved in Ingenuity and Perseverance. Which is part of the risk! Which is the entire point of this conversation, your denial that there was never any risk based on the fact that Ingenuity succeeded beyond the any reasonable expectations, and your evident position that anyone who says there was risk must be argued with.

I said this several times already, that's a strawman argument created by deadman to support his nonsensical position, I never said there's "never any risk".

And no, I didn't argue with "anyone who says there was risk", since I already said several times risk is unavoidable in spaceflight. I'm arguing with people who implied just because there is a risk, this tech demo shouldn't be included in Mars 2020, that's extremely shortsighted.

Offline Perchlorate

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1049 on: 08/02/2022 08:42 am »
Had kinda thought this dumpster fire would burn itself out after 4 days, but maybe not....
a Civil Engineer, in an age of incivility...

Offline Skyway

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1050 on: 08/02/2022 01:07 pm »
But is that much of a problem as it is a relatively benign type of division, and perhaps not unexpected. Itís nothing like the general polarisation of say social media so I would rather have the former than latter.

The problem is that from the moment an experience is exposed but the other side not only ignores this experience but continues to insist on something unrealistic, and starts to argue paragraph by paragraph of the other party (practicing Ad Hominem at times) and not the argument itself, all of us here end up wasting time in a sterile debate.

A basic understanding of how risk is managed is lacking. It lacks the experience that as simple as something seems (use of off-the-shelf components, design limitations due to lack of time or budget, etc.), nothing is that simple, and everything goes through a deep risk analysis.

Absolutely nothing is risk-free, and risk management is done (roughly speaking) according to a balance between the gain if nothing goes wrong, and the potential loss if something does go wrong. Simple relationship between severity X probability. Ingenuity's risks were not managed as a single thing (Helicopter on Mars = Failure or success), but each component (electronic, structural and aerodynamic), each software, its interaction with other software, its interaction with the rest of the equipment of the mission, its interaction with the mission itself, its redundancies, its contingency plans and so many other scopes that no one here (except those who worked directly on it) can enumerate.

So relax folks. Nothing is done as simply as it is being put here in this discussion.

It's not like someone woke up one day with the idea of ​​putting a helicopter on Mars, took some off-the-shelf components and assembled the aircraft. And if it works, it worked.

Nop.
Everything is fail-proof until it fails.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1051 on: 08/02/2022 06:32 pm »
Quote
"So what if it failed?"

Then it would have wasted time, money, and effort on the part of the teams involved in Ingenuity and Perseverance. Which is part of the risk! Which is the entire point of this conversation, your denial that there was never any risk based on the fact that Ingenuity succeeded beyond the any reasonable expectations, and your evident position that anyone who says there was risk must be argued with.

I said this several times already, that's a strawman argument created by deadman to support his nonsensical position, I never said there's "never any risk".

And no, I didn't argue with "anyone who says there was risk",


You've been arguing with me because I said there was risk. Every single one of your responses to my post.

Quote

since I already said several times risk is unavoidable in spaceflight. I'm arguing with people who implied just because there is a risk, this tech demo shouldn't be included in Mars 2020, that's extremely shortsighted.

Except nobody in this thread has said that.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline ccdengr

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1052 on: 08/02/2022 07:02 pm »
I'm arguing with people who implied just because there is a risk, this tech demo shouldn't be included in Mars 2020, that's extremely shortsighted.

Except nobody in this thread has said that.
Agreed, nobody AFAIK ever said that.  What was said, by some members of the science team at least, was that the helicopter was a diversion from the main goals of the mission, and took extra resources and time without the prospect of much benefit.  (The same complaint was made about MOXIE.)  I don't think that was a completely invalid attitude, but as things worked out, it was at least a little parochial.

But nobody listens to science teams anyway :)
« Last Edit: 08/02/2022 07:04 pm by ccdengr »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1053 on: 08/02/2022 08:41 pm »
Agreed, nobody AFAIK ever said that.  What was said, by some members of the science team at least, was that the helicopter was a diversion from the main goals of the mission, and took extra resources and time without the prospect of much benefit.  (The same complaint was made about MOXIE.)  I don't think that was a completely invalid attitude, but as things worked out, it was at least a little parochial.

It was a bit more than that. My understanding is that the helicopter posed a risk to the science mission. If it did not separate from the rover, it would limit rover operations due to wheel clearance. There may also have been programmatic risk (messing with schedules and budgets), which is what you allude to with your mention of it taking resources and time. And at least early on, I believe that there was concern about preserving mass and other margin for the rover, rather than allocating it to the helicopter.

A key thing to remember is that the rover is an "operational mission" with very high priority science goals. The helicopter is a technology demonstration. The people doing an operational mission view tech demos as a distraction, and they are okay with them as long as they have no impact upon their mission. This one did. That was why there was some opposition.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1054 on: 08/22/2022 11:12 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasajpl/status/1561853057423405056

Quote
The #MarsHelicopter is back in flight! After a two-month hiatus, the rotorcraft did a short hop over the weekend so the team can check its vitals and knock some dust off the solar panel.

Learn more about why the team wanted a simple Flight 30: https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/status/398/ingenuity-team-spun-up-for-upcoming-flight-30/
« Last Edit: 08/22/2022 11:13 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1055 on: 09/07/2022 11:58 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasajpl/status/1567662224910721024

Quote
We had liftoff!

#MarsHelicopter completed a successful Flight 31 on September 6. Ingenuity flew 318 ft (97 m) west towards the Jezero river delta, in 55.6 seconds.

⬆️ Max Altitude: 33 ft (10 m)
➡️ Distance: 319 ft (97.2 m)

More: https://go.nasa.gov/3BmhGib

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1056 on: 09/20/2022 03:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasajpl/status/1572247907147087872

Quote
The #MarsHelicopter completed Flight 32 over the weekend! 🚁 The 55.3-second flight covered 93.74m at a max speed of 4.75 meters per second. Full details on the flight log: https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/#Flight-Log

Can you spot the two hints of Ingenuity in this image?

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1057 on: 09/22/2022 09:40 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasajpl/status/1573058198738989056

Quote
#MarsHelicopter update! 🚁

The rotorcraft is scheduled to take Flight 33 no earlier than Sept. 24. Its goal is to reposition itself, traveling west 111 meters with a max altitude of 10 meters. https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter/status/407/flight-33-preview-by-the-numbers/

Offline Star One

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1058 on: 09/25/2022 03:20 pm »
See Mars Helicopter Ingenuity soar for 33rd and 32nd time in timelapses:


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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1059 on: 09/27/2022 11:17 pm »
https://twitter.com/nasajpl/status/1574899348197949440

Quote
Over the weekend, #MarsHelicopter successfully completed Flight 33! The rotorcraft reached an altitude of 10 meters (33 ft) and traveled 111.24 meters (365 ft) in 55.2 seconds. If you look closely at this image, youíll see Ingenuityís leg and tiny shadow.

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