Author Topic: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII  (Read 16909 times)

Offline Phillip Clark

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50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« on: 12/04/2015 02:50 pm »
Today 50 years ago Gemini VII was launched on what would be the then-longest manned space mission: 14 days.   Commander was Frank Borman and pilot James Lovell: of course four years later this team with William Anders became the first crew to fly around the Moon.

From a UK perspective, we had the launch televised live and also for the first time we saw the landing live on television.
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane - WJ.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #1 on: 12/04/2015 03:01 pm »
14 days in that tiny spacecraft.....I still am amazed by that.  Grasshopper suits or not, that was an amazing test of human endurance. 

Offline M_Puckett

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #2 on: 12/04/2015 03:07 pm »
The first space mission of my life.  I bet my diapers smelled better than their capsule when they got back.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #3 on: 12/04/2015 03:09 pm »
Here are some pre-launch photos I found. 

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #4 on: 12/04/2015 03:14 pm »
The helmet inside the suit hood.

Offline eric z

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #5 on: 12/04/2015 03:31 pm »
 Wow- fifty years already! The debt we owe these guys is massive; that's why I love NSF.com, these great flights never get forgotten ;D  Can't wait to see the rendezvous stuff...Thanks.

Offline MattMason

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #6 on: 12/04/2015 04:57 pm »
The helmet inside the suit hood.

I'm so sure that Lovell and Bowman were instrumental in making sure that these nasty suits never saw the light of day or spaceflight again. Anyone care to spill these suit's histories and demise (hopefully by firing squad)?
"Why is the logo on the side of a rocket so important?"
"So you can find the pieces." -Jim, the Steely Eyed

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #7 on: 12/04/2015 06:29 pm »
The Gemini VII suit (I believe it was called the G7 suit, following the pressure suit numbering system, not to indicate it was for Gemini VII) was designed to be able to be removed inside a Gemini capsule.  It was made mostly of canvas with, IIRC, a thin rubberized inside coating to make it airtight.  There was no way to remove the standard G5 suit inside the tiny Gemini cockpit.  (All of the Gemini suits were made by the David Clark Company.)

If G7 had been available in time for Gemini V, it might have been used on that flight, as well.  But Gemini V had originally included EVA work, which got pulled out after the EVA was pushed forward to Gemini IV.  However, since those flights were going off every 8 to 10 weeks, by the time they were sure there would not be EVA on Gemini V, they were already committed to using the standard suits.  Heck, Conrad had to wear the EVA version of the G5 suit -- with the extra insulation layers.  Talk about uncomfortable!

The thing Borman and Lovell didn't like was not the suits -- it was the fact that, despite discussions prior to the flight, they were not, for most of the mission, both allowed to remove their suits at the same time.  So, for a few days, Lovell got to orbit in his long underwear, then he had to put his suit back on and Borman got to get comfortable.  For a short time, near the end of the flight, they were allowed to both doff the suits for a day or so, IIRC.

Those suits could hold pressure and keep the wearer alive in a vacuum for several hours, enough to ensure they could manage an emergency re-entry.  It was a demanding engineering task, designing such suits.  I bet that, even though they looked a little silly, Borman and Lovell appreciated being able to get out of them during those 2 weeks in that orbiting men's room...
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #8 on: 12/05/2015 12:28 am »
Here are a couple of photos I took of the suit back in August at the Astronaut Hall of Fame.  I didn't smell inside of it, however!

Offline edkyle99

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #9 on: 12/05/2015 01:49 pm »
Here's a Chicago Tribune story about the Gemini 7 crew tracking the launch of a Polaris missile from a submarine submerged off Cape Canaveral on December 6. 
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1965/12/07/page/14/article/gemini-7-crew-tracks-polaris-missile

James Lovell and his wife resided in the Chicago area in recent years.  He donated some artifacts to Chicago's Adler Planetarium, and helped arrange moving the Gemini 12 capsule there.  (Apollo 8 is at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry.)  Lovell grew up mostly in Milwaukee.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/05/2015 02:01 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Proponent

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #10 on: 12/05/2015 03:06 pm »
Online somewhere is a recording of Borman and Lovell discussing the missle-tracking experiment at a meeting.  Can't remember exactly where, though.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #11 on: 12/05/2015 06:31 pm »
Here's a Chicago Tribune story about the Gemini 7 crew tracking the launch of a Polaris missile from a submarine submerged off Cape Canaveral on December 6. 
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1965/12/07/page/14/article/gemini-7-crew-tracks-polaris-missile

James Lovell and his wife resided in the Chicago area in recent years.  He donated some artifacts to Chicago's Adler Planetarium, and helped arrange moving the Gemini 12 capsule there.  (Apollo 8 is at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry.)  Lovell grew up mostly in Milwaukee.

 - Ed Kyle

Yeah -- Lovell spent a lot of time in Chicago, though.  Back then, when he was growing up, you could easily hop onto the North Shore interurban and ride down to downtown Chicago for a very nominal fare.  Heck, Lovell tells a story that, when he was in high school, he wanted to build a model rocket, and went to a big chemical manufacturer's home office in downtown Chicago, asking to buy things like saltpeter, charcoal and sulfur.  The president of the company came out, asked this kid why he wanted to make gunpowder, and Lovell explained all he wanted to do was build a rocket.

The company president went and found the correct ingredients (and this was not a sales location, mind you) and counseled the young Jim Lovell on how not to appear to shopkeepers like he was a mad bomber... ;)

Another reason why the Lovells lived in the Chicago area for many years after his retirement was that his son, Jay (James), became a master chef and the family bought a restaurant in suburban Lake Forest, where Jay became the manager and head chef.  After some time, the family simply sold the restaurant to Jay, who became sole owner.  That restaurant was open up until this last spring, when it finally closed.  The spaceflight memorabilia that Jim Lovell lent to the restaurant was not auctioned off with the rest of the property, however.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline edkyle99

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #12 on: 12/06/2015 01:56 am »
Here is NASA image S65-63797, titled "Polaris, underwater launch off Florida as seen from Gemini 7", with a description "Polaris, underwater launch, missile and trail, off Florida, as seen from the Gemini 7 spacecraft during its 31st revolution of the earth".

The Polaris contrail is, I believe, visible in the upper right side of this image.  This should be a Lovell photograph.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/06/2015 01:58 am by edkyle99 »

Offline Antilope7724

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #13 on: 12/06/2015 03:31 am »
Here are links to the Gemini VII Polaris launch photo series in high resolution:


S65-63795_G07-H
*Clouds, underwater launch, missile and trail, off Florida

http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/gallery/gemini/7#S65-63795_G07-H

Full resolution
http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/data_g/G07/Hasselblad/full/S65-63795_G07-H_f.png



S65-63796_G07-H
Polaris, underwater launch, missile and trail, off Florida

http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/gallery/gemini/7#S65-63796_G07-H

Full resolution
http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/data_g/G07/Hasselblad/full/S65-63796_G07-H_f.png



S65-63797_G07-H
Polaris, underwater launch, missile and trail, off Florida

http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/gallery/gemini/7#S65-63797_G07-H

Full resolution
http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/data_g/G07/Hasselblad/full/S65-63797_G07-H_f.png



S65-63798_G07-H
Polaris, underwater launch, missile and trail, off Florida

http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/gallery/gemini/7#S65-63798_G07-H

Full resolution
http://tothemoon.ser.asu.edu/data_g/G07/Hasselblad/full/S65-63798_G07-H_f.png

Offline Proponent

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #14 on: 12/06/2015 12:21 pm »
This page has footage of the launch: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1263437643.  I can't get beyond the first 40 seconds of the video, but that's long enough to see a trail developing.
« Last Edit: 12/06/2015 12:23 pm by Proponent »

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #15 on: 12/06/2015 03:51 pm »
This page has footage of the launch: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1263437643.  I can't get beyond the first 40 seconds of the video, but that's long enough to see a trail developing.

The video won't load for me at all.  Sits and spins and then pops up a tiled selection of other videos -- mostly about Ben Franklin and getting drunk.  (??!!)

FYI.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline deaville

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #16 on: 12/07/2015 07:06 am »
The most telling conversation between the crew came on day eight when Borman turned to Lovell and said, "Jim. I think it's time!"
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until they speak.

Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #17 on: 12/13/2015 12:30 pm »
I can't believe we didn't mention the Gemini VI abort yesterday! 

That was drama!


Offline Ronpur50

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #18 on: 12/13/2015 12:43 pm »
I had never heard that VII could see the aborted liftoff from orbit as is described in the commentary.

Offline dks13827

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #19 on: 12/13/2015 03:08 pm »
I remember the mission quite well as National Geographic printed beautiful color photos of the spacecraft in orbit.  That was a first, a photo of a spacecraft in space.  As much as I ALWAYS have wanted to go into space, the thought of 14 days in a Gemini...............  I would have to think about that one.  I suppose at a younger age I might be willing to do that, of course.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #20 on: 12/13/2015 03:26 pm »
Yeah -- my favorite memory of that event was Schirra's calm, cool, "OK, we're just sitting here, breathing" comment a few seconds after the Titan's cut-off.

I have seen in various places the assertion that the VII crew radioed back "We saw it light up; we saw it shut down," but I've never been able to actually find the comment in the mission transcripts.  The one TV documentary that purported to play a clip of such a transmission obviously "re-created" it -- it wasn't in Borman's or Lovell's voice, and it had an artificial attempt to make it sound like the old Gemini air-to-ground, but which failed to do so believably.  (I wish I could recall which documentary this was -- I think it may have been "When We Left Earth: The NASA Missions," but I'm not sure -- and since Netflix doesn't have that series anymore, it's hard for me to check.)

I hate it when a documentary makes up stuff (like recording its own faked air-to-ground transmissions) and presents it as real.  The worst examples of this occur in the rather poor documentary "Moonshot," which suffers from being written by Jay Barbaree, who seems more interested in presenting his own version of the "NASA Mythos" than reporting what actually went on during the flights.  I've found Barbaree's work to be unreliable and non-factual.  More's the pity.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Apollo-phill

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #21 on: 12/13/2015 04:15 pm »
I was preparing for one of my first big spaceflight exhibitions here in UK in 1966 that was to feature - primarily - Project Apollo.

However, managed to get a , I think if I recall correctly, a 1/6th scale model of the Gemini spacecraft .

Attached is an image of the photo I took on my little Kodak Brownie  camera    :)

In the background you will also see the photo panels I did showing Apollo program as it was envisaged and stood at that time.

oh yes ! Just reminded myself. I'll be showing a Gemini prop valve and a couple of Mercury items in February 2016 at a spaceflight exhibition I'm doing here in UK. [ Possibly one of my last "biggies"   :-\ ]

Phill Parker
UK

Offline Proponent

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #22 on: 12/14/2015 10:03 am »
This page has footage of the launch: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1263437643.  I can't get beyond the first 40 seconds of the video, but that's long enough to see a trail developing.

The video won't load for me at all.  Sits and spins and then pops up a tiled selection of other videos -- mostly about Ben Franklin and getting drunk.  (??!!)

FYI.

Hmmm..., I don't know.  At the moment it's working just fine for me, complete with Borman's and Lovell's  humorous commentary.  Screenshot attached.  By the way, I believe this is the audio recording of Borman and Lovell discussing the Polaris launch that I referred to upthread.
« Last Edit: 12/14/2015 10:28 am by Proponent »

Offline Proponent

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #23 on: 12/14/2015 10:25 am »
I had never heard that VII could see the aborted liftoff from orbit as is described in the commentary.

???  At 10:32 in you can hear the crew telling capcom Elliot See that they did not see the ignition, despite having been perfectly positioned

Online gwiz

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #24 on: 12/14/2015 12:55 pm »
From the Gemini VII transcript:
188:35:33 CC We were wondering if you saw the ignition at the Cape?
188:35:40 P Negative. The Cape was open when we went over it and we were in fine position for photography, but we never saw the ignition. We were waiting for the light.

Offline catdlr

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #25 on: 08/13/2022 08:52 am »
....bump for an old training video



Quote
Gemini 7 - Prime Crew/BU Crew Training

Archive footage of the crews of Gemini 7 training for emergency pad egress and Gemini simulator training - Audio is taken from the NBC coverage of the launch.

Video courtesy NASA
Audio NBC
« Last Edit: 08/13/2022 08:52 am by catdlr »
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Offline dandy_don

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #26 on: 08/14/2022 12:18 pm »
Great bump!

Good to see Ed White in something other than Apollo 1.   

Being backup for Gemini 7 should have put White-Collins in line for Gemini 10 according to Deke's system.   I have always wondered why White was bumped from a command spot on Gemini 10 into Apollo 1.    Rather than White-Collins,  Gemini 10 became Young-Collins.    Demotion?  Promotion?  Lateral move?

Of course White went to Apollo 1 and Young to Apollo 10.   Interestingly both as CMPs. 

Online TJL

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #27 on: 08/14/2022 03:23 pm »
Great bump!

Good to see Ed White in something other than Apollo 1.   

Being backup for Gemini 7 should have put White-Collins in line for Gemini 10 according to Deke's system.   I have always wondered why White was bumped from a command spot on Gemini 10 into Apollo 1.    Rather than White-Collins,  Gemini 10 became Young-Collins.    Demotion?  Promotion?  Lateral move?

Of course White went to Apollo 1 and Young to Apollo 10.   Interestingly both as CMPs. 

Here are my thoughts on the Gemini 10 assignment.
Young, who was on BU crew for Gemini 6 was in line to command Gemini 9.
When Slayton re-assigned Elliot See from pilot of GT-8 to Command Pilot of GT-9, it bumped John Young back one flight...to GT-10.
That in turn "bumped" Ed White to Apollo 1 position.

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #28 on: 08/14/2022 05:07 pm »
Highly unlikely

Offline dandy_don

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #29 on: 08/15/2022 02:41 pm »


Here are my thoughts on the Gemini 10 assignment.
Young, who was on BU crew for Gemini 6 was in line to command Gemini 9.
When Slayton re-assigned Elliot See from pilot of GT-8 to Command Pilot of GT-9, it bumped John Young back one flight...to GT-10.
That in turn "bumped" Ed White to Apollo 1 position.

If Young got bumped to GT-10, why wasn't White similarly bumped from GT-10 to GT-11?    Going from a command spot on a Gemini flight to CMP on Apollo seems like a demotion to me.    Especially given that Pete Conrad commanded GT-11 and was then given command of Apollo 12. 

Have always wondered what Ed White's next assignment would have been if Apollo 1 had been a success.
« Last Edit: 08/15/2022 02:42 pm by dandy_don »

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #30 on: 08/15/2022 06:53 pm »
Look, I think that after finishing stints as the Gemini 6 backup command pilot, Grissom was ticketed for Apollo.  White, after being the backup command pilot for Gemini 7 was ticketed for Apollo. If memory serves me correctly, Grissom, White and Eisle, the ORIGINAL Apollo 1 crew was picked by Slayton in January 1966. Grissom and White were never "ticketed to rotate to any further Gemini crews because by the end of December 1965, they were slated to move to Apollo.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1#:~:text=Director%20of%20Flight%20Crew%20Operations%20Deke%20Slayton%20selected,and%20had%20to%20undergo%20surgery%20on%20January%2027.)

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #31 on: 08/15/2022 06:59 pm »


Have always wondered what Ed White's next assignment would have been if Apollo 1 had been a success.
[/quote]

According to the Deke Slayton biography (DEKE) Slayton had no plans to use White in an Apollo lunar mission. White was bound for what was called Apollo applications if Apollo 1 had have been successful

Offline dandy_don

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #32 on: 08/16/2022 02:18 pm »
Look, I think that after finishing stints as the Gemini 6 backup command pilot, Grissom was ticketed for Apollo.  White, after being the backup command pilot for Gemini 7 was ticketed for Apollo. If memory serves me correctly, Grissom, White and Eisle, the ORIGINAL Apollo 1 crew was picked by Slayton in January 1966. Grissom and White were never "ticketed to rotate to any further Gemini crews because by the end of December 1965, they were slated to move to Apollo.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1#:~:text=Director%20of%20Flight%20Crew%20Operations%20Deke%20Slayton%20selected,and%20had%20to%20undergo%20surgery%20on%20January%2027.)

A Gemini commander never was given another Gemini flight which explains Grissom moving on to Apollo.   

Each of the first 5 Gemini flights had a "New Nine" astronaut as pilot.   Young-White-Conrad-Stafford-Lovell.   All of them were given a Gemini command flight except White.   

If it is true that Deke saw no role for White after Apollo 1, why was that?   White seemed to be universally liked and respected and performed well as America's first spacewalker. 

Offline JoeFromRIUSA

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #33 on: 08/17/2022 11:12 am »
I suggest that you wait and see if the author of DEKE, Michael Cassutt chimes in or failing that, you might purchase Slayton's biography written by Michael called Deke. In the book however, there was no detailing Slayton's opinion of White's future other than him saying that his future plans for White and Chafee did not include Apollo lunar missions. I don't think going to a medium to channel the spirit of Mr Slayton will be very effective

Offline Big RI Joe

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #34 on: 08/27/2022 08:13 pm »
There is nothing in DEKE that would lead one to believe that Slayton felt Chaffee and White were "intellectual lightweights" That type of slander is malicious, mendacious, and totally uncalled for. (Just channeled my inner "Jim")

Offline catdlr

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #35 on: 08/28/2022 09:32 am »
Gemini 7 - Launch, Crowd, Cockpit Titan stage station keeping, Crew, Gemini Program, Borman, Lovell

Quote
Film sequences of Gemini VII crew (Borman, Lovell), crowds watching the launch and cockpit views of Gemini station keeping with the Titan II upper stage. Ambient sounds were recreated (footage was silent) and used along with historical narration and mission audio.

Some footage was AI upscaled to high-definition using Topaz AI. This recovers some detail while removing compression artifacts and noise. Colors were corrected and matched between cameras and segments.

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline Big RI Joe

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Re: 50 Years ago -Gemini VII
« Reply #36 on: 08/28/2022 02:19 pm »
Gemini 7 - Launch, Crowd, Cockpit Titan stage station keeping, Crew, Gemini Program, Borman, Lovell

Quote
Film sequences of Gemini VII crew (Borman, Lovell), crowds watching the launch and cockpit views of Gemini station keeping with the Titan II upper stage. Ambient sounds were recreated (footage was silent) and used along with historical narration and mission audio.

Some footage was AI upscaled to high-definition using Topaz AI. This recovers some detail while removing compression artifacts and noise. Colors were corrected and matched between cameras and segments.


There is nothing in DEKE that would lead one to believe that Slayton felt Chaffee and White were "intellectual lightweights" That type of slander is malicious, mendacious, and totally uncalled for. (Just channeled my inner "Jim")

Perhaps I over-dramatized it a little

It's not the first time

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