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Robotic Spacecraft (Astronomy, Planetary, Earth, Solar/Heliophysics) => Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) and Mars 2020 Rover Section => Topic started by: redliox on 08/08/2015 03:20 am

Title: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 08/08/2015 03:20 am
Putting up a thread to dedicate toward the 2020 Rover plans.

First bit of fresh news on the rover: they've narrowed down the landing sites to the top 8 now, with some surprising choices: http://news.sciencemag.org/space/2015/08/mars-scientists-tap-ancient-river-deltas-and-hot-springs-promising-targets-2020-rover?rss=1 (http://news.sciencemag.org/space/2015/08/mars-scientists-tap-ancient-river-deltas-and-hot-springs-promising-targets-2020-rover?rss=1)
I also credit Van Kane for blogging this on his site too: http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2015/08/list-of-2020-rover-landing-sites-narrow.html

Of the eight, three stand out to me: Jezsero Crater, Columbia Hills, Melas Chasm.  Any of those 3 would excite me.  The crater (which is actually one of 4 sites near Isidis Basin) seems to be a potential gold mine akin to Gale and Gusev Craters with river channels intermingling with an ancient crater lake.  Columbia Hills, i.e. Gusev Crater, has been reconsidered thanks to Spirit's discoveries relating to hydrothermal activity and that there are areas of interest that were just beyond Spirit's reach worth revisiting.  Melas Chasm, frankly, because it is part of Valles Marineris, and bound to be rich in both geologic and hydrological activity, not to mention being a prominent region of Mars not yet explored 'on foot.'

Use this thread to add news directly tied to the 2020 Rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: NovaSilisko on 08/08/2015 04:43 am
I wonder what the real chances are of an extended mission jaunt to Spirit (or its landing hardware) if M2020 does land near Columbia Hills, or even a piece removed from it and put in a sample canister (assuming it could be removed easily). I can dream...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 08/08/2015 09:55 am
I wonder what the real chances are of an extended mission jaunt to Spirit (or its landing hardware) if M2020 does land near Columbia Hills, or even a piece removed from it and put in a sample canister (assuming it could be removed easily). I can dream...

I don't think they'd 'sample' Spirit (and by that I mean a piece like you suggest), although a future human crew would be better able to do that; most likely it'd be a visual inspection although they might prefer it from a distance since Spirit did end up stuck in sand.  I included a document from MEPAG that sums up both the PR and scientific reasons for revisiting Gusev.  Had Spirit been able to continue operating for perhaps a further year (had it been mobile) it could have reached a spot that's essentially a fossilized hydrothermal vent with volcanic terrain adjacent.  Even after several years Spirit apparently only scratched the potential science within Gusev.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 08/08/2015 10:28 am
Just a heads up that I did add a news story from AW in the existing thread this week about sample preservation strategies, unfortunately it requires registration to read in full.

Anyway that's just the explanation for posting this again.

http://m.aviationweek.com/space/mars-2020-mulls-sample-preservation-strategies
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 11/20/2015 05:24 pm
Elachi Touts Helicopter Scout for Mars Sample-Caching Rover

Quote
WASHINGTON — The outgoing director of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory on Nov. 19 floated the idea of sending a small scout helicopter to the red planet along with the Mars 2020 sample caching rover headed there in 2020.

“It’s not approved for that mission yet, but we are doing the technology which will enable us to actually have a drone which will fly around the rover, survey the area in front of it and enable the rover to basically drive more efficiently,” JPL Director Charles Elachi said after a luncheon speech on Capitol Hill hosted by the Space Transportation Association. “So you’ll have a drone taking the survey and sending the data to the rover and having the rover avoid hazards.”

JPL has been touting its Mars Helicopter since January but has not before linked it to any particular mission. The drone would be solar powered and capable of flying for two to three minutes a day, according to a video JPL uploaded to youtube earlier this year.

A scouting drone could help the Mars 2020 rover avoid the sort of mission-ending misstep that got the smaller Spirit rover — the twin of the still-operational Opportunity rover — stuck in martian sand in 2009.

http://spacenews.com/elachi-touts-helicopter-scout-for-mars-sample-caching-rover/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2015 05:47 pm
Elachi Touts Helicopter Scout for Mars Sample-Caching Rover

http://spacenews.com/elachi-touts-helicopter-scout-for-mars-sample-caching-rover/

This would be cool, although I've read elsewhere that the helicopter would never come close to the rover for safety reasons, limiting the coolness of the shots (but not limiting the value to scout terrain up ahead).  I also seem to remember an estimated price tag of ~$20M, so not something you decide to do just because its cool.

I wonder if future rovers might carry cubesat-scale stations that could be left for long term stationary observations or if helicopters might be used as independent research vehicles (essentially flying cubesats).  It would be nice to fly a helicopter up the river bed that leads into Gale Crater, as an example, for high resolution ground truthing.  Miniaturization opens interesting possibilities. 

I remember that one Mars related SAG stated that all future orbiters should reserve mass to carry a few cubesats for release into orbit.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 11/20/2015 06:05 pm

Elachi Touts Helicopter Scout for Mars Sample-Caching Rover

http://spacenews.com/elachi-touts-helicopter-scout-for-mars-sample-caching-rover/

This would be cool, although I've read elsewhere that the helicopter would never come close to the rover for safety reasons, limiting the coolness of the shots (but not limiting the value to scout terrain up ahead).  I also seem to remember an estimated price tag of ~$20M, so not something you decide to do just because its cool.

I wonder if future rovers might carry cubesat-scale stations that could be left for long term stationary observations or if helicopters might be used as independent research vehicles (essentially flying cubesats).  It would be nice to fly a helicopter up the river bed that leads into Gale Crater, as an example, for high resolution ground truthing.  Miniaturization opens interesting possibilities. 

I remember that one Mars related SAG stated that all future orbiters should reserve mass to carry a few cubesats for release into orbit.

For some reason I thought the helicopter would be able to attach itself to the rover which would then release it as when needed. But from what you said that obviously isn't the case.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2015 06:12 pm
For some reason I thought the helicopter would be able to attach itself to the rover which would then release it as when needed. But from what you said that obviously isn't the case.

My understanding is that the rover arm would place the 'copter on the ground.  After the rover has moved a safe distance away, the flights would start.  The two would always be kept well apart.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/20/2015 06:20 pm
For some reason I thought the helicopter would be able to attach itself to the rover which would then release it as when needed. But from what you said that obviously isn't the case.

I've heard about this concept several times now.  I likewise thought it'd return to the rover periodically as well.  If it's totally independent, I'd be concerned if the device could stay warm and alive through the Martian night, or able to keep up with the parent rover if it's dependent on it for communication like Sojourner was with Pathfinder.  If it can fly on Mars it'd be a good idea so long as it can operate for a week or better which is what I'm doubting specifically; perhaps it could be useful as an engineering test and scout during the rover's early days although I suspect it may be a short-lived addition.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2015 06:30 pm
For some reason I thought the helicopter would be able to attach itself to the rover which would then release it as when needed. But from what you said that obviously isn't the case.

I've heard about this concept several times now.  I likewise thought it'd return to the rover periodically as well.  If it's totally independent, I'd be concerned if the device could stay warm and alive through the Martian night, or able to keep up with the parent rover if it's dependent on it for communication like Sojourner was with Pathfinder.  If it can fly on Mars it'd be a good idea so long as it can operate for a week or better which is what I'm doubting specifically; perhaps it could be useful as an engineering test and scout during the rover's early days although I suspect it may be a short-lived addition.
They may be planning to put one or more RHUs in the box to keep it warm.  Good use for all that degraded Pu-238 perhaps. 

My guess is that it would take a few days to recharge between flights.  It likely flies so much faster than the rover drives that this wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 11/20/2015 06:50 pm
For some reason I thought the helicopter would be able to attach itself to the rover which would then release it as when needed. But from what you said that obviously isn't the case.

I've heard about this concept several times now.  I likewise thought it'd return to the rover periodically as well.  If it's totally independent, I'd be concerned if the device could stay warm and alive through the Martian night, or able to keep up with the parent rover if it's dependent on it for communication like Sojourner was with Pathfinder.  If it can fly on Mars it'd be a good idea so long as it can operate for a week or better which is what I'm doubting specifically; perhaps it could be useful as an engineering test and scout during the rover's early days although I suspect it may be a short-lived addition.
They may be planning to put one or more RHUs in the box to keep it warm.  Good use for all that degraded Pu-238 perhaps. 

My guess is that it would take a few days to recharge between flights.  It likely flies so much faster than the rover drives that this wouldn't be a problem.

Wouldn't it make for a simpler vehicle if it was just able to plug itself into the rover when it needed to?

By the way what's the current thinking of if this is going to hit the 2020 launch window & what with all the fuss about its engine supply will it still be baselined for an Atlas V launch?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2015 06:55 pm
Wouldn't it make for a simpler vehicle if it was just able to plug itself into the rover when it needed to?

By the way what's the current thinking of if this is going to hit the 2020 launch window & what with all the fuss about its engine supply will it still be baselined for an Atlas V launch?

Think of the fun of having a copter with rapidly spinning blades landing on the rover with a dust devil hits and those blades start slapping everything on the deck and masts.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: baldusi on 11/20/2015 07:05 pm
Can they actually fly an helicopter with just 0.02Bar?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2015 07:14 pm
Can they actually fly an helicopter with just 0.02Bar?
Apparently.  Look at the size of those blades (which I believe would counter rotate).  Takes a lot of surface to bite on enough air for lift.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 11/20/2015 07:58 pm
Elachi Touts Helicopter Scout for Mars Sample-Caching Rover


There is no mission in existence that JPL cannot figure out how to make more expensive.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/23/2015 07:18 am
I don't think they'd 'sample' Spirit (and by that I mean a piece like you suggest), although a future human crew would be better able to do that; most likely it'd be a visual inspection although they might prefer it from a distance since Spirit did end up stuck in sand.  I included a document from MEPAG that sums up both the PR and scientific reasons for revisiting Gusev.  Had Spirit been able to continue operating for perhaps a further year (had it been mobile) it could have reached a spot that's essentially a fossilized hydrothermal vent with volcanic terrain adjacent.  Even after several years Spirit apparently only scratched the potential science within Gusev.

Actually Spirit did reach and documented a hydrothermal system in the Home Plate area.  Feature include abundant opaline silica, possible organic matter, and suggested geyserite (microbial structures). 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: TrevorMonty on 11/23/2015 08:40 am
Can they actually fly an helicopter with just 0.02Bar?

Yes.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/details.php?id=1355

(Yet there is plenty of natural propulsion omnipresent you can use with the right catalysts for 20-40 gram scaled nano aerovehicles - you don't need ISRU, and they're easier to 3-axis stabilize.)
Has 3minute flight time per day with small solar panel. Can survive the mars night on its own. 500m range.
 Needs to be total automous with hazard avoidance landing system. I'm guessing this benefits from lunar navigation technology NASA have been working.

No mention of comms but is not likely to very far from rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: TrevorMonty on 11/23/2015 08:45 am
A small lander with one of the drones could survey a large area. Especially if lander can do a few hops and place its self close area of interest.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/23/2015 10:05 am
Has 3minute flight time per day with small solar panel. Can survive the mars night on its own. 500m range.
 Needs to be total automous with hazard avoidance landing system. I'm guessing this benefits from lunar navigation technology NASA have been working.

No mention of comms but is not likely to very far from rover.

So, if used, these helicopter will need help from the rover as a relay.  At least it is promising that they won't need recharging.  Furthermore, considering the rover's pace is painfully slow by human standards a 3 minute flight might be enough to keep pace and relay images to plan the rover's next set of weekly moves.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/09/2016 01:54 pm
Fully funded in the new budget, plus an extra $10 million for the next Mars mission, whatever that is.

Although the president's budget in his last year in office means little, I think it's fair to say that this will probably go through without much change.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 02/15/2016 05:24 pm
This looks like an interesting addition to the rover instruments ....

"...A new hope for a microphone on Mars: Enhancing Mars 2020 science with sound..."


http://www.planetary.org/blogs/bruce-betts/2016/0215-mars-2020-microphone.html


Total frivolous idea....why not add a voice clip on a chip that would play a recorded human voice to hear what that might sound like on Mars ??....yeah, I know, no value....




Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: OxCartMark on 02/23/2016 03:20 pm
I don't see a helicopter with that much blade area and apparent mass going anywhere in that atmosphere.  And if it were to be significantly more lightly built with a significantly lower wing loading I'd think it would be unable to weather windstorms unless maybe it were to be secured to the rover and even then I'd think it would need to be in an enclosed hanger.  It seems to me that you could make the helicopter lighter by powering it from the rover (which also allows more frequent flights) rather than putting the weight of solar power collection on the helicopter but they do show a small solar collector at the top. 

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 02/23/2016 04:02 pm
I don't see a helicopter with that much blade area and apparent mass going anywhere in that atmosphere.  And if it were to be significantly more lightly built with a significantly lower wing loading I'd think it would be unable to weather windstorms unless maybe it were to be secured to the rover and even then I'd think it would need to be in an enclosed hanger.  It seems to me that you could make the helicopter lighter by powering it from the rover (which also allows more frequent flights) rather than putting the weight of solar power collection on the helicopter but they do show a small solar collector at the top.
I trust that JPL's engineers are able to model and test whether the vehicle can fly.

One key concern is that the helicopter could hit the rover and damage it.  I've read that if it is carried, it would be placed on the surface with the arm.  Once the rover drove a good distance away, then the copter would be flown but kept always at a good distance. 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/23/2016 05:04 pm
I don't see a helicopter with that much blade area and apparent mass going anywhere in that atmosphere.  And if it were to be significantly more lightly built with a significantly lower wing loading I'd think it would be unable to weather windstorms unless maybe it were to be secured to the rover and even then I'd think it would need to be in an enclosed hanger.  It seems to me that you could make the helicopter lighter by powering it from the rover (which also allows more frequent flights) rather than putting the weight of solar power collection on the helicopter but they do show a small solar collector at the top.
I trust that JPL's engineers are able to model and test whether the vehicle can fly.

Been done.  I've seen a test of a copter of the size and blade area being discussed, placed in a vacuum chamber pumped down to Martian atmospheric pressure.  Flies just fine.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 04/13/2016 06:55 pm
Dr. John Grant presented a talk, "New Discoveries by Rovers on Mars" today in the Exploring the Planets gallery at the National Air and Space Museum.  (It's part of a series of talks called "Ask An Expert.")

During Q&A, I asked how the engineering and operations planning for the Mars 2020 rover are influenced by the experience gained through Curiosity.

He mentioned that planning and balancing the science observations, sample collection, and traverses have benefited greatly from the experience of operating Curiosity.

Example: The rover could gather/cache a great number of samples from a variety of locations, but that would not leave time for other science observations.

He also mentioned that science and/or sample sites must be a reasonable distance from the landing site, which in turn depends on the location of the landing ellipse.

No Mars-shattering revelations, but interesting none-the-less.

(John Grant was/is involved with Sprit and Opportunity, MRO/HiRise, and Curiosity.)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 04/13/2016 09:01 pm
Dr. John Grant presented a talk, "New Discoveries by Rovers on Mars" today in the Exploring the Planets gallery at the National Air and Space Museum.  (It's part of a series of talks called "Ask An Expert.")


(John Grant was/is involved with Sprit and Opportunity, MRO/HiRise, and Curiosity.)

John was also heavily involved in Curiosity landing site selection. He might have been co-chair of the team. You can probably find one of his papers on it somewhere. I've had him on one of my committees in the past, and I've seen him talk. If I remember correctly, the MSL/Curiosity site selection team made selections based upon science, but the final landing site determination was ultimately an engineering decision. The reason is that the most important thing was to land safely, not science; science is pointless if the rover is in little pieces. John is probably involved in Mars 2020 landing site selection, which is going to be FAR more interesting and complex than MSL.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: savuporo on 04/13/2016 09:02 pm
From the last updates it seemed like TRN was baselined along with parachute range trigger. Has the potential to make landing ellipse a lot smaller,  from 25x20 km to as small as 13x7
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/02/2016 10:39 pm
A write up of the latest contract awards:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/05/2020-mars-rover-momentum-contract-awards/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hotblack Desiato on 05/02/2016 11:23 pm
Very interesting article.

I'm glad that they added an robotic arm. Previous news about the 2020 rover stated, that there will be no robotic arm that can actually grab samples and either analyze it in sito or put them into processing systems on board. That's like the last 30cm from the rover to the surface.

I hope, that they learn from the current problems with the wheels of Curiosity.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 05/02/2016 11:30 pm
"I'm glad that they added an robotic arm. Previous news about the 2020 rover stated, that there will be no robotic arm that can actually grab samples and either analyze it in sito or put them into processing systems on board. That's like the last 30cm from the rover to the surface."

No, you are thinking of the Chinese Chang'E 4 lunar farside rover.  Mars 2020 was always going to have an arm.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hotblack Desiato on 05/03/2016 12:08 am
okay, I guess, I know where the error happened.

I think I've read it on an austrian newspaper, and they are not always the best at translating things.

http://spacenews.com/nasas-mars-2020-rover-to-dig-and-ditch-its-samples/

here, the article says "The dig-and-ditch approach also means Mars 2020 will not need a sophisticated, and massive, robotic arm to do the delicate work of putting tiny samples into a custom-made canister."

I could imagine, that this turned into "has no robotic arm"...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/10/2016 11:26 pm
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/10/2016 11:41 pm
Potential biosignatures identified?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: notsorandom on 05/11/2016 02:10 am
Potential biosignatures identified?
Spirit observed some mineral fomations that looked like some seen here on Earth. Still not sure if the ones here on Earth were made by life though.
'Cauliflower' Silica Formations on Mars: Evidence of Ancient Life?
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=91183
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/11/2016 03:10 am

Which meeting are these slides from?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/11/2016 05:58 am
Potential biosignatures identified?
Spirit observed some mineral fomations that looked like some seen here on Earth. Still not sure if the ones here on Earth were made by life though.
'Cauliflower' Silica Formations on Mars: Evidence of Ancient Life?
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=91183

Thank you. Wondered if there was some big announcement I had missed.:)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/11/2016 05:55 pm
Looking at this slide from the presentation Blackstar posted earlier one can see the variety of options the 2020 team is apparently choosing.  The double container situation is off the list completely.

I'm the least fond of the adaptable cache-B option, but assuming the 'small container' can hold better than the 20 minimum I could see merit in the hybrid cache.  Otherwise, I'm curious to see if they're built a model for the container the rover could use and know how the sampling arm would interact with it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/11/2016 05:59 pm
They've pretty much decided on three caches of about 10 samples each.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/11/2016 06:09 pm
They've pretty much decided on three caches of about 10 samples each.

Sounds sensible.  I'm going to assume even if they decide to include a container capsule that 2 out of those 3 caches would inherently be 'naked' since the container would be traveling with the rover?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/11/2016 07:53 pm
The early approach was a single container with up to 30+ individual sample tubes. Then they discussed the possibility of dropping out the sample tubes perhaps in groups of three along the rover track. The current approach involves up to three collected caches--three containers of approximately 10 tubes apiece--deposited to a single site located between two collection areas.

They would land, go to sample collection area 1 and fill up the first container. Then they would rove toward sample collection area 2 and just before they reach it, they would set the first container on the ground at a good retrieval area.

Then the rover would go into sample collection area 2 and fill up the second container. Then it would come out, go to the retrieval area, and set container #2 alongside container #1.

Then it would go off to collect additional samples. This could be in sample area 1 or 2 or a new area or whatever they decide based upon what they have learned while doing the first two sets.

The reason for doing this is because it offloads risk from the rover. You don't want to fill up the rover with most of your samples and then have it get stuck in a sand pit or roll off a crater. As soon as they set down the first full container, they can then be positive that they have a safe set of samples even if the rover suffers a problem.

Plus, keep in mind that they learn more as the mission progresses, so they should know how to recognize and collect better samples later in the mission than earlier.

 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: NovaSilisko on 05/11/2016 08:01 pm
Here's something that's occured to me recently: If Mars 2020 is still functioning after all the samples have been gathered, couldn't it become in effect its own fetch rover? Land a static MAV, and have M2020 retrace its steps, pick up the sample canisters, and deliver them to the MAV? It seems like if that could be done, it would be a major reduction in costs since you no longer need to develop a separate fetch rover. But of course there is inherent risk to it, since you'd be relying on old hardware.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/11/2016 10:26 pm
Here's something that's occured to me recently: If Mars 2020 is still functioning after all the samples have been gathered, couldn't it become in effect its own fetch rover?

Possibly, although earlier Blackstar pointed out the whole point of a cache was to remove risk from the rover.  Engineers might argue this...although a more practical, specific argument would be that the 2020 rover might not be anywhere near the caches when the MSR lander arrives.  Functional or not, it would be doing other things while MSR focuses on loading the caches into itself.  Assuming it's as successful as Opportunity, most likely all it could do would be to watch the MSR landing and ascent from afar.

It would be interesting, on the other hand, to see 2 rovers strolling alongside each other with one functioning as a backup for the other.  This would only happen if 2020 happens to be within a kilometer of where it could be useful...and moreso if NASA management nudges JPL to do so...the odds of which are probably low if 2020 gets an extended life of exploration beyond its cache collection phase.

I'd give it a 1-in-4 chance that the 2020 rover directly helps MSR retrieve its own samples, mainly because it would technically be at the landing site but also likely too far away and engaged in extended science.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/12/2016 01:46 am
Here's something that's occured to me recently: If Mars 2020 is still functioning after all the samples have been gathered, couldn't it become in effect its own fetch rover? Land a static MAV, and have M2020 retrace its steps, pick up the sample canisters, and deliver them to the MAV? It seems like if that could be done, it would be a major reduction in costs since you no longer need to develop a separate fetch rover. But of course there is inherent risk to it, since you'd be relying on old hardware.

No. There is simply no way to design a mission based upon the assumption that the 2020 rover will still be operational when the return vehicle gets there.

Think of it like this: the 2020 rover will launch in 2020, arrive in 2021 and be designed to last a Martian year, meaning 2023. The next Mars launch window opens in 2022, reaching Mars in 2023--right at the time that the 2020 rover has reached its design life. Now of course Mars 2020 is going to last beyond its design lifetime. But how long? The next window is 2024, arrival in 2025. Will the Mars 2020 rover be alive then, twice its design lifetime?

Now you also have to figure in programmatic issues--the retrieval mission is going to be expensive. And complicated. And it has to be approved (it is not currently approved). So when is it going to get approved and built? Not for the 2022 window--it is already too late. It's also probably too late for the 2024 window. And keep in mind that the retrieval mission has not been prioritized by the planetary decadal survey. The next decadal will not be produced until around 2021, and if it recommends a retrieval mission as a top priority, that mission will not happen until late in the 2020s.

These things take time, and because of that the mission designers cannot rely upon the Mars 2020 mission to be operational when the retrieval mission gets there.

Launch windows are here:

http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EMa.htm

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/12/2016 03:26 am
As I understand it, the 2020 rover will not be carrying a canister to hold the sample tubes, so it could not act as the fetch rover.

One advantage of the 2020 plan is that it can cache a larger set up sample tubes (at multiple places) than would be returned.  Scientists on Earth can then take years to debate which sample tubes would be retrieved.  As I understand it, it was difficult to design a canister that would would both securely hold the sample tubes and allow them to be ejected.  This way, specific tubes can be selected and others rejected once the full set have been collected and all the data is analyzed.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: MP99 on 05/12/2016 07:39 am


Wouldn't it make for a simpler vehicle if it was just able to plug itself into the rover when it needed to?

By the way what's the current thinking of if this is going to hit the 2020 launch window & what with all the fuss about its engine supply will it still be baselined for an Atlas V launch?

Think of the fun of having a copter with rapidly spinning blades landing on the rover with a dust devil hits and those blades start slapping everything on the deck and masts.

If the rover had solar panels, then hovering over the rover should clear dust off the panels?

But, it's solely powered by MMRTG, I understand?

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/12/2016 01:43 pm
Think of the fun of having a copter with rapidly spinning blades landing on the rover with a dust devil hits and those blades start slapping everything on the deck and masts.
If the rover had solar panels, then hovering over the rover should clear dust off the panels?
If the copter/drone is included with the 2020 rover, the engineers are very worried about the drone hitting and damaging the rover.  The operational scenario I read had the rover arm depositing the drone on the ground.  Once the rover had moved a substantial distance away, the drone would begin to operate, but never come close to the rover (we are probably talking out tens to a couple of hundred meters).  So no dust cleaning and no aerial shots of the rover on the surface.   :(
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/12/2016 04:42 pm
They should put the rover down near some Martian caves and then fly the copter inside. Even if it is only a little way in surely it would be worth it scientifically?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/12/2016 05:17 pm
They should put the rover down near some Martian caves and then fly the copter inside. Even if it is only a little way in surely it would be worth it scientifically?

That's a bit far fetched would be a polite way to put it.  NASA might look into the cave mouth from outside, but they would not drive a roughly billion dollar rover into a spot where they might lose radio contact.  The copter might not be able to do much, especially if it doesn't have a light to guide it in, nor would its team want to risk losing contact either.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/12/2016 05:38 pm
They should put the rover down near some Martian caves and then fly the copter inside. Even if it is only a little way in surely it would be worth it scientifically?

That's a bit far fetched would be a polite way to put it.  NASA might look into the cave mouth from outside, but they would not drive a roughly billion dollar rover into a spot where they might lose radio contact.  The copter might not be able to do much, especially if it doesn't have a light to guide it in, nor would its team want to risk losing contact either.
But I would think the caves must be high priority targets, being completely unexplored and therefore worth a little risk.

Something else maybe that will have to be left to Space X then.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/12/2016 06:10 pm
They should put the rover down near some Martian caves and then fly the copter inside. Even if it is only a little way in surely it would be worth it scientifically?

That's a bit far fetched would be a polite way to put it.  NASA might look into the cave mouth from outside, but they would not drive a roughly billion dollar rover into a spot where they might lose radio contact.  The copter might not be able to do much, especially if it doesn't have a light to guide it in, nor would its team want to risk losing contact either.
But I would think the caves must be high priority targets, being completely unexplored and therefore worth a little risk.

Something else maybe that will have to be left to Space X then.

As was proposed on another thread, NASA should just stop doing all this stuff because Elon's going to do it anyway.

Also: unicorns.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/12/2016 07:32 pm
They should put the rover down near some Martian caves and then fly the copter inside. Even if it is only a little way in surely it would be worth it scientifically?

That's a bit far fetched would be a polite way to put it.  NASA might look into the cave mouth from outside, but they would not drive a roughly billion dollar rover into a spot where they might lose radio contact.  The copter might not be able to do much, especially if it doesn't have a light to guide it in, nor would its team want to risk losing contact either.
But I would think the caves must be high priority targets, being completely unexplored and therefore worth a little risk.

Something else maybe that will have to be left to Space X then.

As was proposed on another thread, NASA should just stop doing all this stuff because Elon's going to do it anyway.

Also: unicorns.

Kind of my point maybe.;)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: NovaSilisko on 05/13/2016 04:44 am
Kind of my point maybe.;)

Still not actually certain whether you're serious or not...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/13/2016 01:06 pm
Kind of my point maybe.;)

Still not actually certain whether you're serious or not...

Unicorns are deadly serious.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/13/2016 10:16 pm
Still not actually certain whether you're serious or not...

Unicorns are deadly serious.

You're giving me flashbacks of the killer unicorn from "Cabin In The Woods" now 'Star  :P ;)

Getting closer to topic, so the rover is most likely going to set down 3 caches of samples it seems?  Is there going to be a capsule anymore?  If it's going to be caches I'd like to know what they're going to try to do to protect or cluster the tubes together without a capsule.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/13/2016 10:21 pm
Getting closer to topic, so the rover is most likely going to set down 3 caches of samples it seems?  Is there going to be a capsule anymore?  If it's going to be caches I'd like to know what they're going to try to do to protect or cluster the tubes together without a capsule.
My understanding is that they are simply laying the tubes on the ground (presumably they are uniquely marked so a subsequent rover can retrieve just the ones desired).  There have been concerns about the effects of solar heating, so perhaps they'll put them in the shadow of a large rock.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/14/2016 02:02 am
Getting closer to topic, so the rover is most likely going to set down 3 caches of samples it seems?  Is there going to be a capsule anymore?  If it's going to be caches I'd like to know what they're going to try to do to protect or cluster the tubes together without a capsule.
My understanding is that they are simply laying the tubes on the ground (presumably they are uniquely marked so a subsequent rover can retrieve just the ones desired).  There have been concerns about the effects of solar heating, so perhaps they'll put them in the shadow of a large rock.


What I heard in a briefing a few weeks ago sounded like they are actually going to have them in containers of about 10. But they could be essentially open rack containers, maybe something like this, possibly with a cover over it to keep it shaded.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/14/2016 04:00 am
What I heard in a briefing a few weeks ago sounded like they are actually going to have them in containers of about 10. But they could be essentially open rack containers, maybe something like this, possibly with a cover over it to keep it shaded.
That would be neater
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/14/2016 04:57 pm
To clarify: I only heard containers of about 10. I don't know if they will be open rack or sealed.

It strikes me that a certain amount of flexibility might be useful--for instance, taking a few more sample tubes than they actually need so that they can do a final selection based upon the entire sample set.

Put it this way: suppose they take 34 containers, but can only return 30 of them. Having 4 extras could be useful. What if one of the containers does not seal right? Or what if they decide after filling container #30 that container #3 was a low-quality sample and they would rather have a better sample? That way if they fill up 34, they can decide later which ones were of lower interest.

But this is me speculating. They might be planning on taking 30 and returning 30 and that's it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/14/2016 06:24 pm
To clarify: I only heard containers of about 10. I don't know if they will be open rack or sealed.

It strikes me that a certain amount of flexibility might be useful--for instance, taking a few more sample tubes than they actually need so that they can do a final selection based upon the entire sample set.


A rack is better than nothing, open or sealed.  If another rover has to pick it up the least that should be done is to at least wrap the samples in a small gift basket, and by that I mean it's easier for a remote-controlled robotic arm to pick up a rack with a decent handle as opposed to a pile the operators on Earth have to painstakingly spend several hours a piece picking up individual tubes.  If the rack should do anything aside from holding the tubes together, perhaps it should be minimal thermal control; like literally a tinfoil-esque umbrella to mitigate the thermal effects of direct sun.  For something more cost-effective than a full-blown capsule that's the most I'd expect offhand.

Hopefully we see the 2020 team release some progress.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/14/2016 09:23 pm
There's a Mars 2020 update from March here:

http://mepag.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/21_MEPAG_160303_FINAL%20v2.pdf

They are scheduled to go into Phase C (Design and Development) in April/May, so presumably they are about to do that any time now. Considering that they already have a lot of hardware in hand, they should move through this faster than MSL/Curiosity did.



Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/15/2016 02:04 am
There's a Mars 2020 update from March here:

http://mepag.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/21_MEPAG_160303_FINAL%20v2.pdf

They are scheduled to go into Phase C (Design and Development) in April/May, so presumably they are about to do that any time now. Considering that they already have a lot of hardware in hand, they should move through this faster than MSL/Curiosity did.

Hmm...so not as much detail on how the samples will be processed although it says adaptive cache is baselined.  It's also interesting to see they're still considering the helicopter idea, more imaging in general EDL, and microphones.  Inversely, cubsats and a ring parachute are off the list; both make sense if they're trying to duplicate Curiosity as much as possible.

It appears that they've divided the landing sites into fluvial versus hydrothermal sites.  I'm tempted to lean more towards the hydrothermal group because it includes Columbia Hills i.e. Gusev Crater, which has the advantage of better study, along with prominently considered Nili Fossae.  They have a good variety to chose from, although I hope consideration for MSR will be considered.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/15/2016 02:54 am
They have a good variety to chose from, although I hope consideration for MSR will be considered.

Sample return is going to drive landing site selection. It is the primary reason they are doing this mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/15/2016 07:00 am
They have a good variety to chose from, although I hope consideration for MSR will be considered.

Sample return is going to drive landing site selection. It is the primary reason they are doing this mission.

Would you say the launch needs of a future MAV be part of that?  If so I am assuming some leeway is being considered beyond a strictly equatorial site.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/15/2016 08:23 am
There's a Mars 2020 update from March here:

http://mepag.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/21_MEPAG_160303_FINAL%20v2.pdf

They are scheduled to go into Phase C (Design and Development) in April/May, so presumably they are about to do that any time now. Considering that they already have a lot of hardware in hand, they should move through this faster than MSL/Curiosity did.

Hmm...so not as much detail on how the samples will be processed although it says adaptive cache is baselined.  It's also interesting to see they're still considering the helicopter idea, more imaging in general EDL, and microphones.  Inversely, cubsats and a ring parachute are off the list; both make sense if they're trying to duplicate Curiosity as much as possible.

It appears that they've divided the landing sites into fluvial versus hydrothermal sites.  I'm tempted to lean more towards the hydrothermal group because it includes Columbia Hills i.e. Gusev Crater, which has the advantage of better study, along with prominently considered Nili Fossae.  They have a good variety to chose from, although I hope consideration for MSR will be considered.

Like the helicopter I hope the microphones do fly as well. Vision is all very well but sound is also an important part of how we interpret things.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/15/2016 09:04 am
Like the helicopter I hope the microphones do fly as well. Vision is all very well but sound is also an important part of how we interpret things.

I think they're allowing the helicopter (as a possibility) because it's small and pseudo-independent of the rover (probably still needs it for communication), not to mention having a mini-scout able to check ahead on a sample-critical mission has merit.

The paper said the microphones are already baselined; I'm pretty sure the Planetary Society supported it - their blog here on it: http://www.planetary.org/blogs/bruce-betts/2016/0215-mars-2020-microphone.html (http://www.planetary.org/blogs/bruce-betts/2016/0215-mars-2020-microphone.html)

Again I long to hear more about the cache plans; if they're going adaptable I hope there's some way to bundle the cores together to ease the future burden on a retrieval rover or likewise an astronaut.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/20/2016 12:46 am
I hope they will find a way to collect enough samples for 2 sample return flights. Sample return is complex, and there is a reasonable chance that the first attempt will fail. If there is enough sample for a second attempt, it would avoid the time and cost needed to fly a second sample collecting rover.

Another reason for doing this is that while the rover has a design life of 2 years the expected life is more like 10-20 years. They will want to collect enough samples for a return flight fairly quickly, before they have had a chance to really explore and understand the landing site. If the rover lasts a long time they will discover a lot of interesting things in the extended mission and there will be a strong desire to return those rather than the original samples. That will only be possible if they have plenty of sample return containers.

I understand this would add weight but I don't see why it should add a lot of additional cost. All that is required is more copies of hardware that the project already plans to design and build.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/20/2016 12:13 pm
Another reason for doing this is that while the rover has a design life of 2 years the expected life is more like 10-20 years.

Where do you get that latter figure?

What is the available Pu-238 energy level at 10 years?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/20/2016 12:14 pm
They have a good variety to chose from, although I hope consideration for MSR will be considered.

Sample return is going to drive landing site selection. It is the primary reason they are doing this mission.

Would you say the launch needs of a future MAV be part of that?  If so I am assuming some leeway is being considered beyond a strictly equatorial site.

Yeah, I'm sure that the MAV requirements are factored in there somehow.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/20/2016 08:49 pm
Another reason for doing this is that while the rover has a design life of 2 years the expected life is more like 10-20 years.

Where do you get that latter figure?

What is the available Pu-238 energy level at 10 years?

There's a couple of ways of looking at that. Half-life of Pu-238 is 88 years, so heat production drops off very slowly. Power conversion components inside the RTG also degrade. Several sources state a minimum lifetime of 14 years for a MMRTG, but many spacecraft have exceeded that. If the RTG is manufactured 3 years before launch and the journey to Mars takes 1 year, then the RTG should last at least 10 years on the surface. Wikipedia claims 125W when new, and 100W after 14 years.

 Another source states 122W when new, and 54W after 17 years. The same source shows MSL discretionary energy falling to zero after 13 years on the surface. That source admits they are modelling decay as a linear rather than an exponential process for reasons of conservatism. That will give a much faster decay in power output than would be expected in practice.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/july2014/posters/15-eMMRTG_PosterV5.pdf

What about other things besides the power supply? The average life of Opportunity and Spirit works out to 9 years. Hopefully they have learned how to avoid getting stuck in the sand as Spirit did. Opportunity shows that motors, mechanisms and circuit boards can all last at least 12 years on the surface.

Orbiter experience is similar. Mars Global Surveyor failed at 10 yr, but MRO (11 yr), Mars Express (12 yr) and Odyssey (15yr) are still going strong.

Cassini is still scientifically productive 18yr after launch, while Ulysses was switched off 19yr after launch due to transmitter problems. I think 10-20 years is a very reasonable guess for the lifetime of the 2020 rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/20/2016 09:24 pm
There's a couple of ways of looking at that. Half-life of Pu-238 is 88 years, so heat production drops off very slowly. Power conversion components inside the RTG also degrade. Several sources state a minimum lifetime of 14 years for a MMRTG, but many spacecraft have exceeded that. If the RTG is manufactured 3 years before launch and the journey to Mars takes 1 year, then the RTG should last at least 10 years on the surface. Wikipedia claims 125W when new, and 100W after 14 years.
Another issue is battery life.  The RTG actually powers the battery, which is used for the bulk of Curiosity's operations.  (RTG also provides ample heat, eliminating or minimizing the need for electric heaters).  Curiosity's long life suggests that the Energizer bunny is alive and well on Mars.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 05/21/2016 01:09 pm

Orbiter experience is similar. Mars Global Surveyor failed at 10 yr, but MRO (11 yr), Mars Express (12 yr) and Odyssey (15yr) are still going strong.


Spacecraft are not relevant comparisons to rovers.  Different systems and different environments.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 05/21/2016 03:31 pm
RTG also provides ample heat, eliminating or minimizing the need for electric heaters. 
The RTG on MSL can only heat the internal electronics via a fluid loop; all of the external actuators and instruments still have to be electrically heated to use them and this requires a fair amount of battery power.  See, e.g., https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream/handle/2346/59520/ICES-2014-295.pdf?sequence=1
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 05/21/2016 03:36 pm
Mars Global Surveyor failed at 10 yr
The root cause of the MGS failure was errors in ground commanding, not a hardware failure.
See http://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/1805
Quote
The mission loss was attributed to a High Gain Antenna (HGA) positioning command sent by the spacecraft operations team five months earlier that, in the process of updating several parameters, created a bad memory load...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 05/21/2016 03:55 pm
RTG also provides ample heat, eliminating or minimizing the need for electric heaters. 
The RTG on MSL can only heat the internal electronics via a fluid loop; all of the external actuators and instruments still have to be electrically heated to use them and this requires a fair amount of battery power.  See, e.g., https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream/handle/2346/59520/ICES-2014-295.pdf?sequence=1
Thanks ccdengr.  For outer planet missions, RTGs also provide this double blessing (heat + electricity).  Almost half of Juno's power goes to heaters.  At Saturn, powering the heaters makes solar power iffy.  Low data rate missions like the Enceladus Life Finder can just manage while missions with any serious data requirements can't (per a JPL engineer I talked with).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/21/2016 08:23 pm

Another issue is battery life.  The RTG actually powers the battery, which is used for the bulk of Curiosity's operations.  (RTG also provides ample heat, eliminating or minimizing the need for electric heaters).  Curiosity's long life suggests that the Energizer bunny is alive and well on Mars.

I've been digging into the battery issue a little. With lithium-ion, if you discharge them all the way, that is called a deep cycle, and it wears out the batteries quickly. A consumer battery might be killed by 400 deep cycles. If you only discharge them 10%, you can extend the life of the same battery by a factor of 10 to 4000 cycles or so.

What do they mean by 'dead'? This seems to be defined as a 30% loss of capacity rather than a complete failure. So it might still be usable up to a point.

NASA did a test of the batteries used on the Mars rover and found they could cope with 12000 cycles at 40% depth of discharge.  20 years on Mars would be 7105 cycles, so the batteries might not be life limiting if they are not deeply discharged on a regular basis.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20080008855.pdf

What about the RTG? 20 years after manufacture that should still be producing 72% of its original power if it ages in the same way that the Viking ones did. Heat output should be 85% of new. The power output goes down more than the heat because there is some deterioration in the heat to electricity conversion components. 20 years after manufacture is probably equivalent to 16 years after landing.

The bottom line is that the battery is more life limiting than the RTG, but even that looks like it could last 20 years or more.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/21/2016 08:29 pm
Mars Global Surveyor failed at 10 yr
The root cause of the MGS failure was errors in ground commanding, not a hardware failure.
See http://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/1805


Thanks, I didn't realize that it wasn't a hardware failure. I think it is still a relevant data point though. A bad command load could  kill a rover if it causes it to drive off a cliff.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: savuporo on 05/21/2016 09:11 pm
I've been digging into the battery issue a little. With lithium-ion, if you discharge them all the way, that is called a deep cycle, and it wears out the batteries quickly. A consumer battery might be killed by 400 deep cycles. If you only discharge them 10%, you can extend the life of the same battery by a factor of 10 to 4000 cycles or so.

What do they mean by 'dead'? This seems to be defined as a 30% loss of capacity rather than a complete failure. So it might still be usable up to a point.

NASA did a test of the batteries used on the Mars rover and found they could cope with 12000 cycles at 40% depth of discharge.  20 years on Mars would be 7105 cycles, so the batteries might not be life limiting if they are not deeply discharged on a regular basis.

Yes, but lithium ion also has calendar life based capacity loss. You can excercise them at 10K cycles rapidly and estimate the capacity loss, but they do degrade over time too. Slow cycling over a few years over the same number of cycles will hence result in bigger capacity loss - which also somewhat depends on average state of charge and temperature over the period.
So cycle life isn't the full story, but fortunately for established battery chemistry and construction types there are fairly good models for estimating calendar life too.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/23/2016 01:09 am
What about the RTG? 20 years after manufacture that should still be producing 72% of its original power if it ages in the same way that the Viking ones did. Heat output should be 85% of new.

Are you using actual power levels for the MMRTG being built for Mars 2020?

Remember that the last Pu-238 manufactured in the U.S. was made in 1988.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/23/2016 09:12 pm
I don't know anything specific about the MMRTG being built for Mars 2020. If they were no longer able to meet the specifications for initial power output then I think that would have been well publicized.

In one sense it doesn't matter how old the Pu-238 is. Whatever the current heat output is, it will take 88 years to fall to half of current levels. That is the basic physics of how radioactive decay works.  If the Mars 2020 RTG delivers as much power when new as Curiosity's did, then power production will decline in exactly the same way. If it delivers less when new, it will still take the same amount of time to fall by 10% or 20% or 50% as Curiosity's did.

I'm sure the Pu-238 stockpile has all sorts of different batches with different heat outputs depending on their age. I don't know exactly how they manage all that to hit a certain specification for RTG power. As the stockpile ages, at some point it will become impossible to make RTGs with the specified initial output.

There are some other things that might be life limiting. They use a coolant loop to circulate heat from the RTG to the rover interior. The plumbing, pumps and cooling fluid in that won't last forever.

There is also the flash memory in the computer. That wears out after a certain number of read/write cycles. Opportunity is having all sorts of troubles with its flash memory, so maybe there is something in the Martian environment that doesn't agree with flash.  It should be good for 10 years, but maybe not 20.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: a_langwich on 05/23/2016 09:35 pm
RTG also provides ample heat, eliminating or minimizing the need for electric heaters. 
The RTG on MSL can only heat the internal electronics via a fluid loop; all of the external actuators and instruments still have to be electrically heated to use them and this requires a fair amount of battery power.  See, e.g., https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream/handle/2346/59520/ICES-2014-295.pdf?sequence=1

What, exactly, in the electronics requires heating?  Is it just capacitors?  Sensors calibrated for certain temp range?  Most electronic components do very well down into the cryogenic temperature range.

How is JWST handling this?  I thought nearly all of its components were running at very cold temps.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: savuporo on 05/23/2016 09:48 pm

What, exactly, in the electronics requires heating?  Is it just capacitors?  Sensors calibrated for certain temp range?  Most electronic components do very well down into the cryogenic temperature range.

How is JWST handling this?  I thought nearly all of its components were running at very cold temps.


Normal temperature for military grade electronics ( aka 'COTS' ) is -55C to 125C at best. First issues would be batteries, capacitors, but semiconductors will start to not behave at low temperatures as well. Unless they are specially designed low-temperature parts like 500-nano BiCMOS

Here is a good read on this: link (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/EA_Kolawa/publication/4157472_Design_challenges_and_methodology_for_developing_new_integrated_circuits_for_the_robotics_exploration_of_the_solar_system/links/00b7d53c55aafdb30e000000.pdf)

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: a_langwich on 05/23/2016 09:55 pm
What about the RTG? 20 years after manufacture that should still be producing 72% of its original power if it ages in the same way that the Viking ones did. Heat output should be 85% of new.

Are you using actual power levels for the MMRTG being built for Mars 2020?

Remember that the last Pu-238 manufactured in the U.S. was made in 1988.


Yes, but every atom of Pu-238 has as much potential energy as any atom of Pu-238 has ever had.  The half-life says which atoms of Pu-238 decay to something else, but if it's still Pu-238, it's got as much energy as it ever had. 

I think I made that more confusing, sorry.

So if 20% of your sample has decayed, then you have 80% Pu-238, and 20% U-238 (the decay product), and you can separate out the U-238 and get a smaller amount of pure, hasn't-yet-decayed Pu-238. 

That's the re-blending process that's done, I believe.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/24/2016 04:42 am

What, exactly, in the electronics requires heating?  Is it just capacitors?  Sensors calibrated for certain temp range?  Most electronic components do very well down into the cryogenic temperature range.

How is JWST handling this?  I thought nearly all of its components were running at very cold temps.


Normal temperature for military grade electronics ( aka 'COTS' ) is -55C to 125C at best. First issues would be batteries, capacitors, but semiconductors will start to not behave at low temperatures as well. Unless they are specially designed low-temperature parts like 500-nano BiCMOS

Here is a good read on this: link (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/EA_Kolawa/publication/4157472_Design_challenges_and_methodology_for_developing_new_integrated_circuits_for_the_robotics_exploration_of_the_solar_system/links/00b7d53c55aafdb30e000000.pdf)
Mismatches in the PCB coefficients of thermal expansion can cause solder joints to strain and fail.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 05/24/2016 05:38 am
Mismatches in the PCB coefficients of thermal expansion can cause solder joints to strain and fail.
True, but most of the external electronics in MSL had to be qualified to survive 3x mission life worth of thermal cycles without any heating (an exception was Chemcam in its heated box at the top of the remote sensing mast.)

Most of the external heating requirements come from wet-lubricated mechanisms.
See http://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/11501
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: MATTBLAK on 05/24/2016 06:08 am
I sure hope they toughen up the wheels of the next rover - Curiosity's have taken a hell of a hammering.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/24/2016 07:33 pm

What, exactly, in the electronics requires heating?  Is it just capacitors?  Sensors calibrated for certain temp range?  Most electronic components do very well down into the cryogenic temperature range.

How is JWST handling this?  I thought nearly all of its components were running at very cold temps.

There are several materials issues with temperature. Some metals and polymers can become very brittle when temperatures fall below a certain point. This is the case for normal steel, and also things like rubber. Low temperature embrittlement has been the cause of numerous engineering disasters, including Challenger. Metals like aluminum are not sensitive to this, so this is not the problem with the wheels.

Liquids like battery electrolytes and lubricants can freeze. I think batteries really don't like being frozen. I also remember that NASA tried hard to develop wheel motors that could operate at cryogenic temperatures. This would avoid the need to spend energy heating the wheels every time the rover moves. That didn't work out.

Finally there is a big issue with the temperature change between night and day. A 100C change means substantial thermal expansion and contraction. That means cyclical stresses in parts. Cyclical stresses mean fatigue cracks, and cracks mean failure. I think the connections on circuit boards are vulnerable to this.

How is JWST coping with these issues? Expensively! At least the JWST temperatures will be stable, which avoids the thermal expansion problems. I read that developing actuators suitable for the temperatures was costly. I also know that one instrument had to be dropped, because it couldn't be adapted to low temperature service. Finally, the JWST mirrors are made of beryllium rather than silicon carbide. Beryllium is only used on cryogenic mirrors due to cost.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Helodriver on 05/24/2016 07:43 pm
New stronger wheel design confirmed by Deputy JPL director today at Space Tech Expo. Thicker metal, curved tread pattern for less mechanical stress.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/24/2016 07:48 pm
True, but most of the external electronics in MSL had to be qualified to survive 3x mission life worth of thermal cycles without any heating (an exception was Chemcam in its heated box at the top of the remote sensing mast.)

Most of the external heating requirements come from wet-lubricated mechanisms.
See http://llis.nasa.gov/lesson/11501

So that means external electronics in things like instruments should be good for 6 earth years. Although Opportunity's would have been qualified for 9 months of life and yet some (but not all) of the instruments are still going.

I still think that a productive life of 10-15 years is a fair expectation for the 2020 rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: savuporo on 05/24/2016 07:52 pm
Preliminary Surface Thermal Design  of the Mars 2020 Rover
https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/bitstream/handle/2346/64407/ICES_2015_submission_134.pdf

Also notes
Quote
There are many heritage hardware elements from MSL that will be re-used on M2020.  Some of these are exact copies  of  MSL  designs;  others  are  MSL  build-to-print  designs  with  slight  modifications.  The  M2020  mobility   system, which has 6 drive motors and 4 steer motors, will be essentially the same as MSL. The MSL wheels, which  sustained significant damage during traverses over sharp rock s inside Gale Crater, will be strengthened (at the cost of increased mass) for M2020.

I think it might end up as simple as adding material.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 05/24/2016 08:36 pm
I sure hope they toughen up the wheels of the next rover - Curiosity's have taken a hell of a hammering.

Even on Curiosity I don't think the wheel damage will limit the life to less than 10 years. The wheels aren't even half trashed. And the 2020 mission will have stronger ones for sure.

I wonder if the wheel damage is an example of something called stress corrosion cracking. If certain chemicals are present in the environment, it can greatly accelerate the rate at which fatigue cracks grow. I doubt anybody has ever studied the effect of perchlorate on aluminum, but I know that chloride ions do attack aluminum. Both chloride ions and perchlorates contain chlorine.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/24/2016 09:18 pm
I wonder if the wheel damage is an example of something called stress corrosion cracking. If certain chemicals are present in the environment, it can greatly accelerate the rate at which fatigue cracks grow. I doubt anybody has ever studied the effect of perchlorate on aluminum, but I know that chloride ions do attack aluminum. Both chloride ions and perchlorates contain chlorine.

Interesting point regarding corrosive cracking, although I think it's more to do with sharp pointy rocks stabbing aluminum wheels.  There's a reason aerospace and automotive engineers are two separate fields of expertise.  I'm sure they'll improve '2020's wheels by improving on Curiosity's.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2016 01:06 am
New stronger wheel design confirmed by Deputy JPL director today at Space Tech Expo. Thicker metal, curved tread pattern for less mechanical stress.

If you go higher in the thread you should find one or more JPL presentations posted by me that include a schematic of the rover that points out the stuff that is the same and the stuff that is different--and new wheels were called out.

The surprising thing to me is that apparently they have to alter the driving electronics and software to deal with the new wheels. But that makes sense when you think about it--you drive your car differently if you have racing tires vs. snow tires, so changing the mass of the wheels would naturally require changing the software that turns them and steers them.

Also, it would not surprise me if JPL has already modeled further damage to the Curiosity wheels so they know what to do if it happens. It would make sense to at least do this on a computer, and maybe they've even put some very damaged wheels on their engineering mockup to see how it handles.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: JH on 05/25/2016 05:39 am
Also, it would not surprise me if JPL has already modeled further damage to the Curiosity wheels so they know what to do if it happens. It would make sense to at least do this on a computer, and maybe they've even put some very damaged wheels on their engineering mockup to see how it handles.

They've been doing testing in the Mars yard at JPL pretty much constantly ever since they found out that the wheels were degrading faster than expected (a few years now). They drive around a test version of MSL on different surfaces and they also have a half-set of wheels on an arm that drives around in a circle over surfaces that they periodically switch out (they have the wheels weighted down to simulate the load on Mars). I've seen a number of wheels that they've tested completely to destruction. Amusingly, the only part of the wheel treads that survived alright were the sections with "JPL" stamped into them in Morse code.

Oh, I was able to find some pictures I took one time.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2016 01:01 pm
I can believe that they tested wheels to destruction. I'm wondering if they have tested pre-damaged wheels specifically to figure out controllability issues. In other words, have they been trying to figure out how they can drive with very damaged wheels?

Of course, these are two sides of a coin, but the objectives are different. Driving to destruction is intended to figure out how long the wheels could last, not how best to drive with damaged wheels.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 05/25/2016 02:10 pm
Amusingly, the only part of the wheel treads that survived alright were the sections with "JPL" stamped into them in Morse code.

So, why can't they just stamp JPL over the whole wheel to solve the problem?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: JH on 05/25/2016 03:08 pm
I've seen them driving the test rig up and down a hill in the yard (which I don't seem to have a picture of), but I am not sure if that was just general drive performance characterization or if it was using damaged wheels. I would be surprised if they haven't done tests on damaged wheels, though.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: NovaSilisko on 05/26/2016 10:46 pm
I've seen them driving the test rig up and down a hill in the yard (which I don't seem to have a picture of), but I am not sure if that was just general drive performance characterization or if it was using damaged wheels. I would be surprised if they haven't done tests on damaged wheels, though.

I seem to recall seeing photos of the test rig with Curiosity-style wheels that had been run absolutely bare, close to nothing remaining of the wheel past its "hubcap" and front rim edge.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/27/2016 12:32 am
Potential biosignatures identified?
Spirit observed some mineral fomations that looked like some seen here on Earth. Still not sure if the ones here on Earth were made by life though.
'Cauliflower' Silica Formations on Mars: Evidence of Ancient Life?
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=91183

Geyserite are generally associated with microbial activity.  See:

https://hal-insu.archives-ouvertes.fr/insu-01163128/document

http://www.mdpi.com/2078-1547/5/2/430

Steve Ruff's presentation on possible geyserite at the 2nd 2020 rover landing site workshop resulted in Gusev crater being added to the list

http://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/2015_08/16_Ruff_M2020_2nd_LSW_presentation_v3.pdf

Here are some photos of geyserites from NZ

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 05/27/2016 09:58 am
Geyserite are generally associated with microbial activity.  See:

https://hal-insu.archives-ouvertes.fr/insu-01163128/document

http://www.mdpi.com/2078-1547/5/2/430

Steve Ruff's presentation on possible geyserite at the 2nd 2020 rover landing site workshop resulted in Gusev crater being added to the list

http://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/2015_08/16_Ruff_M2020_2nd_LSW_presentation_v3.pdf

Here are some photos of geyserites from NZ

This definitely boosts my support for Gusev Crater all the more, both for the rover and human visits.  I read a few of the papers advocating a return, with hydrothermal sites being a prime reason.  The pancam pictures in the Ruff presentation do bear a resemblance to the Chilean analog site.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 06/06/2016 09:54 pm
My coworker listened in to the NAC Planetary Protection Subcommittee meeting last week. He told me a number of things about it, including that ESA has developed some very impressive processes for sterilizing their ExoMars rover instruments.

He also said that there was a presentation about the 2020 helicopter. Apparently still being developed. The plan is to set it down on the ground and move away before launching it. It will only have enough power for three flights and a single instrument--essentially a GoPro type camera. Nobody wants it anywhere near the rover.

The presentations are not on line yet, but they will end up there at some point.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mleigh on 06/07/2016 05:09 pm
JPL had their open house this past weekend and I failed at taking notes, but this is what I remember.

The most interesting, and safer, option instead of the helicopter idea to me are the little origami robots designed to fold flat and stack on future missions to be deployed after landing (photo attached- the one on the right is a new skin they're developing). They do not currently have a mission assignment, but I could see these being on the 2020 Rover with a camera and microphone mounted on them. They have considered wheels based on the microspine climber (photo attached) allowing it to climb porous rock and making it a great candidate to send into caves on mars.

I was told by an engineer that they're still planning to drop core samples to be picked up by a later mission, they will not to be carried by the rover.

They discovered a bunch of extra fuel after landing Curiosity and jettisoning off to blow up a safe distance away. The 2020 will not carry as much fuel to bring the 2020 Rover to the surface allowing for a heavier rover.

The 2020 Rover is set to use the spare heat shield from (I think) Curiosity so that already exists and is in the clean room (photo attached). The other boxes with neon in the clean room are also for an upcoming mission, I believe they are solar panels of sorts but could be wrong.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 06/29/2016 08:32 pm
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust
Green: selection of rocket for Mars 2020 “very imminent”; once complete, can look at opportunities to fly cubesats with it. #SBAG
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: baldusi on 06/29/2016 10:55 pm
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust
Green: selection of rocket for Mars 2020 “very imminent”; once complete, can look at opportunities to fly cubesats with it. #SBAG
Thus Falcon Heavy is out of the question, Falcon 9 lack the performance and Delta IV Heavy is too expensive and lack nuclear rating. Which LV will they chose?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/30/2016 12:33 am
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust
Green: selection of rocket for Mars 2020 “very imminent”; once complete, can look at opportunities to fly cubesats with it. #SBAG
Thus Falcon Heavy is out of the question, Falcon 9 lack the performance and Delta IV Heavy is too expensive and lack nuclear rating. Which LV will they chose?
Are you certain that Falcon 9 lacks the performance? According to SpaceX's website, F9 gets 4020kg to Mars, while the MSL Curiosity total spacecraft TMI mass was 3893kg. Sounds like it should be capable.

Nuclear rating is another issue, which most certainly favors Atlas V. (As does launch reliability, although Falcon 9's 25/26--counting all at least partial successes--is superior to what Ariane 5's reliability was at 26 flights... 24/26, again counting all at least partial successes... So it's not as if SpaceX will not eventually be able to recover to an equivalent reliability rating... Provided they do well.)

It may also be that SpaceX has the option of using Falcon Heavy if it can be qualified in time, since Falcon Heavy would have almost all the same interfaces as Falcon 9.


So while Atlas V certainly has a leg up, here, it's not as if SpaceX has no chance whatsoever. So at the very least, NASA has a good bargaining position with ULA to get a good price for Atlas V.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 06/30/2016 03:12 am

So while Atlas V certainly has a leg up, here, it's not as if SpaceX has no chance whatsoever. So at the very least, NASA has a good bargaining position with ULA to get a good price for Atlas V.

There is no chance.  All the RTG handling GSE is based on Atlas V ops from JPL POV.  Not to mention the cooling mods to the Atlas V fairing, the VIF GSE for RTG installation, the two large doors 180 degrees apart, which negate horizontal ops (look where the F9 fairing split line is awhile horizontal)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 06/30/2016 05:53 am

So while Atlas V certainly has a leg up, here, it's not as if SpaceX has no chance whatsoever. So at the very least, NASA has a good bargaining position with ULA to get a good price for Atlas V.

There is no chance.  All the RTG handling GSE is based on Atlas V ops from JPL POV.  Not to mention the cooling mods to the Atlas V fairing, the VIF GSE for RTG installation, the two large doors 180 degrees apart, which negate horizontal ops (look where the F9 fairing split line is awhile horizontal)

Well when the Atlas V goes away at least one other launcher will need to be nuclear rated.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 07/15/2016 05:23 pm
Watching the Facebook Live event on the 2020 rover and the sample expert said that they will drop off 5-10 collected samples into a little pile. So I guess this means that they will be dropping individual sample canisters, not groups of them.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 07/15/2016 10:37 pm
July 15, 2016
RELEASE 16-077
NASA's Next Mars Rover Progresses Toward 2020 Launch


After an extensive review process and passing a major development milestone, NASA is ready to proceed with final design and construction of its next Mars rover, currently targeted to launch in the summer of 2020 and arrive on the Red Planet in February 2021.

The Mars 2020 rover will investigate a region of Mars where the ancient environment may have been favorable for microbial life, probing the Martian rocks for evidence of past life. Throughout its investigation, it will collect samples of soil and rock and cache them on the surface for potential return to Earth by a future mission.

“The Mars 2020 rover is the first step in a potential multi-mission campaign to return carefully selected and sealed samples of Martian rocks and soil to Earth,” said Geoffrey Yoder, acting associate administrator of NASA’s Science Mission Directorate in Washington. “This mission marks a significant milestone in NASA’s Journey to Mars – to determine whether life has ever existed on Mars, and to advance our goal of sending humans to the Red Planet.”

To reduce risk and provide cost savings, the 2020 rover will look much like its six-wheeled, one-ton predecessor, Curiosity, but with an array of new science instruments and enhancements to explore Mars as never before. For example, the rover will conduct the first investigation into the usability and availability of Martian resources, including oxygen, in preparation for human missions.

Mars 2020 will carry an entirely new subsystem to collect and prepare Martian rocks and soil samples that includes a coring drill on its arm and a rack of sample tubes. About 30 of these sample tubes will be deposited at select locations for return on a potential future sample-retrieval mission. In laboratories on Earth, specimens from Mars could be analyzed for evidence of past life on Mars and possible health hazards for future human missions.

Two science instruments mounted on the rover’s robotic arm will be used to search for signs of past life and determine where to collect samples by analyzing the chemical, mineral, physical and organic characteristics of Martian rocks. On the rover’s mast, two science instruments will provide high-resolution imaging and three types of spectroscopy for characterizing rocks and soil from a distance, also helping to determine which rock targets to explore up close.

A suite of sensors on the mast and deck will monitor weather conditions and the dust environment, and a ground-penetrating radar will assess sub-surface geologic structure.

The Mars 2020 rover will use the same sky crane landing system as Curiosity, but will have the ability to land in more challenging terrain with two enhancements, making more rugged sites eligible as safe landing candidates.

"By adding what’s known as range trigger, we can specify where we want the parachute to open, not just at what velocity we want it to open,” said Allen Chen, Mars 2020 entry, descent and landing lead at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California. "That shrinks our landing area by nearly half."

Terrain-relative navigation on the new rover will use onboard analysis of downward-looking images taken during descent, matching them to a map that indicates zones designated unsafe for landing.

"As it is descending, the spacecraft can tell whether it is headed for one of the unsafe zones and divert to safe ground nearby,” said Chen. "With this capability, we can now consider landing areas with unsafe zones that previously would have disqualified the whole area. Also, we can land closer to a specific science destination, for less driving after landing."

There will be a suite of cameras and a microphone that will capture the never-before-seen or heard imagery and sounds of the entry, descent and landing sequence. Information from the descent cameras and microphone will provide valuable data to assist in planning future Mars landings, and make for thrilling video.

"Nobody has ever seen what a parachute looks like as it is opening in the Martian atmosphere,” said JPL's David Gruel, assistant flight system manager for the Mars 2020 mission. “So this will provide valuable engineering information.”

Microphones have flown on previous missions to Mars, including NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander in 2008, but never have actually been used on the surface of the Red Planet.

"This will be a great opportunity for the public to hear the sounds of Mars for the first time, and it could also provide useful engineering information," said Mars 2020 Deputy Project Manager Matt Wallace of JPL.

Once a mission receives preliminary approval, it must go through four rigorous technical and programmatic reviews – known as Key Decision Points (KDP) — to proceed through the phases of development prior to launch. Phase A involves concept and requirements definition, Phase B is preliminary design and technology development, Phase C is final design and fabrication, and Phase D is system assembly, testing, and launch. Mars 2020 has just passed its KDP-C milestone.

"Since Mars 2020 is leveraging the design and some spare hardware from Curiosity, a significant amount of the mission's heritage components have already been built during Phases A and B,” said George Tahu, Mars 2020 program executive at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "With the KDP to enter Phase C completed, the project is proceeding with final design and construction of the new systems, as well as the rest of the heritage elements for the mission."

The Mars 2020 mission is part of NASA's Mars Exploration Program. Driven by scientific discovery, the program currently includes two active rovers and three NASA spacecraft orbiting Mars. NASA also plans to launch a stationary Mars lander in 2018, InSight, to study the deep interior of Mars.

JPL manages the Mars 2020 project and the Mars Exploration Program for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington.

For more information about Mars 2020, visit:

http://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020

-end-

Picture :Mars 2020 rover design

Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech  This image is from computer-assisted-design work on the Mars 2020 rover. The design leverages many successful features of NASA's Curiosity rover, which landed on Mars in 2012, but also adds new science instruments and a sampling system to carry out new goals for the 2020 mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 07/15/2016 10:38 pm
NASA Does Facebook Live Update on the Next Mars Rover

NASA

Published on Jul 15, 2016
The team developing NASA's next rover mission to Mars has received a go-ahead from the agency to proceed with building the rover for launch in 2020. A July 15 Facebook Live event from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory featured updated news about the Mars 2020 rover and its mission. It will be almost identical to the Curiosity rover currently on Mars, but will have enhanced landing technology, the ability to prepare soil and rock samples for return to Earth and microphones to capture sound. The rover will look for signs of past life in a region of the Red Planet where the ancient environment was favorable for microbial life.

https://youtu.be/jN9gGW3ovkU?t=001

https://youtu.be/jN9gGW3ovkU
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/16/2016 06:13 am
The planetary society empathise their cooperation on the microphone.

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jason-davis/2016/20160715-mars-2020-kdp-c.html
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: llanitedave on 07/17/2016 03:22 pm
Looks like the wheels have been modified a bit too.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/17/2016 08:21 pm
Looks like the wheels have been modified a bit too.

Yep they have that's addressed in the article in my previous post.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/21/2016 07:31 pm
Mars 2020 rover mission to cost more than $2 billion

Quote
NASA’s next flagship Mars mission, the Mars 2020 rover, moves into its next phase of development, agency officials say the mission will cost $2.1 billion, more than originally estimated for a mission that they argue will also be more capable than first planned.

http://spacenews.com/mars-2020-rover-mission-to-cost-more-than-2-billion/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/25/2016 07:09 pm
Further to the above story.

Quote
Jeff Foust –  ‏@jeff_foust

At NAC science cmte meeting, Jim Green says NASA “holding the line” on costs for Mars 2020; new cost estimate reflects add’l capabilities.

Also from Jeff Foust Twitter's Green expects it to launch on the Atlas V. (551 I assume)

Quote
Green also says Mars 2020 will launch on an Atlas 5; expected (MSL also launched on an Atlas 5), but hadn’t heard formal announcement yet.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 07/25/2016 07:49 pm


Also from Jeff Foust Twitter's Green expects it to launch on the Atlas V. (551 I assume)


MSL launched on a 541
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/25/2016 10:12 pm


Also from Jeff Foust Twitter's Green expects it to launch on the Atlas V. (551 I assume)


MSL launched on a 541
Though based on Curiosity is there sufficient differences that may require the use of a different faring?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/25/2016 11:35 pm


Also from Jeff Foust Twitter's Green expects it to launch on the Atlas V. (551 I assume)


MSL launched on a 541
Though based on Curiosity is there sufficient differences that may require the use of a different faring?
you mean launcher config.
MSL(-1) is baseline for MSL-2
MSL-2 (aka 2020 rover) MSL-2 didn't "really" shed any of the MSL-1 features and instruments, rather these MSL-1 features and instruments have been upgraded and are joined by newly added instruments resulting in a larger rover mass.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 07/26/2016 12:49 am


Also from Jeff Foust Twitter's Green expects it to launch on the Atlas V. (551 I assume)


MSL launched on a 541
Though based on Curiosity is there sufficient differences that may require the use of a different faring?

The rover has no direct interface with the launch vehicle
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/26/2016 01:21 am
Does Mars 2020 weigh more than Curiosity? I ask that because the extra weight could relate to the upgraded equipment on the rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: AegeanBlue on 07/26/2016 06:08 am
Does Mars 2020 weigh more than Curiosity? I ask that because the extra weight could relate to the upgraded equipment on the rover.

They said on the facebook live update that it will be 1050 kg, about 150 kg heavier than Curiosity
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/26/2016 09:48 am
MSL-2 (aka 2020 rover) MSL-2 didn't "really" shed any of the MSL-1 features and instruments, rather these MSL-1 features and instruments have been upgraded and are joined by newly added instruments resulting in a larger rover mass.

It's shed quite a few. CheMin, APX, DAN, SAM, and RAD have no counterpart on 2020.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 07/26/2016 09:01 pm
MSL-2 (aka 2020 rover) MSL-2 didn't "really" shed any of the MSL-1 features and instruments, rather these MSL-1 features and instruments have been upgraded and are joined by newly added instruments resulting in a larger rover mass.

It's shed quite a few. CheMin, APX, DAN, SAM, and RAD have no counterpart on 2020.

Yeah, that should be pretty obvious based upon mission--MSL/Curiosity picks up dirt and puts it into SAM, whereas Mars 2020 picks up dirt and puts it into sample containers. Different requirements and implementation, so different instruments.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hobbes-22 on 10/12/2016 08:51 am
Looks like the wheels have been modified a bit too.

Chris' latest article contains this image:

(https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-11-at-10.11.44-300x350.png)

These wheels look heavier than Curiosity's wheels. From Emily Lakdawalla's 2014 blog post (http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/08190630-curiosity-wheel-damage.html) on the subject, I understood there was very little weight margin:

Quote
There were several factors that drove them to design the wheels to be as lightweight as possible. The large size of the wheels means that very slight design changes add a substantial amount of mass. Increasing wheel thickness by one millimeter would add 10 kilograms to the rover's total mass. But total system mass wasn't the only constraint. Erickson explained that a major constraint arose from a tricky moment in the landing sequence, at the moment that the wheels deployed, while the rover was suspended from the bridle underneath the descent stage. The wheels' sudden drop imparted substantial forces on the mobility system, and keeping wheel mass as light as possible reduced those forces to manageable ones. There were other factors that made it important to keep wheel mass low.

So apparently they were able to find some margin this time. I'd be interested to hear more about the design changes that allowed this.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 10/12/2016 10:14 pm
MSL-2 (aka 2020 rover) MSL-2 didn't "really" shed any of the MSL-1 features and instruments, rather these MSL-1 features and instruments have been upgraded and are joined by newly added instruments resulting in a larger rover mass.

It's shed quite a few. CheMin, APX, DAN, SAM, and RAD have no counterpart on 2020.

Yeah, that should be pretty obvious based upon mission--MSL/Curiosity picks up dirt and puts it into SAM, whereas Mars 2020 picks up dirt and puts it into sample containers. Different requirements and implementation, so different instruments.

Also in the case of RAD it's been observing radiation since the rover was flying to Mars, and a solid 4 years on Mars itself.  Between that and Odyssey's (now broken) Marie experiment we should have decent data sets to estimate the radiation does a crew needs shielding from.  Reflying that isn't necessary for instance.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 10/12/2016 10:52 pm
Also in the case of RAD it's been observing radiation since the rover was flying to Mars, and a solid 4 years on Mars itself.  Between that and Odyssey's (now broken) Marie experiment we should have decent data sets to estimate the radiation does a crew needs shielding from.  Reflying that isn't necessary for instance.

I know a guy who is one of the experts on this (I think he was PI for the Marie thing). I'll have to ask him.

If you want to see something interesting, go get the (free) report "Safe on Mars" that defined many of the measurements that needed to be taken on Mars to provide data for eventual human missions. It might make sense to do a similar study today, asking how much of that data we now have and what other data we might need.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/12/2016 11:18 pm
Looks like the wheels have been modified a bit too.

Chris' latest article contains this image:

(https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-11-at-10.11.44-300x350.png)

These wheels look heavier than Curiosity's wheels. From Emily Lakdawalla's 2014 blog post (http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/08190630-curiosity-wheel-damage.html) on the subject, I understood there was very little weight margin:

Quote
There were several factors that drove them to design the wheels to be as lightweight as possible. The large size of the wheels means that very slight design changes add a substantial amount of mass. Increasing wheel thickness by one millimeter would add 10 kilograms to the rover's total mass. But total system mass wasn't the only constraint. Erickson explained that a major constraint arose from a tricky moment in the landing sequence, at the moment that the wheels deployed, while the rover was suspended from the bridle underneath the descent stage. The wheels' sudden drop imparted substantial forces on the mobility system, and keeping wheel mass as light as possible reduced those forces to manageable ones. There were other factors that made it important to keep wheel mass low.

So apparently they were able to find some margin this time. I'd be interested to hear more about the design changes that allowed this.

Apparently the wheels are not as wide, so...

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/infographics/infographic.view.php?id=11371

Probably very nearly the same mass, just a different geometry.

Found a web page with CAD drawings of the 2020 rover, as noted on the page, the wheels look very much the same so "thicker" may be only by a tiny amount.

http://www.larsosborne.com/projects/mars-2020-rover-cad-render-analysis

Here's a test wheel on the MSL "Scarecrow" and it is visibly narrower.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CataYkMUcAA8nd5.jpg:orig

Apparently a wide variety of wheel testing was done earlier this year:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=8030
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 01/30/2017 08:23 pm
OIG report.

https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY17/IG-17-009.pdf
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 01/31/2017 01:54 am
OIG report.

https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY17/IG-17-009.pdf

Reading into it.  The most damning comment they mention is a lack of confidence in the sampling system within the first few pages:

Quote
The largest risk to the Mars 2020 schedule is the Project’s Sample and Caching Subsystem (Sampling System), which will
collect core samples of Martian rocks and soil and place them on the planet’s surface for retrieval by a future robotic or
human mission. At Preliminary Design Review (PDR), three of the Sampling System’s critical technologies were below
technology readiness level (TRL) 6, meaning the prototype had not yet demonstrated the capability to perform all the
functions required. Projects are evaluated during PDR to ensure they meet all system requirements with acceptable risk
WHY WE PERFORMED THIS AUDIT
WHAT WE FOUND
and within cost and schedule constraints. The immaturity of the critical technologies related to the Sampling System is
concerning because, according to Mars 2020 Project managers, the Sampling System is the rover’s most complex new
development component with delays likely to eat into the Project’s schedule reserve and, in the worst case scenario,
could delay launch. As of December 2016, the Project was tracking the risk that the Sampling System may not be ready
for integration and testing – the period when a spacecraft is built, undergoes final testing, and is prepared for launch – in
May 2019, as planned.

On the plus side, things like improving the wheels over Curiosity's was seen as a positive improvement.  The rover also appears to be keeping its total mass within limits, or at least doing a better job than Curiosity did before it.  MOXIE, however, apparently had to cancel having an engineering twin on Earth to save some costs.  But even including the MOXIE issues, all the instruments together seemed to be on schedule.

Apparently more hardware was stuck at the readiness level of 5 and slow to mature, mainly regarding the sampling and storing devices.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 01/31/2017 02:22 am
I don't have special insight into the development, but at first glance this does not appear to be that surprising. Look at it this way: everything else on this spacecraft is pretty much a copy of the Curiosity equipment, so we expect that there should be no problems with all that. The only really new thing is the sample collection equipment, and nobody has done that before, so it is not surprising that it would be the equipment experiencing problems.

But we're still several years out from launch, and they still have margin. You write OIG reports to identify problems, and hopefully you do so early. (I'd also add that I've developed a certain amount of skepticism about both IG reports and GAO reports over the years. Oftentimes they "identify" problems that the programs are well aware of and are already fixing. So by the time they publish their report, the problem may no longer exist.)

I'm attaching the pdf here. I suggest that people do that when they can, because hyperlinks disappear.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 01/31/2017 05:54 pm
Space News article based off the OIG report.

http://spacenews.com/technical-risks-threaten-to-delay-mars-2020-mission/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 01/31/2017 06:42 pm
The opening of the report states that “Since 1964, NASA has spent more than $21 billion on missions exploring Mars, including four robotic rovers on the Martian surface, five static landers, and numerous satellite missions orbiting the planet.” That $21 billion is in 2016 dollars.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/01/2017 07:48 am
The opening of the report states that “Since 1964, NASA has spent more than $21 billion on missions exploring Mars, including four robotic rovers on the Martian surface, five static landers, and numerous satellite missions orbiting the planet.” That $21 billion is in 2016 dollars.

That comes to about $400M annually in 2016 dollars. Does that include the launch vehicle cost?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/01/2017 07:53 am
MSL-2 (aka 2020 rover) MSL-2 didn't "really" shed any of the MSL-1 features and instruments, rather these MSL-1 features and instruments have been upgraded and are joined by newly added instruments resulting in a larger rover mass.

It's shed quite a few. CheMin, APX, DAN, SAM, and RAD have no counterpart on 2020.

DAN's been replaced by another subsurface geophysical instrument (RIMFAX), APX by an instrument that provides  equivalent geochem data - PIXL.

Onboard analyses (SAM, ChemMin) have been replaced by sample caching (as per Blackstar's post)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/01/2017 07:54 am
How does this compare with MSL's status in 2005-2006?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: saliva_sweet on 02/07/2017 03:41 pm
Reading into it.  The most damning comment they mention is a lack of confidence in the sampling system within

It seems to me that's a gimmick anyway and would best be dumped. Pretend sample return mission that doesn't further actual sample return at all. Possibly greatly complicates and hinders it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: smfarmer11 on 02/07/2017 05:09 pm
With a realistic retrieval mission coming at least five years after MSL-2's launch, would just leaving samples behind be adequate? Wouldn't weather potentially cover the samples after that long of a time making any retrieval difficult? That being said if you get rid of the sample caching system, you might as well scrap the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/07/2017 05:37 pm
Reading into it.  The most damning comment they mention is a lack of confidence in the sampling system within

It seems to me that's a gimmick anyway and would best be dumped. Pretend sample return mission that doesn't further actual sample return at all. Possibly greatly complicates and hinders it.

Yeah... you don't really understand what this mission is about. Might be best to go and read some more about it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/07/2017 05:41 pm
With a realistic retrieval mission coming at least five years after MSL-2's launch, would just leaving samples behind be adequate? Wouldn't weather potentially cover the samples after that long of a time making any retrieval difficult? That being said if you get rid of the sample caching system, you might as well scrap the mission.

Nope. Not an issue. Apparently Spirit and Opportunity's rover tracks are still visible in MRO images. There's not enough atmosphere on Mars to substantially upset the surface even over many years. In fact, one of the options is to leave the samples in the tracks, because the tracks will be easily visible.

The people who proposed this mission during the planetary science decadal survey, and the people designing the spacecraft right now, know that retrieval of the samples might take 5-10 years, even longer. That's not an issue for the samples. There are some issues, such as making sure that the samples don't cook in the sun, that are a concern. And there are a lot of other issues such as contamination that are also bigger concerns. But having the stuff sit there is not really an issue.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 02/08/2017 02:22 pm
Is there a landing site workshop starting tomorrow?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: as58 on 02/12/2017 09:30 pm
"Three sites where NASA might retrieve its first Mars rock"

http://www.nature.com/news/three-sites-where-nasa-might-retrieve-its-first-mars-rock-1.21470
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/13/2017 07:16 pm
Further to the above NASA press release.

Three potential landing sites for NASA's next Mars rover

Participants in a landing site workshop for NASA’s upcoming Mars 2020 mission have recommended three locations on the Red Planet for further evaluation. The three potential landing sites for NASA’s next Mars rover include Northeast Syrtis (a very ancient portion of Mars’ surface), Jezero crater, (once home to an ancient Martian lake), and Columbia Hills (potentially home to an ancient hot spring, explored by NASA’s Spirit rover).

More information on the landing sites can be found at:

http://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/timeline/prelaunch/landing-site-se...

Mars 2020 is targeted for launch in July 2020 aboard an Atlas V 541 rocket from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. The rover will conduct geological assessments of its landing site on Mars, determine the habitability of the environment, search for signs of ancient Martian life, and assess natural resources and hazards for future human explorers. It will also prepare a collection of samples for possible return to Earth by a future mission.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory will build and manage operations of the Mars 2020 rover for the NASA Science Mission Directorate at the agency's headquarters in Washington.

For more information about NASA's Mars programs, visit:                                 

http://www.nasa.gov/mars

DC Agle
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California
818-393-9011
[email protected]
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/13/2017 08:16 pm
I'm too lazy to dig into this, but are they going to possibly expand the list again and then reevaluate? There's a certain logic to a process that narrows the list, evaluates the options, then opens it up again and looks a second time in light of new data. I think they did that last time with Curiosity, but I think that then it was prompted by missing the 2009 launch window.

It's an interesting process that they use for site selection. The final selection is an engineering one, not a science one. That's because the most important factor of all is getting the vehicle down intact, so those criteria are the ones used for the final decision. This site selection should be more complicated than the last one, because they're looking to get good quality samples, plus they have to consider any retrieval mission to bring them back, so there are more variables. Curiosity has a mission where it can be allowed to die in an inaccessible location (like on top of Mount Sharp), because nothing is coming back.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: as58 on 02/13/2017 09:01 pm
A bit longer write-up in Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/jezero-crater-most-popular-scientific-target-mars-nasa-s-2020-rover

Apparently Jezero crater was the 'clear top candidate'.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/14/2017 12:01 am
A bit longer write-up in Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/jezero-crater-most-popular-scientific-target-mars-nasa-s-2020-rover

Apparently Jezero crater was the 'clear top candidate'.

For overall Mars science I suspect NW Sytris is the best.  For astrobiology Columbia Hills.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: savuporo on 03/07/2017 07:24 pm
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/839198632297574404

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/839195239860555778
Quote
Cassie Conley, current NASA planetary protection officer: Mars 2020 had CDR last week and there are different opinions of its readiness.

John Rummel, fmr NASA Plan Prot Offcr: in Dec, NASA changed internal regs for plan prot for Mars 2020 mission. Removed ref to COSPAR. Why?

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 03/08/2017 12:15 am
A bit longer write-up in Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02/jezero-crater-most-popular-scientific-target-mars-nasa-s-2020-rover

Apparently Jezero crater was the 'clear top candidate'.

For overall Mars science I suspect NW Sytris is the best.  For astrobiology Columbia Hills.

On top of that when you think about it, Columbia Hills also has "ground truth" to it.

I know an argument against the 'Hills is basically "been there done that."  However, when you think about it, if NASA gets serious about sample return, in the end, there's going to be several missions sent to the same spot to retrieve whatever the 2020 rover harvests; on top of 2020 there'll be a lander and another rover sent to the same location just to complete sample return.  If not robotic, a human mission in the end might just walk over and pick up the samples, contamination concerns be damned if the priority is to retrieve quality science.

I'd put the 'Hills and Jezero at the same level.  Whichever of the 3 is picked, ultimately, is going to become a very familiar region for the next ~15 years if MSR is taken seriously.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 03/08/2017 02:13 am
If not robotic, a human mission in the end might just walk over and pick up the samples, contamination concerns be damned if the priority is to retrieve quality science.


This is so completely wrong it's just wrong.

You cannot do "quality science" if you don't give a damn about contamination.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/08/2017 02:33 am
If not robotic, a human mission in the end might just walk over and pick up the samples, contamination concerns be damned if the priority is to retrieve quality science.


This is so completely wrong it's just wrong.

You cannot do "quality science" if you don't give a damn about contamination.

Of course field scientists on Earth are very careful to minimise contamination, when it is appropriate.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/02/2017 05:39 pm
Here's the relevant section.

NASA receives more than $19.6 billion in 2017 omnibus spending bill

Quote
Science programs will receive $5.76 billion in the spending bill, above both the requested $5.6 billion and lower levels in the House and Senate bills. Planetary science wins a large increase, to nearly $1.85 billion, well above the 2017 request of $1.52 billion and the $1.63 billion it received in 2016. That total includes $408 million for the Mars 2020 rover mission, including language directing NASA to add a small helicopter technology demonstration to the mission as long as it does not delay the mission’s launch.

http://spacenews.com/nasa-receives-more-than-19-6-billion-in-2017-omnibus-spending-bill/#sthash.YUSbvZyG.dpuf
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/23/2017 10:35 pm
NASA’s Mars 2020 Rover Artist’s Concept

Quote
Mars 2020 is targeted for launch in July/August 2020, aboard an Atlas V 541 rocket from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

Image on link below.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/pia21635.jpg

https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/jpl/pia21635/nasa-s-mars-2020-rover-artist-s-concept
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/12/2017 10:08 pm
Cross-post:
U.S. House of Representatives
Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 10:00am
Location: 2318 Rayburn House Office Building
Subcommittees: Subcommittee on Space (115th Congress)

Space Subcommittee Hearing- Planetary Flagship Missions: Mars Rover 2020 and Europa Clipper

Quote
Witnesses
Dr. Jim Green

Director, Planetary Science Division, Science Mission Directorate, NASA

Dr. Kenneth Farley

Mars Rover 2020 Project Scientist; Professor of Geochemistry, California Institute of Technology

Dr. Robert Pappalardo

Europa Clipper Project Scientist, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology

Dr. Linda T. Elkins-Tanton

Director and Foundation Professor, School of Earth and Space Exploration, Arizona State University; Principal Investigator, NASA Psyche Mission

Dr. William B. McKinnon

Co-Chair, National Academy of Sciences, Committee on Astrobiology and Planetary Science; Professor of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Washington University in St. Louis

https://science.house.gov/legislation/hearings/space-subcommittee-hearing-planetary-flagship-missions-mars-rover-2020-and
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/18/2017 06:22 pm
Surprised that no one had posted this, or their commentary, yet...

Hearing opens about 25 minutes into the file.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJ5QrR_zj8
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 11/23/2017 06:58 pm
NASA shows off Mars rover tires that bounce back into shape

Quote
The next Mars rover could ride across the alien planet on a new kind of tire that remembers its shape after running over rocks.

https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/nasa-mars-rovers-shape-memory-tires-glenn-research-center/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 11/28/2017 09:42 pm
NEWS | NOVEMBER 28, 2017
NASA Builds its Next Mars Rover Mission

Quote

In just a few years, NASA's next Mars rover mission will be flying to the Red Planet.

At a glance, it looks a lot like its predecessor, the Curiosity Mars rover. But there's no doubt it's a souped-up science machine: It has seven new instruments, redesigned wheels and more autonomy. A drill will capture rock cores, while a caching system with a miniature robotic arm will seal up these samples. Then, they'll be deposited on the Martian surface for possible pickup by a future mission.

This new hardware is being developed at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California, which manages the mission for the agency. It includes the Mars 2020 mission's cruise stage, which will fly the rover through space, and the descent stage, a rocket-powered "sky crane" that will lower it to the planet's surface. Both of these stages have recently moved into JPL's Spacecraft Assembly Facility.

source: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7011
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: TakeOff on 12/02/2017 09:38 am
Surprised that no one had posted this, or their commentary, yet...

Hearing opens about 25 minutes into the file.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJ5QrR_zj8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJ5QrR_zj8)
RohrBacher asks if there were a civilization on Mars thousands of years ago... At 1:22:50.
https://youtu.be/PLJ5QrR_zj8?t=5152 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJ5QrR_zj8?t=5154)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/04/2017 04:52 pm
RohrBacher asks if there were a civilization on Mars thousands of years ago

See thread Dana Rohrabacher--net positive or negative influence on USA space program? (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43410.0)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 12/04/2017 05:33 pm
I poked around to make sure this wasn't already posted. A pretty good talk about the science instruments on the 2020 rover by Ken Williford, Mars 2020 Deputy Project Scientist.

(NOTE: Talk doesn't actually start until ten and a half minutes in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE-2GMUbMvo
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/04/2017 06:15 pm
I'm not that much of a stickler for these things, but there's a whole separate group for Curiosity and Mars 2020. I think that 2020 posts should go there instead of the science group.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/26/2018 06:56 pm
Comparing costs of MSL (Curiosity) and Mars 2020; cross-post:
If you want to put a number on it, Curiosity cost 2.5 billion in nominal dollars, but adding a decade of inflation is more like 2.9 billion (CPI between 2008 and 2018).
Your larger point is correct: The Curiosity project often bought enough parts for Curiosity itself, the engineering unit, and spares.

A nitpick: The latest 2018 GAO report on mission performance put the cost of the 2020 mission at $2,458.2.  Still a savings even given the substantial new engineering for instruments, upgrades (second computer, tougher wheels, etc), and that mildly ( ;) complex sample handling system.  Some major systems (chassis, entry and landing system) are near identical and there were spares such as the heat shield (which was found to have fixable crack if I remember correctly).

And:
If you want to put a number on it, Curiosity cost 2.5 billion in nominal dollars, but adding a decade of inflation is more like 2.9 billion (CPI between 2008 and 2018). Mars 2020 is projected to cost 2.1 billion.

I think your Mars 2020 cost number is low.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/691589.pdf

Page 79 shows it at: $2.458 billion.

Now there's some squish in there. I believe that NASA spent more on instruments than they needed to. And that highlights the fact that cost is not the most important factor when designing a mission, it's the cost vs. what you want to do. One could argue that Mars 2020 should be substantially cheaper than Curiosity, because a big chunk of Curiosity's cost ($400+ million) was due to a schedule delay, and other costs were due to development problems, and Mars 2020 should not have had any of those issues. So one could ask "Why isn't Mars 2020 substantially cheaper than Curiosity?"

EDIT: Thank you for moving this thread to the Curiosity/Mars 2020 sub-forum!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/07/2018 09:17 pm
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/us-plans-mars-should-include-more-sample-return-report-warns

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/08/2018 01:36 am
http://www.leonarddavid.com/report-mars-aging-infrastructure-woes/

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/08/2018 11:05 pm
Was at JPL this morning. Took a photo of Mars 2020 coming together. Rover parts not yet in the big clean room.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lar on 08/09/2018 01:16 pm
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/us-plans-mars-should-include-more-sample-return-report-warns
Thanks for sharing this (and the other one in the next post)

Do you have a view on whether the commentary in these two pieces hits or misses the mark?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 08/09/2018 03:41 pm
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/us-plans-mars-should-include-more-sample-return-report-warns
Thanks for sharing this (and the other one in the next post)

Do you have a view on whether the commentary in these two pieces hits or misses the mark?
I've read the report.  The committee looked at a wide range of topics, and the committee provided its judgement on all of them.  The committee found that NASA's managers have done a pretty good job of trying to execute to the last Decadal Survey with the resources they had.  There are no big red flags.  So different reporters focus their short articles on different ones of the 24 recommendations made by the committee.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/09/2018 07:35 pm
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/us-plans-mars-should-include-more-sample-return-report-warns
Thanks for sharing this (and the other one in the next post)

Do you have a view on whether the commentary in these two pieces hits or misses the mark?

I would suggest that everybody here who is interested read the report themselves. The study director was a wise and knowledgeable expert. Handsome too, and smells like daffodils.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/09/2018 07:40 pm
I've read the report.  The committee looked at a wide range of topics, and the committee provided its judgement on all of them.  The committee found that NASA's managers have done a pretty good job of trying to execute to the last Decadal Survey with the resources they had.  There are no big red flags.  So different reporters focus their short articles on different ones of the 24 recommendations made by the committee.

That's pretty accurate. There are a bunch of recommendations, but some of them are big ones, and others are rather narrow, and some of them are along the lines of "the decadal survey recommended doing X, and we recommend that you continue to do X." Different reporters picked out different things to emphasize, in part because the report does not give the reporters red meat in the form of "NASA is doing a bad job..."

In fact, what you're seeing is sorta one of the foundations of journalism. For weeks now there has been bad news about JWST, and so reporters have been jumping on that story because it is juicy. And then along comes a report that basically says that the planetary science program is well-managed and doing a good job, and a lot of reporters are either bored, or don't know how to write that story.

I think the stuff that the reporters kinda missed is what the committee said about the Europa Lander. There is a subtle, but important point being made there. But read the report yourself and you'll figure it out.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: gosnold on 08/10/2018 02:33 pm
I think the stuff that the reporters kinda missed is what the committee said about the Europa Lander. There is a subtle, but important point being made there. But read the report yourself and you'll figure it out.

That NASA should stick to the decadal and not study missions because they are popular in Congress?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/10/2018 04:08 pm
That NASA should stick to the decadal and not study missions because they are popular in Congress?

I'm going to break that sentence down into three parts.

1-"That NASA..." NASA doesn't get a lot of say in the matter. The agency has to do what the executive and legislative leadership tells them to do. Now NASA does get some say in how they implement things. And external advisory reports can back up NASA when they decide to do things (or swat at them when they don't do things).

2-"and not study missions"  Studying is fine. Studying doesn't cost a lot of money. It's building things that costs money.

3-"are popular in Congress" Congress is not a point source, it is made up of a lot of people, some with much more power than others. When a bill comes out of Congress it is, for all intents and purposes, Congress speaking. But 99% of Congress many not care about some issue and only 1% does.

And all of that points to the importance of building a broad consensus. Big, expensive missions should happen because a lot of people want them to happen.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 08/11/2018 04:07 pm
There's a new description of the Midway landing site that's been posted on the page for the upcoming landing site meeting.

https://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/2018-10/midway_ellipse_development_info_v4.pdf (https://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/2018-10/midway_ellipse_development_info_v4.pdf)

The center of the Midway landing eclipse is 10 km closer to the Jezero eclipse and a mission that lands in one and traverses to the second is considered feasible.  Per the post, "exposures and accessibility of NE Syrtis-type stratigraphy in the Midway ellipse has been deemed roughly equivalent to the original NE Syrtis ellipse by multiple subject matter experts. Multiple safe routes into or out of Jezero crater have been identified by the Mars 2020 Project."
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: gosnold on 08/20/2018 03:22 pm
I'm going to break that sentence down into three parts.

Ok, so the less diplomatic version is that Culbertson should not put money for building a lander unless the decadal recommends it.

Btw spacenews has a piece on the report that is pretty good:
https://spacenews.com/committee-praises-nasas-planetary-science-program-but-raises-some-concerns/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/21/2018 03:34 pm
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2018/0815-national-academies-report-mars-plans.html

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/22/2018 12:21 am
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2018/0815-national-academies-report-mars-plans.html

The article says a lot about the concern for MSR planning and the lack of a new telecoms orbiter again, but it also says that the report speaks glowingly of the Mars 2020 rover's progress:

Quote
Speaking of sample return, the report also examined NASA's progress toward addressing the top recommendation of the decadal survey: a caching rover to start a sample return campaign from Mars. The Mars 2020 rover is deemed to fully meet those recommendations by including a full suite of in-situ scientific instrumentation and a sample caching and preparation system at ⅔ the cost of the original decadal estimate.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 02:20 am

The article says a lot about the concern for MSR planning and the lack of a new telecoms orbiter again, but it also says that the report speaks glowingly of the Mars 2020 rover's progress:


You can always download the report for free and read it yourself. There's a whole chapter on Mars.

I'd add that when we did the decadal survey we didn't really expect the second phase of Mars sample return to begin in this decade. We wanted MAX-C (the caching rover) to happen, and it has in the form of Mars 2020. But what we also wanted to happen was for serious technology development on the ascent vehicle to get underway. That did not happen until last year, nearly halfway through the period covered by the decadal survey. Hopefully that technology development investment continues.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 02:56 am
Was at JPL this morning. Took a photo of Mars 2020 coming together. Rover parts not yet in the big clean room.

I got a bunch more photos, but they don't really show much. The skycrane is visible there and that's complete. They might still be planning some testing on it, but it is assembled. They're bringing together the cruise stage pieces, some of which are at the top right. I have a photo of the left side of the room that has a large circular frame. They attach part of the spacecraft to that and use it to rotate into place. I assumed that it was for the cruise stage, but because the frame is at one side of the room and the cruise stage is at the other side of the room and the skycrane is in between them, I now think that the big circular frame is going to be used for the heat shield. (I have photos I took of Curiosity coming together ca 2008 and I could go look at them since it's the same equipment.)

You can see a bunch of people in bunny suits in the lower left of the photo. When I was there they were practicing with another large frame device. They were practicing how they moved around it, who climbed up on it, and how they rotated it. I don't know what that frame is for. I don't think it is for the rover itself. When they were assembling Curiosity back in 2008, the boxy center section was sitting upside down on a table with a few of its wheels attached. Somehow they rotated it upside down and then rightside up.

When you stand there and look at the spacecraft parts and the handling equipment you start to appreciate that they don't just design a spacecraft. They also design the equipment to handle the spacecraft, and they have to consider the procedures for assembling it. So design is a very iterative process--you cannot simply draw everything on a CAD program and only after you have finished figure out how you will assemble it. What if there's no attachment point for you to pick it up? All that stuff--hooks, holes, strongpoints--has to be worked into the design.

And before you move a very expensive piece of equipment, you practice practice practice.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 03:09 am
I took this photo of the Curiosity assembly process in late October 2008.

What you are seeing:

-Center upper left is the heat shield

-Center foreground is the top of the backshell, which covers the rover

-Center upper left is the frame that they use to rotate Curiosity (this is what they were practicing with two weeks ago, so they were practicing maneuvering Mars 2020 when they start to bring the rover parts in)

-Center upper right is Curiosity, flipped upside down

-Upper far right is the edge of the Skycrane
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 03:12 am
Sorry that this is blurry. This is another photo I took in October 2008. Curiosity is at left, the skycrane is at center, and the solar panels for the cruise stage are at right.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 03:13 am
Here is the heat shield for Curiosity, in October 2008. The Mars 2020 heat shield was not yet in the clean room as of two weeks ago.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 03:18 am
Here is Curiosity in October 2008. It is upside down, and two of the wheels have been attached. Note that at this point things were getting kinda cramped in that clean room. One surprise to me was that they did not have a lot of work room between the rover and the skycrane. They probably did not have too many people working on the rover at any one time because of that. You really don't want somebody to trip and reach for a handhold and break part of the rover or skycrane.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/22/2018 03:26 am
As I noted, I took those photos in late October 2008. The launch window was October 2009. In December 2008 the program concluded that they could not not meet the 2009 launch date. You can find a report from January 2009 here:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/pss/jan92009/presentations/mslTechnicalCook.pdf

I later heard a senior NASA official who came in after the problems state that they (the program) knew that they were not going to make the schedule considerably before December 2008, but that they were burning money like crazy throughout 2008 to try and catch up. He said that if he had been in charge then, he would have postponed the launch at that point (presumably summer 2008?) and come up with a re-plan so that they spent less money over the extra period of time rather than try and rush to meet a date that was impossible. Armchair quarterbacking, but that does not mean he was wrong.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/22/2018 05:53 pm

The article says a lot about the concern for MSR planning and the lack of a new telecoms orbiter again, but it also says that the report speaks glowingly of the Mars 2020 rover's progress:


You can always download the report for free and read it yourself. There's a whole chapter on Mars.

I'd add that when we did the decadal survey we didn't really expect the second phase of Mars sample return to begin in this decade. We wanted MAX-C (the caching rover) to happen, and it has in the form of Mars 2020. But what we also wanted to happen was for serious technology development on the ascent vehicle to get underway. That did not happen until last year, nearly halfway through the period covered by the decadal survey. Hopefully that technology development investment continues.

Could you remind me of the title of the report and where to download it? Thanks.

Edit: Never mind, found it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lar on 08/22/2018 09:01 pm
try searching back through all of Blackstar's posts to see if he posted a link. Or just go into "all" view on the thread and search for .pdf or other typical file names...

Once you found it, maybe post the link too so you save the next person some time?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/22/2018 09:38 pm
try searching back through all of Blackstar's posts to see if he posted a link. Or just go into "all" view on the thread and search for .pdf or other typical file names...

Once you found it, maybe post the link too so you save the next person some time?

Yeah, sorry:

https://www.nap.edu/login.php?record_id=25186

You can either make an account or "download as a guest" from here.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/24/2018 01:44 am
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2018/0815-national-academies-report-mars-plans.html

The article says a lot about the concern for MSR planning and the lack of a new telecoms orbiter again, but it also says that the report speaks glowingly of the Mars 2020 rover's progress:

Quote
Speaking of sample return, the report also examined NASA's progress toward addressing the top recommendation of the decadal survey: a caching rover to start a sample return campaign from Mars. The Mars 2020 rover is deemed to fully meet those recommendations by including a full suite of in-situ scientific instrumentation and a sample caching and preparation system at ⅔ the cost of the original decadal estimate.

So if I'm not mistaken, the original MAX-C was estimated to be around $3.5 Billion. What made it so expensive?
Was it the EDL or the catching mechanism?

(http://www.fourth-millennium.net/mission-artwork/max-c-rover-pallet-lander-drill-scene.jpg)

(http://www.fourth-millennium.net/mission-artwork/max-c-rover-network-drop-package-scene.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nXjRuITJ9m8/SuR5u8u_83I/AAAAAAAAAbU/aR-sLq7K_CI/s400/MAX-C+comparison.jpg)

Looking at the image in the report, the lander for it looks pretty large, but it looks to me like the big difference between the rover and Curiosity is the solar panels in lieu of the MMRTG. I'd think that would make the design cheaper.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 08/24/2018 04:22 pm
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273117718305258

Atmospheric test environments for planetary in-situ missions: Never quite “Test as you fly”
Author links open overlay panelRalph D.Lorenz
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.asr.2018.06.041


Highlights
    Reviews planetary atmosphere tests for probes and landers.
    Notes that perfect similarity (“test as you fly”) is never completely achieved.
    Practical tests achieve similarity for specific process (e.g. heat transfer).
    A few specific instances where composition is important are noted.


Abstract
The planetary atmospheric and surface environments that planetary probes, landers and rovers may encounter cannot be perfectly replicated in tests on Earth. The temperature, pressure and composition of atmospheric test environments for previous missions are reviewed, and the differences between the conditions used in tests and the actual conditions at the target body are discussed. Generally, it has been the practice to replicate only those few key parameters that determine the phenomena of interest, and the effects of gravity and of minor atmospheric constituents are rarely simulated explicitly. Typically tests have been performed in nitrogen atmospheres (rather than carbon dioxide for Mars and Venus) or Helium (instead of hydrogen for Jupiter): exceptions are a handful of specific tests where the composition was considered critical. In-flight thermal anomalies are generally attributable to differences between the static conditions in a test chamber and the dynamic environment of flight, rather than to the composition of test atmospheres.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/30/2018 04:43 pm
I asked about how they planned to deploy the Mars Helicopter without either the 'copter falling off during EDL on the Mars Helicopter thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45676.msg1851159#msg1851159

 and I got this answer:

How exactly do they plan to deploy this thing?
My understanding is that it's attached to the belly pan and dropped off early in the mission (not by the arm) and the rover just drives away.

Now I'm wondering what the ground-clearance of the rover is. I suppose 'tis at least tall enough for it to land properly without the 'copter  being damaged. This question goes for Curiosity too, because they mostly have the same design.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: e of pi on 08/30/2018 05:25 pm
Now I'm wondering what the ground-clearance of the rover is. I suppose 'tis at least tall enough for it to land properly without the 'copter  being damaged. This question goes for Curiosity too, because they mostly have the same design.
About 660 mm nominal:(https://i.stack.imgur.com/lePR8.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lar on 08/31/2018 02:11 pm
Now I'm wondering what the ground-clearance of the rover is. I suppose 'tis at least tall enough for it to land properly without the 'copter  being damaged. This question goes for Curiosity too, because they mostly have the same design.
About 660 mm nominal:(https://i.stack.imgur.com/lePR8.png)
Thanks for that pic. Is that Curiosity (which this is very similar to, so good enough for these purposes) or 2020?

Also, and this might be a bit off center topic wise, do the middle wheels have less spokes, or is that an artifact of the render (middle wheels are at the same rotation but outside wheels are not, and the spokes are offset, so some we see are actually the back side wheel)?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 08/31/2018 02:42 pm


Also, and this might be a bit off center topic wise, do the middle wheels have less spokes, or is that an artifact of the render (middle wheels are at the same rotation but outside wheels are not, and the spokes are offset, so some we see are actually the back side wheel)?
Looking at the angle the struts are attached to the wheels, it looks like the middle wheels might take a lot less force when they hit speed bumps and such than the outer, vertical strut wheels.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: speedevil on 08/31/2018 02:46 pm


Also, and this might be a bit off center topic wise, do the middle wheels have less spokes, or is that an artifact of the render (middle wheels are at the same rotation but outside wheels are not, and the spokes are offset, so some we see are actually the back side wheel)?
Looking at the angle the struts are attached to the wheels with, it looks like the middle wheels might take a lot less force when they hit speed bumps and such than the outer, vertical strut wheels.
Remembering of course at the top speed, it is moving so fast that it takes ten seconds to move one wheel diameter.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 08/31/2018 05:16 pm


Also, and this might be a bit off center topic wise, do the middle wheels have less spokes, or is that an artifact of the render (middle wheels are at the same rotation but outside wheels are not, and the spokes are offset, so some we see are actually the back side wheel)?
Looking at the angle the struts are attached to the wheels, it looks like the middle wheels might take a lot less force when they hit speed bumps and such than the outer, vertical strut wheels.
Remembering of course at the top speed, it is moving so fast that it takes ten seconds to move one wheel diameter.
Good thing there are no speed cameras there.   
 It's also possible that they expect an outer wheel to take up to half the weight of the rover in rough terrain, where a middle one never would for stability reasons. The middle wheels might have more travel up and down, looking at the suspension, to help keep weight on all four outer wheels.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 08/31/2018 09:58 pm
Also, and this might be a bit off center topic wise, do the middle wheels have less spokes, or is that an artifact of the render (middle wheels are at the same rotation but outside wheels are not, and the spokes are offset, so some we see are actually the back side wheel)?
Looking at the angle the struts are attached to the wheels, it looks like the middle wheels might take a lot less force when they hit speed bumps and such than the outer, vertical strut wheels.

I was reading a detailed article about Curiosity's wheel damage by the Planetary Society's Emily Lakdawalla a few years back and she mentioned driving backwards, I figured if I returned to the article, I could at least find out about the spokes, and maybe begin to answer the force disparity question. Turns out the article has all the answers!

First, this article mentions Spirit and Opportunity driving backwards as well (but for different reasons) If anyone is interested:
https://astrobob.areavoices.com/2014/02/22/curiosity-drives-backwards-takes-the-low-road-to-protect-its-wheels/
(Just googling "Curiosity driving backwards" gave me a bunch of pages that were all short news articles answering the "what" and the "where" and the "why", but none answering the "who" or the "how", So I typed in "Curiosity driving backwards Planetary Society" and that gave me what I wanted.

Ms. Lakdawalla's article is from 2014:
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/08190630-curiosity-wheel-damage.html

The third picture from the top answers the spokes' question:

(http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/spacecraft/2014/20140819_suspension_system_diagram.jpg)

And here's the relevant passage from the article that answers the question of unequal forces acting on each of the six wheels:

Quote
It turns out that there are mechanical aspects of the mobility system that actively shove the wheels into pointy rocks. A wheel can resist the force of one-sixth of the rover's weight pressing down on a pointy rock, but it can't resist the rover's weight plus the force imparted by five other wheels shoving the sixth wheel into a pointy rock. The forces are worse for the middle and front wheels than they are for the rear wheels. If you look at the design of the rocker-bogie system, you can see that the arms that support the middle and front wheels are angled downward. If a front or middle wheel hangs up on a rock and the rest of the rover keeps driving, the arm is exerting a downward force on the wheel. But the rear wheel doesn't experience that same downward force -- it's dragged behind the arm, like a wheeled suitcase.

Again, though, these forces were understood before Curiosity launched to Mars, and are not, on their own, enough to cause the large punctures. If the pointy rock can move, all that pushing force behind it will just shift the pointy rock to one side or another, or it can roll beneath the wheel, and the wheel will get over it without damage.

Emphasis (both italics and bold) mine.
Also important:

Quote
Driving backwards. When they turn the rover around, the rover's middle and front wheels are dragged behind their supporting arms rather than being shoved forward. And the angle of the bogie arm that holds the rover's rear wheel is such that it does not experience the same kind of downward forces that the front and middle wheels do when the rover is driving forwards. Heverly showed a video, taken in the JPL Mars Yard, of a test wheel being driven over the sharpened metal spike with the rover driving backwards, and the wheel was only dented, not punctured.
Emphasis Lakdawalla's

Anyways, I hope this helps. I encourage y'all to read the whole article, it is quite interesting.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 08/31/2018 10:08 pm
 I guess we can trust a photo. Every artists conception seems to have different numbers of spokes.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/03/2018 12:01 am
Since someone posted this article upthread:

https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/nasa-mars-rovers-shape-memory-tires-glenn-research-center/

I thought I'd post these articles that discuss it as well:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/259381-nasa-reinvents-wheel-future-mars-rovers
https://phys.org/news/2017-11-mars-rover-wheels-wont-torn.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-memory-metal-wheels-mars-rovers-2017-11

The Business Insider article says that they probably will not be on the Mars 2020 Rover:

Quote
...and Creager said it's probably too late to put them on NASA's upcoming Mars 2020 rover. (It takes a grueling number of tests to prove the viability of a wheel for use on a space mission.)

"You can buy nickel-titanium alloy off the shelf, but you can't just use it on Mars. There's a treatment process," Creager said. Even with years of work, he added, "there's still a lot we need to understand."

The most recent of these articles is from 27 November 2017, so I'm not sure if there have been any new developments since then.

In short, the story behind these tires is that NASA-Glenn started experimenting with nickel-titanium spring tires recently (picking up from where they left off with steel spring tires back in the 2000s) and now (or back in early 2018) they sent them over to JPL for testing.

Here's the tire's own homepage:

https://www.nasa.gov/specials/wheels/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/03/2018 12:02 am
As for the tires, that Mars 2020 will actually be using, they haven't seen much discussion, so I'd thought I'd post something here.

As everyone knows, the tires are thicker than Curiosity's (almost twice as think IIRC) but it also has a different cleat design which is also important.
From the planetary society article that I recently posted (and which was first posted here way upthread):

Quote
The tears result from fatigue. You know how if you bend a metal paper clip back and forth repeatedly, it eventually snaps? Well, when the wheels are driving over a very hard rock surface -- one with no sand -- the thin skin of the wheels repeatedly bends. The wheels were designed to bend quite a lot, and return to their original shape. But the repeated bending and straightening is fatiguing the skin, causing it to fracture in a brittle way. The bending doesn't happen (or doesn't happen as much) if the ground gives way under the rover's weight, as it does if it's got the slightest coating of sand on top of rock. It only happens when the ground is utterly impervious to the rover's weight -- hard bedrock. The stresses from metal fatigue are highest near the tips of the chevron features, and indeed a lot of tears seem to initiate close to the chevron features.
Emphasis Mine

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/08190630-curiosity-wheel-damage.html

So whereas the old design had an alternating cheveron, the new design has a more "streamlined" subtle sine-wave like pattern.

An interesting article about what they've done to address these problems here:
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/to-build-a-wheel-that-lasts-test-on-mars/

This picture says it all:

(http://sciencefriday.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Bitmap2-min.jpg)

Notice how the old-style wheels are all torn-apart or poked through like Swiss cheese, where as the new design is completely unscathed.

NASA's official site, overview of the wheels:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/rover/wheels/

Over here it says that the diameter of the wheels is 52.5 cm (compared to Curiosity's which were 50cm)
(It also clearly depicts them having 6 spokes each  ;) )
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Zed_Noir on 09/03/2018 03:46 pm
As for the tires, that Mars 2020 will actually be using, they haven't seen much discussion, so I'd thought I'd post something here.

As everyone knows, the tires are thicker than Curiosity's (almost twice as think IIRC) but it also has a different cleat design which is also important.

<snip>

Over here it says that the diameter of the wheels is 52.5 cm (compared to Curiosity's which were 50cm)
(It also clearly depicts them having 6 spokes each  ;) )

One must ask. What is the difference in weight between the old and new wheels?

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/03/2018 05:11 pm
As for the tires, that Mars 2020 will actually be using, they haven't seen much discussion, so I'd thought I'd post something here.

As everyone knows, the tires are thicker than Curiosity's (almost twice as think IIRC) but it also has a different cleat design which is also important.

<snip>

Over here it says that the diameter of the wheels is 52.5 cm (compared to Curiosity's which were 50cm)
(It also clearly depicts them having 6 spokes each  ;) )

One must ask. What is the difference in weight between the old and new wheels?

I don't know the answer to that, I do know that someone posted this upthread:

Does Mars 2020 weigh more than Curiosity? I ask that because the extra weight could relate to the upgraded equipment on the rover.

They said on the facebook live update that it will be 1050 kg, about 150 kg heavier than Curiosity

I don't know how much of that extra weight is wheel weight, though.

There's also this:

They discovered a bunch of extra fuel after landing Curiosity and jettisoning off to blow up a safe distance away. The 2020 will not carry as much fuel to bring the 2020 Rover to the surface allowing for a heavier rover.


The Planetary Society article that I quoted a couple posts up said that just 1mm of extra thickness to the wheels adds 10 kg to the weight of the wheels. (I may be misquoting). That of course is if they were using the same aluminium that Curiosity used, which apparently, they aren't
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/03/2018 05:12 pm
When I was out there and observed a wheel test they told us that simply increasing the height of the tread improved the puncture resistance by a large amount. I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was something like 60%. The reason is that it prevents sharp rocks from reaching the surface of the wheel. The rest of the protection came from a thicker wheel, a change in material, and a change in the tread pattern.

What material are they using now? My understanding is that Curiosity was using "aircraft-grade aluminum".
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: AlexA on 09/04/2018 01:16 pm
 [Originally posted in Mars Helicopter thread, as it shows it's stowage location - https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45676.msg1852828#msg1852828 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45676.msg1852828#msg1852828)]

H-res NASA/JPL CG image of Mars 2020 rover, dated 2016-07-15  (via https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/snt?subselect=Mission%3AMars+2020+Rover%3A (https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/snt?subselect=Mission%3AMars+2020+Rover%3A))

(https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA20759.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/05/2018 07:55 am
(https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA20759.jpg)

And a similar image of Curiosity, for comparison:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Drawing-of-the-Mars-Science_Laboratory.png)

Albeit with a different orientation and with the arm extended.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 09/05/2018 01:07 pm
Quote from: @NDRoboticist
Big week for the Mars 2020 Sampling and Caching team. We delivered the engineering model robotic arm! The most capable arm we’ve ever built for a Mars rover.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 09/08/2018 03:56 pm
This and the midterm review are discussed here.

Jason explains the decadal survey around 10 minutes in, Louise shows up about 8 minutes later:

http://www.planetary.org/multimedia/planetary-radio/show/2018/space-policy-edition-29.html

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 09/09/2018 04:14 am
Mars sample return

European Space Agency, ESA
Published on May 2, 2018

Spacecraft in orbit and on Mars’s surface have made many exciting discoveries, transforming our understanding of the planet and unveiling clues to the formation of our Solar System, as well as helping us understand our home planet. The next step is to bring samples to Earth for detailed analysis in sophisticated laboratories where results can be verified independently and samples can be reanalysed as laboratory techniques continue to improve.

Bringing Mars to Earth is no simple undertaking—it would require at least three missions from Earth and one never-been-done-before rocket launch from Mars.

A first mission, NASA’s 2020 Mars Rover, is set to collect surface samples in pen-sized canisters as it explores the Red Planet. Up to 31 canisters will be filled and readied for a later pickup – geocaching gone interplanetary.

In the same period, ESA’s ExoMars rover, which is also set to land on Mars in 2021, will be drilling up to two meters below the surface to search for evidence of life.

A second mission with a small fetch rover would land nearby and retrieve the samples in a Martian search-and-rescue operation. This rover would bring the samples back to its lander and place them in a Mars Ascent Vehicle – a small rocket to launch the football-sized container into Mars orbit.

A third launch from Earth would provide a spacecraft sent to orbit Mars and rendezvous with the sample containers. Once the samples are safely collected and loaded into an Earth entry vehicle, the spacecraft would return to Earth, release the vehicle to land in the United States, where the samples will be retrieved and placed in quarantine for detailed analysis by a team of international scientists.

Credits: NASA/ESA

https://youtu.be/RNnJBKR9lqY?t=001

https://youtu.be/RNnJBKR9lqY
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/11/2018 06:21 am
As promised. (I apologize for the poor quality, but I don't have the ability to grab the source files at the moment, so I'm using screen grabs of our already-compressed pdf of the report.)

... [snip]

[Update: just FYI, this is referred to as the Orbital Sample vehicle, or the OS.]

How does the arm(s) on the MAV lander and/or the fetch rover grab the Orb of Truth here? I don't see any obvious attach points, like what we see on ISS, Hubble, etc.

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/14/2018 08:36 am
Here's a fun idea:

Because the Mars 2020 rover leaves a trail of small sample cores for a later fetch rover to pick up, they should name the Mars 2020 rover "Hansel", and they should name the fetch rover "Gretel".  ;D

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 09/16/2018 05:06 pm
Here's a fun idea:

Because the Mars 2020 rover leaves a trail of small sample cores for a later fetch rover to pick up, they should name the Mars 2020 rover "Hansel", and they should name the fetch rover "Gretel".  ;D
Actually the plan is to establish one or two caches of many sample tubes.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jbenton on 09/17/2018 01:51 am
Here's a fun idea:

Because the Mars 2020 rover leaves a trail of small sample cores for a later fetch rover to pick up, they should name the Mars 2020 rover "Hansel", and they should name the fetch rover "Gretel".
Actually the plan is to establish one or two caches of many sample tubes.

It's going to drop them into two piles? I guess that makes it easier for the fetch rover to do its job. I thought part of the point was to reduce risk for Mars 2020: if it gets stuck in a rut at least some of the samples would be off-board.
I guess this is kind of a compromise between the original idea of having Mars 2020 fill up a canister with the samples and the idea of leaving a trail of cores.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 09/17/2018 03:27 pm
Here's a fun idea:

Because the Mars 2020 rover leaves a trail of small sample cores for a later fetch rover to pick up, they should name the Mars 2020 rover "Hansel", and they should name the fetch rover "Gretel".
Actually the plan is to establish one or two caches of many sample tubes.

It's going to drop them into two piles? I guess that makes it easier for the fetch rover to do its job. I thought part of the point was to reduce risk for Mars 2020: if it gets stuck in a rut at least some of the samples would be off-board.
I guess this is kind of a compromise between the original idea of having Mars 2020 fill up a canister with the samples and the idea of leaving a trail of cores.

Didn't I post slides about that upstream? We got a good explanation for the sample deposit strategy back in spring. I don't remember the specifics, but they were thinking about establishing safe areas where they would drop the samples. But I suspect that this will be somewhat dynamic based upon what they encounter on the surface. For instance, if the rover gets momentarily stuck somewhere, they will probably not want to risk getting stuck again with samples onboard, so they might get unstuck, return to a safe area, and drop their samples even if that's not the original plan. Then they would proceed. The philosophy is to not build up too much risk of losing a bunch of samples.
I don't have all my files with me at work, so can't post the appropriate slide.  From memory, the current thinking is that the 2020 rover will explore and sample two distinct areas near it's landing site.  After it completes its work in the first, it will travel to the second and deposit its collected sample tubes.  It will then collect the new samples in the second area and deposit them with the first set of samples.  That way, the fetch rover needs to travel to just one location to pick up the samples.

The goal for the fetch rover is to get the samples as quickly as possible.  If the 2020 rover dropped them as it went, then the fetch rover would need to retrace a substantial portion of the 2020 rover's path.  This would be especially problematic if NASA decides to use the Midway site and then go into the crater because they are several kilometers apart.

There is also talk that if the fetch mission will launch in the mid-2020s of keeping the samples on the 2020 rover and having it deliver the samples to the ascent vehicle.  In this strategy, the fetch rover would still be delivered but not depending on it eliminates the risk of failure in an untried mechanism.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 10/10/2018 04:41 am
Mars 2020 rover progress:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As41hXu7xYA
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 10/18/2018 06:28 am
Scientists to Debate Landing Site for Next Mars Rover (https://www.astrobio.net/also-in-news/scientists-to-debate-landing-site-for-next-mars-rover/amp/)

Quote
Hundreds of scientists and Mars-exploration enthusiasts will convene in a hotel ballroom just north of Los Angeles later this week to present, discuss and deliberate the future landing site for NASA’s next Red Planet rover – Mars 2020. The three-day workshop is the fourth and final in a series designed to ensure NASA receives the broadest range of data and opinion from the scientific community before the agency chooses where to send the new rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Perchlorate on 10/18/2018 11:16 am
Here's a fun idea:

Because the Mars 2020 rover leaves a trail of small sample cores for a later fetch rover to pick up, they should name the Mars 2020 rover "Hansel", and they should name the fetch rover "Gretel".  ;D

Last 3 rovers have names that are nouns representing positive traits or characteristics of exploration and risk taking (Spirit, Opportunity, Curiosity).

I propose that Mars 2020 be christened "Diligence" in that same vein.

(Then, every time it accomplishes something significant, the mission team can hoist a couple of cold ones and say "Dilly, dilly!")

 ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 10/18/2018 09:51 pm
And the votes are in.... no, not for the name, but for the landing site.  Jezero crater and the nearby Midway ellipse are favoured (with an extended mission to the other).  NE Syrtis second, and Columbia Hills is out.

This is only advisory at this stage, not binding.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 10/22/2018 06:09 pm
 Scientists Double Down on Landing Sites for Sample-Collecting Mars Rover (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-double-down-on-landing-sites-for-sample-collecting-mars-rover/)

Quote
By the workshop’s conclusion, the combined tallies suggested a consensus preference for a hybrid approach—one in which the Mars 2020 rover would visit and explore the dry lakebeds and deltas of Jezero Crater as well as the ancient rocks of the Midway site, which is only some 28 kilometers away. That’s not too far, as the crow flies, but still a potentially tall order for a robotic rover trundling across uneven alien terrain. Making the trek would be a stretch goal for the rover, as the traverse could easily require time in excess of its 2.35-year primary mission. Also, even though this two-for-one approach is scientifically compelling, it is not set in stone: The decision of where exactly to send Mars 2020 rests with NASA’s top scientist, Thomas Zurbuchen, who is expected to review the workshop’s findings and announce his choice by year’s end. His review will then go up the NASA leadership chain for a final announcement.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 10/27/2018 01:30 am
Mars 2020 Parachute a Go

Source:  JPL Newsletter (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7269)


Quote
In the early hours of Sept. 7, NASA broke a world record.

Less than 2 minutes after the launch of a 58-foot-tall (17.7-meter) Black Brant IX sounding rocket, a payload separated and began its dive back through Earth's atmosphere. When onboard sensors determined the payload had reached the appropriate height and Mach number (38 kilometers altitude, Mach 1.8 ), the payload deployed a parachute. Within four-tenths of a second, the 180-pound parachute billowed out from being a solid cylinder to being fully inflated.

It was the fastest inflation in the history of a parachute this size and created a peak load of almost 70,000 pounds of force.

Video reference in article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAgnQ9K7UY?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAgnQ9K7UY

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 10/27/2018 08:06 pm
Scientists call for ‘mega-mission’ to find ancient life on Mars (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/27/mega-mission-mars-ancient-life-nasa-rovers-sample-return)

Quote
American rocket engineers are being urged to push their next Mars mission to the limits of technological performance. Space scientists have told Nasa they want the agency to “dream big” to ensure their new robot rover, scheduled for launch in 2020, visits a maximum number of sites to increase chances of uncovering signs of ancient life on Mars.

Quote
“The community prefers a mega-mission,” said Bethany Ehlmann, a planetary scientist at the California Institute of Technology, quoted in Nature this month. “If we are going to do a sample return, it has to be a sample cache for the ages.”

Quote
Around 2026, Nasa plans to launch a follow-up mission that would land a rocket launcher and new robot craft, called Fetch Rover, on Mars. Fetch Rover will gather up the caches and deliver them back to the rocket, which will then blast the samples into orbit round Mars. There it will rendezvous with an orbiter to carry the samples back to Earth.

“We will have the strictest quarantine conditions enforced when we collect and store those samples,” said Golombek. “It will be worth the effort and expense, however. This is going to be our best chance of finding out if life evolved independently on another world and that life here is not just a lucky accident.”
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Zed_Noir on 10/28/2018 07:56 pm
Scientists call for ‘mega-mission’ to find ancient life on Mars (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/27/mega-mission-mars-ancient-life-nasa-rovers-sample-return)

Quote
American rocket engineers are being urged to push their next Mars mission to the limits of technological performance. Space scientists have told Nasa they want the agency to “dream big” to ensure their new robot rover, scheduled for launch in 2020, visits a maximum number of sites to increase chances of uncovering signs of ancient life on Mars.

Quote
“The community prefers a mega-mission,” said Bethany Ehlmann, a planetary scientist at the California Institute of Technology, quoted in Nature this month. “If we are going to do a sample return, it has to be a sample cache for the ages.”

Quote
Around 2026, Nasa plans to launch a follow-up mission that would land a rocket launcher and new robot craft, called Fetch Rover, on Mars. Fetch Rover will gather up the caches and deliver them back to the rocket, which will then blast the samples into orbit round Mars. There it will rendezvous with an orbiter to carry the samples back to Earth.

“We will have the strictest quarantine conditions enforced when we collect and store those samples,” said Golombek. “It will be worth the effort and expense, however. This is going to be our best chance of finding out if life evolved independently on another world and that life here is not just a lucky accident.”

start ::)

Unless Bethany Ehlmann think that the US Congress is going to substantially increase the budget of your current Mars rover of about $2B. This is just wishful thinking.

This is another example of some in NASA trying to gold-plated a program.

end ::)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 10/28/2018 08:33 pm
Thanks for sharing!  But this isn't about a bigger rover, it's about choosing a mega-mission plan with the same rover.  Landing at Jezero and driving to Midway, or the reverse, rather than choosing just one site.  A bigger range of samples and several interesting strategies for designing the cache for that scenario.  It's all in the recently concluded Mars 2020 landing site workshop.

https://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/wkshp_2018_10.cfm (https://marsnext.jpl.nasa.gov/workshops/wkshp_2018_10.cfm)

The scientists preferred this option, now it has to be sold to NASA.  You can safely ignore a sprinkling of journalist-style hype which crept into that report.  No gold-plating required. 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hop on 10/28/2018 08:36 pm
Unless Bethany Ehlmann think that the US Congress is going to substantially increase the budget of your current Mars rover of about $2B. This is just wishful thinking.
If you read the context of the original quote (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07064-y), it's clear Dr Ehlmann was commenting on the type and ambitiousness of the landing sites that got the most votes in the workshop, not arguing for additional missions or funding.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 10/28/2018 08:46 pm
Unless Bethany Ehlmann think that the US Congress is going to substantially increase the budget of your current Mars rover of about $2B. This is just wishful thinking.
If you read the context of the original quote (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07064-y), it's clear Dr Ehlmann was commenting on the type and ambitiousness of the landing sites that got the most votes in the workshop, not arguing for additional missions or funding.

I thought that was clear from the article?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/17/2018 12:57 am
I think this is the first time I have seen the landing of Mars 2020 pinpointed on a specific day: February 18, 2021.

https://twitter.com/icancallubetty/status/1063570378583232512
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: dsmillman on 11/19/2018 06:52 am
    November 16, 2018
MEDIA ADVISORY M18-174
NASA to Host Media Call on Agency's Next Mars Rover Landing Site
 
Mars, as seen by Mars Global Surveyor in 2003.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech/MSSS
Full image and caption

NASA will host a media teleconference at noon EST Monday, Nov. 19, to provide details about the Mars 2020 rover’s landing site on the Red Planet.
The rover, currently under construction at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), will address high-priority science goals for Mars exploration, including key questions about the potential for ancient life on Mars. The rover’s arrival also will set the stage for NASA’s Mars exploration for the next decade by collecting samples and caching them on the surface for a future mission that could retrieve and return them to Earth for extensive study. Mars 2020 will also further aid in NASA’s preparations for a crewed mission to the Red Planet.
The teleconference participants are:
•   Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator of NASA’s Science Mission Directorate
•   Lori Glaze, acting director of NASA’s Planetary Science Division
•   Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA’s Mars Exploration Program
•   Ken Farley, Mars 2020 project scientist at JPL
For dial-in information, media must send their name, affiliation and phone number to JoAnna Wendel at [email protected] no later than 11:45 a.m. Nov. 19.
Questions can be submitted via Twitter during the teleconference using the hashtag #askNASA.
Teleconference audio and visuals will stream live at:
https://www.nasa.gov/live
For more information about NASA’s Mars 2020 mission, visit:
https://www.nasa.gov/mars
-end-
    Press Contacts
Dwayne Brown / JoAnna Wendel
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1726 / 202-358-1003
[email protected] / [email protected]

DC Agle
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
818-393-9011
[email protected]

    NASA news releases and other information are available automatically by sending an e-mail message with the subject line subscribe to [email protected]
To unsubscribe from the list, send an e-mail message with the subject line unsubscribe to [email protected]
 
    

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/19/2018 04:12 pm
Jezero Crater is the winner for site selection.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/19/2018 04:40 pm
Is anyone taking notes?  I "tuned in" late...

Q&A
Emily W asked about launch window and landing window:
Launch window opens July 17, 2020
Landing scheduled for February 18, 2021

Leonard D asked: Is there a back-up for Mars 2020?
Summed up: No.

Attached: Media teleconference materials
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/19/2018 05:34 pm
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-announces-landing-site-for-mars-2020-rover

Nov. 19, 2018
RELEASE 18-103
NASA Announces Landing Site for Mars 2020 Rover
(image here)
On ancient Mars, water carved channels and transported sediments to form fans and deltas within lake basins. Examination of spectral data acquired from orbit show that some of these sediments have minerals that indicate chemical alteration by water. Here in Jezero Crater delta, sediments contain clays and carbonates. The image combines information from two instruments on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, the Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars and the Context Camera.
Credits: NASA/JPL/JHUAPL/MSSS/Brown University


NASA has chosen Jezero Crater as the landing site for its upcoming Mars 2020 rover mission after a five year search, during which every available detail of more than 60 candidate locations on the Red Planet was scrutinized and debated by the mission team and the planetary science community.

The rover mission is scheduled to launch in July 2020 as NASA’s next step in exploration of the Red Planet. It will not only seek signs of ancient habitable conditions – and past microbial life -- but the rover also will collect rock and soil samples and store them in a cache on the planet's surface. NASA and ESA (European Space Agency) are studying future mission concepts to retrieve the samples and return them to Earth, so this landing site sets the stage for the next decade of Mars exploration.

“The landing site in Jezero Crater offers geologically rich terrain, with landforms reaching as far back as 3.6 billion years old, that could potentially answer important questions in planetary evolution and astrobiology,” said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for NASA’s Science Mission Directorate. “Getting samples from this unique area will revolutionize how we think about Mars and its ability to harbor life.”

Jezero Crater is located on the western edge of Isidis Planitia, a giant impact basin just north of the Martian equator. Western Isidis presents some of the oldest and most scientifically interesting landscapes Mars has to offer. Mission scientists believe the 28-mile-wide (45-kilometer) crater, once home to an ancient river delta, could have collected and preserved ancient organic molecules and other potential signs of microbial life from the water and sediments that flowed into the crater billions of years ago.

Jezero Crater’s ancient lake-delta system offers many promising sampling targets of at least five different kinds of rock, including clays and carbonates that have high potential to preserve signatures of past life. In addition, the material carried into the delta from a large watershed may contain a wide variety of minerals from inside and outside the crater.

The geologic diversity that makes Jezero so appealing to Mars 2020 scientists also makes it a challenge for the team’s entry, descent and landing (EDL) engineers. Along with the massive nearby river delta and small crater impacts, the site contains numerous boulders and rocks to the east, cliffs to the west, and depressions filled with aeolian bedforms (wind-derived ripples in sand that could trap a rover) in several locations.

“The Mars community has long coveted the scientific value of sites such as Jezero Crater, and a previous mission contemplated going there, but the challenges with safely landing were considered prohibitive,” said Ken Farley, project scientist for Mars 2020 at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory. “But what was once out of reach is now conceivable, thanks to the 2020 engineering team and advances in Mars entry, descent and landing technologies.”

When the landing site search began, mission engineers already had refined the landing system such that they were able to reduce the Mars 2020 landing zone to an area 50 percent smaller than that for the landing of NASA’s Curiosity rover at Gale Crater in 2012. This allowed the science community to consider more challenging landing sites. The sites of greatest scientific interest led NASA to add a new capability called Terrain Relative Navigation (TRN). TRN will enable the “sky crane” descent stage, the rocket-powered system that carries the rover down to the surface, to avoid hazardous areas.

The site selection is dependent upon extensive analyses and verification testing of the TRN capability. A final report will be presented to an independent review board and NASA Headquarters in the fall of 2019.

“Nothing has been more difficult in robotic planetary exploration than landing on Mars,” said Zurbuchen. “The Mars 2020 engineering team has done a tremendous amount of work to prepare us for this decision.  The team will continue their work to truly understand the TRN system and the risks involved, and we will review the findings independently to reassure we have maximized our chances for success.”

Selecting a landing site this early allows the rover drivers and science operations team to optimize their plans for exploring Jezero Crater once the rover is safely on the ground. Using data from NASA’s fleet of Mars orbiters, they will map the terrain in greater detail and identify regions of interest – places with the most interesting geological features, for example – where Mars 2020 could collect the best science samples.

The Mars 2020 Project at JPL manages rover development for SMD. NASA's Launch Services Program, based at the agency's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, is responsible for launch management. Mars 2020 will launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

For more information on Mars 2020, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars2020

More information about NASA's exploration of Mars is available online at:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars

-end-
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: slavvy on 11/19/2018 06:05 pm
Crater Jezero is named after a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The word "jezero" also means "lake". And it is pronounced 'yeh-zeh-raw'. In any case, the 'J' always like 'y' in 'you', never like 'j' in 'jeep'.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 11/19/2018 10:06 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/11/19/nasas-next-mars-rover-will-look-signs-life-an-ancient-crater-lake/?utm_term=.7a7494d59983


NASA’s next Mars rover will look for signs of life on an ancient crater lake
By Sarah Kaplan and Ben Guarino
November 19 at 1:33 PM

In a search for ancient life on Mars, NASA will send its next rover to explore Jezero Crater — the site of a former delta and lake.

The rover, which is scheduled to launch in 2020, is equipped with a drilling system that can collect and store rock samples that contain clues to Mars’s ancient past. Once the samples are cached, NASA hopes to send follow-up missions to retrieve the samples and return them to Earth.

“Getting samples from this lake-delta system will revolutionize how we think about Mars and its ability to harbor life,” said Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA’s associate administrator for science.

The landing site selection came after years of research and days of fierce debate over the best spot to look for evidence of ancient life on an alien world. Among the alternatives being considered were Columbia Hills, an ancient hot spring that was explored by the now-defunct rover Spirit, and Northeast Syrtis, a network of ancient mesas that may have harbored underground water.



Also, a very big article about the options. Appears in the print edition today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/health-science/life-on-mars/?utm_term=.6590ad39fef4
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/20/2018 12:29 am
It was a tough pick, but it is good they selected a region that makes sense.  This makes 3 crater lakes for 3 rovers now, not that I oppose such picks.  Hopefully the carbonates yield the next best thing to fossils for Mars.

Thinking ahead, how much effect will Jezero's location have on the next phase of MSR both in latitude and local terrain?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/20/2018 04:08 pm
It was a tough pick, but it is good they selected a region that makes sense.  This makes 3 crater lakes for 3 rovers now, not that I oppose such picks.  Hopefully the carbonates yield the next best thing to fossils for Mars.

Thinking ahead, how much effect will Jezero's location have on the next phase of MSR both in latitude and local terrain?
Given that the primary focus of the Mars 2020 is astrobiological, Jezero's selection makes sense.  NASA's officials in the call made it clear, however, that an extended mission to explore the older terrains of Midway was not ruled out.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: worldtimedate on 11/20/2018 10:50 pm
NASA picks ancient Martian river delta for rover landing : (https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/nasa-picks-ancient-martian-river-delta-for-rover-landing/article25549936.ece)

NASA has picked an ancient river delta as the landing site for its uncrewed Mars 2020 rover, to hunt for evidence of past life on the earth's neighbouring planet, officials said on Monday. Even though the Red Planet is now cold and dry, the landing site, Jezero Crater, was filled with a 500-meter deep lake that opened to a network of rivers some 3.5 to 3.9 billion years ago. "The delta is a good place for evidence of life to be deposited and then preserved for the billions of years that have elapsed since this lake was present," Ken Farley, Mars 2020 project scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, told reporters on a conference call.

Experts believe the 45-km wide basin could have collected and preserved ancient organic molecules and other signs of microbial life. At least five different kinds of rocks, including "clays and carbonates that have high potential to preserve signatures of past life," are believed to lie in the crater, just north of the Martian equator, the US space agency said in a statement. Carbonate rock is produced by the interaction of water, atmospheric gases and rock, and leaves clues about habitable environments, said Farley.

Scientists have debated where to land the rover for the past four years, and whittled down their decision from more than 60 possible sites. The $2.5 billion rover is planned to launch in July 2020, and land in February 2021. Mars 2020 is designed to land inside the crater and collect samples that will eventually be returned to Earth for further analysis, perhaps by the later 2020s.

Perilous landing

But first, the rover has to make it to the surface intact and upright, dodging a field of boulders, sand traps and the edges of the delta. Mars 2020 will use the same sky crane landing that successfully delivered NASA's unmanned Curiosity rover to a location called Gale Crater on Mars back in 2012. Gale Crater, with its many layers of sediment, was chosen to tell the story of how Mars transitioned from a warm, wet planet to the frigid and dusty one it is today.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/20/2018 10:57 pm
Thinking ahead, how much effect will Jezero's location have on the next phase of MSR both in latitude and local terrain?

So long as the next phase has similar capabilities as the 2020 rover in terms of latitude and landing requirements, it should not be a problem
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FishDaddyFlex on 11/27/2018 03:46 am
Mars 2020 Parachute a Go

Source:  JPL Newsletter (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7269)


Quote
In the early hours of Sept. 7, NASA broke a world record.

Less than 2 minutes after the launch of a 58-foot-tall (17.7-meter) Black Brant IX sounding rocket, a payload separated and began its dive back through Earth's atmosphere. When onboard sensors determined the payload had reached the appropriate height and Mach number (38 kilometers altitude, Mach 1.8 ), the payload deployed a parachute. Within four-tenths of a second, the 180-pound parachute billowed out from being a solid cylinder to being fully inflated.

It was the fastest inflation in the history of a parachute this size and created a peak load of almost 70,000 pounds of force.

Video reference in article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAgnQ9K7UY?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcAgnQ9K7UY


As I understand, this parachute can handle more than the last MSL parachute and seems to work very well(opens quickly), but does anyone know any more detailed specs....also wondering how this how this parachute compares to the LDSD tests?


The LDSD parachute was 30 meters in diameter and potentially designed for 2-3 ton payloads and/or higher altitudes and/or higher speeds.  From what I can tell LDSD proved the inflatable decelerators are useful.  LDSD however also implied that parachutes are not going to be useful for supersonic payloads much heavier than MSL and its going to be supersonic retropropulsion for anything bigger.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/ldsd/overview.html

For comparison I believe the MSL parachute was 16 meters in diameter, can handle mach 2.2 and 65,000 lbs of drag.  This most recent test was at Mach 1.8 and generated 67,000 lbs of force.  I am still not sure of the diameter of the most recent parachute test.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/images/msl-20090414.html


Edit after doing more research.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 12/06/2018 09:26 pm
NASA’s next Mars rover will use AI to be a better science partner]NASA’s next Mars rover will use AI to be a better science partner (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/12/unite-day2-2/)

Quote
NASA can't yet put a scientist on Mars. But in its next rover mission to the red planet, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory is hoping to use artificial intelligence to at least put the equivalent of a talented research assistant there. Steve Chien, head of the AI Group at NASA JPL, envisions working with the Mars 2020 Rover "much more like [how] you would interact with a graduate student instead of a rover that you typically have to micromanage."
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/07/2018 11:52 am

As I understand, this parachute can handle more than the last MSL parachute and seems to work very well(opens quickly), but does anyone know any more detailed specs....also wondering how this how this parachute compares to the LDSD tests?


So there's a lot more to that story than simply the difference in sizes and the weight they can handle. I don't know if this story has been published before, although it has been talked about publicly.

When the LDSD parachute tests failed it created a problem for NASA. The MSL parachute (which worked) and the LDSD parachute tests (which failed) used the same computer model, which predicted that they would all be successful. So NASA suddenly got worried that maybe the MSL parachute was a fluke. Maybe this thing would fail 50% of the time and they could have lost MSL. The computer model was flawed, and so they needed to do a bunch more tests to improve the model. You might have seen some questions on the internet a few years ago about why they were doing more tests even though the MSL parachute had worked. That was why.



Addendum: I heard this discussed in public, but I don't know if there's an article about it anywhere. I expect that somebody will write it up for an AIAA paper or something, because it was a unique case, and they actually did tests specifically to improve a simulation. What do you do when the vehicle works, but the computer model you used is unreliable?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FishDaddyFlex on 12/07/2018 01:34 pm

As I understand, this parachute can handle more than the last MSL parachute and seems to work very well(opens quickly), but does anyone know any more detailed specs....also wondering how this how this parachute compares to the LDSD tests?


So there's a lot more to that story than simply the difference in sizes and the weight they can handle. I don't know if this story has been published before, although it has been talked about publicly.

When the LDSD parachute tests failed it created a problem for NASA. The MSL parachute (which worked) and the LDSD parachute tests (which failed) used the same computer model, which predicted that they would all be successful. So NASA suddenly got worried that maybe the MSL parachute was a fluke. Maybe this thing would fail 50% of the time and they could have lost MSL. The computer model was flawed, and so they needed to do a bunch more tests to improve the model. You might have seen some questions on the internet a few years ago about why they were doing more tests even though the MSL parachute had worked. That was why.


Thanks for the new info (new to me at least).   Just guessing here, but I am assuming the most recent 2020 rover parachute tests verified that the MSL parachute was likely not a fluke, but that their computer model does not scale up to the LDSD parachute tests.  As I understand it, after LDSD, NASA has decided anything larger than MSL is probably landing using retropropulsion and maybe the inflatable LDSD ring around the capsule, but no parachute.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/07/2018 07:14 pm
To be honest, I heard about this before they were going to do new tests. I assume that the new tests either validated the computer model or led them to tweak it to make it for accurate. It was my understanding that they were going to do other tests and not simply a Mars 2020 parachute test. They were looking to feed more data into their model.

Parachutes are tricky things to model on a computer. They're fabric, not a rigid surface, and the airflow is really complex (I don't know if it is technically "chaotic," but it's bad).

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/07/2018 08:01 pm
I read a recent article - https://www.wired.com/story/the-supersonic-parachutes-carrying-nasas-martian-dreams/ (https://www.wired.com/story/the-supersonic-parachutes-carrying-nasas-martian-dreams/) - that they spent several months digging around for the videos of the old Viking parachute tests, which they eventually found (a retiree had donated them to a museum), so they'd have more IRL test data for their models.

There is not much in the way of data for large parachute tests, and as you rightly say, the behavior is very complex (both the parachute and the air is moving, and both are interacting with the other) and very difficult to model.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/07/2018 08:41 pm
I read a recent article - https://www.wired.com/story/the-supersonic-parachutes-carrying-nasas-martian-dreams/ (https://www.wired.com/story/the-supersonic-parachutes-carrying-nasas-martian-dreams/) - that they spent several months digging around for the videos of the old Viking parachute tests, which they eventually found (a retiree had donated them to a museum), so they'd have more IRL test data for their models.

There is not much in the way of data for large parachute tests, and as you rightly say, the behavior is very complex (both the parachute and the air is moving, and both are interacting with the other) and very difficult to model.

National Geographic Channel did a documentary about the Curiosity lander. I think they originally did it in 2011 and recently updated it. It has some fantastic footage of the MSL parachute tests. High resolution and slow motion, showing the deployment issues. They had problems in wind tunnel testing. I believe that the first chute burst, then the second one opened fine. They needed to reproduce the burst. Eventually they added something to the chute to slow how it opened and that prevented bursting. Anyway, the footage was great. See if you can locate it online.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: DaveS on 12/08/2018 12:29 am
Here's a three-part video of the MSL supersonic parachute testing and qualification published by JPL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7vf2HUMMdo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7vf2HUMMdo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRRcbZlofOk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRRcbZlofOk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJamPhtRjA
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mcgyver on 12/17/2018 07:32 am
https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/11/19/nasas-next-mars-rover-will-look-signs-life-an-ancient-crater-lake/?utm_term=.7a7494d59983 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2018/11/19/nasas-next-mars-rover-will-look-signs-life-an-ancient-crater-lake/?utm_term=.7a7494d59983)


NASA’s next Mars rover will look for signs of life on an ancient crater lake
Will Mars 2020 be authorized to explore sites possibly hosting current forms of life?
I read that initially MSL was supposed to (also) do that, but once the chance actually occurred to explore such a site, rover was declared as "not enough sterilized" to explore a site with possible living Mars organisms, because it would have contaminated it.
Which will it be the Mars 2020 approach to current martian microbes?



Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/17/2018 12:29 pm

Will Mars 2020 be authorized to explore sites possibly hosting current forms of life?
I read that initially MSL was supposed to (also) do that, but once the chance actually occurred to explore such a site, rover was declared as "not enough sterilized" to explore a site with possible living Mars organisms, because it would have contaminated it.
Which will it be the Mars 2020 approach to current martian microbes?

How would we know?

I think what you're getting at is will Mars 2020 be allowed to visit possibly wet locations on Mars.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mcgyver on 12/17/2018 12:40 pm

Will Mars 2020 be authorized to explore sites possibly hosting current forms of life?
I read that initially MSL was supposed to (also) do that, but once the chance actually occurred to explore such a site, rover was declared as "not enough sterilized" to explore a site with possible living Mars organisms, because it would have contaminated it.
Which will it be the Mars 2020 approach to current martian microbes?

How would we know?

I think what you're getting at is will Mars 2020 be allowed to visit possibly wet locations on Mars.
MSL is not authorized to visit wet location because "it could contaminate locations hosting possible local microbial life".
Hence, we're saying same thing (because currently "exo-life existence possibility" and "water presence" are usually used as synonyms).

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/17/2018 12:51 pm
Maybe you need to re-phrase your question for clarity.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 12/20/2018 08:03 pm
 DPA Will Be First Microphone Company to Broadcast from Mars (Seriously) (http://www.ravepubs.com/dpa-will-first-microphone-company-broadcast-mars-truth/)

Quote
DPA’s d:dicate 4006 Omnidirectional Microphone will capture the audio while the MMA-A Digital Audio Interface will be used to record and send audio to a computer through its USB connection. Both mics will be paired with MMP-G Modular Active Cables, which act as ultra-transparent preamplifiers. The Mars 2020 spacecraft is currently being assembled at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California and the DPA products will be installed onto the vehicle in early 2019.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: joseph.a.navin on 12/30/2018 03:43 pm
I heard from a lecture in 2016 that Curiosity only has like five or so years left due to the power source degrading. What is the expected lifespan of the Mars2020 rover?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 12/30/2018 05:34 pm
Presumably it's going to be very similar to the lifetime for Curiosity. The Pu-238 in the MMRTGs can be blended for specific heat output, meaning that they can make an RTG run hotter and longer if necessary for the mission. However, considering the way that the rovers work, with the RTGs powering batteries during nighttime, and considering that the rovers are very similar, it seems unlikely that they could change the MMRTG's power output without requiring changes to the rover, which of course costs more money.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 12/30/2018 09:22 pm
Presumably it's going to be very similar to the lifetime for Curiosity. The Pu-238 in the MMRTGs can be blended for specific heat output, meaning that they can make an RTG run hotter and longer if necessary for the mission. However, considering the way that the rovers work, with the RTGs powering batteries during nighttime, and considering that the rovers are very similar, it seems unlikely that they could change the MMRTG's power output without requiring changes to the rover, which of course costs more money.
That's long enough that 2021 should see four operating rovers on Mars: Curiosity, Mars 2020, ExoMars, and the Chinese mission.  I was hoping for five... depends I guess on whether its just a problem of too much dust on Oppy's cells or a temperature-related permanent fault.

Also, Curiosity's (and eventually Mars 2020's) declines will be slow.  It will take longer and longer to charge the batteries, and hence operations and travel will stretch out.  If you look at the discussions of Curiosity extended missions, they talk about what can be done before this slow down starts to seriously affect operations.  Eventually, we'll get a stationary lander for some period of time.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 12/30/2018 11:18 pm
I heard from a lecture in 2016 that Curiosity only has like five or so years left due to the power source degrading.
The MMRTG has a minimum design lifetime of 17 years after fueling (where I think that's defined as output power down to 50% of initial).  I'm not sure exactly when MSL's RTG was fueled (before or after the launch slip) but if it was in 2008 then the design life is reached in 2025.  But as Van says, it can keep going for quite a while after that with reduced operational tempo, assuming nothing else fails.

The power loss curve is not linear, and much of the advantage of the MMRTG is in waste heat used for thermal control rather than electrical generation.  See Figure 2 in https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160001769.pdf
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 12/30/2018 11:28 pm
The power loss curve is not linear, and much of the advantage of the MMRTG is in waste heat used for thermal control rather than electrical generation.  See Figure 2 in https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160001769.pdf
The "waste" heat decay is much slower than the electrical power decay.  The former is driven by Pu-238 decay, which has a half life in the 90ish years if memory serves me correctly.  The latter is driven primarily by degredation of the thermocouples.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/31/2018 09:16 pm
The power loss curve is not linear, and much of the advantage of the MMRTG is in waste heat used for thermal control rather than electrical generation.  See Figure 2 in https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160001769.pdf
The former is driven by Pu-238 decay, which has a half life in the 90ish years if memory serves me correctly.
It does!  Half-life = 87.7 y
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 01/07/2019 03:48 pm
How NASA’s Rover Team Reimagined Mars 2020

 https://youtu.be/O9YBPRF3o5w
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 02/15/2019 12:15 am
Mars 2020 Rover Build Update


NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Published on Feb 14, 2019

Tour the Spacecraft Assembly Facility at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and see the Mars 2020 mission under construction. Project System Engineer Jennifer Trosper explains the hardware being built and tested, including the rover, descent stage, cruise stage, back shell and heat shield. This NASA mission is preparing to launch to the Red Planet in 2020 and land in 2012. For more about Mars 2020, visit https://mars.nasa.gov/m2020

https://youtu.be/TPXU_uQThGo?t=001

https://youtu.be/TPXU_uQThGo
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 03/02/2019 03:46 am
Got to see Mars 2020 today. They were installing some stuff. I took a lot of photos, most better quality than this, but these are the ones I can grab easily.

Also, 2020 is over budget. I had heard about that a few months ago, but NASA only publicly admitted it a few days ago. I have not seen it reported yet. From a public post by NASA:

"Although the FY19 Planetary Science budget has a great top line, much of that comes with congressional direction that is now in law. In addition, the Agency has indicated the launch of Mars 2020 is a NASA priority. As many are aware, Mars 2020 is currently experiencing some cost growth. Because of the high Agency priority, these costs need to be accommodated in order to meet the 2020 launch window. However, the Mars Exploration Program (MEP) is working to accommodate the bulk of these costs within the MEP with minimal impact to the rest of the planetary portfolio."
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 03/11/2019 08:09 pm
Belated posting:
NASA Seeking Partner in Contest to Name Next Mars Rover (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7242), dated September 21, 2018
NASA has a class assignment for corporations, nonprofits and educational organizations involved in science and space exploration: partner with the agency to inspire future engineers and scientists by sponsoring a contest to name the next rover to venture to the Red Planet.

The contest will allow U.S. students in grades K-12 to propose a name for NASA's next Mars rover (currently being built at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California) and write an essay about their choice. The partner will work with NASA to conduct the contest during the [my bold] 2019 academic year.

The announcement for proposals can be found here [I did not include the link]. All proposals must be received by Oct. 9, 2018, to be considered. Questions by corporations, nonprofits and educational organizations interested in participating should be sent by email to: [email protected]

"We've been doing naming contests since the very first Mars rover back in 1997," said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters, in Washington. "Thousands of kids participate, and their enthusiasm for the contest and Mars is infectious."

The selected partner will have an opportunity to be part of an historic mission, helping NASA engage students from across the country by letting them participate in the next mission to Mars. <snip>
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 03/19/2019 04:18 am
https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-confirms-mars-2020-overrun/#.XJBzZfi3qpI.twitter

Overrun of (so far) 15% confirmed by NASA, related to the Sample Catching Mechanisms.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 03/21/2019 05:29 pm
https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-confirms-mars-2020-overrun/#.XJBzZfi3qpI.twitter

Overrun of (so far) 15% confirmed by NASA, related to the Sample Catching Mechanisms.
Overrun of no more than 15%, which is the level of overrun that triggers a mandatory Congressional review.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 05/03/2019 10:49 pm
Cross-post:
News Release Issued: May 2, 2019 (12:01pm EDT)


Take it Beyond the Limit: Lockheed Martin Completes Critical Testing Milestone for NASA JPL's Mars 2020 Rover Heat Shield

DENVER, May 2, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- Protecting against the extremes of space travel is critical to the success of any mission. Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) has successfully completed the flight hardware structure of the heat shield, validating the physical integrity with a final static test after exposing it to flight-like thermal conditions. The heat shield is half of the large and sophisticated two-part aeroshell that Lockheed Martin is designing and building to encapsulate NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory's Mars 2020 rover from the punishing heat and friction of entry through the Martian atmosphere.

The Lockheed Martin-built heat shield, shown here in the testing phase, is just one component in the final aeroshell that will protect the Mars 2020 rover on its long journey to Mars.

The Mars 2020 mission will be one of the most challenging entry, descent and landings ever attempted on the Red Planet. The heat shield aerodynamics serve as a "brake" to slow the spacecraft from about 12,000 mph (19,300 kph) so the structure needs to be flawless. As the tenth aeroshell system that Lockheed Martin has produced for NASA, this is one of the largest at 15 feet (4.5 meters) in diameter.

"Our experience building aeroshells for NASA Mars missions does not mean that it is 'easy'," said Neil Tice, Lockheed Martin Mars 2020 Aeroshell program manager. "Tests like this structural test are absolutely essential to ensuring mission success in the long-run."

The static test was conducted on April 25 and was designed to mimic the load that the heat shield will experience during the most extreme part of its journey; the entry phase. To do that, engineers used vacuum pumps to simulate the pressure of approximately 140,000 pounds on the structure. The structure was tested to 120% of the expected flight load to push it to the limit.

For this particular test, the team also integrated a new form of instrumentation. Historically, this test utilizes conventional strain gauges and extensometers to monitor structural response at distinct points during loading. Partnering with NASA Langley Research Center, the team also applied a new tool called Photogrammetry or Digital Image Correlation. This allowed the team to monitor full-field strains and displacements over the entire visible area of the structure in real time. To use this technique, a vinyl wrap, similar to a decal, that has different visual cues (dark random speckles over a white background) was applied to the heat shield. During the test, a set of digital cameras optically monitor any changes in the pattern and generate a three-dimensional map of displacements and surface strains as the applied load increases.

"While we have used this full-field photogrammetry technique on test articles in the past, this is the first successful implementation on official flight hardware," said Dr. Sotiris Kellas, NASA Langley aerospace engineer and lead for the technical demonstration. "This technology will allow us to safeguard hardware during testing but more importantly provide data for test analysis correlation and improvement of our design and analysis tools."

Following this test, the Lockheed Martin team will apply Phenolic Impregnated Carbon Ablator (PICA) thermal protection system tiles to the structure. Once complete and through all environmental testing, the full heat shield will be mated to the backshell in early fall.

The Mars 2020 Project at NASA JPL manages rover development for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. The NASA Engineering and Safety Center at NASA Langley Research Center provided the photogrammetry support for this test.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/21/2019 08:30 pm
Mars 2020 Is Coming Together (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7405)

An engineer inspects the completed spacecraft that will carry NASA's next Mars rover to the Red Planet, prior to a test in the Space Simulator Facility at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

From the top down, and suspended by cables, is the complete cruise stage, which will power and guide the Mars 2020 spacecraft on its seven-month voyage to the Red Planet. Directly below that is the aeroshell (white back shell and barely visible black heat shield), which will protect the vehicle during cruise as well as during its fiery descent into the Martian atmosphere. Not visible (because it's cocooned inside the aeroshell) is the completed rocket-powered descent stage and the surrogate rover (a stand-in for the real rover, which is undergoing final assembly in JPL's High Bay 1 cleanroom).

The Mars 2020 spacecraft was tested in the 25-foot-wide, 85-foot-tall (8-meter-by-26-meter) chamber in the same configuration it will be in while flying through interplanetary space. The 2020 rover carries an entirely new suite of instruments, including a sample-caching system that will collect samples of Mars for return to Earth on subsequent missions. The mission will launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida in July of 2020 and land at Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021.

The image was taken on May 9, 2019.

JPL is building and will manage operations of the Mars 2020 rover for the NASA Science Mission Directorate at the agency's headquarters in Washington.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 05/22/2019 08:54 am
May 21, 2019
RELEASE 19-041

NASA Invites Public to Submit Names to Fly Aboard Next Mars Rover

Although it will be years before the first humans set foot on Mars, NASA is giving the public an opportunity to send their names — etched on microchips — to the Red Planet with NASA's Mars 2020 rover, which represents the initial leg of humanity’s first round trip to another planet. The rover is scheduled to launch as early as July 2020, with the spacecraft expected to touch down on Mars in February 2021.

The rover, a robotic scientist weighing more than 2,300 pounds (1,000 kilograms), will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet.

"As we get ready to launch this historic Mars mission, we want everyone to share in this journey of exploration," said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for NASA's Science Mission Directorate (SMD) in Washington. "It’s an exciting time for NASA, as we embark on this voyage to answer profound questions about our neighboring planet, and even the origins of life itself.”

The opportunity to send your name to Mars comes with a souvenir boarding pass and "frequent flyer" points. This is part of a public engagement campaign to highlight missions involved with NASA's journey from the Moon to Mars. Miles (or kilometers) are awarded for each "flight," with corresponding digital mission patches available for download. More than 2 million names flew on NASA's InSight mission to Mars, giving each "flyer" about 300 million frequent flyer miles (nearly 500 million frequent flyer kilometers).

From now until Sept. 30, you can add your name to the list and obtain a souvenir boarding pass to Mars here:

https://go.nasa.gov/Mars2020Pass

The Microdevices Laboratory at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California, will use an electron beam to etch the submitted names onto a silicon chip with lines of text smaller than one-thousandth the width of a human hair (75 nanometers). At that size, more than a million names can be inscribed on a single dime-size microchip. The chip (or chips) will ride on the rover under a glass cover.

NASA will use Mars 2020 and other missions to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. As another step toward that goal, NASA is returning American astronauts to the Moon in 2024. Government, industry and international partners will join NASA in a global effort to build and test the systems needed for human missions to Mars and beyond.

The Mars 2020 Project at JPL manages rover development for SMD. NASA's Launch Services Program, based at the agency's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, is responsible for launch management. Mars 2020 will launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

For more information on Mars 2020, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars2020

For more about NASA's Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 06/06/2019 10:39 pm
You can watch JPL build the 2020 rover live!

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/where-is-the-rover/

edit: embedded link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaNiYPglK58
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 06/15/2019 05:39 am
They made a lot of progress since the livestream went live a week ago.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 06/21/2019 09:28 pm
Appears that they brought in the arm today.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 07/12/2019 04:50 pm
Time lapse of the landing/suspension/wheel assembly being installed recently. Apparently, the wheels currently integrated will be swapped out with flight units closer to launch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDh2Jz3hKjU
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ZachS09 on 08/01/2019 12:18 pm
Even though the Mars 2020 rover naming contest isn’t until this fall, I was thinking about a theoretical nickname for the rover: AMBITION.

NASA has an ambition to continue its extraterrestrial studies of the Red Planet before the agency’s first manned Mars missions.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/01/2019 08:40 pm
Mars 2020 rover on track for launch next July (https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/07/31/mars-2020-rover-on-track-for-launch-next-july/)
We're now less than one year of the Mars 2020 Rover launch window opening:
Quote
Based on the latest trajectory analysis, the launch window July 17 will open at 1300 GMT (9 a.m. EDT), with daily windows of between one and two hours available each day through Aug. 5. Mars 2020 will fly on the same variant of the Atlas 5 — with four solid rocket boosters — that launched the Curiosity rover in 2011.

EDIT/ADD 8/3
Quote
In June, workers inside the Spacecraft Assembly Facility at JPL installed the Mars 2020 rover’s remote sensing mast, six wheels and the 7-foot-long (2.1-meter) robotic arm. Crews at JPL also added the rover’s scientific instruments to the vehicle, many of which are directly mounted to the remote sensing mast, which will raise up to a height of more than 7 feet (2.2 meters) after landing on Mars, or to the end of the robot arm.
<snip>
“All the instruments are on. All of them are there,” [Matt] Wallace [the Mars 2020 mission’s deputy project manager at JPL] said in a recent interview with Spaceflight Now.
<snip>
One of the final major instrument deliveries to the JPL clean room was SuperCam...an upgraded version of the ChemCam instrument currently operating on NASA’s Curiosity rover.
<snip>
[Wallace said:] “The last couple of instruments out on the end of the arm — PIXL and SHERLOC — those were delivered in the last couple of weeks, and that finished off the surface (science) instruments.”
<snip>
Engineers putting together the rover at JPL installed the robot arm’s turret July 11. The turret is an 88-pound (40-kilogram) package containing the PIXL and SHERLOC instruments, along with cameras, which the arm can place against Martian rocks to obtain fine-scale measurements.

The turret also holds a percussive drill and coring mechanism to collect rock samples for eventual return to Earth.

The Mars 2020 team activated the robotic arm for a motion test July 19.
<snip>
“The most substantial thing (left to install) is what we call the caching system,” Wallace said.
<snip>
Teams at JPL will also attach the Mars Helicopter — the first vehicle built to fly through the atmosphere of another planet — to the belly of the Mars 2020 rover in the coming days.

“And the helicopter,” Wallace added. “The helicopter will be going on (soon). It sits up underneath the vehicle. That’ll be it.”
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Thorny on 08/04/2019 04:55 pm
Even though the Mars 2020 rover naming contest isn’t until this fall, I was thinking about a theoretical nickname for the rover: AMBITION.

2020 being the 100th anniversary of the 19th Amendment giving women the right to vote in the United States, I suspect the rover will be named for Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B. Anthony. The landing site might be designated Seneca Falls.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 08/28/2019 07:08 pm
August 28, 2019
RELEASE 19-070
NASA Invites Students to Name Next Mars Rover

Red rover, red rover, send a name for Mars 2020 right over! NASA is recruiting help from students nationwide to find a name for its next Mars rover mission.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/


Starting Tuesday, K-12 students in U.S. public, private and home schools can enter the Mars 2020 Name the Rover essay contest. One grand prize winner will name the rover and be invited to see the spacecraft launch in July 2020 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida.

The Name the Rover contest is part of NASA's efforts to engage students in the STEM enterprise behind Mars exploration and inspire interest in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

"This naming contest is a wonderful opportunity for our nation’s youth to get involved with NASA’s Moon to Mars missions,” said NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. "It is an exciting way to engage with a rover that will likely serve as the first leg of a Mars Sample return campaign, collecting and caching core samples from the Martian surface for scientists here on Earth to study for the first time.”

The Mars 2020 rover is a 2,300-pound robotic scientist that will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet.

“Our Mars 2020 rover has fully taken shape over the past several months, as the project team installed various components onto the chassis: the computer brain and electronics; wheels and mobility system; robotic arm; remote sensing mast; the seven science instruments; and finally, the sample caching system," said George Tahu, Mars 2020 program executive. "All that’s missing is a great name!”

To enter the contest, students must submit by Nov. 1 their proposed rover name and a short essay, no more than 150 words, explaining why their proposed name should be chosen. The essays will be divided into three groups, by grade level – K-4, 5-8, and 9-12 – and judged on the appropriateness, significance and originality of their proposed name, and the originality and quality of their essay, and/or finalist interview presentation.

Fifty-two semifinalists will be selected per group, each representing their respective state or U.S. territory. Three finalists then will be selected from each group to advance to the final round.

As part of the final selection process, the public will have an opportunity to vote online on the nine finalists in January 2020. NASA plans to announce the selected name on Feb. 18, 2020 – exactly one year before the rover will land on the surface of Mars.

For complete contest and prize details, visit:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

The naming contest partnership is part of a Space Act Agreement between NASA, Battelle of Columbus, Ohio, and Future Engineers of Burbank, California, in educational and public outreach efforts.

Register to be a Judge

NASA is seeking volunteers to help judge the thousands of contest entries anticipated to pour in from around the country. U.S. residents over 18 years old who are interested in offering approximately five hours of their time to review submissions should register to be a judge at:

https://www.futureengineers.org/registration/judge/nametherover

Rover Update

With all major elements onboard and initial functional checks complete, Mars 2020’s Assembly, Test, and Launch Operations team is preparing the rover and its sky crane descent stage for the next big test: simulating the vibration dynamics of launch and the thermal environment the rover will experience on the surface of Mars.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, manages rover development for the agency. The Launch Services Program at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida is responsible for launch management.

For more about NASA's Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/28/2019 08:06 pm
Being a judge sounds interesting!


JUDGING CRITERIA
 
40 POINTS
 Appropriateness and Significance of Name

30 POINTS
 Originality of name

30 POINTS
 Originality and quality of the essay and/or finalist interview presentation

5 POINTS
 Bonus points awarded to entry with the highest public poll votes (only applicable in the final judging round)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: catdlr on 08/29/2019 05:29 am
NASA's Mars Helicopter Attached to Mars 2020 Rover

Engineers attached NASA's Mars Helicopter, which will be the first aircraft to fly on another planet, to the belly of the Mars 2020 rover today in the High Bay 1 clean room at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

The twin-rotor, solar-powered helicopter was connected, along with the Mars Helicopter Delivery System, to a plate on the rover's belly that includes a cover to shield the helicopter from debris during entry, descent and landing. The helicopter will remain encapsulated after landing, deploying to the surface once a suitable area to conduct test flights is found at Jezero Crater, the rover's destination.

The Mars Helicopter is considered a high-risk, high-reward technology demonstration. If the small craft encounters difficulties, the science-gathering of the Mars 2020 mission won't be impacted. If the helicopter does take flight as designed, future Mars missions could enlist second-generation helicopters to add an aerial dimension to their explorations.

"Our job is to prove that autonomous, controlled flight can be executed in the extremely thin Martian atmosphere," said JPL's MiMi Aung, the Mars Helicopter project manager. "Since our helicopter is designed as a flight test of experimental technology, it carries no science instruments. But if we prove powered flight on Mars can work, we look forward to the day when Mars helicopters can play an important role in future explorations of the Red Planet."

Along with investigating difficult-to-reach destinations such as cliffs, caves and deep craters, they could carry small science instruments or act as scouts for human and robotic explorers. The agency intends to establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans, using the Moon as a stepping stone to putting humans on Mars.

"The Wright Brothers flew the first airplane at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, but they built it in Dayton," said NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. "The Mars Helicopter, destined to be the first aircraft to fly on another world, was built in Pasadena, California. Joined now to the 2020 rover, it is yet another example of how NASA's Artemis generation is expanding humanity's reach in our solar system."

"With this joining of two great spacecraft, I can say definitively that all the pieces are in place for a historic mission of exploration," said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator of the Science Mission Directorate at NASA's headquarters in Washington. "Together, Mars 2020 and the Mars Helicopter will help define the future of science and exploration of the Red Planet for decades to come."

The Mars 2020 rover, with the Mars Helicopter aboard, will launch on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket in July 2020 from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. When it lands at Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021, the rover will be the first spacecraft in the history of planetary exploration with the ability to accurately retarget its point of touchdown during the landing sequence.

JPL is building and will manage operations of the Mars 2020 rover and the Mars Helicopter for NASA. NASA's Launch Services Program, based at the agency's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, is responsible for launch management. Lockheed Martin Space provided the Mars Helicopter Delivery System.

To submit your name to travel to Mars with NASA's 2020 mission and obtain a souvenir boarding pass to the Red Planet, go here by Sept. 30, 2019:

https://go.nasa.gov/Mars2020Pass

For more information about the mission, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

For more information about NASA's Mars missions, go to:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 08/29/2019 08:36 am
"Building NASA’s Mars 2020 Rover"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnuLxzocuhY
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 08/29/2019 08:53 am
Members of the NASA Mars Helicopter team attach a thermal film to the exterior of the flight model of the Mars Helicopter. The image was taken on Feb. 1, 2019 inside the Space Simulator, a 25-foot-wide (7.62-meter-wide) vacuum chamber at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory will build and manage operations of the Mars 2020 rover for the NASA Science Mission Directorate at the agency's headquarters in Washington.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hog on 08/29/2019 05:41 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: speedevil on 08/29/2019 07:15 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.
You could argue that any lifting entry is a controllable aircraft.

I would argue that if something would work in vacuum, it's not an aircraft.
Which rules out the LM and skyhook in its terminal phase.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: TripleSeven on 08/29/2019 07:20 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.

it was not flying meaning it was not under control by aerodynamic forces 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hog on 08/30/2019 04:40 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.
You could argue that any lifting entry is a controllable aircraft.

I would argue that if something would work in vacuum, it's not an aircraft.
Which rules out the LM and skyhook in its terminal phase.
Very interesting.  Curious, ow would you characterize a shuttle orbiter?  Works in vacuum and in an atmosphere?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Hog on 08/30/2019 04:46 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.

it was not flying meaning it was not under control by aerodynamic forces
We'd better get a hold of Chris Bergin to change the name of the site. New name, NASA Spacetranslation.com?  NASA movement through space.com?

Is a hydrogen balloon or hot air balloon flying or simply floating, just curious?

Flight="Flight is the process by which an object moves through an atmosphere (or beyond it, as in the case of spaceflight) without contact with the surface. This can be achieved by generating aerodynamic lift associated with propulsive thrust, aerostatically using buoyancy, or by ballistic movement."
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: speedevil on 08/30/2019 05:01 pm
"The first aircraft to fly on another planet?"

Depends if you consider the sky hook that suspended and lowered Curiosity to the Martian surface as "flying", which it is IMO.
You could argue that any lifting entry is a controllable aircraft.

I would argue that if something would work in vacuum, it's not an aircraft.
Which rules out the LM and skyhook in its terminal phase.
Very interesting.  Curious, ow would you characterize a shuttle orbiter?  Works in vacuum and in an atmosphere?

It is flying as an aircraft (on earth) when it is using aerodynamic lift or drag to maintain or change its trajectory.
What you call it at other times may vary.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: MattMason on 08/30/2019 05:39 pm
I love what NASA calls "technology demonstrators."

"Oh, it's no biggie if it doesn't work," they say.

But when it does, they pepper the skies with more, fortified mission-capable versions. Sojourner begat MER, which begat Curiosity, which begat Mars 2020. The MarCOs may also become standard equipment. Haven't heard if there are any going with Mars 2020, however.

And with Dragonfly to Titan, the idea that a later Mars mission, if "Choppy" here works, will become a larger lightweight drone isn't too notional.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: plutogno on 08/30/2019 05:58 pm
You could argue that any lifting entry is a controllable aircraft.

the two Vikings flew lifting profiles in 1976 and thus were the first to fly on Mars
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/17/2019 10:56 pm
Being a judge sounds interesting!


JUDGING CRITERIA
 
40 POINTS
 Appropriateness and Significance of Name

30 POINTS
 Originality of name

30 POINTS
 Originality and quality of the essay and/or finalist interview presentation

5 POINTS
 Bonus points awarded to entry with the highest public poll votes (only applicable in the final judging round)

Small update on this, I've gotten an email from the staff running the volunteer judges, so I'm in the loop on that.

By the way: Entries close on Nov. 1st, so if you have (or know of) any K-12 kids who would be interested, prod them into submitting an entry for a name for the rover.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

I'll probably be sworn to secrecy about entries, but if not, I'll post some of the interesting ones I come across here.

I think you can still sign up to be a volunteer judge, if anyone is interested.
https://www.futureengineers.org/registration/judge/nametherover
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 10/26/2019 06:54 pm
Mars 2020 Stands on Its Own Six Wheels

This time-lapse video, taken on Oct. 8, 2019, at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, captures the first time NASA's Mars 2020 rover has carried its full weight on its legs and wheels.

https://youtu.be/5zI9jMna4C8

“After years of design, analysis and testing, it is fantastic to see the rover on her wheels for the first time," said Ben Riggs, a mechanical systems engineer working on Mars 2020 at JPL. "The whole team looks forward to seeing her in the same configuration on Mars in the not too distant future."

The rover's legs (the black tubing visible above the wheels) are composed of titanium, while the wheels are made of aluminum. Measuring 20.7 inches (52.5 centimeters) in diameter and machined with traction-providing cleats, or grousers, the wheels are engineering models that will be replaced with flight models next year. Every wheel has its own motor. The two front and two rear wheels also have individual steering motors that enable the vehicle to turn a full 360 degrees in place.

When driving over uneven terrain, the rover's "rocker-bogie" suspension system - called that because of its multiple pivot points and struts - maintains a relatively constant weight on each wheel for stability. Rover drivers avoid terrain that would cause the vehicle to tilt more than 30 degrees, but even so, the rover can handle a 45-degree tilt in any direction without tipping over. It can also roll over obstacles and through depressions the size of its wheels.

The Mars 2020 rover was photographed in the Simulator Building at JPL, where it underwent weeks of testing, including an extensive evaluation of how its instruments, systems and subsystems operate in the frigid, near-vacuum environment it will face on Mars.

JPL is building and will manage operations of the Mars 2020 rover for NASA. The rover will launch on a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket in July 2020 from Space Launch Complex 41 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA's Launch Services Program, based at the agency's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, is responsible for launch management.

When the rover lands at Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021, it will be the first spacecraft in the history of planetary exploration with the ability to accurately retarget its point of touchdown during the landing sequence.

Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028. We will use what we learn on the Moon to prepare to send astronauts to Mars.

Interested K-12 students in U.S. public, private and home schools have one more week to enter the Mars 2020 Name the Rover essay contest. One grand prize winner will name the rover. The contest closes Nov. 1, 2019.

For more information about the name contest, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

For more information about the mission, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/13/2019 07:02 pm
https://twitter.com/mike_malaska/status/1194423640890204160

Quote
Whoo-hoo! The #Mars2020 rover is out of it's testing and looking awesome as ever! @NASAJPL
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/25/2019 10:10 pm
Being a judge sounds interesting!


JUDGING CRITERIA
 
40 POINTS
 Appropriateness and Significance of Name

30 POINTS
 Originality of name

30 POINTS
 Originality and quality of the essay and/or finalist interview presentation

5 POINTS
 Bonus points awarded to entry with the highest public poll votes (only applicable in the final judging round)

Small update on this, I've gotten an email from the staff running the volunteer judges, so I'm in the loop on that.

By the way: Entries close on Nov. 1st, so if you have (or know of) any K-12 kids who would be interested, prod them into submitting an entry for a name for the rover.
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

I'll probably be sworn to secrecy about entries, but if not, I'll post some of the interesting ones I come across here.

I think you can still sign up to be a volunteer judge, if anyone is interested.
https://www.futureengineers.org/registration/judge/nametherover

I am not allowed to share any entries, as I suspected. However, I can tell you that 2020 Mars Rover name judging is now going on and will continue from now through December. I got a selection from grades 9-12. As you probably can imagine, some are quite silly, and some are thoughtful.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/25/2019 10:40 pm
I am not allowed to share any entries, as I suspected. However, I can tell you that 2020 Mars Rover name judging is now going on and will continue from now through December. I got a selection from grades 9-12. As you probably can imagine, some are quite silly, and some are thoughtful.

I just finished the first batch of names on that note.  Quite a variety.  I felt like an elementary school teacher reading through these; as in trying to balance critical review with understanding many of these were written by little people with big dreams but no college English courses under their belt.  I will say there were decent contenders that were original and could match the themes of Opportunity, Spirit, Curiosity, and Pathfinder.

D-don't ask about the bomb names though...but thankfully those were fewer!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/25/2019 10:58 pm
I am not allowed to share any entries, as I suspected. However, I can tell you that 2020 Mars Rover name judging is now going on and will continue from now through December. I got a selection from grades 9-12. As you probably can imagine, some are quite silly, and some are thoughtful.

I just finished the first batch of names on that note.  Quite a variety.  I felt like an elementary school teacher reading through these; as in trying to balance critical review with understanding many of these were written by little people with big dreams but no college English courses under their belt.  I will say there were decent contenders that were original and could match the themes of Opportunity, Spirit, Curiosity, and Pathfinder.

D-don't ask about the bomb names though...but thankfully those were fewer!

Yeah, I only had a couple that I had to disqualify outright. I only looked through the ones that looked like the worst of my batch today (though a couple did surprise me), as I want to spend more time on it over the weekend.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2019 01:01 am
Yeah, I only had a couple that I had to disqualify outright. I only looked through the ones that looked like the worst of my batch today (though a couple did surprise me), as I want to spend more time on it over the weekend.

Judging from the batch I had, 3/4 of the students were taking the contest seriously regardless of their essays.  Grade levels were not indicated, but I gave the benefit-of-the-doubt that the less structured essays were 1st grade or kindergarten, but even those youngsters largely conveyed a spirit of genuine interest if not outright love for Mars.  Carl Sagan would be weeping joyful tears.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 11/27/2019 05:00 pm
Gearing Up for Mars 2020 Rover

Danielle Sempsrott Posted on November 27, 2019

Critical ground support equipment needed to prepare NASA’s Mars 2020 rover for its journey to the Red Planet has arrived at a payload processing facility at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The rover is being manufactured at the agency’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California and, once complete, will be sent to Kennedy for assembly, prelaunch processing and checkouts.

One vital element of hardware involved in spacecraft processing will be the Spacecraft Assembly and Rotation Fixture (SCARF) and its access stand, allowing teams to reach the spacecraft when it’s held above ground level. This fixture also is where all of the individual spacecraft elements will be mated together. Once assembly is finalized, the SCARF will rotate the spacecraft 180 degrees for encapsulation into the launch vehicle’s payload fairing, where it will remain for launch.

Developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program, the Mars 2020 rover is designed to better understand the geology of Mars and seek signs of ancient microbial life. The mission will collect and store a set of rock and soil samples that could be returned to Earth in the future. It also will test new technology to benefit future robotic and human exploration of Mars. About the size of a car and close to the same dimensions as the Curiosity rover, the Mars 2020 rover will carry seven different scientific instruments to conduct studies aimed at benefiting future Mars exploration efforts.

The rover is scheduled to launch in the summer of 2020 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, procured by NASA’s Launch Services Program.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2019/11/27/gearing-up-for-mars-2020-rover/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 12/17/2019 11:59 pm
BTW, Mars 2020 is alive on the JPL stream...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j78TwQCfEzc
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 12/18/2019 07:36 pm
Mars 2020 Rover’s Heat Shield, Back Shell Arrive at Florida Spaceport

James Cawley Posted on December 18, 2019

Two vital pieces of equipment for the Mars 2020 rover were flown from Lockheed Martin Space in Denver, Colorado, and recently delivered to the agency’s Kennedy Space Center.

The rover’s heat shield and back shell arrived at Kennedy’s Launch and Landing Facility (formerly the Shuttle Landing Facility) on Dec. 11, 2019, and were then transported to the Florida spaceport’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility. Built by Lockheed Martin Space, these two essential parts of the spacecraft will protect the rover during its passage to Mars. The Mars 2020 rover is being manufactured at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California and, once complete, will be delivered to Kennedy in mid-February, 2020.

As the spacecraft descends through the Martian atmosphere, the heat shield will encounter extreme amounts of friction, creating temperatures as high as about 3,200 degrees Fahrenheit. The back shell contains several elements critical to landing the rover, including the parachute and antennas for communication. Some of these key components will be integrated in the months to come by the NASA-JPL team at Kennedy.

The mission is scheduled to launch in the summer of 2020 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, procured by NASA’s Launch Services Program. It will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021.

About the size of a car with dimensions similar to the Curiosity rover, the Mars 2020 rover will carry seven different scientific instruments. Developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program, the mission aims to search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet’s climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth and pave the way for human exploration of Mars.\

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2019/12/18/mars-2020-rovers-heat-shield-back-shell-arrive-at-florida-spaceport/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 12/18/2019 11:00 pm
After its first driving test at @NASAJPL, our #Mars2020 rover has "earned its driver's license" and is ready to roll on the Red Planet!

https://twitter.com/NASA/status/1207405177986338816
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 12/19/2019 06:51 am
https://youtu.be/hrF5YwR-j24
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/27/2019 07:43 pm
Several journalists / science writers visiting JPL today:

https://twitter.com/shannonmstirone/status/1210650144254746624

Quote
The descent stage is stunning.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 01/16/2020 01:27 pm
The Mars 2020 rover heat shield is mated to the back shell in the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at Kennedy Space Center in Florida on Jan. 10, 2020. Built by Lockheed Martin Space, the heat shield and back shell will protect the rover during its passage to Mars. The Mars 2020 rover is being manufactured at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California and, once complete, will be delivered to Kennedy next month. The mission is scheduled to launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida in the summer of 2020.

Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/16/2020 04:47 pm
NASA’s next Mars rover will soon ship to Cape Canaveral launch site (https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/01/02/nasas-next-mars-rover-will-soon-ship-to-cape-canaveral-launch-site/), January 2
Quote
The next step on the road to Mars 2020’s launch will be the shipment of the rover, descent stage and cruise stage to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The components will be transported from California to Florida in two shipments, with the rover scheduled to arrive at KSC in February on a U.S. military cargo plane.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: meberbs on 01/16/2020 11:24 pm
For anyone wondering about the naming contest, the poll is still listed as supposed to be available this month, but isn't there yet (with final results in March.)

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

155 semifinalist essays are available. Some of the (better in my opinion) names are duplicated. I count 5 Inspiration, 5 Ingenuity, 4 Vision, 4 Determination, 4 Tenacity, and 3 Possibility. There are probably others, I wasn't thorough, and some really good ones don't have duplicates. And somehow the name "Propulsion Major Crater" is a semifinalist. The essay actually legitimately justifies it, but really...NO.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 01/18/2020 08:09 am
Here are all the semi-finalists in text format if anyone wants an easy way to skim through them.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 01/18/2020 11:02 pm
Here are all the semi-finalists in text format if anyone wants an easy way to skim through them.

Numerous students picked similar names, although they were quality choices all same.

Later this month there's supposed to be a down-select via public vote to nine finalists.

Personally, my favorite 3 were "Dusty", "Archimedes", and "Prospector."  I have a feeling Dusty specifically might end up in the finalists.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: falcon19 on 01/20/2020 01:14 pm
Tenacity and Audacity get my vote if they want to keep the naming scheme of Spirit, Opportunity, and Curiosity. If they want to change from that scheme I would vote for Mornar or RIDE.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 01/21/2020 04:54 am
I would say, as this is a sibling of Curiosity in make, whatever name that is picked should sit comfortably beside it.

Spirit and Opportunity.  Curiosity and _______.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/21/2020 05:37 pm
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1219670320107393024

Quote
Here are the nine finalists for the Mars 2020 rover name contest:

Endurance
Tenacity
Promise
Perseverance
Vision
Clarity
Ingenuity
Fortitude
Courage

Less than a week to vote!

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 01/21/2020 05:48 pm
I am actually shocked that Inspiration didn't make the list.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 01/22/2020 04:54 am
Was sad that Dusty and Prospector didn't make the final cut.  Out of the final nine I personally favor Tenacity.  However the public vote is purely arbitrary and it's NASA itself that makes the final decision.  Still fun to participate in, and I was glad I helped judge the initial batch of names.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 01/22/2020 05:54 am
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1219670320107393024

Quote
Here are the nine finalists for the Mars 2020 rover name contest:

Endurance
Tenacity
Promise
Perseverance
Vision
Clarity
Ingenuity
Fortitude
Courage

Less than a week to vote!

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/participate/name-the-rover/

Those names aren't bad.   I'm a bit disappointed that there isn't a much wider set of themes in the final 9.

  Fortitude = Perseverance = Endurance = Tenacity

And all these sound vaguely like "Curiosity".   

Committees kill creativity.    Rocket lab launch names are cool.   Landing barge names are cool.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 01/22/2020 09:40 am
Lift activities for the Mars 2020 rover aeroshell are conducted inside Kennedy Space Center’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility on Jan. 14, 2020. The activities included installing the inverted lift fixture and lifting the aeroshell assembly to the spin table for mass properties measurements. The Mars 2020 rover mission will launch aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, procured by NASA’s Launch Services Program, from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida in the summer of 2020.

Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 01/27/2020 02:49 pm
NASA Continues With Important Testing of Mars 2020 Rover Aeroshell

James Cawley Posted on January 27, 2020

Tests to measure the center of gravity and moments of inertia for the Mars 2020 rover aeroshell were performed on the spin table inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

The rover is being manufactured at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California and, once complete, will be delivered to Kennedy in mid-February. The rover’s heat shield and back shell arrived at Kennedy last month.

The mission is scheduled to launch this summer from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.

Carrying seven different scientific instruments, the Mars 2020 rover will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. More information can be found on the mission’s website.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/kennedy/2020/01/27/nasa-continues-with-important-testing-of-mars-2020-rover-aeroshell/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/04/2020 10:00 pm
https://twitter.com/nujoud/status/1224828690728505345

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Got to visit the next Mars Rover 2020 @NASAJPL and right before she gets packed up 👋 #safetravels
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/06/2020 07:26 pm
https://twitter.com/earthtoleo/status/1225506777246158862

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Farewell friend! 🙋🏻‍♂️ #Mars2020 is packed and ready to ship out to @NASAKennedy for its launch in July. Still lots of work to do before heading to Mars. Then the real fun begins. It has been a pleasure working with such an incredible team! 🚀💫 @NASAJPL #journeytomars #NASAJPL
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 02/10/2020 03:52 am
From the Solar Orbiter launch coverage, interview with KSC Director Bob Cabana:
Mars 2020 ships to KSC Tuesday, February 11.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/11/2020 08:42 am
From the Solar Orbiter launch coverage, interview with KSC Director Bob Cabana:
Mars 2020 ships to KSC Tuesday, February 11.

Indeed:

twitter.com/tweetsoutloud/status/1227059742410866688

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It’s Mars 2020’s last day @NASAJPL and we’re out here saying goodbye to our explorer

https://twitter.com/tweetsoutloud/status/1227061989999968256

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Somehow I just imagine the rover saying “Do not destroy” to little aliens
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/11/2020 05:21 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/steltzner/status/1227153289482928128

Shipment!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Helodriver on 02/12/2020 06:54 pm
The Mars 2020 spacecraft has just now arrived at the KSC Shuttle Landing Facility aboard a USAF C-17.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/12/2020 07:09 pm
https://twitter.com/trevormahlmann/status/1227684960485740547

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WOW! Just captured #Mars2020 rover arriving at @NASAKennedy on a C17 Globemaster. Incredible sight!

Edit to add:

https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1227685067960569861

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Welcome to the Space Coast #Mars2020! The folks at @NASAJPL will be happy to know you arrived at the Shuttle Landing Facility at approximately 2:50 pm.

https://twitter.com/nasakennedy/status/1227684184333987840

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Thanks for the delivery @NASAJPL! #Mars2020 has officially arrived ahead of its launch to the Red Planet this summer 🚀

Learn more about this mission to study Mars: mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/13/2020 06:42 pm
Mars 2020 Rover Makes its Way to Kennedy

James Cawley Posted on February 13, 2020

Leaving from its temporary home at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California, the Mars 2020 rover completed a cross-country trip Wednesday afternoon. It arrived on a C-17 aircraft to Kennedy Space Center’s Launch and Landing Facility (formerly the Shuttle Landing Facility) Wednesday afternoon.

The spacecraft was then moved to Kennedy’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility (PHSF), where it is being unboxed today. Before making the trek to the Florida spaceport, the Mars 2020 rover traveled about 70 miles southeast from JPL to March Air Reserve Base.

Carrying seven different scientific instruments, the Mars 2020 rover will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff, aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, is targeted for mid-July from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.

About the size of a car with dimensions similar to the Curiosity rover, the Mars 2020 rover was developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program. The mission aims to search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet’s climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth and pave the way for human exploration of Mars.

Last month, multiple important tests were performed on the Mars 2020 rover aeroshell inside the PHSF, including measuring the center of gravity and moments of inertia on the spin table, as well as lift activities. The rover’s heat shield and back shell arrived at Kennedy from Lockheed Martin Space in Denver, Colorado, on Dec. 11, 2019. The spacecraft was manufactured at JPL.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2020/02/13/mars-2020-rover-makes-its-way-to-kennedy/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 02/17/2020 09:37 am
Sure, give nuclear powered robots high power lasers. What could go wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rvWXCts420
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2020 03:37 pm
Mars 2020 Rover Undergoing Processing at Florida Spaceport

James Cawley Posted on February 18, 2020

Soon after its arrival to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center last week, the Mars 2020 rover was moved to the Florida spaceport’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility, where it has been undergoing processing for its mission later this year. The spacecraft was flown to Kennedy from California aboard a C-17 aircraft on Feb. 12.

Targeted for mid-July 2020, the mission will launch aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. The launch is managed by the Launch Services Program.

The Mars 2020 rover will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet’s climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth and pave the way for human exploration of Mars.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2020/02/18/mars-2020-rover-undergoing-processing-at-florida-spaceport/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/20/2020 07:55 am
Peeping under the (kapton) curtain:

https://twitter.com/SpaceToday1/status/1230147991148912646
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/20/2020 09:51 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49562663837/

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NASA Kennedy Follow
KSC-20200214-PH-KLS01_0018

The Mars 2020 rover undergoes processing inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida on Feb. 14, 2020. Initial processing took place on Feb. 13, one day after a C-17 aircraft, with the rover aboard, touched down at the Launch and Landing Facility at Kennedy. The cross-country trip began at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, where the rover was manufactured. The mission, targeted for mid-July 2020, will launch aboard an Atlas V 541 rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. Click here for more information on the Mars 2020 rover mission. Photo credit: NASA/Kim Shiflett
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/03/2020 10:55 pm
https://youtu.be/Zni3MLBHDaY

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Mars Rover 2020's Name Reveal

Scheduled for 5 Mar 2020
Drum roll, please: You voted on names for our #Mars2020 rover. Find out which was selected!

Our newest Mars rover's name – and the student behind it – will be announced LIVE Thursday, March 5 at 1:30 p.m. EST.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 03/04/2020 11:07 am
I see from the finalists we are continuting the tradition from previous Mars rovers in having those terrible bland cutesy meaningless names. Ugh.

 
Quote from: https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8588/nine-finalists-chosen-in-nasas-mars-2020-rover-naming-contest/
  Endurance, K-4, Oliver Jacobs of Virginia
    Tenacity, K-4, Eamon Reilly of Pennsylvania
    Promise, K-4, Amira Shanshiry of Massachusetts

    Perseverance, 5-8, Alexander Mather of Virginia
    Vision, 5-8, Hadley Green of Mississippi
    Clarity, 5-8, Nora Benitez of California

    Ingenuity, 9-12, Vaneeza Rupani of Alabama
    Fortitude, 9-12, Anthony Yoon of Oklahoma
    Courage, 9-12, Tori Gray of Louisiana

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 03/04/2020 03:35 pm
I see from the finalists we are continuting the tradition from previous Mars rovers in having those terrible bland cutesy meaningless names. Ugh.

Sort of, but you have to admit Voyager was the name of a canceled (and slightly-half-baked) Mars mission before.  I will definitely agree that there were more exciting names in the semi-finals before the nine; Prospector was a name that made sense to me for example.  Personally I'm hoping Tenacity wins out since it is the one name that has a touch of actual bite to the sound.

All the same, I'll be up for the unveiling.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/04/2020 05:20 pm
We seem to be in the "inspirational character trait" era, at least when it comes to Mars rovers.

I prefer the "inspirational job name" era: Surveyor, Mariner, Voyager, Pioneer.

Or perhaps we could get the cool short phrase era going again: e.g. New Horizons.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 03/04/2020 05:22 pm
I see from the finalists we are continuting the tradition from previous Mars rovers in having those terrible bland cutesy meaningless names.
"Endurance" is an historical reference to Shackleton's Antarctic ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_(1912_ship)

I'm not expecting it to be picked, but I voted for it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/04/2020 05:29 pm
"Endurance" is an historical reference to Shackleton's Antarctic ship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_(1912_ship)

I'm not expecting it to be picked, but I voted for it.

Not the best vibes.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 03/04/2020 05:34 pm
"Endurance" is an historical reference to Shackleton's Antarctic ship...

Not the best vibes.
Hence my expectation that it won't get picked, but the rover is inevitably going to be run until it dies, so it's not all that inappropriate.

It was good enough for Nolan's INTERSTELLAR (not that I am a fan.)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/05/2020 05:36 pm
https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1235633659409035264
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 03/05/2020 05:41 pm
Perseverance

edit: Yep, I just ninja'd Chris...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/05/2020 05:41 pm
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1235636479403098113
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 03/05/2020 05:45 pm
Alexander did a decent job reading out his essay.  Public speech is very intimidating.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 03/05/2020 05:59 pm
A trip to the Perseverance launch...sponsored by Amazon Web Services. Interesting.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 03/05/2020 06:20 pm
Eh. As a non-native English speaker, Endurance had more of a ring to it, but whatever, the people have spoken.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/05/2020 06:26 pm
https://twitter.com/sethkurk/status/1235643236653256704

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Say hello to PERSEVERANCE!

After months of sorting through 28,000+ possible names and 770,000 public votes for the #Mars2020 rover, we have a winner. Follow @NASAPersevere for the latest updates on our newest mission. go.nasa.gov/3cvcsT3

https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1235643649154854914

Quote
And here is the actual name plate on the actual Mars 2020 rover at KSC getting ready for launch.  They put it on just during this presentation since they didn't know which name won either.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/05/2020 06:28 pm
Article by Thomas Burghardt:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2020/03/americas-mars-rover-perseverance-pave-human-exploration/

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1235646026108854274
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 03/05/2020 09:06 pm
NASA announcement of name clip:

https://youtu.be/NA64dzkk20Y
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/12/2020 04:18 pm
https://twitter.com/nasakennedy/status/1238138964726464513

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[email protected] is getting ready for launch 🚀

The rover has been undergoing processing at our payload facility before its mission to Mars to search for signs of past microbial life and collect samples for future return to Earth: go.nasa.gov/2uMtFq3
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 03/20/2020 09:26 am
Perseverance will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted for mid-July from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/20/2020 10:45 am
Another NASA Kennedy image

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49677674507/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 03/20/2020 10:59 pm
Facing pandemic, NASA shutters rocket factory, halts SLS and Orion testing (https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/03/20/facing-pandemic-nasa-shutters-rocket-factory-halts-sls-and-orion-testing/), dated March 20:

Quote
The Perseverance rover mission is one of two high-priority projects within NASA’s science division that are pre-approved to continue work even if the agency elevates all centers to Stage 4 in the coronavirus response plan.

Lori Glaze, head of NASA’s planetary science division, re: work on Perseverance in the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility (PHSF) at KSC:
Quote
“We’ve put together a framework … with which to look at each of the missions and what points we want to continue working on them,” Glaze said in a virtual town hall meeting Thursday [March 19] with members of the planetary science community. “And Mars 2020 is one of only two missions within (NASA’s science directorate) that is the very highest priority … We’re going to ensure that we meet that launch window in July.

“In so doing, we’re also making sure that our personnel are healthy and safe,” Glaze said. “We’re taking every precaution to make sure that those individuals that are working on Mars 2020 are going to work in conditions and have an environment where they’re able to stay safe. But we’re continuing the activities, the integration and test activities, that are going on at Kennedy Space Center.”

She also mentioned that members Mars 2020 team from KSC, JPL, NASA HQ, and the Department of Energy have given their "full support" for the plan to load Perseverance's MMRTG, inside of its payload fairing and atop its Atlas-Centaur.

EDIT/ADD
From March 20, 2020, RELEASE 20-031, NASA Leadership Assessing Mission Impacts of Coronavirus
Quote
NASA’s Mars 2020 mission, which includes the Perseverance Rover and Mars Helicopter, remains a high priority for the agency, and launch and other mission preparations will continue. Much of the work is being done by employees and contractors who work remotely across the agency. Assessments by agency leadership are underway for anyone required to work in areas under restriction, such as NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, especially after the recent announcement by California’s governor.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/24/2020 07:22 pm
https://twitter.com/nasaexplores/status/1242541802974035973

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#ICYMI Perseverance Rover is prepping for July 2020 launch.

Last week, Perseverance's assembly, test & launch operations team integrated 2 components critical to the acquisition, containment & return to #Earth of the 1st samples from #Mars.

Learn more: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7620
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 03/26/2020 03:21 pm
NASA Shows Perseverance with Helicopter, Cruise Stage Testing

Anna Heiney Posted on March 26, 2020

The Mars 2020 mission involving NASA’s newly named rover — Perseverance — received a significant boost following the completion of important testing at the agency’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

Activities to measure mass properties of the Cruise Stage vehicle were performed on the spin table inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility. Successful testing also was performed on NASA’s Mars Helicopter, which will be attached to Perseverance. The functional test (50 RPM spin) was executed on the stand in the airlock. This marked the last time the rotor blades will be operated until the rover reaches the Martian surface.

The NASA Mars Helicopter will be the first aircraft to fly on another planet. The twin-rotor, solar-powered helicopter will remain encapsulated after landing, deploying once mission managers determine an acceptable area to conduct test flights.

On March 5, 2020, NASA announced Perseverance as the new name for the ars 2020 rover. Alexander Mather, a seventh-grader from Virginia, provided the winning name for the rover with his entry in the agency’s Name the Rover essay contest.

Perseverance will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted for mid-July from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.

About the size of a car with dimensions similar to the Curiosity rover, Perseverance was developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program. The mission aims to search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet’s climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth and pave the way for human exploration of Mars.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2020/03/26/nasa-shows-perseverance-with-helicopter-cruise-stage-testing/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 03/26/2020 08:13 pm
Millions Tag Along for NASA’s Mars 2020 Mission

James Cawley Posted on March 26, 2020

When the Mars Perseverance rover begins its seven-month journey to the Red Planet in mid-July, it will be carrying the names of more than 10 million people throughout the world.

Those names were etched onto a microchip, which was placed aboard Perseverance. On March 16, 2020, inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida, the “Names to Mars” logo was installed on the rover.

Those who took advantage of the special public promotion also had the opportunity to receive a souvenir boarding pass and obtain “frequent flyer points” as part of humanity’s first round trip to another planet. In total, 10,932,295 people submitted their names. Turkey (2,528,844), India (1,778,277) and the United States (1,733,559) all had more than 1 million submissions.

Perseverance will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet’s climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet.

The rover will land on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted for mid-July from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.

Weighing more than 2,300 pounds, Perseverance is about the size of a car, with dimensions similar to the Curiosity rover. It was developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program.

Earlier this month at Kennedy, activities to measure mass properties of the Cruise Stage vehicle were performed on the spin table inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility. Successful testing also was performed on NASA’s Mars Helicopter, which will be attached to Perseverance. The helicopter will be the first aircraft to fly on another planet.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2020/03/26/millions-tag-along-for-nasas-mars-2020-mission/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/26/2020 08:19 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49701391013/

Quote
NASA Kennedy Follow
KSC-20200316-PH-JPL01_0004


The “Send Your Name to Mars” logo is installed on the Mars Perseverance rover on March 16, 2020, inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. When the rover lands on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021, it will be carrying the names of more than 10 million people throughout the world. Those names were etched onto a microchip, which was placed aboard Perseverance. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted for mid-July from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/27/2020 02:29 pm
A high-res shot of the three chips.  Not quite high-res enough to read the names...  :p
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 04/02/2020 08:36 pm
Guess who is the KSC Lead is for Mars 2020 support?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rocket Science on 04/02/2020 08:42 pm
Awesome Jim, "the right man for the right job"! 8)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/03/2020 09:52 pm
Quote
APRIL 3, 2020
NASA's Perseverance Mars Rover Gets Its Wheels and Air Brakes

After the rover was shipped from JPL to Kennedy Space Center, the team is getting closer to finalizing the spacecraft for launch later this summer.

Final assembly and testing of NASA's Perseverance rover continues at Kennedy Space Center in Florida as the July launch window approaches. In some of the last steps required prior to stacking the spacecraft components in the configuration they'll be in atop the Atlas V rocket, the rover's wheels and parachute have been installed.

Perseverance received its six flight wheels on March 30, 2020. While the rover took a test drive last December, it was on "flight spares" that wouldn't be making the trip to Mars. Designed for the kind of off-roading Perseverance will perform on the Red Planet, the wheels are re-engineered versions of the ones NASA's Curiosity has been using on its traverses of Mount Sharp.

Machined out of a block of flight-grade aluminum and equipped with titanium spokes, each wheel is slightly larger in diameter and narrower than Curiosity's, with skins that are almost a millimeter thicker. They also feature new treads, or grousers: In place of Curiosity's 24 chevron-pattern treads are 48 gently curved ones. Extensive testing in the Mars Yard at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which built the rover and manages operations, has shown these treads better withstand the pressure from sharp rocks and grip just as well or better than Curiosity's when driving on sand.

The Parachute

The job of adding Perseverance's parachute to the back shell, where the rover will be stowed on the journey to the Red Planet, took several days and was finished on March 26. Tasked with slowing the heaviest payload in the history of Mars exploration from Mach 1.7 to about 200 mph (320 kph) during the rover's landing on Feb., 18, 2021, the 194 pounds (88 kilograms) of nylon, Technora and Kevlar fibers are packed so tightly into a 20-inch-wide (50-centimeter-wide) aluminum cylinder that it is as dense as oak wood. When deployed at about 7 miles (11 kilometers) above the Martian surface, the chute will take about a half-second to fully inflate its 70.5-foot-wide (21.5-meter-wide) canopy. 

The Perseverance rover is a robotic scientist weighing 2,260 pounds (1,025 kilograms). It will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet. No matter what day Perseverance launches during its July 17-Aug. 5 launch period, it will land on Mars' Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021.

Perseverance is part of a larger program that includes missions to the Moon as a way to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028 through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans.

For more information about the mission, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

For more about NASA's Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7631
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/06/2020 04:04 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49742599646/

Quote
NASA Kennedy
KSC-20200402-PH-JPL01_0002

Wheels are installed on NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover inside Kennedy Space Center’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility on March 30, 2020. Perseverance will liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in July 2020. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. The rover will land on Mars on Feb. 18, 2021. Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 04/10/2020 06:24 pm
NASA Helicopter Ready to Hitch a Ride to the Red Planet

James Cawley Posted on April 10, 2020

NASA’s Mars Helicopter will make history in about 10 months when it becomes the first aircraft to fly on another world.

Now it has its ride to the Red Planet.

On April 6, 2020, the helicopter was attached to the belly of the agency’s Mars Perseverance rover. The installation took place inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida, where the rover has remained since its Feb. 9, 2020, arrival from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

The twin-rotor, solar-powered helicopter weighs less than 4 pounds; the total length of its rotors is about 4 feet, tip to tip. Its main purpose is a technology demonstration. After Perseverance safely lands on Mars, the helicopter will be released to perform the first in a series of flight tests that will take place during 30 Martian days (a day on Mars is about 40 minutes longer than a day on Earth).

For history’s first flight experimental flight test in the thin Martian atmosphere (less than 1% the density of Earth’s), the helicopter is tasked with hovering in the air a few feet off the ground for 20 to 30 seconds before landing. It is designed to fly on its own, without human control, using minimal commands from Earth sent in advance.

With the helicopter safely tucked away and covered by a shield to protect it during descent and landing, Perseverance will touch down on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted between July 17 and Aug. 5 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/kennedy/2020/04/10/nasa-helicopter-ready-to-hitch-a-ride-to-the-red-planet/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 04/10/2020 06:41 pm
I'm curious how the helicopter deploys from the underbelly once Perseverance is on Mars.  I'm presuming it's something simple since it's almost an afterthought to the rest of the rover.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 04/10/2020 07:09 pm
I'm curious how the helicopter deploys from the underbelly once Perseverance is on Mars.
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8645/mars-helicopter-attached-to-nasas-perseverance-rover/

Looks fairly complicated to me actually; there a power/data cable(s) that has to be demated/cut and what looks like a hinged deployment mechanism that goes through 90 degrees, with an actuator of some kind.  And there are some restraints to hold the legs in a folded position.  I don't know the details.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 04/10/2020 09:27 pm
There appears to be a mylar like covering on the wheels, held on with what looks like tape.

Why the covers?   When do the covers come off?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 04/10/2020 09:39 pm
Why the covers?   When do the covers come off?
I assume they're remove-before-flight to limit contamination.  Certainly MSL didn't fly with blankets on the wheels.  Presumably they'll remove them before putting the rover in the aeroshell.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 04/12/2020 10:36 am
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/16/2020 03:43 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49781344952/

Quote
 
KSC-20200407-PH-JPL01_0006
Engineers perform mass properties testing on NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover inside Kennedy Space Center’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility on April 7, 2020. The rover was rotated clockwise and counterclockwise on a spin table to determine the center of gravity, or the point at which weight is evenly dispersed on all sides. Establishing the rover’s center of gravity will help ensure the spacecraft will land on Mars as calculated. Perseverance will touch down on the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket is targeted between July 17 and Aug. 5 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
NASA image use policy.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/16/2020 04:55 pm
Ouch.

https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1250828202219573249

Quote
In interview with Planetary Radio @exploreplanets, @JimBridenstine says it will cost "upwards of $500 million" over 2 years if Mars 2020 (Perseverance) misses this year's launch window.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 04/16/2020 05:14 pm
Ouch.

https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1250828202219573249

Quote
In interview with Planetary Radio @exploreplanets, @JimBridenstine says it will cost "upwards of $500 million" over 2 years if Mars 2020 (Perseverance) misses this year's launch window.

Yep, that's what happened to Curiosity.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 04/17/2020 01:37 am
Yep, that's what happened to Curiosity.

My hazy memory is that the Curiosity delay cost $437 million (I'm sure somebody could look that information up and get the actual amount). Pop that into an inflation calculator bumping from 2010 dollars to 2020 dollars and you get $517 million.

My guess is that this is just an estimate on NASA's part and not an actual calculation. There was actually money that had to be spent to finish Curiosity, so it was not simply paying the standing army for two years. If you assume that Perseverance is finished, then a 2-year delay could cost less than Curiosity's 2-year delay. But I doubt that any difference would be much more than a rounding error, so the guess is valid.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/20/2020 11:06 pm
Quote
April 20, 2020

NASA's Perseverance Mars Rover Gets Balanced

With 13 weeks to go before the launch period of NASA's Mars 2020 Perseverance rover opens, final preparations of the spacecraft continue at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. On April 8, the assembly, test and launch operations team completed a crucial mass properties test of the rover.

Precision mass properties measurements are essential to a safe landing on Mars because they help ensure that the spacecraft travels accurately throughout its trip to the Red Planet — from launch through its entry, descent and landing.

On April 6, the meticulous three-day process began with Perseverance being lifted onto the rover turnover fixture. The team then slowly rotated the rover around its x-axis — an imaginary line that extends through the rover from its tail to its front — to determine its center of gravity (the point at which weight is evenly dispersed on all sides) relative to that axis. 

The team then moved the rover to a spin table. To minimize friction that could affect the accuracy of the results, the table's surface sits on a spherical air bearing that essentially levitates on a thin layer of nitrogen gas. To determine center of gravity relative to the rover's z-axis (which extends from the bottom of the rover through the top) and y-axis (from the rover's left to right side), the team slowly rotated the vehicle back and forth, calculating the imbalance in its mass distribution.

Just as an auto mechanic places small weights on a car tire's rim to bring it into balance, the Perseverance team analyzed the data and then added 13.8 pounds (6.27 kilograms) to the rover's chassis. Now the rover's center of gravity is within 0.001 inch (0.025 millimeters) of the exact spot mission designers intended.

The Perseverance rover is a robotic scientist weighing about 2,260 pounds (1,025 kilograms). It will search for signs of past microbial life, characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet. No matter what day Perseverance launches during its July 17-Aug. 5 launch period, it will land on Mars' Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021.

The Mars 2020 Perseverance rover mission is part of a larger program that includes missions to the Moon as a way to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028 through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans.

For more information about the mission, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

For more about NASA's Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars

DC Agle
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California
818-393-9011
[email protected]

Grey Hautaluoma / Alana Johnson
NASA Headquarters, Washington
202-358-0668 / 202-358-1501
[email protected] / [email protected]

2020-075       

Last Updated: April 20, 2020
Editor: Randal Jackson

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-perseverance-mars-rover-gets-balancedB

1st attached image caption:

Quote
This image of the Perseverance Mars rover was taken at NASA's Kennedy Space Center on April 7, 2020, during a test of the vehicle's mass properties.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

2nd attached image caption:

Quote
Another view of NASA's Perseverance rover attached to a spin table during a test of its mass properties at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The image was taken on April 7, 2020.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

https://youtu.be/4P9il_a-bkw
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/21/2020 04:41 pm
https://youtu.be/44XjMkeFK0g

Quote
NASA's Kennedy Space Center
How do you land a car-sized robotic scientist on another world? Very precisely! Join us today at 1 p.m. ET to hear from two Mars 2020 entry, descent and landing engineers, Al Chen and Chloe Sackier from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory who will answer this question and more about ‘sticking the Red Planet landing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/29/2020 02:16 pm
https://twitter.com/jimbridenstine/status/1255497750554304514

Quote
Our Mars helicopter will attempt the 1st powered flight on another world. I’m proud to name it Ingenuity.

Ingenuity rarely gets far without perseverance, so it's fitting it will ride on @NASAPersevere & its name was chosen from “name the rover” finalists: go.nasa.gov/2yQ4mF4

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/jpl/alabama-high-school-student-names-nasas-mars-helicopter
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 04/29/2020 03:44 pm
Here’s the accompanying NASA You Tube video of the announcement:

https://youtu.be/0RQWv1ybsjM
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kaputnik on 04/29/2020 08:33 pm
Yep, that's what happened to Curiosity.

My hazy memory is that the Curiosity delay cost $437 million (I'm sure somebody could look that information up and get the actual amount). Pop that into an inflation calculator bumping from 2010 dollars to 2020 dollars and you get $517 million.

My guess is that this is just an estimate on NASA's part and not an actual calculation. There was actually money that had to be spent to finish Curiosity, so it was not simply paying the standing army for two years. If you assume that Perseverance is finished, then a 2-year delay could cost less than Curiosity's 2-year delay. But I doubt that any difference would be much more than a rounding error, so the guess is valid.

What would the standing army actually be doing during a two year stand down? Is it a case of paying a retainer for those required for operations, or is it more hands-on? Just wondering if they could be re-deployed to other projects.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/30/2020 07:26 am
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49833190468/

Quote
KSC-20200409-PH-JPL01_0002
Engineers perform mass properties testing on the rocket-powered descent stage of NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover at Kennedy Space Center on April 9, 2020. The testing to determine the center of gravity, or the point at which weight is evenly dispersed on all sides, was performed inside the Florida spaceport’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility. The descent stage will lower the rover through the thin Martian atmosphere and onto the surface on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff, aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, is targeted between July 17 and Aug. 5 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. The rover will seek signs of ancient life and collect rock and soil samples for possible return to Earth. Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49833705536

Quote
KSC-20200412-PH-JPL01_0006
Engineers perform mass properties testing on the rocket-powered descent stage of NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover at Kennedy Space Center on April 12, 2020. The testing to determine the center of gravity, or the point at which weight is evenly dispersed on all sides, was performed inside the Florida spaceport’s Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility. The descent stage will lower the rover through the thin Martian atmosphere and onto the surface on Feb. 18, 2021. Liftoff, aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, is targeted between July 17 and Aug. 5 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch. The rover will seek signs of ancient life and collect rock and soil samples for possible return to Earth. Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/06/2020 12:47 am
Quote
May 1, 2020

NASA's Perseverance Rover Will Look at Mars Through These 'Eyes'

When it launches this summer, NASA's Perseverance rover will have the most advanced pair of "eyes" ever sent to the Red Planet's surface: Its Mastcam-Z instrument packs a next-gen zoom capability that will help the mission make 3D imagery more easily. Rover operators, who carefully plan out each driving route and each movement of a rover's robotic arm, view these stereo images through 3D goggles to see the contours of the landscape.

Located on Perseverance's "head," Mastcam-Z (the Z stands for "zoom") is a more advanced version of Mastcam, which NASA's Curiosity Mars rover has relied on to produce gorgeous panoramas of the Martian landscape. But it does more than that, and so will Mastcam-Z: Along with producing images that enable the public to follow the rover's daily discoveries, the cameras provide key data to help engineers navigate and scientists choose interesting rocks to study. The difference is that Curiosity's Mastcam can't zoom.

Zoom With a View

Curiosity's Mastcam was initially designed to be zoomable, but that proved difficult to achieve at the time in such a small instrument (Curiosity launched in 2011).

"The original plan was for Curiosity to have a zoom camera that could go out to an extreme wide angle like a spaghetti western view," said Jim Bell of Arizona State University, Mastcam-Z's principal investigator and Mastcam's deputy principal investigator. "It would have been an amazing panoramic perspective but proved really hard to build at the time."

Instead, Curiosity's Mastcam has one telephoto lens and one wide-angle lens. Images are taken through each and can be combined to produce stereo views. But the wide-angle lens takes in far more of the landscape in a single shot than the telescopic one; it requires up to nine telescopic images to match.

Perseverance's Mastcam-Z simplifies matters, zooming both lenses until they match and can be used to make a single 3D image. This is both easier and requires sending fewer images — and less data — to Earth.

Eyes of a Scientist

Besides providing a stereo view to help drivers choose the safest path, Mastcam-Z will help geologists choose scientific targets and better understand the landscape that rock samples are found in: Did they fall from a neighboring cliffside? Are they from an ancient stream?

Mastcam-Z will provide "superhuman vision," viewing the landscape in a variety of colors (wavelengths of light), including some that can't be detected by the human eye. Scanning the terrain in the ultraviolet or infrared, for example, could reveal metal meteorites dotting the surface or color variations indicating compositions that warrant more detailed analysis by other instruments.

Mastcam-Z isn't a spectrometer, which is to say, an instrument that uses light to do detailed scientific analysis. "But it can provide mineral clues that other instruments will follow up on," Bell said.

The camera system can also observe the Sun and sky, watching for transits of Mars' moons across the Sun and measuring how dust storms and cloud formations change over the seasons.

Mars for the People

Bell's first experience with Mars pictures was as an 11-year-old, watching images on the nightly TV news sent back by the Viking landers in 1976. He was later involved in the Mars Pathfinder mission and went on to lead the Pancam systems on the Spirit and Opportunity rovers, which inspired a new generation of Mars fanatics, including future scientists and engineers.

The vistas that Perseverance will send back from its landing site, Jezero Crater, will be just as significant for those who work on the mission and everyone who's following along.

That's why there are plans to share Mastcam-Z images and mosaics made by the amateur community on a public website. "It's important that the public have a sense of ownership," Bell said. "The Mastcam-Z images belong to all of us."

Perseverance is a robotic scientist weighing about 2,260 pounds (1,025 kilograms). The rover's astrobiology mission will search for signs of past microbial life. It will characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet. No matter what day Perseverance launches during its July 17-Aug. 5 launch period, it will land at Mars' Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021.

The Mars 2020 Perseverance rover mission is part of a larger program that includes missions to the Moon as a way to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028 through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans.

For more information about the Perseverance rover:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

https://www.nasa.gov/perseverance

Andrew Good
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
818-393-2433
[email protected]

Alana Johnson
NASA Headquarters, Washington
202-358-1501
[email protected]

2020-089

Last Updated: May 4, 2020
Editor: Tony Greicius

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-perseverance-rover-will-look-at-mars-through-these-eyes

First photo caption:

Quote
A close-up of the head of Mars Perseverance's remote sensing mast. The mast head contains the SuperCam instrument (its lens is in the large circular opening). In the gray boxes beneath mast head are the two Mastcam-Z imagers. On the exterior sides of those imagers are the rover's two navigation cameras.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

Second photo caption:

Quote
This image shows a 3-D printed model of Mastcam-Z, one of the science cameras on NASA's Mars Perseverance rover. Mastcam-Z will include a 3:1 zoom lens.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

Third photo caption:

Quote
This image presents a selection of the 23 cameras on NASA's Perseverance rover. Many are improved versions of the cameras on the Curiosity rover, with a few new additions as well.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 05/07/2020 09:04 pm
Meet Moo Stricker, Mars 2020’s Planetary Protection Engineer:

https://youtu.be/pJtevx4IgOo
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/07/2020 10:19 pm
Quote
NEWS | May 7, 2020
NASA's Perseverance Rover Mission Getting in Shape for Launch

Engineers working on NASA's Perseverance rover mission at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida have begun the process of placing the Mars-bound rover and other spacecraft components into the configuration they'll be in as they ride on top of the United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket. The launch period for the mission opens on July 17 — just 70 days from now.

Called "vehicle stacking," the process began on April 23 with the integration of the rover and its rocket-powered descent stage. One of the first steps in the daylong operation was to lift the descent stage onto Perseverance so that engineers could connect the two with flight-separation bolts.

When it's time for the rover to touch down on Mars, these three bolts will be released by small pyrotechnic charges, and the spacecraft will execute the sky crane maneuver: Nylon cords spool out through what are called bridle exit guides to lower the rover 25 feet (7.6 meters) below the descent stage. Once Perseverance senses it's on the surface, pyrotechnically-fired blades will sever the cords, and the descent stage flies off. The sky crane maneuver ensures Perseverance will land on the Martian surface free of any other spacecraft components, eliminating the need for a complex deployment procedure.

"Attaching the rover to the descent stage is a major milestone for the team because these are the first spacecraft components to come together for launch, and they will be the last to separate when we reach Mars," said David Gruel, the Perseverance rover assembly, test, and launch operations manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California, which manages rover operations. "These two assemblies will remain firmly nestled together until they are about 65 feet [20 meters] over the surface of Mars."

On April 29, the rover and descent stage were attached to the cone-shaped back shell, which contains the parachute and, along with the mission's heat shield, provides protection for the rover and descent stage during Martian atmospheric entry.

Whether they are working on final assembly of the vehicle at Kennedy Space Center, testing software and subsystems at JPL or (as the majority of the team is doing) teleworking due to coronavirus safety precautions, the Perseverance team remains on track to meet the opening of the rover's launch period. No matter what day Perseverance launches, it will land at Mars' Jezero Crater on Feb. 18, 2021.

The Perseverance rover's astrobiology mission will search for signs of ancient microbial life. It will also characterize the planet's climate and geology, collect samples for future return to Earth, and pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet. The Perseverance rover mission is part of a larger program that includes missions to the Moon as a way to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028 through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans.

For more information about the mission, go to:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

For more about NASA's Moon to Mars plans, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/moon-to-mars

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8657/nasas-perseverance-rover-mission-getting-in-shape-for-launch/

1st image caption:

Quote
Perseverance from Below: The rover's descent stage was recently stacked atop the rover at Kennedy Space Center, and the two were placed in the back shell that will help protect them on their journey to Mars. Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech.

2nd image caption:

Quote
Protecting NASA's Perseverance Mars Rover: The cone-shaped back shell for NASA's Perseverance rover mission. Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech.

3rd image caption:
Quote
Perseverance Rover Gets in Launch Shape: This image of the rocket-powered descent stage sitting on to of NASA's Perseverance rover was taken in a clean room at Kennedy Space Center on April 29, 2020. Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/08/2020 06:12 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49870113973/

Quote
NASA Kennedy
KSC-20200422-PH-JPL_0002

The Mars Perseverance rover is attached to its rocket-powered descent stage inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida on April 23, 2020. The rover and descent stage are the first spacecraft components to come together for launch — and they will be the last to separate when the spacecraft reaches Mars. At about 65 feet over the Martian surface, separation bolts will fire and the descent stage will lower Perseverance onto the Red Planet. Launch, aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket, is targeted between July 17 and Aug. 5 from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at Kennedy is managing the launch.
Photo credit: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 05/09/2020 09:17 am
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 05/09/2020 09:18 am
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/18/2020 06:45 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1262451006752690177

Quote
As I get ready to launch as part of the #ClassOf2020, I’m thinking back on all the exams & experiences I’ve been through. See what it takes to prepare an adventurer like me for a new world out there. Good luck to all persevering through tests of your own. go.nasa.gov/2WF29G0

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8671/nasas-perseverance-rover-goes-through-trials-by-fire-ice-light-and-sound/

Images of different testing stages attached. Last 2 are animated
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/18/2020 09:47 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasakennedy/49909781992/

Quote
NASA Kennedy Follow
KSC-20200504-PH-JPL01_0002

Inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida, the Backshell-Powered Descent Vehicle and Entry Vehicle assemblies are being prepared to be attached to the Mars Perseverance rover on May 4, 2020. The cone-shaped backshell contains the parachute, and along with the mission’s heat shield, provides protection for the rover and descent stage during Martian atmospheric entry. The Mars Perseverance rover is scheduled to launch in mid-July atop a United Launch Alliance Atlas V 541 rocket from Pad 41 at nearby Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. The rover is part of NASA’s Mars Exploration Program, a long-term effort of robotic exploration of the Red Planet. The rover will search for habitable conditions in the ancient past and signs of past microbial life on Mars. The Launch Services Program at Kennedy is responsible for launch management. Photo credit: NASA/Christian Mangano
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: theinternetftw on 05/18/2020 11:54 pm
One hour of Mars 2020 B-Roll: assembly, testing, research expeditions, plus some establishment shots of JPL in covid-time.

https://images.nasa.gov/details-JPL-20200515-M2020f-0001-Mars%202020%20Media%20Reel%20Updated
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 05/21/2020 04:30 pm
NASA’s Mars Perseverance Rover Gets a Boost

James Cawley Posted on May 21, 2020

With the addition of a powerful piece of hardware, NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover continues to progress toward its much-anticipated launch in less than two months.

The spacecraft’s booster arrived at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station’s Skid Strip on Monday, May 18. It was then offloaded and taken to United Launch Alliance’s (ULA) Atlas Spaceflight Operations Center.

Perseverance remains on track for its targeted mid-July launch. The rover will liftoff aboard a ULA Atlas V 541 rocket from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. NASA’s Launch Services Program based at the agency’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida is managing the launch.

Perseverance will reach the Red Planet on Feb. 18, 2021. After the rover enters the thin Martian atmosphere, the descent stage — utilizing a tether of nylon cords — will lower Perseverance to the surface of Jezero Crater.

Developed under NASA’s Mars Exploration Program, the rover’s astrobiology mission will search for signs of past microbial life. Ingenuity, the twin-rotor, solar-powered helicopter attached to Perseverance, will become the first aircraft to fly on another world.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2020/05/21/nasas-mars-perseverance-rover-gets-a-boost/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Targeteer on 05/29/2020 01:38 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkQHCSZQvv0&fbclid=IwAR3R0eZrkPfzwjjGRjKAsoj9KNFc1AtqzYw5HqZ0aauW3lJzpMDOyPUx7zE
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ddspaceman on 06/05/2020 03:37 am
https://twitter.com/NSED_ORNL/status/1268537232463466501

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 06/06/2020 09:04 pm
"NASA’s Perseverance Mars Rover Sample Caching System"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFyv8mtRPCA
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: yg1968 on 06/09/2020 11:09 pm
Quote from: Marcia Smith
Jurczyk: we had a little hiccup with ULA and now a 3-day delay to Mars Perseverance launch.  Window opens July 17, but July 20 is first day we can go.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/1270476137630662662
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: yg1968 on 06/13/2020 01:59 pm
Quote from: Tory Bruno
[Reasons for the 3-day delay for the launch] Crane broke down. Now fixed

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1270708510335160322
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/17/2020 02:29 am
https://youtu.be/1k_71RX4NUc

Quote
Building the Mars 2020 rover at JPL. This video won third place honors in the Documentation category of NASA's Videographer of the Year 2019 awards for Samuel Molleur.

Credit: NASA JPL / Samuel Molleur
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/17/2020 06:11 pm
https://youtu.be/yIWyFX0uxoc
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mammutti on 06/17/2020 09:44 pm
Quote
Mars 2020 Perseverance spacecraft stacked inside the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility (PHSF).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/18/2020 08:19 am
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1273336427921563649

Quote
On track for launch in just over a month. The road has been long, but we’re persevering, inspired by the global medical community that’s gone above and beyond during #COVID19. That’s why I’m carrying this tribute plate for them, above and beyond to Mars. go.nasa.gov/37Ev019
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 06/25/2020 07:38 pm
Moderator reminder: the Perseverance launch thread is here (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41005.0).  Launch campaign updates go there.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/01/2020 03:37 pm
What Perseverance Can Do That Past Mars Rovers Couldn’t:

https://youtu.be/RuO9o7HFmss
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 07/02/2020 02:37 pm
An elevation map of Jezero Crater on Mars, the landing site for NASA's 2020 Mars Perseverance rover. Lighter colours represent higher elevation.

Two recent studies based on ESA's Mars Express observations of Jezero crater have shed light on how and when this intriguing area formed – and identified the regions most likely to reveal signs of ancient life.

The crater rim stands out clearly in this colour map, making it easier to spot the shoreline of a lake that dried up billions of years ago. The oval indicates the landing ellipse, where the rover will be touching down on Mars. Scientists are interested in studying this shoreline because it may have preserved fossilised microbial life, if any ever formed on the Red Planet.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/13/2020 07:05 pm
New short form video from NASA about the mission:

https://youtu.be/9m95j0rM9Zs
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/14/2020 07:51 pm
Short JPL documentary on the Ingenuity helicopter:

https://youtu.be/qwdfdE6ruMw
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: yg1968 on 07/20/2020 11:37 pm
https://twitter.com/SpaceFoundation/status/1285279135535820802

https://youtu.be/18zT0AzodbI
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 07/21/2020 11:25 am
They're putting the MMRTG on the rover now (started Monday).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 07/21/2020 11:15 pm
They're putting the MMRTG on the rover now (started Monday).

Promising.  Obviously they only load that when they're pretty sure of the launch date.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: kessdawg on 07/22/2020 12:16 am
They're putting the MMRTG on the rover now (started Monday).

Promising.  Obviously they only load that when they're pretty sure of the launch date.

Is that because now there are extra cooling requirements?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: GClark on 07/22/2020 10:49 am
Extra security requirements.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jacqmans on 07/24/2020 12:59 pm
DLR German Aerospace Center, Corporate Communications, Linder Hoehe, 51147 Koeln, Germany - http://www.DLR.de/en/


DLR Press Release, 24 July 2020

Launch of Mars 2020 scheduled for 30 July 2020 - NASA's Mars 2020 mis­sion will search for traces of past mi­cro­bial life with the Per­se­ver­ance rover


Full article with images: https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/news/2020/03/20200724_nasa-mars-2020-mission-to-search-for-traces-of-past-microbial-life.html

With Perseverance, its most complex Mars rover to date, NASA is opening a new chapter in the search for traces of ancient life on Mars. The launch of the new rover is scheduled to take place on 30 July 2020 at 13:50 CEST on board an Atlas V launch vehicle from Cape Canaveral in Florida. Then, on 18 February 2021 it will land in Mars' Jezero crater. The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum fuer Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) is represented on the Mars 2020 mission science team and is involved in evaluating the data and images. The aim of the mission is to use analyse rock and sediment samples to determine more precisely when Mars may have had ideal conditions for microorganisms to thrive.

When the Perseverance rover lands on Mars in 2021, it will be carrying containers for sample collection. These containers will be filled with drill cores from depths of up to a few centimetres and left on Mars for later return to Earth. The samples will then be transported to Earth by several follow-up missions scheduled to begin in the early 2030s. The rover, which is the size of a small car and has a mass of 1025 kilograms, carries a total of seven scientific instruments, with which it will analyse the geology of the landing site, search for signs of past microbial life in rocks and sediments, and find the most promising samples for subsequent analysis on Earth. To this end, the Mars 2020 mission is carrying another first: a small, 1.8-kilogram helicopter for initial test flights over the landing site in the thin Martian atmosphere.

3D and colour Martian panoramas

"We are very pleased to be part of the science team on this extraordinary mission to Mars," says Nicole Schmitz from the DLR Institute of Planetary Research. "We are particularly excited for the first images taken after landing. With these, we will be able to see the landing site and the nearly four billion-year-old river delta for the first time from the perspective of the rover's Mastcam-Z camera." The image processing for the Mastcam-Z (Mast Camera Zoom) stereo camera builds on the many years of expertise acquired by DLR's Berlin-based planetary researchers through their work with camera technology on missions such as Mars Express, Dawn, MASCOT/Hayabusa2 and Philae/Rosetta.

"The two scientific eyes of Perseverance, for spatial orientation and mineralogical analysis, are located on the rover’s 'head' on the prominent mast," explains Frank Preusker from the DLR Institute for Planetary Research. "Together, they will deliver 360-degree panoramas in 3D and in colour." With its powerful zoom, Mastcam-Z can reveal features as small as a house fly – all the way from a distance about the length of a football pitch. Arizona State University is responsible for scientific management of Mastcam-Z. The Perseverance rover has a total of 23 cameras, more than any other interplanetary mission to date.

Rock analysis under the laser beam

The SuperCam spectrometer is also located on the mast of the rover, directly beside the two eyes of the stereo camera. This instrument allows contactless analysis of the chemical composition and mineralogy of the rover's surroundings. "Like its predecessor 'ChemCam' on the Mars rover Curiosity, the spectrometer uses a pulsed laser to investigate the geochemistry of rocks and soil. It also uses three other spectroscopic techniques and a microphone to investigate the mineral content and hardness of the rock,” explains Susanne Schroeder from the DLR Institute of Optical Sensor Systems in Berlin, who is a member of the scientific team and is mainly involved in data analysis using laser spectroscopy. The SuperCam is scientifically managed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and IRAP/CNES in Toulouse, France.

A river delta and a lake in a crater

Perseverance will land in Jezero crater, located on the western edge of Isidis Planitia, a giant impact basin just north of the Martian equator at approximately 18 degrees latitude, 77 degrees longitude. Some of the oldest and scientifically most interesting landscapes that Mars has to offer are found west of Isidis. High-resolution digital terrain models derived from data obtained by DLR's High Resolution Stereo Camera (HRSC) on board ESA's Mars Express spacecraft have made a significant contribution to the selection and exploration of the landing site. From them, valuable geological data can be calculated, such as the volume of the crater and the delta, as well as the width, depth and gradient of the river, but also the terrain slope within the landing ellipse - one of the most important factors in the selection of the landing site.

It is very likely that the 45-kilometre-wide Jezero Crater was home to a lake more than 3.5 billion years ago. The ancient river delta in the western part of the crater, which contains hydrous minerals such as clay, provides clear evidence. This is also where the crater gets its name: 'Jezero' means 'lake' in several Slavic languages. Scientists believe it is possible that the rivers that flowed into and out of Jezero carried organic molecules, other potential signs of microbial life, or perhaps even microorganisms themselves. Traces of this possible past microbial life could have been preserved in the deposits of the river delta or the lake sediments of Jezero crater and could be found there today. Today, the liquid water on the surface of Mars has disappeared and its atmosphere has thinned to less than one percent of Earth's atmospheric pressure.

Frequent visitors to Mars

Perseverance is now the fifth rover that NASA has sent to Mars. In 1997, Sojourner landed on the Red Planet as part of the Mars Pathfinder mission and sent data and images back to Earth for around three months. This was followed in 2004 by the twin rovers Spirit and Opportunity, which for the first time covered great distances until Martian winter ended communication with Spirit in 2007 and then finally with Opportunity because of a dust storm in 2018. The Curiosity rover, in many respects identical in construction to Perseverance, landed in 2012 and remains active in Gale crater today. In 2018, the most recent landing platform arrived on Mars. The InSight lander is a geophysical laboratory designed to explore the interior of the planet using, among other things, DLR's Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3), which includes the self-hammering thermal probe known as the Mars 'Mole'. NASA's Perseverance rover is initially designed for a mission duration of one Mars year (roughly two Earth years) with the option of extending the mission.

Another rover is scheduled to embark on a journey to the Red Planet to search for traces of past microbial life during the next launch window to Mars in 2022. As part of the ExoMars programme of ESA and the Russian space agency Roscosmos, the Rosalind Franklin rover will extract samples from a depth of up to two metres and perform high-precision analyses for biosignatures. At depth, organic compounds are better protected against destruction by cosmic radiation. DLR is contributing a substantial portion of Rosalind Franklin's scientific payload: A high-resolution camera on the mast of the rover will enable scientists to analyse a variety of different rock types and determine the optimal locations for drilling.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 07/25/2020 04:16 am
https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/news/2020/03/20200724_nasa-mars-2020-mission-to-search-for-traces-of-past-microbial-life.html

 "Martian winter ended communication with Spirit in 2007"

 That would be 2010.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 07/25/2020 08:03 pm
Perseverance compared to Curiosity:

https://youtu.be/UEO77UEFGT4
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/27/2020 04:59 pm
https://youtu.be/yNlAFzG44ko
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: John44 on 07/27/2020 06:26 pm
Mars 2020 Mission pre-launch news conference
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 07/27/2020 07:57 pm
Someday in the future people will write about this mission and they'll have to skip over a lot of stuff. But there are all kinds of odd little things that have changed that might be overlooked.

In this image note that the NASA worm logo appears prominently. You didn't see that only a few months ago. But also note that they're sitting a far distance from each other. (But no masks.) Yeah, the world is an odd place now.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: John44 on 07/27/2020 09:07 pm
Mars 2020 Mission engineering and science briefing
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/28/2020 02:26 pm
Related ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-hQeVPU5aM

But yes, we have a launch vehicle thread:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41005.0
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/28/2020 06:03 pm
https://youtu.be/3SEOiC5IVXA
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: John44 on 07/28/2020 09:49 pm
NASA Edge: Mars 2020 Rollout Show
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61

Mars 2020 Mars Sample Return Briefing
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62

Mars 2020 Mission Tech and Humans to Mars Briefing
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: yg1968 on 07/28/2020 10:33 pm
Technology:

https://youtu.be/Q4r1_HcRYmI


Pre-launch:

https://youtu.be/V0dw0hwBYTs


Science:

https://youtu.be/kG-J9hRVGLQ


NASA Edge Mars 2020 Rollout

https://youtu.be/lnSjq3eHiiY
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: John44 on 07/29/2020 04:59 pm
Mars 2020 NASA Administrator and Center Director briefing
http://space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/29/2020 07:11 pm
Starts in just under 20 mins

https://youtu.be/kUolXe2SjXk
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 07/30/2020 04:57 pm
Succesfully launched on 2020/07/30.
(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41005.0;attach=1958162;image)

Lander separation successful, travel to Mars started:

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1288822464571678720

Signal acquisition:
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1288825894308651012
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 07/30/2020 08:06 pm
A friend told me there was an issue where Percy went into safe mode.  Not finding anything about it.  Anyone have any skinny as to what's happening?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 07/30/2020 08:35 pm
Okay, finally got the info -- what there is of it -- from a JPL announcement that the spacecraft got too cold while in Earth's shadow, which put it into safe mode.  It was stated that they've had this issue in the past, specifically on MSL, but I certainly don't recall it.  If they did, they didn't talk about it at the time...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/30/2020 11:22 pm
Cross-posting from launch thread:

https://twitter.com/jimbridenstine/status/1288974447890833408

Quote
Update on @NASAPersevere: We have received telemetry (detailed spacecraft data) down from the spacecraft and have also been able to send commands up to the spacecraft. Perseverance is healthy and on its way to Mars.

Quote
MISSION UPDATES | Jul. 30, 2020
Mars 2020 Perseverance Healthy and on Its Way

The team controlling NASA’s Mars 2020 Perseverance rover has received telemetry (detailed spacecraft data) down from the spacecraft and has also been able to send commands up to the spacecraft, according to Matt Wallace, the mission’s deputy project manager. The team, based at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California, has confirmed that the spacecraft is healthy and on its way to Mars.

Wallace provided a more detailed update on two issues during launch operations:

“First, the proximity of the spacecraft to Earth immediately after launch was saturating the ground station receivers of NASA’s Deep Space Network. This is a known issue that we have encountered on other planetary missions, including during the launch of NASA’s Curiosity rover in 2011. The Perseverance team worked through prepared mitigation strategies that included detuning the receivers and pointing the antennas slightly off-target from the spacecraft to bring the signal within an acceptable range. We are now in lock on telemetry after taking these actions.

“The second issue was a transient event involving temperature on the spacecraft. The mission uses a liquid freon loop to bring heat from the center of the spacecraft to radiators on the cruise stage (the part that helps fly the rover to Mars), which have a view to space. We monitor the difference in temperature between the warm inlet to the radiators and the cooler outlet from the radiators. As the spacecraft entered into Earth’s shadow, the Sun was temporary blocked by Earth, and the outlet temperature dropped. This caused the difference between the warm inlet and cooler outlet to increase. This transient differential tripped an alarm and caused the spacecraft to transition into the standby mode known as ‘safe mode.’

“Modeling by the team predicted something like this could happen during eclipse – the time when the spacecraft is in Earth’s shadow – but we could not create this exact environment for tests prior to launch. Nor did we have flight data from Curiosity, because its trajectory had no eclipse. We set the limits for the temperature differential conservatively tight for triggering a safe mode. The philosophy is that it is far better to trigger a safe mode event when not required, than miss one that is. Safe mode is a stable and acceptable mode for the spacecraft, and triggering safe mode during this transitional phase is not problematic for Mars 2020.
“With the understanding of the causes of these issues, we are conducting the operations necessary to move the spacecraft back out of safe mode and into normal cruise mode.”

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/launch/status/

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: yg1968 on 07/31/2020 12:06 am
Post-launch press conference:

https://youtu.be/7QYf9p9Faj8

See also this press conference the day before the launch with the NASA Administrator:

What’s the Status of our Perseverance Rover Launch to Mars?
https://youtu.be/lR4hWlL_LYI
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sdsds on 07/31/2020 06:18 am
No independent confirmation of this observation but the source appears to understand radio transmission.
https://twitter.com/r2x0t/status/1288980195026837504/photo/1
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: libra on 07/31/2020 06:33 am
Percy... took me a split second to grasp, this is Perseverance, short name. Cute !
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sdsds on 07/31/2020 07:12 am
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
Not exactly what you want but a place to start?

Yes thanks! [...]

A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 07/31/2020 02:57 pm
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
I'm having trouble understanding why DTE and MRO depend on the launch date.  I'd think these would only depend on the arrival date.

Assuming the targeted landing spot, and the targeted landing date, remain the same, the only things that would vary by launch date is the direction from which Percy approaches the landing spot, and the local time of day of landing (since launch date affects the angle at which the transfer orbit crosses Mars orbit, and hence the time of Mars day when the entry angle is right).  But I don't see why this would affect DTE, which as far as I know is on a low gain antenna during descent, and a pointed antenna after landing.  And for MRO, as soon as it's launched the arrival angle and time are known.  A tiny correction to MRO's orbit now would seem to assure good coverage of the landing in 7 months.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 07/31/2020 03:08 pm
Is there a website that tracks the location of the Percy on its way to Mars, like the Starman trackers?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: bolun on 07/31/2020 03:48 pm
Flight over the Mars 2020 Perseverance rover landing site (https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2020/07/Flight_over_the_Mars_2020_Perseverance_rover_landing_site)

https://youtu.be/4MeRkQ5n7G0
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: arachnitect on 07/31/2020 03:59 pm
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
I'm having trouble understanding why DTE and MRO depend on the launch date.  I'd think these would only depend on the arrival date.

Assuming the targeted landing spot, and the targeted landing date, remain the same, the only things that would vary by launch date is the direction from which Percy approaches the landing spot, and the local time of day of landing (since launch date affects the angle at which the transfer orbit crosses Mars orbit, and hence the time of Mars day when the entry angle is right).  But I don't see why this would affect DTE, which as far as I know is on a low gain antenna during descent, and a pointed antenna after landing.  And for MRO, as soon as it's launched the arrival angle and time are known.  A tiny correction to MRO's orbit now would seem to assure good coverage of the landing in 7 months.



MRO is in a sun-synchronous orbit right? They probably don't want to mess with that.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/31/2020 04:43 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1289237070448271361

Quote
It’s back to normal operations for me as I cruise to Mars. I put over a million miles on the odometer yesterday. Roughly 290 million miles to go in my #CountdownToMars .

Latest status: go.nasa.gov/2P9xoo0
Follow my flight path: go.nasa.gov/30eh63z
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 07/31/2020 05:16 pm
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
I'm having trouble understanding why DTE and MRO depend on the launch date.  I'd think these would only depend on the arrival date.

Assuming the targeted landing spot, and the targeted landing date, remain the same, the only things that would vary by launch date is the direction from which Percy approaches the landing spot, and the local time of day of landing (since launch date affects the angle at which the transfer orbit crosses Mars orbit, and hence the time of Mars day when the entry angle is right).  But I don't see why this would affect DTE, which as far as I know is on a low gain antenna during descent, and a pointed antenna after landing.  And for MRO, as soon as it's launched the arrival angle and time are known.  A tiny correction to MRO's orbit now would seem to assure good coverage of the landing in 7 months.
MRO is in a sun-synchronous orbit right? They probably don't want to mess with that.
Sure, but they've  moved MRO before to cover landers (https://newatlas.com/mars-orbiter-prepares-for-new-arrival/38665/).  Then they move it back to SSO. MRO is a pretty old mission, and one of its main functions is to serve as a relay (since it was built to return high res images, it has a high power, quite fast, connection to Earth.)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ccdengr on 07/31/2020 07:23 pm
Sure, but they've  moved MRO before to cover landers (https://newatlas.com/mars-orbiter-prepares-for-new-arrival/38665/).  Then they move it back to SSO.
To be pedantic, these maneuvers don't leave SSO, they just change the solar time of the equator crossing.  Same thing was done with Mars Odyssey, see https://www.planetary.org/articles/04190923-a-new-angle-on-mars-for-odyssey
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sdsds on 07/31/2020 09:38 pm
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
I'm having trouble understanding why DTE and MRO depend on the launch date.  I'd think these would only depend on the arrival date.

I confess to having little insight into it. The plot is from the "MARS 2020 MISSION DESIGN AND NAVIGATION OVERVIEW" document. I should have linked or attached it originally; apologies. It is attached here now.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sdsds on 07/31/2020 10:22 pm
Madrid now communicating with M20 via DSS 54.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/01/2020 03:09 pm
From the launch thread, regarding a departure/arrival "porkchop plot"
A more official porkchop plot is attached here. Of interest are the constraints regarding MRO and Direct-to-Earth telemetry availability.
I'm having trouble understanding why DTE and MRO depend on the launch date.  I'd think these would only depend on the arrival date.
I confess to having little insight into it. The plot is from the "MARS 2020 MISSION DESIGN AND NAVIGATION OVERVIEW" document. I should have linked or attached it originally; apologies. It is attached here now.
OK, I figured this out, if anybody cares.  There is a hidden variable in the porkchop plot, which is the local time of day at landing.  This is super important to DTE, since the Earth sets about the same time the lander is landing.  Land a few minutes earlier, and the Earth is in sight and DTE is possible through landing ("Full DTE").  Land a little later, and the Earth is visible during descent, but has just set at the landing site.

You can't pick your local time of day for landing - it's set by your trajectory, as you must hit the atmosphere at the correct angle.  All this is illustrated in the picture below, which is not at all to scale.  The left diagram is from the MISSION DESIGN document.  The right is a crude sketch of Mars at arrival.  The spacecraft needs to hit the atmosphere at the same angle (theta) for re-entry.   (Trajectories are shown in the Mars frame for this diagram).  For the same arrival date, a faster trajectory needs an earlier landing.  In the porkchop plot, all the trajectories that are close to minimum energy arrive after the Earth has set, so they won't get DTE all the way through landing.

The MRO variation is more simply explained.  They simply assumed that MRO would be overhead at 3:15 PM local time at the landing site.  Thus in the plot, visibility depends on the actual landing time.  Of course, if needed, MRO could be moved to whatever time is required, but that's not considered here.

 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 08/15/2020 07:17 am
1st Trajectory Correction Maneuver TCM-1 carried out successfully for Feb 18, 2021 arrival and landing
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1294450300095471616 (https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1294450300095471616)

187 days to go
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/ (https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 08/15/2020 08:49 am
Will be interesting to see how accurate this maneuver was
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/15/2020 02:15 pm
The amazing Tony Bela has done this fab Mars 2020 info graphic

Quote from: http://tonybela.com/
FREE printable version below (High resolution version available on my Patreon page)
(Free to use for non-profit and educational purposes. Available for print publications on request)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ncb1397 on 09/05/2020 02:55 pm
Quote
As NASA's Mars rover Perseverance hurtles through space toward the Red Planet, the six-wheeler's twin is ready to roll here on Earth.

A full-scale engineering version of the Mars 2020 Perseverance rover - outfitted with wheels, cameras, and powerful computers to help it drive autonomously - has just moved into its garage home at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California. This rover model passed its first driving test in a relatively tame warehouselike assembly room at JPL on Sept. 1. Engineers expect to take it out next week into the Mars Yard, where a field of red dirt studded with rocks and other obstacles simulates the Red Planet's surface.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7741

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQy1VTd1OJ8
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/15/2020 09:01 pm
https://youtu.be/vUuUyYqI83Q

Quote
Get to know some of the diverse team of engineers and scientists working on NASA's next Mars rover, Perseverance. NASA-JPL engineer Diana Trujillo moved to the U.S from Colombia and paid her way through college by cleaning houses. Join our bilingual conversation to find out how she is helping to find signs of ancient life on Mars through her work on the Perseverance rover's robotic arm. We'll be taking your questions in both English and Spanish live from the chat. The team launched Perseverance on July 30, 2020, and it will land in Mars' Jezero Crater on February 18, 2021. For more information on the Mars 2020 mission, go to: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/
 
Chats are moderated. Inappropriate language or posts that harass other individuals will be removed.
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Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/30/2020 09:16 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1311412934917062656

Quote
I’ve just made my second in-flight course correction, to make sure I stay on target for my date with Mars. ~187 million miles (~300 million kilometers) left to go. Track my flight: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/cruise/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 09/30/2020 09:35 pm
They seem to have pushed the 3rd maneuver ahead to the 18th, by 2 days.  Regardless, Percy now just rests in its tuna can for 2 1/2 months of peace.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 10/21/2020 11:55 am
While we eagerly wait for Perseverance to reach its half-way-point, Sarah Milkovich's (lead science system engineer) talk at this year's Mars Society convention gives a nice overview on the science packages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxwDsAkgk4g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxwDsAkgk4g)

I in particular liked the lab test with Perseverance's instruments examining 2.7 Gyr old fossilized stromatolites...



Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 10/29/2020 11:06 am
Perseverance is half-way on its way to Mars:
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1321139926616997889 (https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1321139926616997889)

112 Earth days (109 Sols) to go ...

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/18/2020 07:17 pm
Quote
NEWS | NOVEMBER 18, 2020
Hear Audio From NASA's Perseverance As It Travels Through Deep Space

The first to be rigged with microphones, the agency's latest Mars rover picked up the subtle sounds of its own inner workings during interplanetary flight.
A microphone aboard NASA's Mars 2020 Perseverance rover has recorded the sounds of the spacecraft as it hurtles through interplanetary space. While another mic aboard the rover is intended specifically to listen for the laser zaps of the SuperCam instrument, this one is devoted to capturing some or all of the entry, descent, and landing (EDL) sequence - from the firing of the mortar that releases the parachute to the Mars landing engines kicking in to the rover wheels crunching down onto the surface.

Data for the 60-second audio file was collected on Oct. 19 during an in-flight checkout of the camera and microphone system that will pick up some of the landing drama at Mars' Jezero Crater early next year.

You can listen to the sound file here:

https://soundcloud.com/nasa/perseverance-rover-sounds

The subdued whirring you hear is from the rover's heat rejection fluid pump. Located at the rear-starboard side of the Perseverance, the pump is part of the rover's thermal system, which will help maintain operational temperatures for vehicle components on even the coldest of winter nights. It does its job by circulating fluid through a heat exchanger mounted adjacent to the always-toasty Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator and then into a network of tubes spread throughout the rover's chassis.

"With apologies to the person who came up with the slogan for 'Alien,' I guess you could say that in space no one may be able to hear you scream, but they can hear your heat rejection fluid pump," said Dave Gruel, lead engineer for Mars 2020's EDL Camera and Microphone subsystem. "The microphone we included to hear what it's like to land on Mars was actually able to pick up Perseverance's thermal system operating in the vacuum of space through mechanical vibration."

Good Vibrations

As any fan of cinematic sci-fi knows, the vacuum of space is a less-than-optimal environment for auditory transmissions. But that doesn't mean sound can't find another way. Sound waves can travel through solid objects. When these mechanical vibrations are registered by an electrical component, they sometimes are turned into an electrical signal. (Anyone listening to music through in-ear headphones may have encountered this phenomenon as a rustling or thumping noise when the headphone cord brushes up against a surface.)

The sound file was processed by DPA Microphones of Alleroed, Denmark, which manufactured the EDL microphone hardware flying on Mars 2020.

"As great as it is to pick up a little audio on spacecraft operations in-flight, the sound file has a more important meaning," Gruel added. "It means that our system is working and ready to try to record some of the sound and fury of a Mars landing."

The EDL microphone was not tailor-made for this mission - or space exploration - and the team does not know quite what to expect from their sound files of landing day.

"Getting sound from landing is a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have," said Gruel. "If it doesn't happen, it will not impede the rover's mission of discovery at Jezero Crater one bit. If even a portion of the landing sequence is captured on audio, that would be awesome."

Humanity's most sophisticated rover is traveling to the Red Planet with the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter. Together, they will enter the Martian atmosphere on Feb. 18, 2021, at 12:47 p.m. PST (3:47 p.m. EST) and will touchdown at Jezero Crater 410 seconds later.

More About the Mission

A key objective of Perseverance's mission on Mars is astrobiology, including the search for signs of ancient microbial life. The rover will characterize the planet's geology and past climate, pave the way for human exploration of the Red Planet, and be the first mission to collect and cache Martian rock and regolith (broken rock and dust).

Subsequent missions, currently under consideration by NASA in cooperation with ESA (European Space Agency), would send spacecraft to Mars to collect these cached samples from the surface and return them to Earth for in-depth analysis.

The Mars 2020 mission is part of a larger program that includes missions to the Moon as a way to prepare for human exploration of the Red Planet. Charged with returning astronauts to the Moon by 2024, NASA will establish a sustained human presence on and around the Moon by 2028 through NASA's Artemis lunar exploration plans.

JPL, which is managed for NASA by Caltech in Pasadena, California, built and manages operations of the Perseverance rover.

For more about Perseverance:

mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

nasa.gov/perseverance

For more information about NASA's Mars missions, go to:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7789

Photo caption:

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In this annotated illustration, the location of the Perseverance rover's entry, descent, and landing microphone is shown. Image credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/26/2020 03:19 pm
There's a new paper posted by Space Science Reviews on the engineering cameras on Perseverance.

This is part of collection of papers on the mission's science instruments: https://link-springer-com.offcampus.lib.washington.edu/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5 (https://link-springer-com.offcampus.lib.washington.edu/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5)

The following list of the *23* cameras is derived from this paper.

Engineering cameras (all are color)
Navcam 2 Rover (mast)
Front Hazcam 4 Rover (body)
Rear Hazcam 2 Rover (body)

Cachecam 1 Rover (internal)

PUCa 3 Parachute structure
DDCa 1 Descent stage
RUCb 1 Rover (top deck)
RDCb 1 Rover (body)
LCAMc 1 Rover (body)

Science cameras
Mastcam-Z 2 Rover (mast)
SuperCam RMI 1 Rover (mast)
PIXL MCC 1 Rover (arm)
SHERLOC ACI 1 Rover (arm)
SHERLOC WATSON 1 Rover (arm)
MEDA SkyCam 1 Rover (top deck)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Sam Ho on 11/26/2020 07:56 pm
There's a new paper posted by Space Science Reviews on the engineering cameras on Perseverance.

This is part of collection of papers on the mission's science instruments: https://link-springer-com.offcampus.lib.washington.edu/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5 (https://link-springer-com.offcampus.lib.washington.edu/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5)

The following list of the *29* cameras is derived from this paper.

Engineering cameras (all are color)
Navcam 2 Rover (mast)
Front Hazcam 4 Rover (body)
Rear Hazcam 2 Rover (body)

Cachecam 1 Rover (internal)

PUCa 3 Parachute structure
DDCa 1 Descent stage
RUCb 1 Rover (top deck)
RDCb 1 Rover (body)
LCAMc 1 Rover (body)

Science cameras
Mastcam-Z 2 Rover (mast)
SuperCam RMI 1 Rover (mast)
PIXL MCC 1 Rover (arm)
SHERLOC ACI 1 Rover (arm)
SHERLOC WATSON 1 Rover (arm)
MEDA SkyCam 1 Rover (top deck)

The link you posted requires a University of Washington login.  I believe the paper below is the underlying paper; it is open access.  Also, the total number of cameras is 23, not 29.

Maki, J.N., Gruel, D., McKinney, C. et al. The Mars 2020 Engineering Cameras and Microphone on the Perseverance Rover: A Next-Generation Imaging System for Mars Exploration. Space Sci Rev 216, 137 (2020).
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 11/26/2020 08:40 pm
Here is the pdf, in case the link disappears:
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 11/26/2020 09:28 pm
The link you posted requires a University of Washington login.  I believe the paper below is the underlying paper; it is open access.  Also, the total number of cameras is 23, not 29.

Maki, J.N., Gruel, D., McKinney, C. et al. The Mars 2020 Engineering Cameras and Microphone on the Perseverance Rover: A Next-Generation Imaging System for Mars Exploration. Space Sci Rev 216, 137 (2020).
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9
Apologies on both accounts; I forget that my browser is almost always logged into the UW system.

This should be the link to the topical collection on Perseverance's instruments:

https://link.springer.com/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5 (https://link.springer.com/journal/11214/topicalCollection/AC_678069f783b1da63370dbb9ce7bfaca5)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 12/16/2020 08:20 am
Interactive geological map of the landing site
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1337468654783516672 (https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1337468654783516672)
which links to
https://planetarymapping.wr.usgs.gov/interactive/sim3464 (https://planetarymapping.wr.usgs.gov/interactive/sim3464)

64 days to go, and 2 days to trajectory correction maneuver 3 (TCM-3)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 12/20/2020 06:52 pm
Successful trajectory correction maneuver 3  :)
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1340029270865801216 (https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1340029270865801216)

The next TCM is planned for Feb 10, 2021, eight days before landing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/22/2020 07:09 am
https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1341257073120714755

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An epic animation depicting NASA's Perseverance Rover landing on Mars next year. Just uploaded to the NASA media servers.

https://images.nasa.gov/details-JPL-20201221-M2020f-0002-EDL%20Full%20Version%20w%20SFX.html
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: dseidel on 12/29/2020 03:10 pm
Please feel free to forward this to educational audiences as widely as you see fit:

Dear Colleagues,
 
On Feb. 18, NASA will attempt to land a new rover named Perseverance on the surface of Mars – the most sophisticated rover ever sent to the Red Planet, on a mission to cache samples to send back to Earth in the future and to search for signs of ancient microbial life. We invite students of all ages, educators, parents, campers, museums and other institutions to participate in the adventure of this historic landing, and we especially welcome participation in a “Mission to Mars Student Challenge” that gives students at all levels the chance to participate in engineering challenges as they work to ‘land’ their own rover on Mars. Please click on the link to find out more and to enroll your classes and teams. We’re looking forward to a national effort in classrooms across the nation as we seek to engage the next generation of engineering and scientific leaders with this amazing mission.
 
NASA also has created a K-12 Mars 2020 STEM Toolkit with links to the “Mission to Mars Student Challenge” to lead students in designing their own Mars mission, and including activities, lessons, interactives, social media and more to allow classrooms, families, and individuals to ride along. In addition, there will be a series of programs broadcast for educators and students in the days and weeks leading up to landing – an event we will all share together as a nation. As always, we welcome this opportunity to include diverse learners in the NASA family.
 
Here are some of the particulars:
* Landing events will be broadcast live on February 18 starting at about 11:00 AM PST/2:00 PM EST in English and Spanish with touchdown at about 12:55 PM PST/3:55 PM EST.  Watch live: https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive (https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive)).
* Your one-stop shop for extensive Perseverance education and public engagement materials and resources is the #CountdownToMars Mars 2020 STEM Toolkit: https://go.nasa.gov/mars-stem-toolkit (https://go.nasa.gov/mars-stem-toolkit).
* Learn all about the “Mission to Mars Student Challenge” launching in January. The challenge culminates on Feb. 18, when students can land their missions along with the Perseverance Mars rover! Participants will also have the opportunity to join live stream Q&As with NASA experts and submit student work and questions for the landing day broadcast: https://go.nasa.gov/mars-challenge (https://go.nasa.gov/mars-challenge).
* Find the schedule for televised educational events in advance of landing day at the Challenge and Toolkit sites and at Mars Watch Online: https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/landing/watch-online/ (https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/timeline/landing/watch-online/).
* Would you like a preview? This video will give you an idea of what Perseverance’s  “Seven Minutes of Terror!” will be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWQxZswXWEM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWQxZswXWEM&feature=youtu.be).
 
This is a historic opportunity to engage all students and inspire them to consider STEM careers. Please share this widely with your colleagues, students, and families and via networks, social media (#CountdownToMars) and newsletters.
 
Regards,
 
David Seidel
STEM Engagement Director
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 01/08/2021 11:47 am
https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1341257073120714755

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An epic animation depicting NASA's Perseverance Rover landing on Mars next year. Just uploaded to the NASA media servers.

https://images.nasa.gov/details-JPL-20201221-M2020f-0002-EDL%20Full%20Version%20w%20SFX.html

Very high quality simulation, but I don't think the skycrane will be still moving while lowering the rover: it will stop, then lower the rover, than fly away.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 01/08/2021 12:53 pm
EDL events with approximate timings:
(https://www.fromspacewithlove.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/nasa-mars-2020-entry-descent-landing-img.png)
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press_kits/mars_2020/download/mars_2020_launch_press_kit.pdf

About the cameras:
(https://i.imgur.com/ypYkHoI.png)
https://trs.jpl.nasa.gov/bitstream/handle/2014/50084/CL%2318-3099.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9/tables/1
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: SMS on 01/22/2021 10:47 pm
NASA TV update (EST):

Feb. 18, Thursday
6 a.m.-12:30 p.m. – Live shots: Mars 2020 Perserverance
2:15 p.m. – Mars 2020 Perserverance landing coverage. Landing at approximately 4:15 p.m.
5:30 p.m. – Mars 2020 Perserverance post-landing coverage
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 01/23/2021 02:57 am
There was a Mars Sample Return sample caching workshop yesterday with very interesting details about how Perseverance will go about its task of collecting and caching samples for later return.  Here are the presentation slides:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fj5ZPFuieCzpJpWYaYDq2OQlq9v6TxN3/ (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fj5ZPFuieCzpJpWYaYDq2OQlq9v6TxN3/)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nRoqv5vK_Kzyzu_JLfGpDb0tGYUnXlvo/ (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nRoqv5vK_Kzyzu_JLfGpDb0tGYUnXlvo/)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u19Svop3Ka3buHUyaemk2p2-7a1L-ZOC/ (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u19Svop3Ka3buHUyaemk2p2-7a1L-ZOC/)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 01/23/2021 02:08 pm
There was a Mars Sample Return sample caching workshop yesterday with very interesting details about how Perseverance will go about its task of collecting and caching samples for later return.  Here are the presentation slides:
Thank you!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 01/25/2021 08:17 am
Experimental page to follow "Mars race" live, based on NASA Horizons officiale ephemeris for Hope, Tianwen and Mars 2020, together with MRO position:

https://jsfiddle.net/spacexplorer2020/5f0uqxe3/23/

( Backup link  (https://sandcastle.cesium.com/#c=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))
(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/optimized/3X/0/a/0a5247bd4ccb0deae71b70251f6599f278ef3d61_2_690x443.jpeg)

Unfortunately it does not implement Mars rotational state (i.e. local time), hence the surface map is just decorative, the longitude of spacecrafts is not meaningful.
Also stars background is not meaningful as does not match to real status.

Use slider in lower section of screen to select current time, or use PLAY/REVERSE button down left to animate the trajectories; use the arrow/triangle rotating around current time to increase/decrease simulation speed.

MSL EDL profile:
(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/optimized/3X/0/e/0e6ca4adaf897e055e2255331cb31f07c062a20e_2_323x500.png)

(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/optimized/3X/d/3/d3ffb72cb02563a0804bf8dc2725f0755d7b6412_2_492x500.png)


Another page to follow single missions:
Mars2020 (http://e)
Hope (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/3d/space-explorer-tracker.html?orbiter=-62&[email protected]&start=2021-01-26%2000:00&stop=2021-03-26%2000:00&step=1d&3dzoom=500000)
Tianwen (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/3d/space-explorer-tracker.html?orbiter=-9901491&[email protected]&start=2021-01-26%2000:00&stop=2021-03-21%2000:00&step=1d&3dzoom=500000)

(Please tune dates, "step" and "3dzoom" appropriately)

Explanation of the "powered EDL" procedure (previously used for MSL/Curiosity), different from "ballistic EDL" of previous missions:
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/1.36950
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/6.2008-6213

Explanation of "bank angle", used to pilot the lander thanks to center-of-gravity offset w.r.t symmetry axis:
(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/original/3X/2/1/216586af88368f5264011ff024c82de41a76af06.png)

Tuning of Bank Angle (alpha here below) causes change in lift force and in sideslip angle (beta here below):

(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/optimized/3X/2/c/2c48cc1fe29dd2948e5613365debca95477b1e6c_2_690x388.jpeg)



Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 01/27/2021 07:06 pm
Pre-Landing News conference coming up on Jan. 27 at 1:30pm PT (4:30pm ET/2130 UTC):
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1354133637067808768 (https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1354133637067808768)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rKVFNtV7c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rKVFNtV7c)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Targeteer on 02/03/2021 11:31 pm
February 03, 2021
MEDIA ADVISORY M21-015
NASA, AIAA Host Discussion on Mars Perseverance Rover Technology

The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) and NASA will host a moderated webinar to discuss technology innovations with NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover during a virtual event at 10 a.m. EST Wednesday, Feb. 10. The event will livestream on NASA’s website and on YouTube through AIAA’s event landing page. 

Perseverance is scheduled to land on Mars Thursday, Feb. 18, and is the largest and most sophisticated rover ever sent to the Red Planet’s surface. The robotic astrobiologist carries an array of cutting-edge technologies that will enable the most precise landing ever and help pave the way for future human missions to Mars.

At the landing site of Jezero Crater, Perseverance will seek signs of ancient life and demonstrate technologies for making oxygen from the Martian atmosphere, provide surface weather updates, and demonstrate the first controlled, powered flight on another planet with the Ingenuity helicopter.

During the webinar, NASA science, technology, and engineering experts involved with the mission will share more about how technology developments have enabled a return to Mars and will advance exploration of it in the future with both robots and astronauts.

Participating in the webinar are:

    Tory Bruno, CEO, United Launch Alliance
    Wanda Sigur, chair, National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine Space Technology Industry-Government-University Roundtable
    Wanda Peters, deputy associate administrator for programs, Science Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters in Washington
    Trudy Kortes, director of technology demonstrations, Space Technology Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters
    Bob Balaram, chief engineer, Ingenuity Mars helicopter, NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California

The moderated session will involve questions from the webinar leader, as well as those who have registered for the event via Zoom. Participation in the Zoom event is limited to 1,000 people and is the only way to ask a direct question, via the chat function.

To register for the Zoom event, go to:

https://aiaa.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_EawhXVLJRK-NsQcMkLT94g

NASA collaborated on the event with AIAA, including guidance from industry and government members who advise on curriculum for the organization’s ASCEND events, which stands for Accelerating Space Commerce, Exploration, and New Discovery.

For more information about Perseverance, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/perseverance

and

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/04/2021 07:58 pm
Follow Mars race in real time!

(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/original/3X/d/6/d6380ee0fbfeee44f07a147670e5650935b553c1.jpeg)
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/3d/marsrace.html
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/08/2021 03:59 pm
Webcast link for landing on the 18th

https://youtu.be/gm0b_ijaYMQ
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 02/09/2021 07:40 pm
Have any of the final trajectory corrections been announced?  The next one (TCM-4) would be happening shortly (as in within next 24 hours) if it's used at all, TCM-5 roughly on the 15th if likewise required.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/09/2021 08:18 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1359247909674307584

Quote
I am on target to reach the Red Planet on Feb. 18, and enjoying the last few days in the #CountdownToMars .

Check out this @NASA_Eyes interactive for a play-by-play visualization of my upcoming Mars landing: https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home?id=cruise_balance_masses_ejected
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/10/2021 12:33 pm
TCM-4 has been cancelled given it was deemed not to be necessary:

https://twitter.com/Madrid_DSN/status/1359494537396310019
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: bolun on 02/11/2021 02:55 pm
How ESA is Helping NASA's Mars lander phone home

NASA’s Mars 2020 Perseverance rover is due to land on the Red Planet at 21:43 CET on 18 February 2021. In order to communicate with Earth from its landing site in Jezero Crater, the rover will rely on spacecraft orbiting Mars to relay the images and other data it collects back to Earth and pass on the commands from engineers beamed across space in the other direction.

ESA’s ExoMars Trace Gas Orbiter (TGO) is one of these spacecraft. As its orbit takes it over the landing site, TGO will enter communication windows with Perseverance and relay data between Earth and the rover via a network of deep space ground stations on Earth, including ESA’s Estrack network.

Related article: ESA Mars orbiters support NASA Perseverance landing (https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Operations/ESA_Mars_orbiters_support_NASA_Perseverance_landing)

https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Images/2021/02/How_ESA_is_Helping_NASA_s_Mars_lander_phone_home
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Targeteer on 02/12/2021 12:14 am
February 10, 2021
MEDIA ADVISORY M21-019
NASA Offers Opportunities for Media to Engage with Mars Perseverance Rover Landing
Perseverance Rover Touchdown (Gradient Illustration)
Perseverance Rover Touchdown (Gradient Illustration)
An illustration of NASA’s Perseverance rover landing on Mars. Hundreds of critical events must execute perfectly and exactly on time for the rover to land safely on Feb. 18, 2021.
Credits: NASA/JPL-Caltech

NASA will host virtual news briefings, live shows, and activities the week of Feb. 15 to discuss events surrounding the landing of its Mars 2020 Perseverance rover. Landing on the Red Planet will occur about 3:55 p.m. EST Thursday, Feb. 18. Live landing commentary will begin at 2:15 p.m. on NASA Television, the agency’s website, the NASA app, and YouTube.

Due to the ongoing coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, the focus will be on virtual opportunities for the media and public, with in-person opportunities onsite at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California limited to members of the media who already have been credentialed.

Perseverance, which launched July 30, 2020, will search for signs of ancient microbial life, collect carefully selected rock and regolith (broken rock and dust) samples for future return to Earth, characterize Mars’ geology and climate, and pave the way for human exploration beyond the Moon. It is NASA’s fifth Mars rover and, if successful, will be the agency’s ninth Mars landing.

Perseverance also is carrying along a technology experiment – the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter – which will attempt the first powered, controlled flight on another planet.

News Briefing and Televised Event Schedule

News briefings will originate from JPL’s Von Karman Auditorium, but all media participation will be virtual. Members of the media who want to participate in any of the news conferences must contact Rexana Vizza ([email protected]) no later than one hour before each briefing’s start time to ask questions over a phone line. Members of the media and public also may ask questions on social media during the events using #CountdownToMars.

All NASA TV news conferences will be available on the agency’s website and the NASA app. Briefing times listed below are Eastern and are subject to change, as are speakers:

Tuesday, Feb. 16

1 p.m. – News conference: Mission Engineering and Technology Overview, featuring:Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA associate administrator for science, NASA Headquarters

    Jennifer Trosper, Perseverance deputy project manager, JPL
    Adam Steltzner, Perseverance chief engineer, JPL
    Erisa Stilley, Perseverance entry, descent, and landing systems engineer, JPL
    Trudy Kortes, director of technology demonstrations, NASA’s Space Technology Mission Directorate (STMD), NASA Headquarters
    Jeff Sheehy, chief engineer, STMD, NASA Headquarters
    MiMi Aung, Ingenuity project manager, JPL

3:30 p.m. – News conference: Mission Science Overview, featuring:

    Lori Glaze, director, NASA’s Planetary Science Division, NASA Headquarters
    Ken Williford, Perseverance deputy project scientist, JPL
    Katie Stack Morgan, Perseverance deputy project scientist, JPL
    Luther Beegle, principal investigator, Scanning Habitable Environments with Raman & Luminescence for Organics & Chemicals (SHERLOC) instrument, JPL
    Jim Bell, principal investigator, Mastcam-Z instrument, Arizona State University, Tempe
    Sylvestre Maurice, deputy principal investigator, SuperCam instrument, Institut de Recherche Astrophysique et Planétologie, Toulouse, France

Wednesday, Feb. 17

1 p.m. – News conference: Mission Landing Update, featuring:

    Lori Glaze, director, NASA’s Planetary Science Division, NASA Headquarters
    Matt Wallace, Perseverance deputy project manager, JPL
    Jennifer Trosper, Perseverance deputy project manager, JPL
    Allen Chen, Perseverance entry, descent, and landing lead, JPL
    Kaitlin Liles, deputy chief engineer, Mars Entry, Descent, and Landing Instrumentation 2 (MEDLI2) sensor suite, NASA’s Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia
    Ken Farley, Perseverance project scientist, Caltech, Pasadena, California

3 p.m. – News conference: Searching for Ancient Life at Mars and in Samples Returned to Earth, featuring:

    Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA associate administrator for science, NASA Headquarters
    Bobby Braun, Mars Sample Return program manager, JPL
    David Parker, director of human and robotic exploration, ESA’s European Space Research and Technology Centre (ESTEC), Netherlands
    Mary Voytek, director of NASA’s astrobiology program, NASA Headquarters
    Ken Williford, Perseverance deputy project scientist, JPL
    Libby Hausrath, participating scientist for returned sample science, University of Nevada Las Vegas

Thursday, Feb. 18

2:15 p.m. – Live landing commentary on the NASA TV Public Channel and the agency’s website, as well as the NASA App, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitch, Daily Motion, and THETA.TV.

In addition, an uninterrupted clean feed of cameras from inside JPL Mission Control, with mission audio only, will be available at 2 p.m. EST on the NASA TV Media Channel and at the JPLraw YouTube channel.

A 360-degree livestream of the Mars landing from inside mission control, including landing commentary, will be available at the NASA-JPL YouTube channel.

2:30 p.m. – “Juntos Perseveramos,” the live Spanish-language landing commentary show, on NASA en Español’s YouTube channel.

About 3:55 p.m. – Expected time of Perseverance touchdown on Mars

No earlier than 5:30 p.m. – Post-landing news conference originating from Von Karman Auditorium

Friday, Feb. 19

1 p.m. – News conference: Mission status update

Monday, Feb. 22

2 p.m. – News conference: Mission status update

To watch news conferences and commentary online, visit:

http://www.youtube.com/nasajpl/live

A complete list of ways to watch online can be found at:

https://go.nasa.gov/3ojDWkj

Interview Opportunities

Live shots and remote live interviews via Zoom will be offered from 4 to 7 p.m. EST Wednesday, Feb. 17, and 6 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. EST Thursday, Feb. 18.

To book a live shot window, media should complete and submit the form at: https://forms.gle/afTsM9PwHfbgZebX9.

Interview requests outside of those windows can be arranged by filling out the form at: https://bit.ly/mars-landing-media or by calling JPL’s Digital News and Media Office at: 818-354-5011.

Additional Resources

A Perseverance landing toolkit provides additional details about all the activities planned for landing week, as well as additional links for learning more about the rover and helicopter.

Find Mars 2020 Perseverance animations and videos and the b-roll media reel, as well as a visualization of each step of entry, descent, and landing.

Press kits for the Perseverance rover and the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter feature deeper dives into the mission, science, and technology.

For more about Perseverance:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/

and

https://nasa.gov/perseverance

For more about Ingenuity:

https://mars.nasa.gov/technology/helicopter

-end-
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/12/2021 12:36 pm
Will the EDL sequence timeline solidify in the coming days? NASA's publications only give an estimated touchdown time (which does not match the time from the ESA graphic!), with all other sequence events being listed as T-x or E+x (E being entry time, also left undefined). It makes it very frustrating to try and figure out what the UTC times for sequence events actually are!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/12/2021 05:16 pm
Will the EDL sequence timeline solidify in the coming days? NASA's publications only give an estimated touchdown time (which does not match the time from the ESA graphic!), with all other sequence events being listed as T-x or E+x (E being entry time, also left undefined). It makes it very frustrating to try and figure out what the UTC times for sequence events actually are!
I looked for an ultimate timeline for month to fill in data in my simulator page (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/MSL/index.html), but no luck, I found half a dozen different timelines...

We could approximately refer to Mars Science Laboratory timeline, given that landing profile should be the same:

(https://i.imgur.com/HvQ7SU0.png)
https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/handle/2346/67507/ICES_2016_70.pdf?sequence=1

I think I'll use it in my page,... or probably give up and use official NASA MARS2020 simulator. (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home)

By the way, that page have some timings for each phase, we could extract them.....
From that page:

Quote
"Entry, Descent and Landing
Pre-landing visualization
This is a real-time simulation of the planned entry, descent, and landing of the Mars 2020 mission, which will land the Perseverance rover at Jezero crater on Mars on February 18th, 2021. On the day of the event itself, the timeline may be slightly different, but this represents the expected set of events using the best available engineering data."


Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/12/2021 05:41 pm
Found official but unofficial  ::) timeline!

Raw (JSON format): https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/assets/story.json  (hacked from https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/)

JSON to  Excel converter: http://convertcsv.com/json-to-csv.htm

My processing:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZiycxPY.png)

Text format:
title   raw    Seconds from EI    Seconds from previous   hh:mm.ss
Entry Interface Point   540,085    -         00:00.00
Guidance Start   594,875    55     55    00:00.55
Heading Alignment   679,75    140     85    00:02.20
Begin SUFR   766,25    226     87    00:03.46
Parachute Deploy   783,275    243     17    00:04.03
Heat Shield Separation   804,269    264     21    00:04.24
TRN Image Acquisition Begins   864,305    324     60    00:05.24
TRN Valid Solution   871,156    331     7    00:05.31
Backshell Separation   889,035    349     18    00:05.49
Descent Stage Throttle Down   930,813    391     42    00:06.31
Rover Separation   933,345    393     3    00:06.33
Touchdown - Flyaway   949,453    409     16    00:06.49
Descent Stage Engine Cutoff   956,855    417     7    00:06.57
Surface Operations   967,855    428     11    00:07.08


ENTRY INTERFACE POINT: 2021-02-18 21:48:14 UTC


Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/12/2021 06:47 pm
Percy is now almost at the Mars gravitational sphere of influence

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1360305431982182400
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/13/2021 07:04 am

I eventually found a video of EDL which actually lasts the "6 minutes of terror" rather than just 3 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNTPcFbixPg
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/15/2021 01:15 am
Percy is now falling towards Mars, in hyperbolic Mars orbit instead of solar orbit

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361014933627015169
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/16/2021 12:58 am
Mars fleet update, Feb 16. Percy continues to close as TW-1 and Al'Amal orbit Mars.

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361480156355960832
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/16/2021 11:55 am
Found some SPICE kernels (https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/MARS2020/kernels/spk/) more up-to-date than NASA Horizons; using SPY.exe tool I was able to determine the periods they cover, but I didn't find any clue about the meaning of "CLH", "JEZ" and "NES" in the filenames:
m2020_edl_nom_clh_v2.bsp  - 2021-02-18 13:12:01   -   2021-02-18  13:18:23
m2020_edl_nom_jez_v2.bsp  - 2021-02-18 20:24:38   - 2021-02-18  20:31:15
m2020_edl_nom_nes_v2.bsp - 2021-02-18 20:25:02   -  2021-02-18 20:31:31

They are 3 scenarios for 3 landing sites (http://wolfcry.net/assets/papers/2018-Mars-2020-Surface-Mission-Performance-Analysis-Part-2-Surface-Traversability.pdf):
CLH = Columbia Hills
JEZ = Jezero crater
NES = NE Syrtis

Jezero crater was eventually selected as actual landing site.

Loading these kernels into webgeocalc  (https://wgc.jpl.nasa.gov:8443/webgeocalc/)I was able to get these charts for the planned path of MARS2020 EDL: see attachment

Comparison to Mars Science Laboratory recorded path:
(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/original/3X/0/e/0e6ca4adaf897e055e2255331cb31f07c062a20e.png)




Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/16/2021 01:16 pm
Mars Traffic Status, 2021 Feb 16 0500 UTC, Inner Zone:

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361539376757497858
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/16/2021 01:18 pm
Mars Traffic Status, 2021 Feb 16 0500 UTC, Outer Zone:

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361539053364068357
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/16/2021 01:45 pm
It’s Landing Week for NASA’s Mars 2020 Perseverance Rover

Tony Greicius Posted on February 15, 2021

Some 201 days after launch from Cape Canaveral, Florida, the Perseverance rover has just under three more days of “cruise” before its planned Feb. 18 landing at Mars’ Jezero Crater. As of Feb. 14, the rover had traveled over 288 million miles (464 million kilometers) of its 292.5-million-mile (470.8-million-kilometer) journey to the Red Planet. The spacecraft is about 124 million miles (about 200 million kilometers) from Earth and about 514,000 miles (827,000 kilometers) from Mars. The mission team reports spacecraft velocity is 64,123 mph (103,197 kph) relative to Earth, 5,750 mph (9,253 kph) relative to Mars, and 48,004 mph (77,255 kph) relative to the Sun. One-way light time – the time it takes for a signal to travel from Earth to the spacecraft – is 11 minutes, 2 seconds.

During the cruise phase of the mission (the time between launch and landing), engineers on Earth have been keeping close tabs on the spacecraft. Major activities during cruise have included:

Checking spacecraft health and maintenance
Monitoring and calibrating the spacecraft and its onboard subsystems and instruments
Performing attitude correction turns (slight spins to keep the antenna pointed toward Earth for communications and to keep the solar panels pointed toward the Sun for power)
Conducting navigation activities, such as trajectory correction maneuvers, to determine and correct the flight path before atmospheric entry.
Preparing for entry, descent, and landing (EDL) and surface operations, a process that includes tests of communications, including the communications to be used during EDL.

While Perseverance is getting ready to land this Thursday, Feb. 18, you can get ready, too! Use this toolkit to get the latest updates, download materials, and tune into programs as we get ready to #CountdownToMars. The first of many pre-landing news briefings begin Tuesday, Feb. 16, at 10 a.m. PST (1 p.m. EST). You can view the full schedule – including educational shows, news briefings, and landing-day commentary – at our “Watch Online” guide.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2021/02/15/its-landing-week-for-nasas-mars-2020-perseverance-rover/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/16/2021 06:02 pm
twitter.com/sgira22/status/1361745443818987522

Quote
At NASA @NASAPersevere briefing, the deputy project manager Jennifer Trosper says the spacecraft is operating “perfectly” and all systems are go for landing. #Mars2020 

Watch now live

https://twitter.com/sgira22/status/1361751890573332483

Quote
The mission has decided not to execute TCM-5, the latest correction to the planned and nominal trajectory indicating that as long as there are no surprises, Perseverance's propulsion system has concluded its extraordinary task. #MarsPerseverance

https://youtu.be/P-M1Jb7FlSg
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/17/2021 07:35 am
https://youtu.be/uN_WvzhM1oY
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/17/2021 11:46 am
This  (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/orrery/#/sc_perseverance?time=2021-02-17T12:15:40)should be a realtime current statusviewer, as opposite to this future status simulator. (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/)

It is still not clear to me the scheduled time for atmosphere entry: the "future simulator" shows me 21:48, but now I think it's not UTC, it's my local time! And I'm at UTC+1!

The SPICE kernel I analyzed, created several months ago, provides these UTC dates for start/end of EDL:
2021-02-18 20:24:38
2021-02-18 20:31:15

Today (feb/18) at 13:55 is planned the TCM-6, last chance for correction maneuver: if we see a tweet saying "TCM-6 performed" or "TCM-6 not needed", we'll know which one is the right timeline.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/17/2021 12:36 pm
Another try at the Mars traffic plot. This one gives both XY and XZ projections to give more of a 3D feel, at 4 different zoom levels. Spacecraft names now abbreviated so they overlap less. Other conventions same as before.

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361946192104615936
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/17/2021 01:26 pm
Mars Express and MAVEN will both be well above Perseverance during entry, and MRO will just be popping above the horizon. Will any of them be conducting observations as with Curiosity?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/17/2021 01:37 pm
Another try at the Mars traffic plot. This one gives both XY and XZ projections to give more of a 3D feel, at 4 different zoom levels. Spacecraft names now abbreviated so they overlap less. Other conventions same as before.

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1361946192104615936
where do you get realtime data for spacecrafts?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/17/2021 02:36 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/We_Martians/status/1361743702503288832
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/17/2021 02:47 pm
One Day Till Mars Landing

Tony Greicius Posted on February 17, 2021

NASA’s Perseverance rover, with the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter attached to its belly, is on track to land on the Red Planet tomorrow, Feb. 18, 2021. Since launch, it has traveled over 291 million miles (468 million kilometers), and has about 1,260,000 miles (2,035,000 kilometers) left on its journey to Mars. Mission controllers expect to receive confirmation on Feb. 18 that it has hit the top of the Martian atmosphere at around 3:48 p.m. EST (12:48 p.m. PST) and touched down gently on the surface at around 3:55 p.m. EST (12:55 p.m. PST).

Watch live commentary of landing starting at 2:15 p.m. EST (11:15 a.m. PST)  on landing day on NASA TV. For more information about virtual landing livestreams, including details on a special livestream for students at 12:30 p.m. EST (9:30 a.m. PST), visit the mission’s watch online page.

And be sure to keep your eyes peeled, because cities around the country are celebrating the landing by lighting the town red. The Empire State Building in New York began lighting its tower red on Tuesday, Feb. 16, starting at sunset, the Los Angeles International Airport gateway pylons will glow red from sundown beginning today, Wednesday, Feb. 17. Other sites in the United States recognizing the upcoming landing include select buildings along the Chicago skyline, such as the Adler Planetarium.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2021/02/17/one-day-till-mars-landing/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/17/2021 04:17 pm
Current look at the nasa animation, been checking every little while and it’s fun to see Mars slowly coming closer and closer. Tomorrow is the big day.  :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/17/2021 09:22 pm
From a presentation today giving an overview of the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2021 12:18 am
Mars Traffic Report, 2021 Feb 18 0100 UTC, XY and XZ projections

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1362204421938163712
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/18/2021 03:19 am
I'm reposting these two slides from above. They were not part of the presentation on Wednesday. I actually created these slides for a graduate class talk that I was supposed to give that got canceled because of the weather in Texas.

I was one of two study directors on the last decadal survey (I am also a study director on the current decadal). I was responsible for the Giant Planets and Primitive Bodies panels. I didn't do the Mars panel back then, but I also supported the steering committee, and was in on all the deliberations there. So I got to see the recommendations coming together, and I helped write the report that ultimately recommended what eventually became the Perseverance rover.

When the steering committee was deciding which flagship missions to put at the top of its priority list both the Max-C sample caching rover and the Jupiter Europa Orbiter were equally ranked in terms of science. But there were problems with both of them. As then conceived, they were too expensive to fit into the planetary budget. Max-C was linked with the European ExoMars rover, and JEO was just a big expensive spacecraft.

The concern with the dual rover mission was that it would be very difficult to land two rovers at the same time and the spacecraft would get very complex and expensive. However, there was an obvious way to bring the cost down for Max-C, which was to a) separate it from ExoMars, and b) tell NASA to use the existing Curiosity design. (Keep in mind that this was before Curiosity landed.) So Max-C could be de-scoped by the decadal survey. When the decadal looked at JEO, however, there was no obvious way to de-scope it. The committee did not know what instruments could be removed, how the orbit could be changed, and so on. It just wasn't possible for the decadal survey to do. So their solution was to tell NASA to do it: figure out a way to de-scope JEO so that it could be affordable. NASA then told JPL to study doing that.

So the decadal survey wrote this recommendation in the report. It then took some time to actually get the mission approved. And there was some back-room maneuvering that went on as well because OMB did not want to approve the mission. But it did finally get approved and built and then launched to Mars.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: jcm on 02/18/2021 04:22 am
This  (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/orrery/#/sc_perseverance?time=2021-02-17T12:15:40)should be a realtime current statusviewer, as opposite to this future status simulator. (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/)

It is still not clear to me the scheduled time for atmosphere entry: the "future simulator" shows me 21:48, but now I think it's not UTC, it's my local time! And I'm at UTC+1!

The SPICE kernel I analyzed, created several months ago, provides these UTC dates for start/end of EDL:
2021-02-18 20:24:38
2021-02-18 20:31:15

Today (feb/18) at 13:55 is planned the TCM-6, last chance for correction maneuver: if we see a tweet saying "TCM-6 performed" or "TCM-6 not needed", we'll know which one is the right timeline.


2024:38 UTC  presumably corresponds to entry interface? The current landing press kit says 3.48pm EST (presumed ERT) which is 2048 UTC ERT which is 2037 UTC SCET.   
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 06:55 am
https://twitter.com/larsblackmore/status/1362262819744346114

Quote
Our recent Starship flights have reminded me what a luxury it is to figure out landing iteratively. It's an entirely different ballgame for my friends at @NASAJPL, who have to get it right first time, every time. Best of luck to you all!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 07:41 am
https://youtu.be/sty0e6l3Y3Y
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 08:33 am
Informal names for the landing areas. Bullseye would be in Timanfaya (a natural park in the Canary Islands, Spain):
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 10:55 am
View this morning from the nasa animation, Mars now coming in hot.

Today is the day  ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 11:26 am
New countdown page: now user can specify "his own" Entry Interface time, and countdowns will update accordingly:

(https://i.imgur.com/a9JBy6B.png)

http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/EDL/countdown-MARS2020.html

Events dates (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/assets/story.json) are taken live from NASA eyes page (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2021 12:09 pm
This is @NASAPersevere's destination: a >3.5-billion-year-old delta inside #JezeroCrater.

The landing ellipse—the smallest of any Mars lander EVER—is shown in white on a fantastic* CTX colour mosaic compiled by @jccwrt.

*and huge: this image is scaled down and is 3840×2160 px!

https://twitter.com/ThePlanetaryGuy/status/1362176198936248325
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 01:27 pm
Another view update.

6 hours until cruise stage sep.

6 hours and 16 minutes to touchdown.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 01:33 pm
Chris G’s featured article for today’s big event:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/02/perseverance-ready-for-daring-at-jezero-crater/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2021 02:26 pm
Perseverance Will Land on Mars Today

Naomi Hartono Posted on February 18, 2021

NASA’s Mars 2020 Perseverance rover, with the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter attached to its belly, is on target to touch down gently on the Red Planet around 3:55 p.m. EST (12:55 p.m. PST) today, Feb. 18, 2021.

The entry, descent, and landing team started on console at mission control at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory at 8:30 a.m. EST (5:30 a.m. PST) this morning. They are preparing for the spacecraft to start blazing through the Martian atmosphere at around 3:48 p.m. EST (12:48 p.m. PST). At the time of landing, Mars will be 127 million miles (204 million kilometers) from Earth. At this distance, the one-way light time – the amount of time for a signal to get from Perseverance to Earth – is 11 minutes, 22 seconds.

A special landing livestream for students will start at 12:30 p.m. EST (9:30 a.m. PST), and the live landing commentary show starts at 2:15 p.m. EST (11:15 a.m. PST). For more information about how to watch these shows, visit the mission’s watch online page.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2021/02/18/perseverance-will-land-on-mars-today/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 02:44 pm
Now at around 5 hours to touchdown.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 03:26 pm
This is @NASAPersevere's destination: a >3.5-billion-year-old delta inside #JezeroCrater.

The landing ellipse—the smallest of any Mars lander EVER—is shown in white on a fantastic* CTX colour mosaic compiled by @jccwrt.

*and huge: this image is scaled down and is 3840×2160 px!

https://twitter.com/ThePlanetaryGuy/status/1362176198936248325

View it on Google Earth, with EDL trajectory based on SPICE kernels!

http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/EDL/MARS2020.kml
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/18/2021 03:31 pm
All most home, not far now.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 04:11 pm
Some of the work the team (even today) has been up to:

https://twitter.com/LongHairNasaGuy/status/1362309665573400579
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 04:30 pm
Coming up on around 3 hours to cruise stage sep

Around 3 hours and 14 minutes to touchdown (and another 12 minutes from that of confirmation)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Apollo-phill on 02/18/2021 05:30 pm
Just completed live interview with UK regional BBC Radio re NASA Mars 2020 Perseverance landing scheduled for tonight.

Longer live BBC Radio  interview scheduled for tomorrow afternoon  hopefully discussing successful landing and future Mars programs .

My first BBC Radio interview about Mars was for the NASA Mariner 4 flyby in November 1964!! Yikes - seems like an era away now !

Phill Parker
UK
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 05:48 pm
About 2 hours to landing. Mars is now ever so close.....
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/18/2021 06:05 pm
Mission Control Feed is live.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrbJ63qUc4
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/18/2021 06:06 pm
Currently doing the count for go for EDL.

All systems Go for EDL.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/18/2021 06:12 pm
JPL's 360 live view is live now. If you want to have a look around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIooAx_GkJs
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 06:13 pm
EDL simulator visualizer tracking live too:

https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 06:14 pm
DSN Madrid tracking solidly, as will be throughout EDL:

https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1362446828789248000
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/18/2021 06:23 pm
EDL simulator visualizer tracking live too:

https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home)

I believe this is the correct link for a live-like simulation: https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/orrery/#/sc_perseverance

Not sure if it's based on SCET or ERT though.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mn on 02/18/2021 06:24 pm
EDL simulator visualizer tracking live too:

https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home)

Make sure to turn on the 'live' mode. (click the 'live' button in the lower middle section
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 06:26 pm
Mars in the face of perseverance.

Around 90 minutes to landing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 06:26 pm
EDL simulator visualizer tracking live too:

https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/mars2020/#/home)

I believe this is the correct link for a live-like simulation: https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/orrery/#/sc_perseverance (https://eyes.nasa.gov/apps/orrery/#/sc_perseverance)

Not sure if it's based on SCET or ERT though.

I believe the one I linked to has the nice animations and side explanations of EDL events. The one you link to might be more accurate (?) with respect to orbital behavior - attitudes are different for example.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 06:27 pm
Transmitter off poll underway.

Edit: GO for transmitter off, the hands will be taken off the steering wheel shortly, and control will be entirely on perseverance here on out
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sevenperforce on 02/18/2021 06:27 pm
I have a moderately-sized TikTok following that does a lot of politics and science, and someone complained that they needed a more interactive explanation of Perseverance, so here you go...

https://www.tiktok.com/@justlydeserved/video/6930685627306495238?sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=6894697463014770182&is_from_webapp=v1&is_copy_url=0
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 06:33 pm
Polling on the orbiters around mars has been complete, and all are go to support data relay.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2021 06:42 pm
Perseverance Ready for Landing

Tony Greicius Posted on February 18, 2021

Live coverage of NASA’s Mars 2020 Perseverance rover landing is about to start on NASA TV and YouTube. More information about how to watch these streams, which include a 360-degree view from inside mission control, is on the mission’s watch online page. Share photos of you and your loved ones watching landing with the hashtag #CountdownToMars.

In the next several minutes, mission controllers are expected to turn off the transmitter sending commands to the spacecraft. At that time, they will have effectively taken their hands “off the wheel,” leaving Perseverance to complete the programmed landing sequence on its own. The spacecraft is expected to hit the top of the Martian atmosphere at around 3:48 p.m. EST (12:48 p.m. PST) and touch down at around 3:55 p.m. EST (12:55 p.m. PST). Perseverance will land with NASA’s Ingenuity Mars Helicopter attached to its belly. 

Two NASA Mars orbiters will relay data on the Perseverance Mars rover landing back to Earth – the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and the Mars Atmosphere and Volatile EvolutioN (MAVEN) spacecraft. They are part of the Mars Relay Network.

MRO is expected to relay detailed Perseverance engineering data to Earth in near-real-time. MAVEN will also be flying over Perseverance’s landing site around the same time, recording the same data as MRO. MAVEN, however, will only be able to transmit its data hours after the rover lands. Both orbiters send data back through the antennas of NASA’s Deep Space Network (DSN).

Since the rover has preprogrammed landing instructions and significant autonomy, Perseverance can land safely on Mars without a communications link. There are additional scheduled playbacks of the data from MRO and MAVEN, as well as additional orbiter overflights, after landing, that can relay signals from the rover.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2021/02/18/perseverance-ready-for-landing/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: OxCartMark on 02/18/2021 06:50 pm
I'm just tuning in and after a look around the room I'm disappointed to see that we're apparently going to be doing this without Bobak Ferdowsi.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 06:55 pm
1 hour to landing!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:01 pm
Warning: for some reason, MARS2020 version of eyes.nasa.gov is WRONG, it shows a WRONG approach attitude! That attitude was used BEFORE (I can't remember if MSL used it yet), then they figured out that the risk of cruise stage recontact was too big, and they changed the approach attitude.
The lander will turn toward Mars only after jettisoning cruise stage perpendicularly to its path to Mars.

(https://i.imgur.com/l7W767e.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:01 pm
Perseverance transmitter is confirmed off, now truly on its own the rest of the way down.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:07 pm
Spacecraft is now in EDL main mode.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:09 pm
DSN Madrid tracking solidly, as will be throughout EDL:

https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1362446828789248000

I see 14 and 63 now:
(https://i.imgur.com/nKUq7Bs.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/TkvWbv0.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:14 pm
EDL Lead and some other leads giving remarks to everyone in the control room.

To end the remarks: Godspeed perseverance!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:21 pm
No peanuts allowed in MC due to pandemic rules.
Flight? has however just consumed one peanut in everyone's name, to keep up with tradition.
:)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:25 pm
DSN support
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 07:25 pm
Warning: for some reason, MARS2020 version of eyes.nasa.gov is WRONG, it shows a WRONG approach attitude! That attitude was used BEFORE (I can't remember if MSL used it yet), then they figured out that the risk of cruise stage recontact was too big, and they changed the approach attitude.
The lander will turn toward Mars only after jettisoning cruise stage perpendicularly to its path to Mars.

Thanks for setting the record straight wrt the attitude, I wasn't sure which one was right!

The cruise stage will also fire its thruster in an avoidance maneuver upon separation (in about 20 mins now)

I'm just tuning in and after a look around the room I'm disappointed to see that we're apparently going to be doing this without Bobak Ferdowsi.

You can still follow him on Twitter, he's live :) https://twitter.com/tweetsoutloud (https://twitter.com/tweetsoutloud)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:26 pm
Cruise stage separation should be occurring right now, confirmation in around 11 minutes and 22 seconds that this has happened nominally.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:30 pm
Last-minute fixing of my countdown page (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/EDL/countdown-MARS2020.html), now it should show correct dates/times upon inputting proper entry interface time... as soon as we discover it!!

(https://i.imgur.com/Kn7ssUs.png)

Less than 10 minutes to first event: cruise stage separation

(https://i.imgur.com/8Yk54Wt.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:34 pm
Pyro's powering up
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:35 pm
Firing Pyro's to vent HRS liquid and gas
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:35 pm
First pyros have fired.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mlindner on 02/18/2021 07:38 pm
Is there a mission net audio only stream somewhere? I don't need the overly-muffled double-masked not-clearly-speaking people talking over the net audio.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:38 pm
Cruise stage sep confirmed!!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 07:38 pm
Cruise stage separation confirmed
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:39 pm
Just heard voice confirmation from live NASA TV about correctness of times of my countdown: they are in "Earth Received Time".
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:40 pm
De spin has occurred.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:40 pm
Balance masses have separated.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mythos917 on 02/18/2021 07:41 pm
Is there a mission net audio only stream somewhere? I don't need the overly-muffled double-masked not-clearly-speaking people talking over the net audio.

Mission Control clean feed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrbJ63qUc4
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:42 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/wjS3AuV.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:43 pm
Is there a mission net audio only stream somewhere? I don't need the overly-muffled double-masked not-clearly-speaking people talking over the net audio.

https://youtu.be/gm0b_ijaYMQ

(also at the bottom of my countdown page: http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/EDL/countdown-MARS2020.html)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:43 pm
5 minutes to entry interface confirmation.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: a2soup on 02/18/2021 07:46 pm
At this moment, Perseverance hopefully has already landed on Mars! Just following the signals as they come in now.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:46 pm
Getting GOOD TONES. Percy is healthy as it approaches the atmosphere.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:48 pm
Entry interface confirmed!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:49 pm
Amazing screen sometimes on live feed from NASA!

(https://i.imgur.com/ZKON9Ho.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:49 pm
Getting slower, guidance has converged to landing point
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Chris Bergin on 02/18/2021 07:50 pm
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1362504602873176067
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:50 pm
Past max deceleration
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: kevinof on 02/18/2021 07:51 pm
10 earth G max reported.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:52 pm
SUFR has started!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sevenperforce on 02/18/2021 07:52 pm
Confirmation of chute deployment!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:53 pm
CHUTE OUT,
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 07:53 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1362505438302928896

Quote
Whoosh – I’ve ditched my heat shield and am looking straight at Mars for the first time! Just over 2 mins to landing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:53 pm
Parachute!

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 07:54 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1362505581488082945
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/18/2021 07:54 pm
1 minute to powered descent

(https://i.imgur.com/fp0nNw6.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:54 pm
Back shell sep confirmed!!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: AndrewRG10 on 02/18/2021 07:54 pm
Viewers o the main NASA stream have surpassed peak viewership of FH demo of 2.2 million. Another success for space as YouTubes most popular livestreams are now dominated by Space events
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 07:54 pm
https://twitter.com/nasapersevere/status/1362505848228958209
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:55 pm
Percy is being lowered!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:55 pm
LANDED!!!!!

PERSERVERANCE IS WHEELS DOWN ON MARS!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 07:56 pm
Way to go Percy!!!!!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 07:56 pm
https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1362506315315245056
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: clongton on 02/18/2021 07:57 pm
On the ground!!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: pb2000 on 02/18/2021 07:58 pm
first image in
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Liss on 02/18/2021 07:59 pm
Well done, congratulations!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 07:59 pm
WE HAVE IMAGE!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:00 pm
We have pictures.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 08:02 pm
https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1362507235109265413
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rocket Science on 02/18/2021 08:04 pm
Peanuts for everyone! Congrats! 8)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 08:06 pm
Many congratulations to NASA for a flawless, on target landing!

My family’s names, including mine, are now on Mars ... and it’s my birthday!  :D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/18/2021 08:08 pm
Go Percy!! Hit the road and show us that lovely Red Planet.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:08 pm
My name is also on Mars.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Semmel on 02/18/2021 08:09 pm
Congratulations to all of the Perseverance team. In moments like this, I am proud for my brothers and sisters in science. :) Have a very successful mission. Smiling ear to ear :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:09 pm
Many congratulations to NASA for a flawless, on target landing!

My family’s names, including mine, are now on Mars ... and it’s my birthday!  :D

Happy Birthday FST! What a gift.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/18/2021 08:10 pm
Many congratulations to NASA for a flawless, on target landing!

My family’s names, including mine, are now on Mars ... and it’s my birthday!  :D
Same here! My birthday is tomorrow, but the gift I received today!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: HVM on 02/18/2021 08:10 pm
Images:
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kaputnik on 02/18/2021 08:11 pm
Congratulations, another outstanding success from JPL. I was slightly less nervous than in 2012, but only just.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:11 pm
Congrats to NASA JPL and all involved with this amazing mission and it's only just started. And also congrats to the star of the show...Perseverance.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kesarion on 02/18/2021 08:11 pm
Congrats to the team! Fingers crossed this rover finds biosignatures tomorrow! 8)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RotoSequence on 02/18/2021 08:13 pm
Congratulations NASA and JPL -- and ULA for getting them on their way!

It feels good to be able to breathe again with that nail-biter of a landing.  ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mlindner on 02/18/2021 08:13 pm
Congrats JPL/NASA!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 08:14 pm
Congratulations to the many who poured out their lives into making this day a reality. Despite the setbacks, and despite what life had to throw in the way of last year and today, you all truly lived up to the rover name of persevering.

Now, let’s SCIENCE!  ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Surfdaddy on 02/18/2021 08:14 pm
Congratulations to JPL. My name is on Mars, and I got to see Perserverance under assembly about a year ago on a JPL tour!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/18/2021 08:14 pm
Anyone have the navmap overlay? From the cheering, sounded like TRN got them pretty danged close!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/18/2021 08:16 pm
Blog: NASA’s Perseverance Has Landed

Naomi Hartono Posted on February 18, 2021

Cheers erupted in mission control at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory as controllers confirmed that NASA’s Perseverance rover, with the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter attached to its belly, has touched down safely on Mars. Engineers are analyzing the data flowing back from the spacecraft.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/mars2020/2021/02/18/blog-nasas-perseverance-has-landed/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/18/2021 08:22 pm
Order is returning in MC. Currently transitioning from Flight to Surface operations.
Stations are being polled for their telemetry. As far as I can tell (with limited knowledge) everything seems nominal.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:23 pm
Sounds like they had plenty of landing  fuel to spare.
And there is a new crater on Mars from the powered descent module.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freda on 02/18/2021 08:25 pm
My name is also on Mars.
I join your celebration.  The name of my son who is no longer with us is on Mars.  We love you James.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 08:26 pm
Sounds like they had plenty of landing  fuel to spare.

Flew away with about 96 kg of spare fuel (around 25%).

Haven't had a chance yet, so also heartfelt congratulations from my side to JPL, NASA and the USA in general, after the difficult past year. Excellent step forward for all of humanity too!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/18/2021 08:26 pm
Sounds like they had plenty of landing  fuel to spare.
And there is a new crater on Mars from the powered descent module.

A very healthy margin for the fly-away maneuver after rover was cut free.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Moskit on 02/18/2021 08:27 pm
Incredible!
It feels positively strange that an object I've seen on Earth is now on another planet, in one piece.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eric z on 02/18/2021 08:27 pm
 I love the enthusiasm the Acting Administrator displayed during his interview! Well done to everyone!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mlindner on 02/18/2021 08:27 pm
Looks like JPL has shut down the JPLraw stream.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/18/2021 08:28 pm
Of the two landing confirmation images, the one that does not feature much of Percy's shadow, below, seems to show a streak of smoke running from left to right, near the horizon.  Curiosity saw the cloud raised by the explosion of its descent stage; I wonder if this is what we're seeing here?

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 08:29 pm
https://twitter.com/astrovicglover/status/1362512608633487363

Quote
Team @NASAPersevere, from @space_station crew, well done!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: malu5531 on 02/18/2021 08:32 pm
Congratulations Mars rover team! So amazing live coverage!  :) :) :)

Looking forward to beautiful images and amazing research.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 08:32 pm
Performance of David Bowie’s “life on Mars” to end the broadcast.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 08:33 pm
Landing area is in the "Cañón de Chelly" area (Arizonian natural preserve), just southeast of the bullseye square:
https://twitter.com/jccwrt/status/1362514739671298051
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/18/2021 08:33 pm
"Of the two landing confirmation images, the one that does not feature much of Percy's shadow, below, seems to show a streak of smoke running from left to right, near the horizon.  Curiosity saw the cloud raised by the explosion of its descent stage; I wonder if this is what we're seeing here?"

I think that is a distant ridge, not dust or smoke.  Could be wrong - let's see what the first Navcam panorama shows.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/18/2021 08:34 pm
What kind of fuel does the powered descent module use?
I can't find that information.

Never mind, I found it.

Hydrazine monopropellant

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/18/2021 08:34 pm
I'm assuming we will see the exact landing point at the post-landing press conference.  They certainly made it sound like they know exactly where it landed.  I haven't run across any timing on the presser -- has anyone seen when to expect it might begin?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/18/2021 08:36 pm
"Of the two landing confirmation images, the one that does not feature much of Percy's shadow, below, seems to show a streak of smoke running from left to right, near the horizon.  Curiosity saw the cloud raised by the explosion of its descent stage; I wonder if this is what we're seeing here?"

I think that is a distant ridge, not dust or smoke.  Could be wrong - let's see what the first Navcam panorama shows.

Yeah.  What looks like smoke above that horizon could be dirt on the lens, as well.  A good Navcam pan is what's wanted, here, you're absolutely right.  :D

Hey -- we're on MARS!  Again!  :D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Xentry on 02/18/2021 08:37 pm
I'm assuming we will see the exact landing point at the post-landing press conference.  They certainly made it sound like they know exactly where it landed.  I haven't run across any timing on the presser -- has anyone seen when to expect it might begin?

It is all but 100% certain they will know, since the TRN apparently worked and the output of that system is "I'm here!" with a 40m error margin. 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: joncz on 02/18/2021 08:38 pm
I'm assuming we will see the exact landing point at the post-landing press conference.  They certainly made it sound like they know exactly where it landed.  I haven't run across any timing on the presser -- has anyone seen when to expect it might begin?

Just before ending the webcast, they said post-landing presser would be at 1730ET
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 02/18/2021 08:42 pm
Yeah.  What looks like smoke above that horizon could be dirt on the lens, as well.  A good Navcam pan is what's wanted, here, you're absolutely right.  :D
I believe that the lens have post-landing ejectable covers.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/18/2021 08:43 pm
Yes, the circular outlines of the images are the edges of the covers, not yet ejected.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: tyrred on 02/18/2021 08:47 pm
Congratulations to everybody involved!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ap0s on 02/18/2021 08:50 pm
I really wish NASA or JPL would continue to broadcast comms or video from mission control. The stock videos they replay on NASA TV remind me of the channels they play in doctors offices.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/18/2021 08:50 pm
Congratulations to all concerned in this mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 08:53 pm
https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1362519497308045316

Quote
Just confirmed that the post-landing news briefing is still on for 5:30 pm ET.  #MarsPerserverance
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: HVM on 02/18/2021 08:57 pm
Raw images now online:
https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ (https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/18/2021 09:13 pm
Not official, but looks like a match for the terrain hazard image.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ddspaceman on 02/18/2021 09:18 pm
https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1362522181398241281

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: PahTo on 02/18/2021 09:25 pm

Amazing--congrats to everyone involved to get to this point.  The ability to use terrain hazard mapping for the landing is (was) incredible.  Now--on to the mission at hand!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 09:26 pm
Nasa TV shows the presser starting in 5 minutes.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 09:30 pm
https://youtu.be/9OCxouQGnns
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 09:51 pm
In a delay currently, hasn’t started yet.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FinalFrontier on 02/18/2021 09:55 pm
Big congratulations to the entire JPL team on this landing. That's 2-0 for sky crane fantastic news and further proves this method is sound for landing large objects on Mars even in terrible terrain.

I sincerely hope the next big object that lands on Mars will be a Starship.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 09:57 pm
Presser starting
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 10:01 pm
Jurczyk: got a phone call about an hour after landing from the president of the United States, and his first words were “congratulations man”  :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:04 pm
Zurbucken ripping a contingency plan copy :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/18/2021 10:04 pm
https://twitter.com/potus/status/1362536116197470210

Quote
Congratulations to NASA and everyone whose hard work made Perseverance’s historic landing possible. Today proved once again that with the power of science and American ingenuity, nothing is beyond the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 02/18/2021 10:05 pm
Zurbuchen ripped up the contingency plan script!  ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nascent Ascent on 02/18/2021 10:19 pm
I can't help but think they should have made at least a dozen sets of parts for such a proven design. I bet Elon would have launched these for a great price. All the R&D expense is paid
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: b0objunior on 02/18/2021 10:21 pm
I can't help but think they should have made at least a dozen sets of parts for such a proven design. I bet Elon would have launched these for a great price. All the R&D expense is paid
The plutonium they have left is low.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:23 pm
I can't help but think they should have made at least a dozen sets of parts for such a proven design. I bet Elon would have launched these for a great price. All the R&D expense is paid

For starters you wouldn't have the plutonium to power them. But sure, hopefully they'll find future use for the design.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:24 pm
1.2º tilt.

Unofficial amateur estimates from the single visible hazard map during the broadcast were spot on.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:27 pm
Team waiting the Odyssey (short) overflight and ESA's TGO long data relay within the next few hours with some high-resolution images (with covers ejected), short thumbnail movies from the engineering cameras and hopefully some descent images.

105 W from the RTG. Batteries charged.

Rover sending UHF, high-gain antenna not yet deployed. Will do so around the same time the main mast is brought up.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nascent Ascent on 02/18/2021 10:29 pm
I can't help but think they should have made at least a dozen sets of parts for such a proven design. I bet Elon would have launched these for a great price. All the R&D expense is paid

For starters you wouldn't have the plutonium to power them. But sure, hopefully they'll find future use for the design.

Inventory the parts until....
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:32 pm
Landed southeast of delta, around 2 km away.

Right on boundary between two geologic units: mafic floor (smoother region where it actually landed) and olivine-bearing unit (rougher area right next to it, where the dunes are). Nice to start looking at some of these boundaries in the delta region, which is the whole point of the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ThereIWas3 on 02/18/2021 10:38 pm
For scale, what is the distance between the two circular dark craters just to the North?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:38 pm
All EDL movies expected on Earth within the next few days.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:39 pm
Expecting to go around the dune field towards the delta (rather than over it).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:42 pm
For scale, what is the distance between the two circular dark craters just to the North?

Center-to-center should be around a mile (roughly 1 km from rim to rim).


This interactive map is quite handy: https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Mars_Express/An_interactive_map_to_explore_Jezero_crater
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: redliox on 02/18/2021 10:44 pm
Sounds like Sol 4 is when we should expect most of the best images relayed.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/18/2021 10:47 pm
Rover should already have fired pyros releasing hazcam lens covers and HGA.

Sol 2 should see mast deploy, after HGA lock with Earth.

Instrument checkouts will take until Sol 4-5.

Panoramas will be made around sol 4. New SW also loaded around that time, followed by 4 days of transitioning / checkout.

First drive around 5 m back and forth once checkout is complete and robot arm is deployed (within 1-2 weeks). Then, look for place to drop Ingenuity on.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/18/2021 11:06 pm
Presser over
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/18/2021 11:17 pm
I can't help but think they should have made at least a dozen sets of parts for such a proven design. I bet Elon would have launched these for a great price. All the R&D expense is paid
The plutonium they have left is low.

You don't need plutonium. All you need is Elon.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/18/2021 11:21 pm
Interesting question and answer about this image. Somebody asked him to characterize how dangerous this landing was considering all the red (bad) terrain around it. The answer was that the map is actually biased a bit to make it look more dangerous. That gives them an added margin of safety. (I presume this means that the red areas are actually larger on the map than in reality, so they could have landed on the edge of one and still been fine.)

They'll have better information on that later, and of course they'll have better images from the rover itself of what the nearby area is actually like.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: punder on 02/18/2021 11:26 pm
For scale, what is the distance between the two circular dark craters just to the North?

Center-to-center should be around a mile (roughly 1 km from rim to rim).


This interactive map is quite handy: https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Mars_Express/An_interactive_map_to_explore_Jezero_crater
Thanks for this link. One of the panoramic view markers is perfectly positioned to give an excellent view of the landing location!

Congratulations to NASA/JPL and all their vendors, including my company, which supplied the channel simulator used to sim/test the RF link between Perseverance and Ingenuity.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Retired Downrange on 02/19/2021 12:03 am
Interesting question and answer about this image. Somebody asked him to characterize how dangerous this landing was considering all the red (bad) terrain around it. The answer was that the map is actually biased a bit to make it look more dangerous. That gives them an added margin of safety. (I presume this means that the red areas are actually larger on the map than in reality, so they could have landed on the edge of one and still been fine.)

They'll have better information on that later, and of course they'll have better images from the rover itself of what the nearby area is actually like.

An answer given at the press conference was that this image is a “conservative” representation of possible landing areas. The red areas include any surface where the risk of unsuccessful landing due to the terrain is 4% or greater. This gives the guidance software choices of landing zones which are 96% free of terrain hazards.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sevenperforce on 02/19/2021 12:52 am
Tory Bruno was kind enough to retweet my Perseverance-themed Space Shanty....

https://twitter.com/torybruno/status/1362522181398241281
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/19/2021 01:17 am
When do we expect the next data download? There was mention that MAVEN recorded data of the landing, and looking at NASA eyes the trace gas orbiter is now visible to Earth again.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hartspace on 02/19/2021 01:38 am
When do we expect the next data download? There was mention that MAVEN recorded data of the landing, and looking at NASA eyes the trace gas orbiter is now visible to Earth again.
I think they said that they would get the data overnight at the presser.  So I'd expect some new pictures (and maybe some landing pictures) by tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/19/2021 02:35 am
When do we expect the next data download? There was mention that MAVEN recorded data of the landing, and looking at NASA eyes the trace gas orbiter is now visible to Earth again.
I think they said that they would get the data overnight at the presser.  So I'd expect some new pictures (and maybe some landing pictures) by tomorrow morning.

Yes, they said that.

Also adding my own congrats to everyone involved in this mission. What an epic landing (in both method and accuracy). Beautiful refinement of advanced technology.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/19/2021 05:38 am
There's some serious hinting going on in space twitter right now... and one can only be impatient about it:

https://mobile.twitter.com/LongHairNasaGuy/status/1362615973627322368

https://mobile.twitter.com/LongHairNasaGuy/status/1362616536972726275
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: libra on 02/19/2021 05:40 am
When will the helicopter fly ?

http://spaceflighthistory.blogspot.com/2020/05/mars-airplane-1978.html

 8)  8)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/19/2021 06:36 am
Similar theme.

https://twitter.com/shannonmstirone/status/1362657071187943426
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/19/2021 06:38 am
When will the helicopter fly ?

http://spaceflighthistory.blogspot.com/2020/05/mars-airplane-1978.html

 8)  8)

I would not expect first flight any sooner than about 3 weeks from now. In addition to all the EDL data that needs to be sent to Earth, Percy still has a bunch of instrument checkouts and similar initial equipment tests to do before they will try even moving around. We will get a full panorama of the landing site, too. They will look for a suitable place to set down the helicopter after that.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/19/2021 06:40 am
https://twitter.com/infographictony/status/1362591681397186563

Quote
UPDATE: post-landing infographic update of Mars 2020 Perseverance: the story so far & 7 minutes of “fun”. Larger free versions are now on my website. Free to use for educational/personal non-profit projects including YouTube videos. tonybela.com
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/19/2021 07:20 am
Time to start monitoring Hirise pages for parachute pictures... :-)


https://www.uahirise.org/releases/mars-2020/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Moskit on 02/19/2021 07:46 am
When will the helicopter fly ?
"In the spring", from post-landing conference.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/19/2021 08:00 am
Link for Friday’s press conference

https://youtu.be/kNVzxeYjE9Q
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Apollo-phill on 02/19/2021 08:39 am
During the NASA coverage of the EDL phase, I thought I heard them say they had "..telemetry problems.." but that it then later resolved itself.

Is that correct and, if so, what and when and how long did it last ?

But, huge congratulations to all the Mars2020 teams for successful landing and operations to date and to all the other teams ( like DSN,MRO,MAVEN etc) as well. And to the NSF members 😃


Phill

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: litton4 on 02/19/2021 08:44 am
They mentioned that the backshell interrupted the stream for a bit and also they lost lock due to the re-entry plasma (expected)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/19/2021 09:09 am
They mentioned that the backshell interrupted the stream for a bit and also they lost lock due to the re-entry plasma (expected)

Cruise stage, not backshell, but yes.

While we wait for HiRISE images, some renders based on the imaged position showing the rover's perspective on the surface:

https://twitter.com/_TheSeaning/status/1362554302049435652
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/19/2021 11:27 am
Roscosmos congratulates NASA on landing on Mars.

10:39 19.02.2021 (updated: 10:45 19.02.2021)

MOSCOW, February 19 - RIA Novosti. " ROSCOSMOS " NASA greeted with successful landing rover Perseverance on Mars , according to Telegram-channel corporation.

"On behalf of the management of the state corporation Roscosmos, I congratulate the team of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, as well as the jet propulsion laboratory on the successful landing of the Perseverance rover on Mars. I wish you all good luck and fully implement the scientific research program!" - cited in the message the words of the deputy general director of "Roscosmos" for international cooperation Sergei Savelyev.

On February 18, the American research vehicle Perseverance landed in the vicinity of the boat Jezero on Mars.

The Mars 2020 mission with the Perseverance rover launched from Earth last July. The fifth rover in NASA history is equipped with seven scientific instruments to study the structure and geology of the Red Planet. The main task will be the collection of samples of Martian soil, which are expected to be delivered to Earth in the future. On board Perseverance - an experimental device for obtaining oxygen from the atmosphere of Mars, as well as a "space helicopter", which is to fly for the first time on another planet.

https://ria.ru/20210219/mars-1598131286.html
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: kdhilliard on 02/19/2021 02:15 pm
Congrats Mars 2020 team! ... but nitpicking a couple of things (because nerds fixate on details):

1. The scale bar on this landing spot graphic from yesterday's post-landing presser is totally off, right?  Just eyeballing it, isn't it more like 2/3 of a km than 10 km?

2. Our feature article on the landing -- NASA, Perseverance in epicly successful entry, descent, and landing at Jezero Crater, Mars (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/02/perseverance-ready-for-daring-at-jezero-crater/) by Chris G -- has a landing timeline, with these three entries at the end:

Event  Time of Event  Earth-Receive Time of event  Altitude / Velocity
Descent Stage Throttle Down  15:43:23 EST  15:54:45 EST  Altitude: 0.21 km Velocity: 6.0 km/h
Rover Separation  15:43:27 EST  15:54:49 EST  Altitude: 0.16 km Velocity: 9.9 m/s
Touchdown / Flyaway  15:43:42 EST  15:55:04 EST  Altitude: 0.00 km Velocity: 0.00 m/s

The last two velocities were originally 9.9 km/s and 0.00 km/s, based on the press info NASA had sent out.  That clearly makes no sense, so I PMed Chris, and we decided that while it was a bit strange to shift units for those final two velocities, 9.9 m/s made more sense than 9.9 km/h (2.75 m/s) as it still had 160 m (minus tether length?) to descend in 15 seconds.

But that left me wondering about the accuracy of the 6.0 km/h (1.7 m/s) at 210 m figure.  Was the Sky Crane really planned to bring it nearly to a stop at that attitude, then to increase the descent rate at throttle down?

Anyone here have inside info on this?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Pete on 02/19/2021 02:49 pm
.
.
.
Anyone here have inside info on this?

People make mistakes. Even NASA people.
Example:
The last two velocities were originally 9.9 km/s and 0.00 km/s
9.9 m/s made more sense than 9.9 km/h
Guess you got used to typing and  seeing km/s?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ShaunML09 on 02/19/2021 02:54 pm
I won't pretend to fully understand everything here but there did appear to be some readouts on tango delta information

https://twitter.com/MigOnMars/status/1362508825908027393
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: kdhilliard on 02/19/2021 03:21 pm
People make mistakes. Even NASA people.
Certainly. And here at NSF we attempt to correct our articles to be as technically accurate as possible, hence my request for any any inside information

Quote
Example:
The last two velocities were originally 9.9 km/s and 0.00 km/s
9.9 m/s made more sense than 9.9 km/h
Guess you got used to typing and  seeing km/s?

I'm not following you.  The info from NASA was 9.9 km/s and 0.00 km/s.  That's obviously wrong, and the question Chris G and I faced was, if it was only a units typo, then was it intended to be km/h or m/s?  km/h would be consistent with the rest of the table, but since 9.9 km/h would appear to be too slow at that point, and the shift to km/s implied that they might have intended to shift units for the final figures (just not to km/s), then 9.9 m/s seemed the best choice.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ShaunML09 on 02/19/2021 03:24 pm
Get Hyped!

https://twitter.com/wapodavenport/status/1362794827205791753

Hearing the HD video of Mars Perseverance EDL is insane. Six specially designed cameras were rolling through the "7 minutes of terror" for first landing video. I'm thinking this will be pretty awesome at IMAX.

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1362793317440884743

NASA / JPL announcement expected at 1800 UTC.
This time, it's aliens.
In the sense that to a Martian, Perseverance is an alien.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/19/2021 03:42 pm

But that left me wondering about the accuracy of the 6.0 km/h (1.7 m/s) at 210 m figure.  Was the Sky Crane really planned to bring it nearly to a stop at that attitude, then to increase the descent rate at throttle down?

Anyone here have inside info on this?
Detailed analysis of MSL EDL based on official NASA SPICE kernels (already posted here (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38208.msg2192568#msg2192568)):
(https://discourse-data.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/original/3X/0/e/0e6ca4adaf897e055e2255331cb31f07c062a20e.png)

For MARS2020 of course it is not yet available the post-landing SPICE kernels (it may take months or years to precisely calculate position, speed, acceleration from raw data), but this is the prelanding plan for Jezero:

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=38208.0;attach=2012770;image)

Here  (https://wgc.jpl.nasa.gov:8443/webgeocalc/#StateVector)you can obtain plots from kernel data, although it's a little tricky:
- manual select MARS2020 folder
- manually select SPK folder in Kernels folder (SPK are vector kernels)
- chose the "right" (?) kernel (currently only "m2020_edl_nom_jez_v2.bsp" loks promising: "EDL nominal for Jezero target")
- use -168 as target, MARS for observer and IAU_MARS for frame
- use PLANETOGRAPHIC for "state representation"
- select which plots you want

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/19/2021 03:52 pm
I won't pretend to fully understand everything here but there did appear to be some readouts on tango delta information
Beware: "Tango Delta" call is kind of a "secret code" for Touch Down; "secret" because "Touch Down" in MSL/MARS2020 is not "landing", and may cause premature enthusiasm: TD means "rover wheels on ground, rover still attached to skycrane; if something goes wrong, skycrane could bring the rover together with her while flying away".

The full process is:
Rover separation
Rover going down for 7.5m along the bridles
Bridle snatch: rover completely gone down to full bridle length, slight acceleration recorded by skycrane, which kept slowly going down while deploying rover
Touch down: wheels on ground, 3 bridles + 1 umbilical still connected to both rover and skycrane. Skycrane detects weight reduction and reduces power, to stand still rather than going up
Bridle cut: 3 bridles are cut by the rover, 1 umbilical remains connected
Fly away maneuver: skycrane flies away, ripping off the umbilical: if all goes fine, the rover remains where it is...
Landing confirmed.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/19/2021 04:04 pm
Fly away maneuver: skycrane flies away, ripping off the umbilical: if all goes fine, the rover remains where it is...

And the bolded part is where the "RIMU stable" callout comes in, RIMU=rover inertial measurement unit. 5 seconds after that the landing is declared a success (you can see in the Curiosity landing coverage that Adam Steltzner was counting with his fingers before tapping Allen Chen on the back to make the final callout) as by that time the descent stage should be well away and pose no danger.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/19/2021 04:10 pm
Last part of EDL path as recorded, obtained   (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/3d/space-explorer-tracker.html?orbiter=-168&[email protected]&start=2021-02-18%2020:39&stop=2021-02-18%2021:00&step=500&3dzoom=10000&radius=3392.0528064727)from NASA Horizons raw data (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%27YES%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27VECTORS%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&VEC_LABELS=%27YES%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27YES%27&OBJ_DATA=%27YES%27&VEC_TABLE=%273%27&STEP_SIZE=%27100%27&START_TIME=%272021-2-18%2021:30%27&STOP_TIME=%272021-2-18%2022:0%27&COMMAND=%27-168%27&CENTER=%[email protected]%27&):

(https://i.imgur.com/2eY8ZA3.png)

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/19/2021 04:38 pm
I'm not following you.  The info from NASA was 9.9 km/s and 0.00 km/s.  That's obviously wrong, and the question Chris G and I faced was, if it was only a units typo, then was it intended to be km/h or m/s?  km/h would be consistent with the rest of the table, but since 9.9 km/h would appear to be too slow at that point, and the shift to km/s implied that they might have intended to shift units for the final figures (just not to km/s), then 9.9 m/s seemed the best choice.

I for one appreciate the nitpicking :)

FWIW looking at the Eyes simulation it seems the altitudes in the article chart are also wrong: they're missing a decimal zero, that is, they're actually tens of meters, not hundreds (21 and 16 m respectively).

That way, the velocity magnitude for the rover separation in km/h is consistent with what's shown in the animation's timeline, and is consistent with the few-second intervals between the three events (throttle down, rover lowering and TD). I strongly suspect the velocity figure at throttle down is actually in **MILES per hour** (~9.9 km/h) and wrongly refers to the initial rover separation velocity. Planned velocity of the sky crane at throttle down is specified to be the same as the TD velocity of 2.7 km/h <-> 1.7 mi/h <-> 0.75 m/s.

My take at the chart then:

Event  Time of Event (TD=0) Altitude / Velocity
Descent Stage Throttle Down  TD-19s  Altitude: 21 m Velocity: 6.0 mi/h
Rover Separation  TD-15s  Altitude: 16 m Velocity: 9.9 km/h
Touchdown / Flyaway  TD-0  Altitude: 0.00 km Velocity: 0.00 m/s
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mammutti on 02/19/2021 04:59 pm
Mars 2020 Perseverance – initial surface checkout briefing
What’s Next for Perseverance Mars Rover? Sol 1 Press Conference
(2021-02-19 18:00 UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz-Id5ZNopM
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/19/2021 05:01 pm
Presser started!!!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/19/2021 05:03 pm
You will see an image of the rover hanging underneath the descent stage. I just saw it awhile ago. It is pretty cool.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mammutti on 02/19/2021 05:06 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1362825545227018240

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/19/2021 05:08 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial. Looking toward the horizon in the first image there is what *might* be a plume from the SkyCrane crash. Other visible features include mini-dunes and some interesting textures in the distance. The nearby rocks are probably not vesicular - the low-res makes them look like that.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/19/2021 05:12 pm
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mammutti on 02/19/2021 05:20 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1362829136385896452

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/19/2021 05:20 pm
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/19/2021 05:26 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAPersevere/status/1362829136385896452
color hazcams?!?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 02/19/2021 05:39 pm
With respect to the picture of the rover hanging under the descent stage....is that prior to touchdown, if so, at what height..??..is it at touchdown ??
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: b0objunior on 02/19/2021 05:43 pm
With respect to the picture of the rover hanging under the descent stage....is that prior to touchdown, if so, at what height..??..is it at touchdown ??
2 meters from the surface.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: TRS717 on 02/19/2021 05:43 pm
With respect to the picture of the rover hanging under the descent stage....is that prior to touchdown, if so, at what height..??..is it at touchdown ??
Approx. 2 meters per answer at the presser. JPL still working to establish exact time at which photo was taken, which will serve to establish altitude.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/19/2021 05:51 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1362831462999949313

Quote
More high-res images and potentially video from the rover’s landing should be ready by Monday, project officials say.

twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1362832286429958146

Quote
NASa’s Pauline Hwang, asked how many images they’ve received, said it’s “more than I can count” at least in thumbnails. No exact number, though.

The raw images repository still only has the initial three hazcam images.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1362832883359096833

Quote
Adam Steltzner, Perseverance chief engineer, says they hope to know this weekend if a microphone recorded any data during the descent.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Slarty1080 on 02/19/2021 06:01 pm
Congrats to the whole team and everyone involved.

What activities can we expect to happen over the next few days and weeks and when? video, stills, movement, experiments (in summary)?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/19/2021 06:11 pm
Looks like there were indeed holes in those rocks!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: whitelancer64 on 02/19/2021 06:13 pm
Congrats to the whole team and everyone involved.

What activities can we expect to happen over the next few days and weeks and when? video, stills, movement, experiments (in summary)?

The next few days are all equipment checkouts while they transmit all of the EDL data back to Earth. And then they need to send new software to the Rover to change it from transit/landing mode to surface operations mode. After that, they will make sure all of the systems on the Rover are functioning normally, and about 8 days from now they will do a short test drive - just roll the rover forwards and backwards to make sure all the wheels are functioning.

Somewhere in there they will do a full panorama of the landing site, decide on the first things they want to go look at, and in a few weeks they will look for a good spot to set down the helicopter, and it will take a few weeks after that before they actually set it down and have it do its first flight.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/19/2021 06:22 pm

color hazcams?!?

They're not MER spares like in Curiosity - these are new ones :)

Looks like there were indeed holes in those rocks!

First thing that strikes the eye indeed! They mentioned they can be sedimentary or volcanic (or I'm guessing biological, with a tiny probability, but they didn't mention it in the presser): either way it's a bounty because they expect sedimentary rocks in the area that will tell them right away if the Jezero delta is mostly volcanic or fluid-formed, and are sure some are around from orbital imagery - but should they be volcanic they could sample them and date them very precisely on Earth in order to firmly establish Martian geologic history.

EDIT: Just reading online they can also be weathered features, and actually Viking 2 saw something similar. That might be the least exciting option.

Congrats to the whole team and everyone involved.

What activities can we expect to happen over the next few days and weeks and when? video, stills, movement, experiments (in summary)?

So far they've released the HGA and are testing its direct comms with Earth right now. Also released pyros in the robotic arm's experiment package and mast. Low gain working well in the meantime.
Processing many images that should be available in the raw repository within the weekend.
Expect most EDL images, some video and (hopefully) sounds available NLT Monday.
Will be taking panoramas soon after deploying the mast on Sol 3 (IIRC).
Earliest for first drive: sol 8-9 (and that can be a short "bump" just to try the roving systems out).
Earliest for Ingenuity flight: sol ~60, although that's based on availability of "helipads" to take off/land on, which can be far away - but based on preliminary assessments, it looks like they could find some such areas quite readily.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/19/2021 06:52 pm
I felt we were entitled to having the geologic map of Jezero Katie Stack Morgan had behind her back for reference, so I'm uploading it here for future reference  ;)  along with a quicklook screenshot.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lee Jay on 02/19/2021 07:31 pm
https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/jpl/hirise-captured-perseverance-during-descent-to-mars

HiRISE Captured Perseverance During Descent to Mars
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ChrisC on 02/19/2021 07:50 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial.

That partial image appears to be a problem with transferring to the raw-images website ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ ).  In the live coverage yesterday you can see three complete images displayed on the screens.

More significantly, so far this mission is NOT following the Squyres (and Lakdawalla) method of automatically releasing all images as soon as they are downlinked, via an automated pipeline.  In recent years, it seems that small missions (ala MER) are willing to do this, but larger missions (ala Cassini) are more conservative about it, and we have to wait for them to "process" the images.  We can hope that eventually they'll get the mindset and pipeline in place to release automatically.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lijazos on 02/19/2021 08:07 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial.

That partial image appears to be a problem with transferring to the raw-images website ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ ).  In the live coverage yesterday you can see three complete images displayed on the screens.

More significantly, so far this mission is NOT following the Squyres (and Lakdawalla) method of automatically releasing all images as soon as they are downlinked, via an automated pipeline.  In recent years, it seems that small missions (ala MER) are willing to do this, but larger missions (ala Cassini) are more conservative about it, and we have to wait for them to "process" the images.  We can hope that eventually they'll get the mindset and pipeline in place to release automatically.

Did the Curiosity project use the auto-publish method as soon as it downlinked all Sol 0 images, or were they processed initially during the first few days too?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/19/2021 08:54 pm
https://twitter.com/drphiltill/status/1362842717336829961

Quote
Annotated with some of the features of blowing dust from the SkyCrane thrusters.

twitter.com/drphiltill/status/1362847425816367107

Quote
You’ll recall that the prior SkyCrane landing dug small craters in the soil where the thruster plumes impinged on the surface. See the Curiosity rover tracks straddling the plume symmetry plane between them? (Picture from Vizcaino & Mehta, 2015) ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/…

https://twitter.com/drphiltill/status/1362847765462716421

Quote
3/ And those small craters blew regolith back at the rover, depositing small gravel on Curiosity’s instrument deck.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/19/2021 09:09 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial.

That partial image appears to be a problem with transferring to the raw-images website ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ ).  In the live coverage yesterday you can see three complete images displayed on the screens.

More significantly, so far this mission is NOT following the Squyres (and Lakdawalla) method of automatically releasing all images as soon as they are downlinked, via an automated pipeline.  In recent years, it seems that small missions (ala MER) are willing to do this, but larger missions (ala Cassini) are more conservative about it, and we have to wait for them to "process" the images.  We can hope that eventually they'll get the mindset and pipeline in place to release automatically.

I can only say that for Cassini, the official NASA policy that was adopted and ENFORCED was that all the raw images starting with Saturn orbit insertion and afterwards were posted to the raw site basically when they were downlinked from the spacecraft, a policy taken from the praised MER model and so Steve Squyres and his policy certainly had a lot to do with this happening. Emily Lakdawalla, while being a great outreach proponent, never really was in a position to make that kind of a decision, she was at the mercy of the project decision as much as everyone else was.

I should also point out that this decision for Cassini was done AGAINST the wishes of some of the Cassini imaging team members as I understand it. I don't have specific names, but I do know that there was resistance against this move for fear of scooping the team for discoveries. That fear came closest to being reality when the first backlit Enceladus images were taken - I think in late 2005 - which showed obvious plumes emanating from the south pole. If I recall correctly (I might not be, but I'm fairly sure I am), it went so far as to a certain member of the ISS team saying to the public on a certain forum that what we were seeing was an imaging/scattered light artifact. It never passed the smell test for us as it was beyond obvious that it wasn't an artifact, but it was interesting to see the "official" (?) response.

And no, I'm not naming any names or forums. Just a statement that principal scientists can feel threatened - and probably not without cause. For Percy, I still think the reason they're not releasing stuff like the EDL movies in thumbnail form is they want to get the biggest "wow" factor in press conferences as opposed to the wind being blown out of them at the pressers. I can understand that, even though I'm as impatient as everyone else.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: leovinus on 02/19/2021 10:16 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial.

That partial image appears to be a problem with transferring to the raw-images website ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ ).  In the live coverage yesterday you can see three complete images displayed on the screens.

More significantly, so far this mission is NOT following the Squyres (and Lakdawalla) method of automatically releasing all images as soon as they are downlinked, via an automated pipeline.  In recent years, it seems that small missions (ala MER) are willing to do this, but larger missions (ala Cassini) are more conservative about it, and we have to wait for them to "process" the images.  We can hope that eventually they'll get the mindset and pipeline in place to release automatically.

I can only say that for Cassini, the official NASA policy that was adopted and ENFORCED was that all the raw images starting with Saturn orbit insertion and afterwards were posted to the raw site basically when they were downlinked from the spacecraft, a policy taken from the praised MER model and so Steve Squyres and his policy certainly had a lot to do with this happening. Emily Lakdawalla, while being a great outreach proponent, never really was in a position to make that kind of a decision, she was at the mercy of the project decision as much as everyone else was.

I should also point out that this decision for Cassini was done AGAINST the wishes of some of the Cassini imaging team members as I understand it. I don't have specific names, but I do know that there was resistance against this move for fear of scooping the team for discoveries. That fear came closest to being reality when the first backlit Enceladus images were taken - I think in late 2005 - which showed obvious plumes emanating from the south pole. If I recall correctly (I might not be, but I'm fairly sure I am), it went so far as to a certain member of the ISS team saying to the public on a certain forum that what we were seeing was an imaging/scattered light artifact. It never passed the smell test for us as it was beyond obvious that it wasn't an artifact, but it was interesting to see the "official" (?) response.

And no, I'm not naming any names or forums. Just a statement that principal scientists can feel threatened - and probably not without cause. For Percy, I still think the reason they're not releasing stuff like the EDL movies in thumbnail form is they want to get the biggest "wow" factor in press conferences as opposed to the wind being blown out of them at the pressers. I can understand that, even though I'm as impatient as everyone else.

While I understand the enthusiasm of forum members and informed outsiders, I have no problem with a delay of 1 or 2 business days before images and measurements show up on the public side. Just please split it in "raw" data and "processed" to avoid confusion of what is real. Unlike the general public, many project members have staked a significant part of their life and career on such a mission and deserve a moment for good analysis and reflection.

May I also point out that it would be nice if the image and data measurement streams from other probes and countries were following similar publishing guidelines and standards? 谢谢 and Спасибо
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/19/2021 11:34 pm
Right... these good folks just lived through the most exciting day of their lives and now the pressure is on to check everything and get the mission under way, a very complicated process.  They deserve a few breaks while it all starts up.  You'll get your images, don't worry.  I love what the MER model for releasing images has given us but it's a gift, not an entitlement.  And yes, I know your taxes may have paid for this (mine did not), but be patient.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/19/2021 11:39 pm
As someone who does image based science for a living (microscopy), I wouldn't dream of releasing my images as soon as I made them. Nobody in my field would do this. I've always considered the fact some missions do this insane. Yes, some pretty pictures for the public, sure. But all the data? That belongs to the scientists, at least to start with. And no, the fact that it's publicly funded makes no difference at all, I'm publicly funded too.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lijazos on 02/19/2021 11:58 pm
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Steve G on 02/20/2021 12:02 am
All you out there whining about having to wait for the new images . . . STOP IT!

In my day watching Viking, Pioneer 10 & 11, and Voyager, there was no internet. If you were really lucky, PBS might carry some of it live. Other than that, you wait until 6:00 PM and watch ABC News, NBC at 6:30, and CBS with Walter Cronkite at 7:00. Being a Canadian, I then watched the CBC news at 10:00 and CTV news at 11:00, all hoping that I might get a variety of three second long images to feast on.

Then the next day, lousy black and white newsprint-quality image or two.

Then you had to wait for the news magazines. They covered Sunday to Saturday morning. If the event falls within those days, then you go to the newsstands on Tuesday and pay your 50 cents for Time, Newsweek, and US & World report. If it happened on a Saturday or Sunday, you have to wait an extra week.

Then you have to wait on average six weeks to two months for Sky & Telescope to have their much more detailed coverage. And if you were unfortunate like me who bought a three year subscription to Star & Sky Magazine that lasted less than a year, you got nothing.

After this, there might be an article in Scientific American about two to three months after. Then National Geographic generally had coverage no earlier than five months. Within 12 months, you might be able to find a book at your local library, and super lucky if they were found at the local book store.

So if the scientists want to hold on to the early imagery to achieve maximum effect, God bless them. They earned it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/20/2021 01:02 am
Today's Mars traffic report (the last for a while) shows the outer part of Martian space relatively emptied out, but the inner zone is still busy.

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1362945371190755330
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Rondaz on 02/20/2021 01:04 am
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/1362945456377114626
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/20/2021 01:47 am
All you out there whining about having to wait for the new images . . . STOP IT!
...

So if the scientists want to hold on to the early imagery to achieve maximum effect, God bless them. They earned it.

While I do agree with the sentiment, there is also the small fact that it is TAXPAYERS that are funding this project.

Yes, scientists have waited years to get into the data that comes in and to make discoveries, but they know the situation going in and are also paid by taxpayers for the privilege of working on the project.

So my view is to give the audience enough to salivate over (maybe lower quality or screened images), but also having the ability to retain certain images for a set period of time (maybe a certain number of pictures, up to a maximum). Yes it's muddy, but it helps to balance the needs of the many versus the needs of the few (or the one).

Can't wait to see that descent video!

back to our regularly schedules program...

PS: (of course I want to be blown away as most of you do, and feel privileged to have to opportunity to see the accomplishments of other nations, while our own pitiful nation, IE: Canada, doesn't have as big a space budget, and can't even manufacture its own COVID-19 vaccine).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lee Jay on 02/20/2021 03:17 am
I've withheld taxpayer-funded data for long periods before. There are many reasons you might do that but the most common one for me is to validate that it has been properly collected, calibrated and processed. I'd much rather release correct data late than wrong data early.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/20/2021 05:02 am

While I do agree with the sentiment, there is also the small fact that it is TAXPAYERS that are funding this project.

Yes, scientists have waited years to get into the data that comes in and to make discoveries, but they know the situation going in and are also paid by taxpayers for the privilege of working on the project.

So my view is to give the audience enough to salivate over (maybe lower quality or screened images), but also having the ability to retain certain images for a set period of time (maybe a certain number of pictures, up to a maximum). Yes it's muddy, but it helps to balance the needs of the many versus the needs of the few (or the one).

Can't wait to see that descent video!

back to our regularly schedules program...

PS: (of course I want to be blown away as most of you do, and feel privileged to have to opportunity to see the accomplishments of other nations, while our own pitiful nation, IE: Canada, doesn't have as big a space budget, and can't even manufacture its own COVID-19 vaccine).

Being a taxpayer does not mean that the public has a right to see the raw data immediately.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/20/2021 06:42 am
As someone who does image based science for a living (microscopy), I wouldn't dream of releasing my images as soon as I made them. Nobody in my field would do this. I've always considered the fact some missions do this insane. Yes, some pretty pictures for the public, sure. But all the data? That belongs to the scientists, at least to start with. And no, the fact that it's publicly funded makes no difference at all, I'm publicly funded too.

Yes people clamouring for images isn’t very edifying but those asking for a delay I hope aren’t going to support the policy of certain space agencies I can think of where we don’t see anything for ages, and when we do it’s not a lot. That said there are occasions where stuff is released but because it’s not on English language sites people don’t pick it up.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/20/2021 09:10 am
So, FYI there are also insiders, professionals and semi-professionals (E. Lakdawalla is perhaps the most articulate out there) complaining about not just the data release policy, but the fact that they're not releasing clearly what the actual release policy is. Those people are hardly wrongfully/unreasonably entitled - and frankly this whole "stop whining" discourse is getting jaded, if it ever was different. See, as a small example:

https://mobile.twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1363017313239269379
https://mobile.twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1362928700535185409
https://mobile.twitter.com/nivnac/status/1363003502981644291

I'm (not so) old enough to remember when almost direct access (enabled by the Internet and digital media) was a new wonder that NASA trailblazed as a major proponent of public participation and engagement (within reason, nobody's asking for actual calibration, microscopic or spectroscopic data to be shot out publicly before scientific analysis has taken place). Indeed, myself (working in the space science sector) and even some Mars2020 mission members have publicly declared to have become professionally interested in space thanks to those initiatives. This very site was founded on the troves of STS "releasable-but-not-overly-public" documentation, the MERs had an instantaneous release policy starting in sol 1, etc... so it's certainly not unprecedented. The fact that in the last 15-20 years we have to bend our knee every time entities to which many aspects of space exploitation have been handed over in a silver tray through privatization initiatives release some carefully curated data IS a new paradigm and IMO nothing to rever.

Having gotten that rant out of my chest, some actual news:

Ingenuity has phoned home and is nominal. Big check mission controllers were a bit nervous about.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/20/2021 09:40 am
Here’s the article regarding Ingenuity phoning home.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-mars-helicopter-reports-in
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mader Levap on 02/20/2021 10:03 am
Concering availability of data: at least hazcam photos should be uploaded ASAP. They have navigational, not scientific value, so no excuse here.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/20/2021 10:09 am
So, FYI there are also insiders, professionals and semi-professionals (E. Lakdawalla is perhaps the most articulate out there) complaining about not just the data release policy, but the fact that they're not releasing clearly what the actual release policy is. Those people are hardly wrongfully/unreasonably entitled - and frankly this whole "stop whining" discourse is getting jaded, if it ever was different. See, as a small example:

<snip>

I'm (not so) old enough to remember when almost direct access (enabled by the Internet and digital media) was a new wonder that NASA trailblazed as a major proponent of public participation and engagement (within reason, nobody's asking for actual calibration, microscopic or spectroscopic data to be shot out publicly before scientific analysis has taken place). Indeed, myself (working in the space science sector) and even some Mars2020 mission members have publicly declared to have become professionally interested in space thanks to those initiatives. This very site was founded on the troves of STS "releasable-but-not-overly-public" documentation, the MERs had an instantaneous release policy starting in sol 1, etc... so it's certainly not unprecedented. The fact that in the last 15-20 years we have to bend our knee every time entities to which many aspects of space exploitation have been handed over in a silver tray through privatization initiatives release some carefully curated data IS a new paradigm and IMO nothing to rever.

Having gotten that rant out of my chest, some actual news:

Ingenuity has phoned home and is nominal. Big check mission controllers were a bit nervous about.
Well, it is not 1997 anymore, when a small 2 person web team was struggling with the demand on their servers, and at the same time updating Sojourner's web page with new information and images twice a day:

From July 4, the day the craft landed on Mars, until July 8, NASA's Mars Pathfinder site , at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., recorded nearly 220 million hits, said the site's webmaster, David Dubov. He added that the response was far more than the agency had anticipated and that NASA was just trying to keep up with demand.

"This is beyond our wildest dreams," Dubov said, adding that the traffic at the official Mars Pathfinder site is "definitely a record for a NASA Web site. (...) We've been trying to update two times a day, but its a very small Web team and we're working as quickly and as best we can," said Dubov, who runs the site with one other person. "We're just swamped."

Nevertheless, Dubov said NASA liked the deluge. "We're happy that we can share this information and these wonderful pictures with the world," he said.


https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/071097mars.html (https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/071097mars.html)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sghill on 02/20/2021 11:34 am
That photo may wind up being the most valuable of the mission! Look at those pitted rocks!!

The rover is sitting at the base of a river delta at the foot of what we'd call an "alluvial fan" (see satellite images), and so I guess the rocks could be clay where trapped gasses blew out of the still wet chunks however long ago.

But damn, they sure look like common old dead coral on a beach (bottom photo)!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 02/20/2021 11:57 am
Those circular pits on the left side of the first photo almost look like fossils.
If we can find something like that on Mars that would be significant.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 02/20/2021 02:24 pm
That photo may wind up being the most valuable of the mission! Look at those pitted rocks!!

The rover is sitting at the base of a river delta at the foot of what we'd call an "alluvial fan", so I guess the rocks could be clay where trapped gasses blew out of the still wet chunks however long ago.

But damn, they sure look like common old dead coral on a beach...

Perseverence didn't land on the fan though, it landed on a volcanic unit beneath. The pitting is more likely going to be eroded vesicles in volcanic rock.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Stan-1967 on 02/20/2021 03:01 pm
Perseverence didn't land on the fan though, it landed on a volcanic unit beneath. The pitting is more likely going to be eroded vesicles in volcanic rock.

The USGS interpretation of the " Jezero floor unit", (Njf)  leaves plenty of room for either volcanic or other interpretations.  Let the scientists do their thing. 

From the USGS Scientific investigations map 3464 map sheet: ( my boldface additions)

"Volcanic ash or eolian airfall deposit that drapes underlying topography.
Correlates with unit Nnp2 based on common stratigraphic position and shared
textural and morphologic characteristics. Emplaced during the Late Noachian
before deposition of unit NHjf1. May have been modified by subsequent
lacustrine activity during deposition of units NHjf1 and NHjf2.
Dark, smooth
surface texture near unit NHjf2 is due to a dark mantle deposit or erosional lag
derived from erosion of unit NHjf2. Previously interpreted by Schon and others
(2012) and Goudge and others (2015) as an extrusive volcanic flow"

I had to look up the definition of Lacustrine:  ::)
la·cus·trine
/ləˈkəstrən/
Learn to pronounce
adjectiveTECHNICAL•LITERARY
relating to or associated with lakes.
"fluvial and lacustrine deposits"
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 02/20/2021 03:24 pm
That photo may wind up being the most valuable of the mission! Look at those pitted rocks!!

The rover is sitting at the base of a river delta at the foot of what we'd call an "alluvial fan" (see satellite images), and so I guess the rocks could be clay where trapped gasses blew out of the still wet chunks however long ago.

But damn, they sure look like common old dead coral on a beach (bottom photo)!

Holy crap.   Please don't post an Earth photo in this stream without labeling it very prominently.

I about had a heart attack "discovering" the fossils
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 02/20/2021 04:38 pm
All you out there whining about having to wait for the new images . . . STOP IT!

In my day watching Viking, Pioneer 10 & 11, and Voyager, there was no internet. If you were really lucky, PBS might carry some of it live. Other than that, you wait until 6:00 PM and watch ABC News, NBC at 6:30, and CBS with Walter Cronkite at 7:00. Being a Canadian, I then watched the CBC news at 10:00 and CTV news at 11:00, all hoping that I might get a variety of three second long images to feast on.

Then the next day, lousy black and white newsprint-quality image or two.

Then you had to wait for the news magazines. They covered Sunday to Saturday morning. If the event falls within those days, then you go to the newsstands on Tuesday and pay your 50 cents for Time, Newsweek, and US & World report. If it happened on a Saturday or Sunday, you have to wait an extra week.

Then you have to wait on average six weeks to two months for Sky & Telescope to have their much more detailed coverage. And if you were unfortunate like me who bought a three year subscription to Star & Sky Magazine that lasted less than a year, you got nothing.

After this, there might be an article in Scientific American about two to three months after. Then National Geographic generally had coverage no earlier than five months. Within 12 months, you might be able to find a book at your local library, and super lucky if they were found at the local book store.

So if the scientists want to hold on to the early imagery to achieve maximum effect, God bless them. They earned it.

Nice walk down memory lane.   I too experienced this in the 70s, 80s and 90s

I've also experienced the prompt release of raw images via the web in the 21st century.    I'm grateful that this capability is so ubiquitous and cheap both at the mission and end user point.     This is the 21st century, the public funds these missions, they have experienced high quality, near real time coverage on other missions.    This is the standard NOW.    This and future missions must embrace this as one of their requirements, as it is in fact part of the mission selection process and funding is specifically set aside in the mission budget for public outreach.

Clearly, Percy already has a pipeline setup for raw images.   I'm sure it's just a glitch.

Great work JPL.   Keep it up, we are all rooting for you and watching excitedly.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/20/2021 08:40 pm
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Welcome to Marshollywood!!!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/20/2021 08:53 pm
A nice thread on where too much 'proprietariness' can take you:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeseibert/status/1363133565228130305

While we wait (probably until Monday afternoon) people are already doing wonders with the two available hazcam images:

https://mobile.twitter.com/db_prods/status/1363065322278965250

Another unfortunate, unnecessary drawback of this relative "drought" is that people have started sharing a totally inaccurate video composite with old Curiosity panoramas and Insight "sounds"... and you might also have noticed a certain Twitter trending topic, countered by informed legitimate pushback which has less ammo than it should have had.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/20/2021 08:53 pm
https://youtu.be/zvvzvXb2Awc
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/20/2021 09:01 pm
[

.     This is the 21st century, the public funds these missions, they have experienced high quality, near real time coverage on other missions.    This is the standard NOW.   

yes... tell that to ESA about Rosetta!! :-(
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Don2 on 02/20/2021 10:08 pm
Rosetta did quite well, but it would have been an even bigger success of ESA if it wasn't for a really awful German PI who sat on all the best pictures for about a year. If you're frustrated by the constipation in Percy's image pipeline, just wait for Exomars! We'll be lucky to get one picture a month out of those guys. ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Steve G on 02/21/2021 12:42 am
I imagine during the Q&A during Monday's Press Conference there will be some tough questions asked about the raw image releases. Hopefully, before the Q&A, they'll have clarified the release policy. If not, batten down the hatches.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/21/2021 05:07 am
Rosetta did quite well, but it would have been an even bigger success of ESA if it wasn't for a really awful German PI who sat on all the best pictures for about a year. If you're frustrated by the constipation in Percy's image pipeline, just wait for Exomars! We'll be lucky to get one picture a month out of those guys. ;D

I would determine whether or not a PI was awful by the quality of the science that was done by their team.   
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/21/2021 07:48 am
Rosetta did quite well, but it would have been an even bigger success of ESA if it wasn't for a really awful German PI who sat on all the best pictures for about a year. If you're frustrated by the constipation in Percy's image pipeline, just wait for Exomars! We'll be lucky to get one picture a month out of those guys. ;D

I would determine whether or not a PI was awful by the quality of the science that was done by their team.
we are not talking about ESA science results (amazing) but about  ESA images release policy (embarassing).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/21/2021 09:02 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/21/2021 09:07 am
Rosetta did quite well, but it would have been an even bigger success of ESA if it wasn't for a really awful German PI who sat on all the best pictures for about a year. If you're frustrated by the constipation in Percy's image pipeline, just wait for Exomars! We'll be lucky to get one picture a month out of those guys. ;D

I would determine whether or not a PI was awful by the quality of the science that was done by their team.
we are not talking about ESA science results (amazing) but about  ESA images release policy (embarassing).

I am far more interested in their science than in release of pretty pictures.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 09:12 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/21/2021 09:13 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 09:19 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/21/2021 09:23 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 09:31 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.

But it actually isn't the exception.    They have been doing it daily for 17 years.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/21/2021 09:42 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.

But it actually isn't the exception.    They have been doing it daily for 17 years.
Strangely enough it sounds like NASA have a better understanding of these matters than some on this thread.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/21/2021 09:43 am
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

This kind of attitude is not to be applauded at all. In fact in some areas it could be argued to be positively counterproductive. For example it’s been imperative to be open as possible with the science of the current vaccination program in order to reassure people and maximise uptake.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spiff on 02/21/2021 10:13 am
I remember a long time ago, that this was an update thread.
Mods. Please....
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/21/2021 10:42 am
ok can we stop chitchat and go back to science and updates??
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 12:21 pm
OK, some leaky information

https://twitter.com/NASAWatch/status/1363293299562475525

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Xentry on 02/21/2021 12:24 pm
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Welcome to Marshollywood!!!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Yeah and when they want to send pictures to Earth through the Rover comms they have to break down each frame into 16 tiles made of 1280x960 pixels each, because the Rover camera data interface can't handle larger images...
This camera system is truly incredible, but let's hope next time the interface can be updated so we can have 100Mpixel image streams - and sent through an optical Earth link too!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/21/2021 12:59 pm
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.

But it actually isn't the exception.    They have been doing it daily for 17 years.

No they haven't. A lot of people on this thread really don't understand what the data release policy has been.

Mods really need to delete all this self-righteous opinionating and turn this back into an update thread.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: sghill on 02/21/2021 01:05 pm
Quote from: Blackstar

Mods really need to delete all this self-righteous opinionating and turn this back into an update thread.

Or a discussion thread and separate update thread...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 02/21/2021 02:10 pm
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.
WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.
I'm also a PI in neuroscience.  WelshDragon is correct this how it often works, but it is still very wrong, and a number of us are trying to change that.   As a scientist, a large part of your audience is other scientists, and they don't want pretty pictures, they want data.  Very often this is in the critical path of scientific progress, which should be the end goal of science, as opposed to ownership of results.  Many PIs claim these two are in conflict (as in the apocryphal grad-student-gets-scooped-on-thesis story), but it's not remotely true in practice, as there is no one better placed to analyze data than the person who collected it.  We have seen this play out in real time with the analysis of COVID and the 2019-nCoV virus.  Progress was extraordinarily fast as everyone agreed to release whatever they know as soon as they know it.

This attitude is slowly changing. I was the PI (or co-PI, no one does these big efforts by themselves) on a big project, the equivalent of a "mission".   We were developing a "connectome", or a list of all the neurons in the brain (fruit fly in this case) and the chemical synapses between them.   We released the data, including a publically accessible web interface (https://neuprint.janelia.org/) as soon as it was in good enough shape to help others with their research.  In particular we did not wait until we completed our initial analysis, nor until the data was in final form (we released version 1.0, the 'good enough' version.  Since then we've released versions 1.1 and 1.2).  At least in this case this seems to have worked as desired - other scientists logged on immediately and started to use the data in their research (we can see this was immediate, both from logs of web access, and because we are now getting papers to review that are based on this data).  We published our initial analysis about 8 months later (https://elifesciences.org/articles/57443), and no one got scooped. No one, to our knowledge, has published bad results based on the flaws of the 1.0 version that were corrected later.  We believe this policy helped advance the field considerably, particularly since this is the only source (for the next few years anyway) of this type of data.

Note:  This is my own opinion, and not that of HHMI where I work, and certainly not that of all scientists in the field.  There are plenty of PIs who go by the old standard of "it's my data and I'll release it when I feel like it".   But there are also more and more scientists that agree that getting data out quickly is important for scientific progress, particularly where there is no alternate source for the data in question.   NASA, I believe, should be a leader and not a laggard in this area.




Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/21/2021 02:20 pm
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.
WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.
I'm also a PI in neuroscience.  WelshDragon is correct this how it often works, but it is still very wrong, and a number of us are trying to change that.   As a scientist, a large part of your audience is other scientists, and they don't want pretty pictures, they want data.  Very often this is in the critical path of scientific progress, which should be the end goal of science, as opposed to ownership of results.  Many PIs claim these two are in conflict (as in the apocryphal grad-student-gets-scooped-on-thesis story), but it's not remotely true in practice, as there is no one better placed to analyze data than the person who collected it.  We have seen this play out in real time with the analysis of COVID and the 2019-nCoV virus.  Progress was extraordinarily fast as everyone agreed to release whatever they know as soon as they know it.

This attitude is slowly changing. I was the PI (or co-PI, no one does these big efforts by themselves) on a big project, the equivalent of a "mission".   We were developing a "connectome", or a list of all the neurons in the brain (fruit fly in this case) and the chemical synapses between them.   We released the data, including a publically accessible web interface (https://neuprint.janelia.org/) as soon as it was in good enough shape to help others with their research.  In particular we did not wait until we completed our initial analysis, nor until the data was in final form (we released version 1.0, the 'good enough' version.  Since then we've released versions 1.1 and 1.2).  At least in this case this seems to have worked as desired - other scientists logged on immediately and started to use the data in their research (we can see this was immediate, both from logs of web access, and because we are now getting papers to review that are based on this data).  We published our initial analysis about 8 months later (https://elifesciences.org/articles/57443), and no one got scooped. No one, to our knowledge, has published bad results based on the flaws of the 1.0 version that were corrected later.  We believe this policy helped advance the field considerably, particularly since this is the only source (for the next few years anyway) of this type of data.

Note:  This is my own opinion, and not that of HHMI where I work, and certainly not that of all scientists in the field.  There are plenty of PIs who go by the old standard of "it's my data and I'll release it when I feel like it".   But there are also more and more scientists that agree that getting data out quickly is important for scientific progress, particularly where there is no alternate source for the data in question.   NASA, I believe, should be a leader and not a laggard in this area.
The connectome project (I don't use it myself, but good work!) is very much a resource project. There it makes total sense. And as uou yourself said, you released it as soon as it was in good enough shape. The equivalent in your project would have been to release every individual scan as soon as it was made. That's what people are demanding.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 02:40 pm
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

Entitled?  Perhaps.  But when you've given space enthusiasts something for the past 17 years and then change that, they might grumble lol

And from your edited post it seems like you don't want the public to see anything at all.
They can have a few pretty pictures. That's all they want anyway. There is no need at all to release everything.

WOW... I hope you're not a Mission PI lol
No, I am a PI in neuroscience. This is how every field apart from some NASA missions works. Immediate release of all data is very much the exception, not the rule.

But it actually isn't the exception.    They have been doing it daily for 17 years.

No they haven't. A lot of people on this thread really don't understand what the data release policy has been.

Mods really need to delete all this self-righteous opinionating and turn this back into an update thread.

Yes, they have been releasing RAW images daily for 17 years, sometimes within an hour of that image having been acquired on the surface of Mars.. Yes, AQUIRED, not received here on Earth.

And nobody "demanded" the release of RAW image data, this was the policy adopted with the MER team back in 2004 which ALL subsequent landers have followed. Spirit, Opportunity, Phoenix, Curiosity, and inSIGHT

People are also confusing RAW images, with RAW data, the images published online are compressed converted to jpg and often lightly processed to make viewing easier, these would never be used for scientific interpretation, RAW calibrated data is available online in the PDS many months later.

And Sorry to say, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/21/2021 03:21 pm
But it actually isn't the exception.    They have been doing it daily for 17 years.

No they haven't. A lot of people on this thread really don't understand what the data release policy has been.

Mods really need to delete all this self-righteous opinionating and turn this back into an update thread.

Well... I, for one, welcome NASA reverting back to the practices of ESA and for example the Chinese when it comes to releasing raw, uncalibrated images to the web.

For crying out loud, I can live without seeing the EDL camera thumbnails or whatever they managed to download until now - they can save that thunder for the presser - but even the hazcam full res, color images which they clearly showed on the presser are still not available on the raw image site. There's a total of 2 thumbnail greyscale hazcam images and a partial full resolution greyscale hazcam image on the raw site, almost 3 days after the landing. Hell, by this time even that partial full res greyscale hazcam *should* have come down on the ground completely and been finalized.

Now, my memory may be fading, but I don't remember that sort of thing happening on MSL.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bogeyman on 02/21/2021 03:53 pm
Sigh... Or maybe they found something alien-ish and they are afraid to show because they know the news is gonna turn our world upside down...
We‘ll know tomorrow.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/21/2021 03:55 pm
Sigh... Or maybe they found something alien-ish and they are afraid to show because they know the news is gonna turn our world upside down...

Sure they did...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/21/2021 04:39 pm
Nasa are now actively teasing video for Monday.

(https://i.imgur.com/7sxZWPU.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 02/21/2021 05:23 pm
Sigh... Or maybe they found something alien-ish and they are afraid to show because they know the news is gonna turn our world upside down...

Sure they did...
I'm predicting that they spotted the fossil of a sandworm a al Dune.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/21/2021 05:24 pm
Here are edited versions that I have enhanced of the HazCam images from yesterday - there were actually three, but one was a partial.

That partial image appears to be a problem with transferring to the raw-images website ( https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/ ).  In the live coverage yesterday you can see three complete images displayed on the screens.

More significantly, so far this mission is NOT following the Squyres (and Lakdawalla) method of automatically releasing all images as soon as they are downlinked, via an automated pipeline.  In recent years, it seems that small missions (ala MER) are willing to do this, but larger missions (ala Cassini) are more conservative about it, and we have to wait for them to "process" the images.  We can hope that eventually they'll get the mindset and pipeline in place to release automatically.

I can only say that for Cassini, the official NASA policy that was adopted and ENFORCED was that all the raw images starting with Saturn orbit insertion and afterwards were posted to the raw site basically when they were downlinked from the spacecraft, a policy taken from the praised MER model and so Steve Squyres and his policy certainly had a lot to do with this happening. Emily Lakdawalla, while being a great outreach proponent, never really was in a position to make that kind of a decision, she was at the mercy of the project decision as much as everyone else was.

Adding on to this train of thought and since we're currently in a sort of a vacuum as no new raw images have been posted for 3 days, I thought I'd bring up a 14-year-old thread on another forum regarding The Cassini Situation (TM).

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=3817

Long-time followers may well recognize some of the names in that thread. I figured some historical context is warranted here, given the discussion we're currently having.

Full disclosure: I myself had been working a lot with Cassini raw images and that all culminated in October 2013 when Cassini took the first great mosaic opportunity above the ring plane and it also came at a time when there was a U.S. government shutdown in place. My mosaic, which I posted to the very same forum as I have with many previous image products, ended up going very viral, unexpectedly, mostly thanks to Emily Lakdawalla and subsequently Phil Plait.

Again, that mosaic had no scientific discovery value so I technically scooped noone, but on the other hand the ISS team working to assemble the same mosaic probably felt the wind taken out of them. So, yes, I *can* sympathise with the imaging team in situations like this. I certainly never expected my mosaic to go viral, since none of my earlier products reached much further than that forum. I suppose in retrospect it was what one could call "a perfect storm".
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: schaban on 02/21/2021 05:25 pm
I think it is because for curiosity internet crowdsourcing beat team to some amazing compositions
So this time they want to publish them first
If that is indeed what’s happening, can’t really blame team for delay
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/21/2021 06:15 pm
I think it is because for curiosity internet crowdsourcing beat team to some amazing compositions

Amateurs have been processing raw Mars images often times before JPL woke up even during MER. So why didn't they enforce this "policy" with Phoenix or Curiosity or InSight, all of which came after MER? Why institute this "policy" now?

That logic literally does not pass the sniff test.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/21/2021 06:47 pm
A straightened and slightly edited version of the colour HazCam shot.

Your mileage may vary!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 02/21/2021 06:53 pm
PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IMAGES RELEASE.
OPEN YOUR OWN BLOG AND.POST THERE.
Feel free not to read it. It's relevant to the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/21/2021 07:07 pm
PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IMAGES RELEASE.
OPEN YOUR OWN BLOG AND.POST THERE.
Don’t post in caps.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/21/2021 07:10 pm
PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT IMAGES RELEASE.
OPEN YOUR OWN BLOG AND.POST THERE.
Feel free not to read it. It's relevant to the mission.

NASA prior to 18 Feb 2021: "We are the ultimate public engagement agency, all phases open, nothing to hide"
NASA after 18 Feb 2021: "How dare you feel the sense of entitlement that you should get access to raw images as soon as they're downloaded"

OK, I get that. But then, get off your high horse about being the premier space agency, setting data release standards you yourselves can't or won't keep.

I don't mind ESA-like standards as long as you're not pulling wool over our eyes claiming you're better than ESA. And then posts from people sitting on the pedestal claiming us, mere peasants, don't really understand data release policies is just wonderful. *thumbs up*
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/21/2021 07:16 pm
So we should get to the bottom of this. Not  ALL of NASA is like this. Someone made this decision, and therefore someone can change it back. Let’s not start making excuses for it and cementing in place a really bad decision. And let's not crucify NASA just yet. Sometimes that results in a circle-the-wagons response.

Mistakes are made. They can be fixed. Let’s fix this one.

(And those of you talking down everyone saying this is a problem, please be part of the solution instead of making excuses for the problem.)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: matthewkantar on 02/21/2021 07:36 pm
Impressive amounts of misplaced entitlement on show here. The teams behind these missions did all the work to get them funded, launched and operated properly. This means the should have first dibs on the data. Releasing everything just means the need to rush to publish so nobody can scoop them, which only increases the risk of bad science. It should be a requirement for their work to be in open access journals of course, as it is publicly funded, but that's a different question.

I think misplaced entitlement is believing oneself entitled to taxpayer's money without being subject to the taxpayer's wants and needs.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/21/2021 07:38 pm
"(And those of you talking down everyone saying this is a problem, please be part of the solution instead of making excuses for the problem.)"

Dear JPL,

please release a few more images so we can be spared more of this embarrassing discussion.

Yours respectfully,
Phil Stooke
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/21/2021 07:41 pm
"(And those of you talking down everyone saying this is a problem, please be part of the solution instead of making excuses for the problem.)"

Dear JPL,

please release a few more images so we can be spared more of this embarrassing discussion.

Yours respectfully,
Phil Stooke
What's embarrassing about it? It was freaking AMAZING that MER (etc) released the raw images the way they did. It really sucks that that precedent is being damaged, here. Yes, it's not really unusual among space agencies (let alone companies) or science generally to restrict access like that, but NASA set the bar extremely high (more than just about anyone), and we should maintain that high standard of awesome.

There's often a decay in awesomeness over time if we don't work to maintain it.


No, it's not at all the biggest problem in the world, but let's hold on to the good instead of letting everything fall to a low level of mediocrity.

How sweet would it be if this standard spread to Europe and even to some companies? The more restrictive NASA is, the more cover it provides other countries and companies to keep stuff from being open and available. That's ultimately bad for hobbyists.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/21/2021 07:52 pm
The issue has now made the online media.

https://wordpress.futurism.com/nasa-raw-images-perseverance
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Eosterwine on 02/21/2021 07:52 pm
The images are likely to start to flow some time after tomorrows press briefing.  And then, we will forget all about this lol

Trust me, this decision is 100% politics and PR.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ThereIWas3 on 02/21/2021 08:23 pm
Trust me, this decision is 100% politics and PR.

So probably made at NASA HQ and not at JPL?  Whoever did it has damaged the program.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FuryFB11 on 02/21/2021 10:27 pm
145 new raw images have been uploaded here

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: RotoSequence on 02/21/2021 10:46 pm
And just like that, the critics fell silent!  ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Doom2pro on 02/21/2021 11:09 pm
Even Scott Manley addressed this, NASA and JPL over hyped and under delivered... It's a thing, and they need to address it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/21/2021 11:45 pm
Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

edit: ImageMagick command line sequence to create composite colour image:

convert Mars_Perseverance_FRG_0002_0667129432_851ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_2I3J01.png Mars_Perseverance_FRG_0002_0667129432_851ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_2I3J01.png b.Mars_Perseverance_FRB_0002_0667129448_123ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_2I3J01.png -combine FR_sol2_1537.png
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/21/2021 11:51 pm
So ... the sterile discussion about the absence of photos for almost 3 days (what a nightmare ...) in a scientific program (and not a show) expected to last at least 2 years is finally over?

Can we talk again about the mission itself?

Tomorrow we will have the disclosure of images that are simply incredible and that, I believe, many do not even imagine how spectacular they can be.

After that, we have a soil rich in very interesting rocks around Perseverance, and an area apparently ideal for the release of Ingenuity.

One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/21/2021 11:55 pm
... and here are colour composites of the red, green and blue channels of the left and right front hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 03:27 am
Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

How do you know what colour channel each raw image is? The file names have a pattern but I don't know how to interpret it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/22/2021 04:12 am
Even Scott Manley addressed this, NASA and JPL over hyped and under delivered... It's a thing, and they need to address it.

An amazing mission, delivered on time, landed safely in a new area on Mars, just starting a scientific program that will probably cover many kilometres of traverse and last perhaps a decade or more, testing new technology that may revolutionise planetary exploration and lay foundations for crewed missions to come, and caching samples for eventual return to Earth.

It's neither over hyped nor under delivered. 
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/22/2021 04:20 am
Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

The rainbow is super cool! It's on both sides of the rover in both images, so is it a camera lens artifact? Wrong spot for a "sun dog", but visible from both cameras.

Have the lens caps been jettisoned yet?  if not this could be a side effect of their presence
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 04:41 am
Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

The rainbow is super cool! It's on both sides of the rover in both images, so is it a camera lens artifact? Wrong spot for a "sun dog", but visible from both cameras.

Have the lens caps been jettisoned yet?  if not this could be a side effect of their presence

I think they are as the time stamp given for the first images is a few hours before the time of the next set of images that seem to show a wider field of view.

EDIT: I nearly forgot to mention the time stamps given for each of the red, green and blue channel images are all slightly different by 6 to 16 seconds so I wonder if the camera is actually taking them at slightly different times. This could cause a rainbow image as the sun angle varies slightly between each image so that they don't quite line up.

Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

How do you know what colour channel each raw image is? The file names have a pattern but I don't know how to interpret it.

I think I figured out the file naming of the different colour channels:
Mars_Perseverance_FLB_0000_0666958242_147ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_2I3J01.png
The three letters FLB seem to show the camera location and the colour channel. In this case Front Left Blue. So there are FL[RGB] FR[RGB] RL[RGB] RR[RGB]

There are also some E channel images, e.g. FLE that are the zoomed in images of the wheels. The images have a weird moire but I think what is happening is that each square of 4 pixels encodes the RGB values in separate pixels, with the fourth pixel always being black/zero. I guess this allows them to send 1/4 of the full resolution picture quickly for analysis.

The first 4 digit number I think is the sol/day number, so far there are Sol 0 to 2.

The next large number I think is the time stamp but I have no idea how to interpret it.

The three digits in front of ECB also vary, but not sure what the mean.

The rest of the file name seems to stay the same except for the last number after the J. This seems to be 01, 02, 03 and might be multiple re-transmissions of the same image as they are all identical except for one case where there is a partial image from the right left camera.

Anyway I now managed to recreate the colour images from all 4 cameras for the three Sols uploaded so far.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: aviators99 on 02/22/2021 05:22 am

The next large number I think is the time stamp but I have no idea how to interpret it.


It appears to be the number of seconds since Jan 2, 2000 at approx. 6am?

EDIT: If I go back to the first image, it is seconds since Jan 1, 2000 at about 7am.  So, the gap appears to be shrinking.  But I don't know what "solar mean time" means, so maybe this makes sense?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 05:39 am
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Welcome to Marshollywood!!!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Yeah and when they want to send pictures to Earth through the Rover comms they have to break down each frame into 16 tiles made of 1280x960 pixels each, because the Rover camera data interface can't handle larger images...
This camera system is truly incredible, but let's hope next time the interface can be updated so we can have 100Mpixel image streams - and sent through an optical Earth link too!

After reading this article I realise more about the raw images.

So the full size images posted so far look to be downsampled images corresponding to mode 5, 6, and 7 from table 3 in the article. These are 25% reductions of the full image resolution to keep within the constraints of the MSL derived camera interface.

The "E" images of the wheel are actually tiles of a 1/16th area of the full resolution image without downsampling, this is mode 0. The moire pattern I noticed is actually a Bayer pattern and each group of four pixels has 1x R, 2x G, and 1x B pixel. I do not know what software I can use to convert the Bayer pattern into a standard colour image.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/22/2021 06:48 am
"I don't know what "solar mean time" means"

Time measured by the Sun so noon is (ideally) when the Sun passes south of the rover.  That is a different time at every longitude on Mars, so noon at Jezero is not noon at Gale.  But for each rover it gives you the time in a 24.5ish hour clock.  So 07:00 is soon after sunrise, 17:00 is approaching sunset.  The mean time part ties it the planet's rotation rather than actual sun observations to account for the planet's elliptical orbit and seasons.  So the Sun actually passes south at a slightly different time every day but drifts around the ideal 'south at noon' time.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/22/2021 07:16 am
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Welcome to Marshollywood!!!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Yeah and when they want to send pictures to Earth through the Rover comms they have to break down each frame into 16 tiles made of 1280x960 pixels each, because the Rover camera data interface can't handle larger images...
This camera system is truly incredible, but let's hope next time the interface can be updated so we can have 100Mpixel image streams - and sent through an optical Earth link too!

After reading this article I realise more about the raw images.

So the full size images posted so far look to be downsampled images corresponding to mode 5, 6, and 7 from table 3 in the article. These are 25% reductions of the full image resolution to keep within the constraints of the MSL derived camera interface.

The "E" images of the wheel are actually tiles of a 1/16th area of the full resolution image without downsampling, this is mode 0. The moire pattern I noticed is actually a Bayer pattern and each group of four pixels has 1x R, 2x G, and 1x B pixel. I do not know what software I can use to convert the Bayer pattern into a standard colour image.

An article by Emily Lakdawalla from 2012 provides some more details on the Bayer pattern and includes an example of a "demosaiced" image.
https://www.planetary.org/articles/08241439-mastcam-bayer (https://www.planetary.org/articles/08241439-mastcam-bayer)


In the linked thread user Ant103 provides this recipe:
(...) I'm actually using ImageJ with the "debayer" plugin, available here (scroll down). Then, in ImageJ set the image in 16bit mode. Then, go to "plugin>debayer" (you should have install it in the correct folder in order to have it in your plugin list). The best method is "R-G-R-G", set Demosaicing Algorithm to "Adaptive Smooth Hue" (I think it gives the best results). Checkbox "Display color image". Et voilà ! Save or do whatever you want with your debayered image

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7426&view=findpost&p=189837 (http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7426&view=findpost&p=189837)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 07:25 am

Mars_Perseverance_FLB_0000_0666958242_147ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_2I3J01.png

The next large number I think is the time stamp but I have no idea how to interpret it.


It should be spacecraft clock; you can see an example in the screenshot posted here (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38208.msg2193856#msg2193856), where value 666952930.781250  is  labeled as beginning of phase "MC_PC_READY_FOR_TOUCHDOWN".

To convert from spacecraft clock (SCLK) to UTC or other dates you can use this page (webgeocalc (https://wgc.jpl.nasa.gov:8443/webgeocalc/#TimeConversion)), which relies upon NAIF SCLK kernels:

https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/MARS2020/kernels/sclk/m2020.tsc
https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/MARS2020/kernels/sclk/M2020_168_SCLKSCET.00006.tsc

You must specify:
Kernels: manual selection --> MARS2020/kernels/sclk  --> most recent
Spacecraft id: -168
Time system: spacecraft clock
Time format: spacecraft clock string
Time: the string (e.g 0666958242)

Result is: 2021-02-18 22:12:12.483513 UTC



For quick calculation, you can see in https://naif.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/naif/MARS2020/kernels/sclk/M2020_168_SCLKSCET.00006.tsc that 0000000000.000 means 2000-001T11:58:55.816 , i.e. approximately 2001/01/01 12:00
But beware that the spacecraft  clock could reset to 0 at anytime for unpredictable reasons; that's why we have SPICE kernels which keep track of any change in spacecraft clock.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/22/2021 09:37 am
Here is a simple colour composite of the red, green, and blue channels of the left and right rear hazcam views from Sol2 at around 15:37 local mean solar time (no attempt to correct for colour balance).

The rainbow is super cool! It's on both sides of the rover in both images, so is it a camera lens artifact? Wrong spot for a "sun dog", but visible from both cameras.
Just guessing: the "light arc" might be due to some internal reflection of sunlight entering the optics of the hazcam from the side at a high angle of incident. Hazcam optics provides a "fisheye" wide field view, which results in strong geometric distortion (curved horizon) and quite possibly some illumination artefacts.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 10:08 am
Photogrammetry possibilities are strong for these hazcam images :)

https://twitter.com/coprolite9000/status/1363693879606865920
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/22/2021 10:20 am

<snip>

Anyway I now managed to recreate the colour images from all 4 cameras for the three Sols uploaded so far.

Based on nzguy's 3 colour images of Hazcam front right, here is an animated gif sorted by time of day (i.e. local mean solar time). Note that this is "out of order" in terms of Sol (shortest shadow is Sol 1, followed by the Sol 2 image, and the Sol 0 image).

Now I'm eagerly waiting for tonight's JPL/NASA press conference and the descent movie, which should be awesome!

edit: ImageMagick command line sequence to create animated gif:
convert -delay 50 Mars_Perseverance_FRx_0001.png Mars_Perseverance_FRx_0002.png Mars_Perseverance_FRx_0000.png FR_movie.gif
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 11:08 am
Not sure if this was posted before (and I apologize if it already was), or was already widely known, but this paper talks in deep detail about the engineering cameras, and wanted to share this extract about the EDLCAMs properties 'and' the number of images expected to be captured by them during their operational times.

Welcome to Marshollywood!!!

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Yeah and when they want to send pictures to Earth through the Rover comms they have to break down each frame into 16 tiles made of 1280x960 pixels each, because the Rover camera data interface can't handle larger images...
This camera system is truly incredible, but let's hope next time the interface can be updated so we can have 100Mpixel image streams - and sent through an optical Earth link too!

After reading this article I realise more about the raw images.

So the full size images posted so far look to be downsampled images corresponding to mode 5, 6, and 7 from table 3 in the article. These are 25% reductions of the full image resolution to keep within the constraints of the MSL derived camera interface.

The "E" images of the wheel are actually tiles of a 1/16th area of the full resolution image without downsampling, this is mode 0. The moire pattern I noticed is actually a Bayer pattern and each group of four pixels has 1x R, 2x G, and 1x B pixel. I do not know what software I can use to convert the Bayer pattern into a standard colour image.

An article by Emily Lakdawalla from 2012 provides some more details on the Bayer pattern and includes an example of a "demosaiced" image.
https://www.planetary.org/articles/08241439-mastcam-bayer (https://www.planetary.org/articles/08241439-mastcam-bayer)


In the linked thread user Ant103 provides this recipe:
(...) I'm actually using ImageJ with the "debayer" plugin, available here (scroll down). Then, in ImageJ set the image in 16bit mode. Then, go to "plugin>debayer" (you should have install it in the correct folder in order to have it in your plugin list). The best method is "R-G-R-G", set Demosaicing Algorithm to "Adaptive Smooth Hue" (I think it gives the best results). Checkbox "Display color image". Et voilà ! Save or do whatever you want with your debayered image

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7426&view=findpost&p=189837 (http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7426&view=findpost&p=189837)

Thanks for the pointer. I figured out a way to debayer the images using ImageMagick https://github.com/jdthomas/bayer2rgb with a command like:
stream -map r -storage-type char Mars_Perseverance_RLE_0000_0666958396_993ECM_N0010052AUT_04096_00_0LLJ02.png temp.gray && bayer2rgb -i temp.gray -o temp.rgb -w 1280 -v 960 -b 8 -f RGGB -m HQLINEAR && convert -size 1280x960 -depth 8 temp.rgb Mars_Perseverance_RLE_0000.png

I processed all the close up wheel images available so far. The one for the right rear wheel is missing from the NASA page.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 11:20 am
Heh, that junk in the wheels is going to remain there for a very long time as this time the wheels don't have any openings in them.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 11:23 am
Heh, that junk in the wheels is going to remain there for a very long time as this time the wheels don't have any openings in them.

Yeah I had the same thought. Did they get rid of the openings to strengthen the wheels? I saw that was something they wanted to improve after Curiosity got a lot of wheel damage from sharp rocks.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 11:49 am
Heh, that junk in the wheels is going to remain there for a very long time as this time the wheels don't have any openings in them.

Yeah I had the same thought. Did they get rid of the openings to strengthen the wheels? I saw that was something they wanted to improve after Curiosity got a lot of wheel damage from sharp rocks.
I instead was thinking that all the efforts to put the retrorockets well away from rover by using the skycrane, to prevent regolite from damaging the rover, is not working as expected.
I guess that the upcoming rover lowering footage will show it very well: retrorockets actually create an impressive  sandstorm around the rover.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 11:56 am
I instead was thinking that all the efforts to put the retrorockets well away from rover by using the skycrane, to prevent regolite from damaging the rover, is not working as expected.

Is the rover damaged? If not, then it worked as expected. Rest assured that had those descent engines been firing next to the ground, the debris storm would have been much more severe.

I guess that the upcoming rover lowering footage will show it very well: retrorockets actually create an impressive  sandstorm around the rover.

That was never in question. If they hadn't expected dust being kicked up, they wouldn't have put dust caps on the hazcams in the first place.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mike_1179 on 02/22/2021 12:17 pm

One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

The sample return mission needs to land someplace safe. So there’s a balance between how far you want to drive to pick them up and how different you want t the samples to be. If you took 20 samples of stuff from right around this landing site and dropped them all, that would be less scientifically useful but less challenging to pick up and return.

We will see how they balance it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kaputnik on 02/22/2021 12:27 pm
I instead was thinking that all the efforts to put the retrorockets well away from rover by using the skycrane, to prevent regolite from damaging the rover, is not working as expected.
I guess that the upcoming rover lowering footage will show it very well: retrorockets actually create an impressive  sandstorm around the rover.



Curiosity is proof that this method works. And what alternative would you propose? Longer cables would be only one that makes sense.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 12:31 pm
Photogrammetry possibilities are strong for these hazcam images :)

https://twitter.com/coprolite9000/status/1363693879606865920
So let's tune Sketchfab on Perseverance  (https://sketchfab.com/search?q=perseverance&sort_by=-relevance&type=models)and let's see what's coming up. :-)


For MSL there is really cool stuff. (https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/mars-curiosity-rover-sol-930-178f88cb9e684ab986cc42eeb187f82d)

Press "I" to se just the 3d model without texture.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 02/22/2021 01:02 pm
One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

I didn't see this answered in all the conversation about the new images but the samples will be deposited on the surface for future pick up by another vehicle.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-martian-roundtrip-nasas-perseverance-rover-sample-tubes
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dr.Imtiyaz on 02/22/2021 01:06 pm
The images are in, and the success is certain for Ingenuity Helicopter flight will fly in 30-60days over the mars surface for exploration and study of more science.The mars soil sample will be extracted and contained in a sealed tubes for experiment at planet earth with the help of a special spaceflight to the surface and back.The Perseverance Rover is busy with activities like,visual imaging,communicative skill,bearing an ingenuity mini-helicopter in its belly,temperature around and other functional/geological/geographical activities.  :) :) :)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Brian45 on 02/22/2021 01:09 pm

One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

The sample return mission needs to land someplace safe. So there’s a balance between how far you want to drive to pick them up and how different you want t the samples to be. If you took 20 samples of stuff from right around this landing site and dropped them all, that would be less scientifically useful but less challenging to pick up and return.

We will see how they balance it.

I believe the plan is to do two sample drops, one pretty close to where we landed and another much further on. Depending on how high value the samples are considered, there may be duplicates dropped in both locations. There's a video somewhere out there in internet land that explains all the rationale behind this, but I can't find it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/22/2021 01:14 pm
One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

I didn't see this answered in all the conversation about the new images but the samples will be deposited on the surface for future pick up by another vehicle.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-martian-roundtrip-nasas-perseverance-rover-sample-tubes
More specifically (because we already knew about the fetch rover):
Perseverance has a large number of sample containers, and the intention is to fill a pair of containers at each sample site (with a contingence of filling more if a sample is deemed of particular importance). There are multiple strategies for depositing the containers: leaving them along the trail, clustering them in one caches location, leaving one along the trail and keeping the other to caches, leaving small sub-caches, driving off of the trail to free areas to leave caches in better locations for the fetch rover (has less 'all terrain' capability but moves much faster), etc. Each strategy has different benefits and risks, e.g. the fetch rover cannot remove containers from a dead rover, so the longer you hold a container waiting to drop it the higher the risk of never being able to ollect it. Conversely, the longer the fetch rover has to drive to collect containers means the higher the risk of a failure before it can return them to the sample return site (all samples lost). The actual caching strategy is not nailed down, and will change depending on the samples recovered.
As an extreme example, if Perseverence finds a holy-grail "this is very obviously a fossilised multicellular organism, you can even see the endoskeleton" sample, then the cache strategy is like to be to fill as many containers as possible, and deposit one on the trail, one or more in a sub-cache, and one or more at a final cache, and to subsequently direct the fetch rover to the closest cache with the easiest to traverse terrain.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/22/2021 01:47 pm
And just like that, the critics fell silent!  ;D
Yes, because it was a really easy problem to solve! Was that so hard, NASA/JPL? ;)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 02/22/2021 02:00 pm
One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

I didn't see this answered in all the conversation about the new images but the samples will be deposited on the surface for future pick up by another vehicle.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-martian-roundtrip-nasas-perseverance-rover-sample-tubes
More specifically (because we already knew about the fetch rover):
Perseverance has a large number of sample containers, and the intention is to fill a pair of containers at each sample site (with a contingence of filling more if a sample is deemed of particular importance). There are multiple strategies for depositing the containers: leaving them along the trail, clustering them in one caches location, leaving one along the trail and keeping the other to caches, leaving small sub-caches, driving off of the trail to free areas to leave caches in better locations for the fetch rover (has less 'all terrain' capability but moves much faster), etc...

There was a recent caching workshop.  I haven't found a link, but someone took screenshots and posted the presentations to another thread, or perhaps even earlier in this one.

The Perseverance team has identified a number of locations along the planned route where there are safe landing zones for the planned fetch rover/MAV lander.  The idea is that Percy will drop a number of tubes at a location perhaps a couple of hundred meters from one of these safe landing zones.  That way the fetch rover has only a limited distance to traverse.

The strategy laid out in the workshop slides is for Percy to collect ~double samples in Jezero crater.  There is at least one safe landing zone at the planned exit from the crater.  ~Half the samples would be dropped there as an insurance policy should the rover fail during the traverse to Midway.

If Percy survives to the Midway area, it will collect additional samples and then have a collection of Zezero and Midway samples that it can either deposit at a location near one of the safe landing zones and/or deliver to the MAV itself.  In this case, the samples deposited at the exit of Jezero would be uncollected and remain on the surface.

Percy has, I believe, 43 sample tubes (a handful will be reserved as witness tubes).  The last plan I saw for the MAV is that it could carry 30 tubes.  So leaving ~13 tubes at the exit from Jezero wouldn't lesson the number of samples returned if Percy survives to acquire both Jezero and Midway samples.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 02:11 pm
I instead was thinking that all the efforts to put the retrorockets well away from rover by using the skycrane, to prevent regolite from damaging the rover, is not working as expected.
I guess that the upcoming rover lowering footage will show it very well: retrorockets actually create an impressive  sandstorm around the rover.



Curiosity is proof that this method works. And what alternative would you propose? Longer cables would be only one that makes sense.
Yes, 7.5 meters are fery few, maybe 20 meters or more would prevent any interaction of thrusters with soil; but feasibility depends of course on possibility to reach a horizontal speed very close to 0. And anyway if  landing day is a windy day, it could result in a mess.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: JonAl on 02/22/2021 02:34 pm
If the hazard camera protection caps have been jettisoned, should'nt they appear in the surface in later images? Thanks for the reply
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 02:41 pm
If the hazard camera protection caps have been jettisoned, should'nt they appear in the surface in later images? Thanks for the reply

I believe the covers are popped/swung open, but they do not jettison. There might be a spring released during opening.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 02:45 pm
If the hazard camera protection caps have been jettisoned, should'nt they appear in the surface in later images? Thanks for the reply
If this 3d model is accurate, it looks like they are not jettisoned but just opened:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/mars-perseverance-5252c36c911c40698ba93a5f93f9b60f
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/22/2021 03:09 pm
If the hazard camera protection caps have been jettisoned, should'nt they appear in the surface in later images? Thanks for the reply

I believe the covers are popped/swung open, but they do not jettison. There might be a spring released during opening.
From the camera overview (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9):
Quote
The Front Hazcams are protected during EDL by a camera cover assembly. The camera covers have transparent Lexan windows, which allow useable images to be acquired while the covers are closed. The covers are released shortly after touchdown on Mars using a non-explosive actuator (NEA). Once released, the covers flip open using a spring loaded-mechanism and stay in the open position for the remainder of the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Svetoslav on 02/22/2021 05:56 pm
Okay... if anybody wants to read my views about the raw image thing... I've written an article for The Space Review:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4128/1
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 06:07 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQwuYZbA6o&ab_channel=NASA
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: a2soup on 02/22/2021 06:12 pm
No audio collected during EDL, unfortunately.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/22/2021 06:16 pm
Descent & separation Video from presser shown.

That was just unreal. Incredible.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lee Jay on 02/22/2021 06:16 pm
The EDL video made me say "wow" out loud - involuntarily.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 06:19 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4czjS9h4Fpg

WOW.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 06:21 pm
Absolutely stunning. So smooth.

Can't wait to see what the community makes out of this footage considering how amazing they made the 4fps Curiosity footage look.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 06:35 pm
Absolutely mindblowing. The colors too, unbelievable. That parachute inflating so beautifully, that heatshield falling so stably, that clean, sleek and barely glowing skycrane flying away after the rover was obscured by the (sizeable) dust cloud... and that dust behavior in near vacuum, yet not quite, interfering and becoming turbulent when some higher density is reached. Gorgeous.

A couple of points:

- One of the backshell cameras looking back toward the parachute broke upon mortar ejection, but the two others took up the slack and allowed for the parachute video to reach us.
- Some pieces of TPS from the backshell separated alongside the top cover, which was not unexpected given the energy involved, but was an item of interest.
- Upon heatshield separation, one of the 8 springs allowing for said separation broke free and is seen rolling towards the bottom of the shield.
- The engines in the skycrane are not visibly glowing as much as on Earth tests, but you can notice some pink hues too here. The exhaust is transparent and not visible - I wonder how come the *inside* of the nozzles is so dark, I guess they have a really good IR filter on these cameras.
- Powered descent profiles, slew profiles and ground dynamics are gorgeous. Not really a technical observation, but really, they're amazing visuals.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/22/2021 06:37 pm
Here is the first 360 pano shot from Mars

https://youtu.be/wE-aQO9XD1g
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 06:37 pm
HIRISE image with all hardware.

Backshell visibly shattered upon ground impact. Interesting forward double-lobed pattern for the skycrane remains: also visible around Perseverance but (obviously) much more symmetrical and lighter because of the surface scouring.

https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1363934150684721155/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1363934150684721155/photo/1)
https://twitter.com/MarsMaven/status/1363936455983206403

 (https://twitter.com/MarsMaven/status/1363936455983206403)Based on the position of the heat shield and the fact they've stated they'll probably skirt the dune field on MSL's trek northward, I'm guessing it'll be inspected. The backshell fell right at the northern boundary, a bit westward from the landing position, so they might also want to look at it, even from a distance. The skycrane remains are wholly within the dunes, and anyway might include energetic debris - but maybe MastCamZ can get a distant view?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: NextGenSoldier on 02/22/2021 06:39 pm
Unbelievable, this really motivates me to finish up my degree so I can work on the next one!
If this is the standard going forward, amazing things are coming.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 06:43 pm
Microphone didn't work during EDL, but are working on the surface.

Explaining how this extends the enjoyment to visually-impaired people. Speaking in the press conference through a spare microphone identical to the ones on Mars.

They recorded the first ever wind gust, which sounded just like any wind on Earth blowing lightly on a microphone - which is amazing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/22/2021 06:45 pm
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: max_schmurz on 02/22/2021 06:45 pm
The model of the mic is DPA 4006
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 06:54 pm
The radome over one of the backshell's LGAs was one of the chunks of TPS coming off it upon parachute mortar firing. They hoped it wouldn't but it did. No impact or real concern about that though.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: mrhuggy on 02/22/2021 06:55 pm
The videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5lyA6FQArw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJNBcyWsARg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3MF9ZsaQ2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEBhcAJ4IDQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU8TJF-OsoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9LrnAeBY74
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:09 pm
Shoutout to open source software by the mission team members:

Open source Linux box on a commercial Intel-based PC working on the surface of Mars right now.

Image compression on that computer through ffmpg, another open-sourced code.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 07:11 pm
More RAW images added

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/multimedia/raw-images/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:15 pm
Microphones are expected to break down with the temperature swings and the rough overall environment, except perhaps the one close to MastCamZ. However, they'll probably use them to record driving sounds or instruments during checkout/operation (especially MOXIE it appears, they probably can deduce/add important things about its functioning through sound).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:17 pm
No issue with the pebbles on inside of the wheels - which are probably there to stay, considering the low roving velocities.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/22/2021 07:20 pm
The rover deck looks remarkably clean in the new images.  Hardly a spot on it.  No concerns about the landing system!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 07:21 pm
I had a try at making a colour image from some of the new RAWs.

Shouldn't be taken as accurate colour balance etc. Just did it "to taste"

(https://i.imgur.com/CeeR34n.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:22 pm
Seem to be leaning toward the "holey" the rocks being volcanic (not calling it yet but they'd be thrilled to have some so early so that they can take a sample for dating). Aeolian weathering possibility still strong.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:24 pm
Miss distance of actual landing compared to where the Terrain Vision system aimed at, once the terrain recognition algorithm had done its job and a valid solution was computed (i.e. when the rover was still under parachute), was 5 meters (!).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 07:24 pm
That was close!!  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/lMkZ9fz.png)


edit: added images s attachments
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:29 pm
Some details only image buffs appreciate :) and most of us just shamelessly enjoy:

https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1363945093711884288
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:33 pm
So right:

https://twitter.com/mikamckinnon/status/1363941535809638402
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 07:34 pm
In case anybody wants to sync real video to simulated video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNTPcFbixPg
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 07:35 pm
Another attempt at a colour image.

(https://i.imgur.com/Vlv3w9w.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: pb2000 on 02/22/2021 07:39 pm
The video stream encoder at the press site is sh|tting the bed pretty bad, it's basically unwatchable after additional realtime encoders reprocess it for live tv.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: GetCrispy on 02/22/2021 07:40 pm
The videos

Too bad these aren't the full clips used in NASA's montage :(
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/22/2021 07:40 pm
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1363947318773440514

Quote
Well, I have to say, @NASA has flat out delivered so far with Mars Perseverance. None of this is easy. All of it is hard. And the results so far are dazzling. Thank you.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 07:45 pm
The videos

Too bad these aren't the full clips used in NASA's montage :(

I agree. Hopefully more to come!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 07:45 pm
Science teams still debating where to drive to, but they're really happy with where they've landed (because of the area of contact between two different geologic units), so even if not completely driven by engineering considerations, which would allow driving straight to the delta in principle, they'd probably would want to rove along the boundary for a bit to check it out thoroughly.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/22/2021 07:58 pm
Spot the family portrait of Mars rovers ...

 8)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/22/2021 08:00 pm
That was close!!  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/lMkZ9fz.png)
No worries
Always moving away from the vehicle/parachute.
They were moving at over Mach 1
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 08:01 pm
The video stream encoder at the press site is sh|tting the bed pretty bad, it's basically unwatchable after additional realtime encoders reprocess it for live tv.

The constant audio glitches are far more annoying to me and they seem to have been happening regularly recently for the JPL streams.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/22/2021 08:04 pm
Some details only image buffs appreciate :) and most of us just shamelessly enjoy:

Oh, yeah. Especially the raw images that come down Bayered and then the jpg compression on the ground clobbered them as it did with Curiosity. Once you get a Bayer pattern grayscale image jpegged, attempting to de-Bayer it led to horrendous color artifacting.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: pb2000 on 02/22/2021 08:26 pm
The constant audio glitches are far more annoying to me and they seem to have been happening regularly recently for the JPL streams.
The audio is what's making it so bad, but the video glitches happen simultaneously, so it's something in the encoder that's probably causing it. I noticed it on Friday's conference too, but today is much worse.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Wolfram66 on 02/22/2021 08:29 pm
Seem to be leaning toward the "holey" the rocks being volcanic (not calling it yet but they'd be thrilled to have some so early so that they can take a sample for dating). Aeolian weathering possibility still strong.

We Geologists refer to that texture as  "Vuggy" Vug meaning holes..
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 08:44 pm
Some details only image buffs appreciate :) and most of us just shamelessly enjoy:

Oh, yeah. Especially the raw images that come down Bayered and then the jpg compression on the ground clobbered them as it did with Curiosity. Once you get a Bayer pattern grayscale image jpegged, attempting to de-Bayer it led to horrendous color artifacting.

Oh yes I can imagine how turning it to jpeg would totally ruin it!

Does anyone know of a simple way to de-bayer the images or do we only have command line type stuff?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/22/2021 08:57 pm
That was close!!  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/lMkZ9fz.png)
No worries
Always moving away from the vehicle/parachute.
They were moving at over Mach 1
They are not moving away at all, that's the point. They are moving upward... but just until parachute inflates, then they (relatively) come down to parachute and lander at extremely high speed. These frames will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/22/2021 09:13 pm
Some details only image buffs appreciate :) and most of us just shamelessly enjoy:

Oh, yeah. Especially the raw images that come down Bayered and then the jpg compression on the ground clobbered them as it did with Curiosity. Once you get a Bayer pattern grayscale image jpegged, attempting to de-Bayer it led to horrendous color artifacting.

Oh yes I can imagine how turning it to jpeg would totally ruin it!

Does anyone know of a simple way to de-bayer the images or do we only have command line type stuff?

The JPL camera article references this as the de-bayer algorithm they use: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/high-quality-linear-interpolation-for-demosaicing-of-bayer-patterned-color-images/

It should be possible to whip up a little web page with some JavaScript to make it easy.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/22/2021 09:22 pm
Does anyone know the lens details of the HazCams? I’ve de-fisheyed a couple of images in Photoshop using the GoPro default settings but I’ve no reason to believe those are correct!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/22/2021 09:26 pm
"We Geologists refer to that texture as  "Vuggy" Vug meaning holes.. "

We also refer to it as vesicular, 'vesicle' meaning a hole.  A vug is a hole left after a crystal or other object weathers out of a rock,  A vesicle is a hole which was once a gas bubble in lava, trapped as it solidifies.  So the term used carries with it an implication as to the origin of the rock, sedimentary or volcanic.  At this stage it's best to keep options open - use both names or just say 'holes'.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: hoku on 02/22/2021 09:56 pm
Does anyone know the lens details of the HazCams? I’ve de-fisheyed a couple of images in Photoshop using the GoPro default settings but I’ve no reason to believe those are correct!

The attached screen copy of the top of Table 2 of Maki et al. 2020 has some specs.

For more details, see
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/22/2021 09:59 pm
Thanks!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 10:01 pm
This is interesting as the sensors are supposedly full frame but the diagonal angle of view doesn't tally up to the reported focal lengths on a full frame sensor.

Perhaps because they are fisheyes though and I've seen different fisheye lenses of the same claimed focal length give different fields of view and they differ again to rectilinear lenses of the same focal length.

That should be a good place to start anyway.

Some great info on the cameras here.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/22/2021 10:05 pm
That was close!!  :o
No worries
Always moving away from the vehicle/parachute.
They were moving at over Mach 1
They are not moving away at all, that's the point. They are moving upward... but just until parachute inflates, then they (relatively) come down to parachute and lander at extremely high speed. These frames will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning.

I wouldn't be so sure about that when they were specifically asked about off-nominal issues during EDL and they noted none except for some funnies, and went on to describe the detached backshell LGA radome coming free from the mortar blast as one of those. Surely if the jettisoned/liberated fragments were at a risk of recontacting the SC, especially large ones coming toward the parachute at high speed, they would at least have hinted at it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Svetoslav on 02/22/2021 10:12 pm
Can you imagine?

Viking 1 and 2 landers returned together 4,500 photos from the Mars surface between 1976 and 1986.

Less than five days after Perseverance landing, there are 3,625 photos on the raw website, as of the moment of writing this comment. And they're still being uploaded!

Incredible.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kaputnik on 02/22/2021 10:31 pm
Can you imagine?

Viking 1 and 2 landers returned together 4,500 photos from the Mars surface between 1976 and 1986.

Less than five days after Perseverance landing, there are 3,625 photos on the raw website, as of the moment of writing this comment. And they're still being uploaded!

Incredible.

Nit: the Viking mission ended in 1982.
Your point stands, though. We have come a long way!
Even comparing the landing video with MSL's is astonishing. No need for interpolated frames here.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/22/2021 10:33 pm
I’ve just rattled through that paper - it was most, er, illuminating. One thing that is very clear is that panoramas are going to be easier to produce than before from all the cameras. Another is that the base hardware and software are both pretty old but still do the job.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Spock1108 on 02/22/2021 10:50 pm
https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736 (https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736)

Quote
Is it possible that that bright white dot in the distance is the reflection on the backshell? The position seems to me that eye!
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: meekGee on 02/22/2021 11:45 pm
Can you imagine?

Viking 1 and 2 landers returned together 4,500 photos from the Mars surface between 1976 and 1986.

Less than five days after Perseverance landing, there are 3,625 photos on the raw website, as of the moment of writing this comment. And they're still being uploaded!

Incredible.
So the IT is better, but we're still landing comparable masses and no good answers and no sample return and no people.

I'm as happy as the next guy, but it's been 35 years...

Had someone asked you 35 years ago what we'd be landing today, I doubt you'd have said "same thing but with wheels and better antenna".

Ok back to being happy.

EDIT:  not 35, 45.  Man I'm old.
Of course we're getting more pictures.  Viking was launched in 1975 my god there were no personal computers yet, the 8080 just came out and modems were 300 bits/sec.  Over phone lines.  When Viking was being developed, even that didn't exist.

And yet they landed half-a-ton nuclear powered payload on Mars, collected samples, performed experiments.  Two out of two.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/22/2021 11:56 pm
https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736 (https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736)

Quote
Is it possible that that bright white dot in the distance is the reflection on the backshell? The position seems to me that eye!

I'll try and get a slightly closer look. Bare with me. I saw the same thing earlier and I've been meaning to go back to it.

When creating the images from 3 separate monochromes you get very good pixel level detail so you can upscale the images a little and it still looks good.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/23/2021 12:10 am
I can't say for certain but it sure does look somewhat metallic, doesn't it?

(https://i.imgur.com/jN3Vnnt.png)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Cedimedi on 02/23/2021 12:13 am
Did one of the three cables from the skycrane break a bit? Looks like a strand swinging loosely there on the rover uplook camera.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Wolfram66 on 02/23/2021 12:18 am
"We Geologists refer to that texture as  "Vuggy" Vug meaning holes.. "

We also refer to it as vesicular, 'vesicle' meaning a hole.  A vug is a hole left after a crystal or other object weathers out of a rock,  A vesicle is a hole which was once a gas bubble in lava, trapped as it solidifies.  So the term used carries with it an implication as to the origin of the rock, sedimentary or volcanic.  At this stage it's best to keep options open - use both names or just say 'holes'.

Good point. Would have to see a close-up to see if this a vesicular basalt or some other type sedimentary/solution process.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: robertross on 02/23/2021 01:58 am
Did one of the three cables from the skycrane break a bit? Looks like a strand swinging loosely there on the rover uplook camera.
It certainly looked like a couple of strands from a cable snapped.
I'm sure there's a good safety margin in there to lose perhaps 4 strands per cable (rough guess, judging from the cable diameter and stranding)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 02/23/2021 02:12 am
The first sounds recorded from another planet ....Amazing!! Even if it was just Perseverance humming along and wind sounds ...will we be able to hear the rover moving on its wheels ??..drilling ?? ...the helicopter blades whirling and flying ??

Totally frivolous idea but what would it have taken to have the microphones pick up a pre-recorded message playing through a small speaker ?!...just to hear an easily recognizable sound in the Martian atmosphere....the human voice

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nascent Ascent on 02/23/2021 02:21 am
Yeah, I'm thinking something like the loudspeaker on the Bluesmobile from the Blues Bros. ;D
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/23/2021 02:53 am
Some more attempts at making colour images. Just done to taste, not to be super accurate.

(https://i.imgur.com/s7EoAV4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kOljp1V.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g50ZbFu.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nascent Ascent on 02/23/2021 05:23 am
Does anyone know the purpose of the very slight curvature/offset of the wheel treads?  It seems such a small offset I am wondering why it wouldn't just be straight across?

I can imagine this might spread the load of any given tread over a wider area of cylindrical surface, but like I said, it's not much of an offset.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 05:49 am
In the press conference they mentioned they haven't yet calibrated the colour cameras. Will they publish the eventual calibration values somewhere for those of us working with the raw images?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: irresisti on 02/23/2021 06:02 am
Does anyone know the purpose of the very slight curvature/offset of the wheel treads?  It seems such a small offset I am wondering why it wouldn't just be straight across?

I can imagine this might spread the load of any given tread over a wider area of cylindrical surface, but like I said, it's not much of an offset.

"Designed for the kind of off-roading Perseverance will perform on the Red Planet, the wheels are re-engineered versions of the ones NASA's Curiosity has been using on its traverses of Mount Sharp. Machined out of a block of flight-grade aluminum and equipped with titanium spokes, each wheel is slightly larger in diameter and narrower than Curiosity's, with skins that are almost a millimeter thicker. They also feature new treads, or grousers: In place of Curiosity's 24 chevron-pattern treads are 48 gently curved ones. Extensive testing in the Mars Yard at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which built the rover and manages operations, has shown these treads better withstand the pressure from sharp rocks and grip just as well or better than Curiosity's when driving on sand."
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 06:09 am
Has anyone managed to recreate the videos yet? It looks like most of the images posted today are the EDL camera frames.

I also wonder if we will see higher resolution video frames from this uploaded later, it was mentioned there is 30GB of EDL camera data.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Dewski on 02/23/2021 06:12 am
https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736 (https://twitter.com/astro_fra/status/1363998113548148736)
Quote
Is it possible that that bright white dot in the distance is the reflection on the backshell? The position seems to me that eye!
I can't say for certain but it sure does look somewhat metallic, doesn't it?
(https://www.uahirise.org/releases/perseverance/m2020-hardware-labels.jpg)

I apologize for raining on the parade here. I agree it would be amazing if you could see the backshield(shell?). While I am no expert in image analysis, when I look at the above shot taken by HiRISE it seems like the shine is coming off a rock on that nearest ridge that starts from the "Southwest" of Percy, curves when "West" and heads off in a "Northeast" direction until it links with the crater.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 06:34 am
That was close!!  :o
No worries
Always moving away from the vehicle/parachute.
They were moving at over Mach 1
They are not moving away at all, that's the point. They are moving upward... but just until parachute inflates, then they (relatively) come down to parachute and lander at extremely high speed. These frames will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning.

I wouldn't be so sure about that when they were specifically asked about off-nominal issues during EDL and they noted none except for some funnies, and went on to describe the detached backshell LGA radome coming free from the mortar blast as one of those. Surely if the jettisoned/liberated fragments were at a risk of recontacting the SC, especially large ones coming toward the parachute at high speed, they would at least have hinted at it.
The behaviour WAS nominal, all pieces behaved exactly as expected.
Also the cruise stage behaved "as expected" in previous missions.... until they figured out that letting it move along the same trajectory of the descent stage after separation ws not such a good idea, given that the descent stage slows down but the cruise stage doesn't slow down as much.
They ended up changing the cruise+descent attitude before amosphere entry: the two modules are now oriented perpendicularly to the moving direction, whille moving toghether, so after the separation they follow completely different trajectories.

Here, with the parachute cover, I envisage exactly the same problem... but much more risky, because things happen really faster here, and object are really closer than before atmosphere entry: I think the probability of parachute cover recontact with parachute is some dozens of times higher than cruise stage recontact with lander (lander starts slowing down by parachute several minutes after separation from cruise stage).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 06:37 am
Been sifting through the images uploaded today. I spotted the missing zoomed in rear wheel Hazcam shots have been added, so I have attached the debayered images below.

It also seems they tried resending the corrupted/chopped off high resolution images of the Hazcams with covers still on. It seems there is now the front Hazcam with the full image but it is from a different colour channel. Perhaps the was an issue with the saved data on some of the colour channels. It affected both the front and rear camera's "first" cap on images.

Amongst the Navcam images as well as the 1/16th separate RGB channel images there are also some zoomed in ones with a bayer pattern that should offer more detail. In particular I spot one showing the name chips nicely. I will put these up next.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 07:11 am
Here are the debayered Sol 2 zoomed in Navcam images.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 07:22 am
I read that possibly the rover will be directed to skycrane crash site to take some shots.
I wonder: ok that they decided to fly the skycrane away as far as possible, but once it is at a safe distance, why not to try landing it softly? It has all the needed logic to try a soft landing, and this mission (as any other) is a test field for experimenting with soft landing procedures for future manned missions.
Or was the landing logic onboard the rover?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 07:35 am
Secret message in the parachute color pattern has been decoded:

https://mobile.twitter.com/FrenchTech_paf/status/1363992051734478852
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 07:54 am
I read that possibly the rover will be directed to skycrane crash site to take some shots.

The descent stage crashed inside that dune field between the rover and the river delta. They might want to reconsider risking moving the rover into those dunes. It's at the outskirts of the dune field where the dunes start to taper-off in size, but nevertheless.

Also, from MRO imagery it looks like there might not be much to inspect left there.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 08:01 am
I read that possibly the rover will be directed to skycrane crash site to take some shots.

The descent stage crashed inside that dune field between the rover and the river delta. They might want to reconsider risking moving the rover into those dunes. It's at the outskirts of the dune field where the dunes start to taper-off in size, but nevertheless.

Also, from MRO imagery it looks like there might not be much to inspect left there.

FWIW (although he stated he mainly worked on the cruise stage):

https://twitter.com/LongHairNasaGuy/status/1364088529534394372
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 08:12 am
That was close!!  :o
No worries
Always moving away from the vehicle/parachute.
They were moving at over Mach 1
They are not moving away at all, that's the point. They are moving upward... but just until parachute inflates, then they (relatively) come down to parachute and lander at extremely high speed. These frames will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning.

I wouldn't be so sure about that when they were specifically asked about off-nominal issues during EDL and they noted none except for some funnies, and went on to describe the detached backshell LGA radome coming free from the mortar blast as one of those. Surely if the jettisoned/liberated fragments were at a risk of recontacting the SC, especially large ones coming toward the parachute at high speed, they would at least have hinted at it.
The behaviour WAS nominal, all pieces behaved exactly as expected.

No, they were not ALL nominal and they did not behave EXACTLY as expected, as shown. There were off-nominal events, but just funnies: i.e. mission performance was unaffected and nominal, but the subsystem behavior was off-nominal.

Quote
Also the cruise stage behaved "as expected" in previous missions.... until they figured out [...]
Here, with the parachute cover, I envisage exactly the same problem... but much more risky, because things happen really faster here, and object are really closer than before atmosphere entry: I think the probability of parachute cover recontact with parachute is some dozens of times higher than cruise stage recontact with lander (lander starts slowing down by parachute several minutes after separation from cruise stage).

As you say, this would be a much more significant and immediately, visibly, potentially catastrophic event - not some relatively small increase in MonteCarlo outcomes bringing the risk assessment slightly above the threshold as was the cruise stage issue.

It may or may not lead to a redesign - for sure the LGA radome will get a good look, for example, but to authoritatively assert "this will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning" is IMHO uninformed speculation no matter how you spin it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 08:14 am
Here are the RGB combined Navcam images with both left and right. I did not change the colour values from the original files. Hopefully someone can make a cool 3D panoramic.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 08:17 am
At 2:19 into this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1taqzNovbk

you can see the moment the vertically pointed engines are shut down and only the 4 outward-canted ones remain running.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 08:23 am

It may or may not lead to a redesign - for sure the LGA radome will get a good look, for example, but to authoritatively assert "this will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning" is IMHO uninformed speculation no matter how you spin it.
Let's put it in another way: if they were your own 2 billions $, and you had seen  real debris passing 1 meters away from your parachute at 200 km/h, would you redesign next lander/rover, or would you continue trusting your million of montecarlo simulations about nothing going bad?
I would trust reality more than any simulation (btw, that's why those camera are there).

But you can do what you like with your 2 billions, I don't mind.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 08:27 am
déjà vu  ;)

(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/38208.0/2014129.jpg)

(https://mars.nasa.gov/system/resources/detail_files/8528_PIA00765-full2.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 08:46 am

It may or may not lead to a redesign - for sure the LGA radome will get a good look, for example, but to authoritatively assert "this will cause a redesign of parachute cover jettisoning" is IMHO uninformed speculation no matter how you spin it.
Let's put it in another way: if they were your own 2 billions $, and you had seen  real debris passing 1 meters away from your parachute at 200 km/h, would you redesign next lander/rover, or would you continue trusting your million of montecarlo simulations about nothing going bad?
I would trust reality more than any simulation (btw, that's why those camera are there).

But you can do what you like with your 2 billions, I don't mind.


Let's put it this way: the top mission figures responsible for those $2B -and the next pile of money for upcoming missions- have publicly, unequivocally stated no off-nominal EDL events, except some funnies (i.e. off-nominal subsystem behavior which doesn't directly affect completely nominal mission performance, including fragments with a lower ballistic coefficient than the large, flat, light cover that is nominally ejected  along the negative flight direction, and obviously not at risk of recontact).

Moreover, no discordant voices or rumors have surfaced from lower-downs, and indeed the message been repeated by some of those. Indeed, maybe you can show where the pieces pass close to the inflated parachute at very high speed in the video, because I've replayed it several times and cannot for the life of me see anything other than compression artifacts - much less where you're pulling the 200 km/h from.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 09:17 am
At 2:19 into this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1taqzNovbk

you can see the moment the vertically pointed engines are shut down and only the 4 outward-canted ones remain running.

Cool!

(https://i.imgur.com/0hG2LGx.png)

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 09:49 am
Indeed, maybe you can show where the pieces pass close to the inflated parachute at very high speed in the video, because I've replayed it several times and cannot for the life of me see anything other than compression artifacts - much less where you're pulling the 200 km/h from.
It's very, very fast, just one frame in one of the two videos:
(https://i.imgur.com/Bnuif1b.png)

(hints:
- stop the video and use "," and ".", or "<" and ">", depending on keyboard layout, to play frame by frame
- use highest resolution video, regardless of your monitor resolution
- put your monitor brightness at highest value
).



I don't know if it's the greatest piece (the cover) or one of the other, but none of them have enough time to get very far from lander trajectory.

Of course 200 km/h is just a guess: the terminal velocity of an object falling with parachute on mars is around 200 km/h, and here we have an object on parachute and an object in freefall. Relative speed could be anything between 0 and 200 kmh... and at any speed an object passing through a parachute leads to bad results.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 11:02 am
Indeed, maybe you can show where the pieces pass close to the inflated parachute at very high speed in the video, because I've replayed it several times and cannot for the life of me see anything other than compression artifacts - much less where you're pulling the 200 km/h from.
It's very, very fast, just one frame in one of the two videos

(hints:
- stop the video and use "," and ".", or "<" and ">", depending on keyboard layout, to play frame by frame
- use highest resolution video, regardless of your monitor resolution
- put your monitor brightness at highest value
).

I don't know if it's the greatest piece (the cover) or one of the other, but none of them have enough time to get very far from lander trajectory.

Of course 200 km/h is just a guess: the terminal velocity of an object falling with parachute on mars is around 200 km/h, and here we have an object on parachute and an object in freefall. Relative speed could be anything between 0 and 200 kmh... and at any speed an object passing through a parachute leads to bad results.

Are you seriously claiming you can authoritatively forego all mission simulation analysis and public statements so far to claim the parachute was almost shredded by a falling debris piece and will need to be thoroughly redesigned... because of a:
- blurry,
- translucent,
- clear (when the debris pieces were visibly dark upon release) smudge
- on a single frame
- just off-camera from the glaring sun, which indeed creates slight brightenings around that area as the assembly oscillates in several other occasions during the short video available (i.e. could be a flare)
- just as the chute's kevlar lines have visibly snapped into tension in a fraction of a second a few frames before, leading to similar but better defined artifacts around the canopy (i.e. could be a piece of chord launched forward, or something jolted off the backshell moving backward - can't tell with a single frame)
- when the mission team has seen ice-like debris coming off the descent assembly at heatshield separation (i.e. could be a piece of condensation coming off the just-opened area)
???

PS: Attach, don't embed, images. It's forum policy, poor practice towards the hot-linked sites, messes with the board's formatting, and sometimes your image can't even be seen (in this case, my work PC blocks Igmuir and when the image fails to load it isn't reported, so it looks like a plain text post).
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 12:14 pm
Indeed, maybe you can show where the pieces pass close to the inflated parachute at very high speed in the video, because I've replayed it several times and cannot for the life of me see anything other than compression artifacts - much less where you're pulling the 200 km/h from.
It's very, very fast, just one frame in one of the two videos

(hints:
- stop the video and use "," and ".", or "<" and ">", depending on keyboard layout, to play frame by frame
- use highest resolution video, regardless of your monitor resolution
- put your monitor brightness at highest value
).

I don't know if it's the greatest piece (the cover) or one of the other, but none of them have enough time to get very far from lander trajectory.

Of course 200 km/h is just a guess: the terminal velocity of an object falling with parachute on mars is around 200 km/h, and here we have an object on parachute and an object in freefall. Relative speed could be anything between 0 and 200 kmh... and at any speed an object passing through a parachute leads to bad results.

Are you seriously claiming you can authoritatively forego all mission simulation analysis and public statements so far to claim the parachute was almost shredded by a falling debris piece and will need to be thoroughly redesigned... because of a
[...]
No, because of physics: lander slows down, cover does not, they are following very similar trajectories, hence they can easily collide. In an ideal world, they would collide by sure; luckily, air turbulence moved the cover away from parachute trajectory enough meters to avoid collision. 2B$ saved by luck. Possibly exomars was not so lucky.

The single frame is just a demonstration of validity of this hypotesis.

Anyway I am not talking about parachute redesign, just parachute cover redesign, and it would have a very limited cost: it shall be unbalanced (i.e., its barycenter shall not lie on its geometrical center) and the inner part shall be heavily asymmetrical: this way both gravity and air actingon it would not act symmetrically, and it it would deviate more easily from its original trajectory.
But a more efficient design would be using more than one cover, jettisoned in opposite directions, perpendicularly to trajectory (like fairings/petals).

(I would like to find again the paper describing how NASA arrived to conclusion of possible recontact of cruise stage with lander due to too much similar trajectories, to see how they arrived to this conclusion and why they didn't think of it before)
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 12:24 pm
No, because of physics: lander slows down, cover does not

Unless you know what the ballistic coefficient of the cover is compared to the vehicle under deployed parachute, I don't think you can make such sweeping statements.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 12:35 pm
This is interesting as the sensors are supposedly full frame but the diagonal angle of view doesn't tally up to the reported focal lengths on a full frame sensor.

Perhaps because they are fisheyes though and I've seen different fisheye lenses of the same claimed focal length give different fields of view and they differ again to rectilinear lenses of the same focal length.

That should be a good place to start anyway.

Some great info on the cameras here.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-020-00765-9

Looking at the images, it seems they are cropped, as I think the field of view at the top and bottom differ, and looking at the shadows in the corners it seems to only be a rectangular portion of the circular lens. There is mention in the paper about cropping out the sun visors, so this might be the cause.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 12:52 pm
No, because of physics: lander slows down, cover does not, they are following very similar trajectories, hence they can easily collide. In an ideal world, they would collide by sure; luckily, air turbulence moved the cover away from parachute trajectory enough meters to avoid collision. 2B$ saved by luck. Possibly exomars was not so lucky.

The single frame is just a demonstration of validity of this hypotesis.

Anyway I am not talking about parachute redesign, just parachute cover redesign [...].

The "smudge" you point out in the video can be a reflection, a kevlar strand, a piece of ice, a chunk of TPS blowing free, even (however unlikely I find it) you might argue for some heavy piece of debris zooming past the parachute from above... but it's *NOT* the circular chute bay cover, that much is certain. OTOH I'm sure these Rub Goldberg contraptions you propose are much better than the implemented solutions in MSL. Make sure to propose them to the team.

The bolded sentence is just an exercise in arrogance and pareidolian self-fulfilled prophecies, so I won't comment further. I suggest you refrain from preaching further authoritative comments when your only proof is a smudged frame, in the interest of not derailing this thread - especially when you were yelling for people to stop posting about another, more relevant topic en vogue for half of the space fans community a few short days ago. One can only wonder what the sentence highlighted in italics might mean (ExoMars 2016 = Schiaparelli crashed because of debris impact? ExoMars 2022 = RF will be even less lucky?), but at this point it's no longer important.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 12:56 pm
I'll get in touch directly with Allen Chen to see what he thinks.
I already informed Exomars 2016 team about how much different the shape of the parachute remains  appears from orbit w.r.t any other lander. They were quite interested on my theory. Probably I delayed the launch of Exomars2020 by a couple of years, but it was worth the effort.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: eeergo on 02/23/2021 01:08 pm
I'll get in touch directly with Allen Chen to see what he thinks.

Please do, and do keep us posted with the answer.

Quote
I already informed Exomars 2016 team about how much different the shape of the parachute remains  appears from orbit w.r.t any other lander. They were quite interested on my theory.

I'm sure they were, especially when the IMU problem was uncovered and the parachute descent was determined to be nominal:

https://sci.esa.int/documents/33431/35950/1567260317467-ESA_ExoMars_2016_Schiaparelli_Anomaly_Inquiry.pdf

You might find the Chandrayaan-2 thread in the to your liking: some there have discovered a separated intact rover on the surface from a single pixel.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Kaputnik on 02/23/2021 01:10 pm
I wonder: ok that they decided to fly the skycrane away as far as possible, but once it is at a safe distance, why not to try landing it softly? It has all the needed logic to try a soft landing, and this mission (as any other) is a test field for experimenting with soft landing procedures for future manned missions.
Or was the landing logic onboard the rover?

Safest, simplest, and easiest thing to do is command it to fly until propellant depletion. Maximises distance from the rover and minimises risks of being caught out by things like incorrect propellant level sensors, failed engines, or adverse winds.

Last time around there was a whole side discussion with some people thinking that deliberately crashing the descent stage was somehow wasting a resource that could be reused by future hypothetical missions. I never understood that argument.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: nzguy on 02/23/2021 01:19 pm
I have been trying to get a feeling for the lay of the land around the rover by comparing hills in the panorama with the map of the landing site.

So far I see:
1 - large hill part of lake rim North of the dry river mouth, NW of rover
2 - edge of the river delta, NW of rover
3 - gap in lake rim at river mouth, NW of rover
4 - collection of smaller hills E of rover
5 - faint hill in the distance SE of rover, I think it might be this crater but if anyone else knows please comment
6 - collection of smaller hills in front of large lake rim ridge line
7 - ridge line part of lake rim South of the dry river mount, W of rover
8 - small hill SE of rover, I think it is this feature in the panorama but if anyone else knows please comment

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 01:39 pm
I'll get in touch directly with Allen Chen to see what he thinks.
I already informed Exomars 2016 team about how much different the shape of the parachute remains  appears from orbit w.r.t any other lander. They were quite interested on my theory. Probably I delayed the launch of Exomars2020 by a couple of years, but it was worth the effort.

When you get those letters that start "Thank you for your interest in our space program..." the reality is that they are patting you on the head and shooing you away.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 01:43 pm

I'm sure they were, especially when the IMU problem was uncovered and the parachute descent was determined to be nominal:

https://sci.esa.int/documents/33431/35950/1567260317467-ESA_ExoMars_2016_Schiaparelli_Anomaly_Inquiry.pdf

Are you able to figure out why the Schiaparelli Anomaly Inquiry is far from being complete, and hence completely useless, as I notified to Exomars2016 team?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 01:46 pm
I wonder: ok that they decided to fly the skycrane away as far as possible, but once it is at a safe distance, why not to try landing it softly? It has all the needed logic to try a soft landing, and this mission (as any other) is a test field for experimenting with soft landing procedures for future manned missions.
Or was the landing logic onboard the rover?

Safest, simplest, and easiest thing to do is command it to fly until propellant depletion. Maximises distance from the rover and minimises risks of being caught out by things like incorrect propellant level sensors, failed engines, or adverse winds.

Last time around there was a whole side discussion with some people thinking that deliberately crashing the descent stage was somehow wasting a resource that could be reused by future hypothetical missions. I never understood that argument.
I guess they were talking about reuse of know-how, not of the skycrane.
Of course crashing an object is easier than landing it, but space missions are used to learn. Each single element of a mission teaches something new to the designers.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 01:50 pm
Okay... if anybody wants to read my views about the raw image thing... I've written an article for The Space Review:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4128/1
x

that was unnecessary
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/23/2021 01:56 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then burns to depletion. While nothing other than mass budget technically prevents adding an extra navigation and guidance system (that has some sort of hard cutoff to prevent it inadvertently demanding control before handover from the rover), it would deliver very little value in soft-landing the otherwise inert Skycrane vs. the current derisking setup. A few additional seconds of controlled flight bring nothing new that could not be achieved during the controlled flight portion of descent.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 02:00 pm
I read that possibly the rover will be directed to skycrane crash site to take some shots.
I wonder: ok that they decided to fly the skycrane away as far as possible, but once it is at a safe distance, why not to try landing it softly? It has all the needed logic to try a soft landing, and this mission (as any other) is a test field for experimenting with soft landing procedures for future manned missions.
Or was the landing logic onboard the rover?

All computing is on the rover.   And not guaranteed that there would be propellant left for landing
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 02:08 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then burns to depletion.

While not really pertinent to your point, it appears that the statement of burning to depletion is incorrect, at least in M2020 case and even though technical literature apparently stated so.

https://twitter.com/icancallubetty/status/1363589833109610497

Quote from: Allen Chen
We don't burn to depletion.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 02:19 pm
These should be ephemeris for Phobos and Deimos from Jezero crater in these days, if I used right query (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&COMMAND=%27402%27&CENTER=%[email protected]%27&OBJ_DATA=%27yes%27&MAKE_EPHEM=%27yes%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27OBSERVER%27&REF_PLANE=%27ECLIPTIC%27&COORD_TYPE=%27GEODETIC%27&SITE_COORD=%27-77.69,18.41,0%27&START_TIME=%272021/2/18%2020:00%27&STOP_TIME=%272021/3/28%2021:00%27&STEP_SIZE=%2712h%27&QUANTITIES=%274%27&FIXED_QUANTITIES=%27Custom%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&VECT_TABLE=%273%27&VECT_CORR=%27NONE%27&CAL_FORMAT=%27CAL%27&ANG_FORMAT=%27DEG%27&APPARENT=%27AIRLESS%27&TIME_TYPE=%27UTC%27&TIME_DIGITS=%27MINUTES%27&RANGE_UNITS=%27AU%27&SUPPRESS_RANGE_RATE=%27no%27&SKIP_DAYLT=%27no%27&EXTRA_PREC=%27yes%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27yes%27&VEC_LABELS=%27yes%27&ELM_LABELS=%27yes%27&TP_TYPE=%27ABSOLUTE%27&R_T_S_ONLY=%27NO%27&CA_TABLE_TYPE=%27STANDARD%27), with Apparent Magnitude and Surface Brightness:


Date__(UT)__HR:MN, , , Azi_(a-app), Elev_(a-app),    APmag,  S-brt,
********************************************************************
$$SOE
 2021-Feb-18 20:00,*,x,   94.572816,    -9.771594,   -8.211,  5.114,
 2021-Feb-19 08:00, , ,   83.116834,   -35.226250,   -7.923,  1.700,
 2021-Feb-19 20:00,*, ,   72.523612,   -54.473122,   -7.699,  5.281,
 2021-Feb-20 08:00, , ,   35.426676,   -73.836053,   -7.589,  1.096,
 2021-Feb-20 20:00,*, ,  324.451496,   -72.997666,   -7.604,  5.215,
 2021-Feb-21 08:00, , ,  286.551245,   -54.666771,   -7.684,  3.382,
 2021-Feb-21 20:00,*, ,  276.897370,   -34.141073,   -7.940,  4.913,
 2021-Feb-22 08:00, ,x,  265.480484,   -10.075591,   -8.199,  4.477,
 2021-Feb-22 20:00,*,x,  255.244091,    19.100356,   -8.691,  3.999,
 2021-Feb-23 08:00, ,x,  231.295085,    47.514841,   -8.968,  5.155,
 2021-Feb-23 20:00,*,x,  150.157246,    57.727383,   -9.086,  0.814,
 2021-Feb-24 08:00, ,x,  112.712263,    32.664719,   -8.842,  5.156,
 2021-Feb-24 20:00,*,x,   98.160206,    -0.350455,   -8.347,  4.069,
 2021-Feb-25 08:00, , ,   87.405272,   -23.828466,   -8.065,  4.546,
 2021-Feb-25 20:00,*, ,   78.788768,   -46.997051,   -7.738,  4.855,
 2021-Feb-26 08:00, , ,   55.526756,   -66.535702,   -7.638,  3.542,
 2021-Feb-26 20:00,*, ,  356.063849,   -76.687318,   -7.554,  5.182,
 2021-Feb-27 08:00, , ,  295.934734,   -62.350576,   -7.647,  1.508,
 2021-Feb-27 20:00,*, ,  281.388626,   -44.385092,   -7.791,  5.296,
 2021-Feb-28 08:00, , ,  269.017220,   -19.264630,   -8.077,  1.754,
 2021-Feb-28 20:00,*,x,  261.868712,     4.779302,   -8.472,  5.156,
 2021-Mar-01 08:00, ,x,  242.087376,    35.980778,   -8.817,  4.148,
 2021-Mar-01 20:00,*,x,  190.835041,    62.483339,   -9.153,  4.142,
 2021-Mar-02 08:00, ,x,  125.774947,    44.819186,   -8.918,  5.174,
 2021-Mar-02 20:00,*,x,  101.896661,    11.328321,   -8.552,  0.447,
 2021-Mar-03 08:00, , ,   92.350145,   -12.553042,   -8.180,  5.262,




 Date__(UT)__HR:MN, , , Azi_(a-app), Elev_(a-app),    APmag,  S-brt,
********************************************************************
$$SOE
 2021-Feb-18 20:00,*,x,  294.627406,   -58.788903,   -4.904,  4.881,
 2021-Feb-19 08:00, , ,    3.085847,   -73.719647,   -4.870,  2.545,
 2021-Feb-19 20:00,*, ,   62.809460,   -55.966912,   -4.911,  5.271,
 2021-Feb-20 08:00, , ,   84.574680,   -30.053490,   -5.013,  2.745,
 2021-Feb-20 20:00,*, ,   90.800982,     1.523735,   -5.180,  4.806,
 2021-Feb-21 08:00, , ,  107.667570,    32.208585,   -5.340,  4.861,
 2021-Feb-21 20:00,*, ,  140.491518,    62.692353,   -5.452,  2.151,
 2021-Feb-22 08:00, ,x,  228.731959,    61.614310,   -5.449,  5.253,
 2021-Feb-22 20:00,*,x,  252.962019,    28.398245,   -5.320,  3.701,
 2021-Feb-23 08:00, ,x,  270.206093,    -1.858471,   -5.157,  4.397,
 2021-Feb-23 20:00,*,x,  277.936161,   -32.660111,   -4.996,  5.087,
 2021-Feb-24 08:00, ,x,  297.695800,   -59.407322,   -4.893,  0.736,
 2021-Feb-24 20:00,*,x,    7.059808,   -72.137695,   -4.864,  5.241,
 2021-Feb-25 08:00, , ,   69.354695,   -56.483790,   -4.900,  3.617,
 2021-Feb-25 20:00,*, ,   80.731853,   -27.267361,   -5.018,  4.533,
 2021-Feb-26 08:00, , ,   94.297966,     1.918035,   -5.174,  5.036,
 2021-Feb-26 20:00,*, ,  107.793197,    33.978556,   -5.339,  1.034,
 2021-Feb-27 08:00, , ,  140.139067,    65.714757,   -5.451,  5.219,
 2021-Feb-27 20:00,*, ,  224.890089,    57.063148,   -5.427,  4.095,
 2021-Feb-28 08:00, , ,  258.584501,    28.624392,   -5.312,  4.036,
 2021-Feb-28 20:00,*,x,  268.062416,    -4.091592,   -5.136,  5.211,
 2021-Mar-01 08:00, ,x,  278.585461,   -33.945963,   -4.981,  0.048,
 2021-Mar-01 20:00,*,x,  302.957173,   -59.162699,   -4.885,  5.142,
 2021-Mar-02 08:00, ,x,   14.139405,   -75.574780,   -4.850,  4.219,
 2021-Mar-02 20:00,*,x,   64.944493,   -53.457860,   -4.901,  4.117,
 2021-Mar-03 08:00, , ,   83.542530,   -26.720712,   -5.012,  5.179,
 2021-Mar-03 20:00,*, ,   95.250834,     3.196402,   -5.172, -0.233,

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 02/23/2021 02:19 pm
Okay... if anybody wants to read my views about the raw image thing... I've written an article for The Space Review:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4128/1
x

that was unnecessary

I don't understand this terse comment.


The linked article was a well written summary of the Perseverance Image release issue.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 02:27 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then [...]
So it's better looking at skycrane as an object jettisoned by the rover, like backshell or heatshield, rather than something which flies away on its own, right?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 03:06 pm
Okay... if anybody wants to read my views about the raw image thing... I've written an article for The Space Review:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4128/1
x

that was unnecessary

I don't understand this terse comment.


The linked article was a well written summary of the Perseverance Image release issue.

I believe he said it was unnecessary because there was no issue. The fact is that there is a bubble with anxious people who were bothered by an illusory delay in releasing the images, and outside that bubble is the real world where NASA followed everything it had planned to follow, within the estimated time, without even wasting time looking for this bubble.

Can we debate the mission and leave behind this "issue" that was two and a half days without new photos? This topic and mission are much bigger than that.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: freddo411 on 02/23/2021 03:16 pm


I believe he said it was unnecessary because there was no issue. The fact is that there is a bubble with anxious people who were bothered by an illusory delay in releasing the images, and outside that bubble is the real world where NASA followed everything it had planned to follow, within the estimated time, without even wasting time looking for this bubble.

Can we debate the mission and leave behind this "issue" that was two and a half days without new photos? This topic and mission are much bigger than that.

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.

It's gaslighting to pretend otherwise.

If you want to move on, stop being weird about it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/23/2021 03:21 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then [...]
So it's better looking at skycrane as an object jettisoned by the rover, like backshell or heatshield, rather than something which flies away on its own, right?
It has its own flight logic and software: motor control, IMU, ability to stabilise and divert independently, at lease one downward-facing camera (though for diagnsotics purposes only, LVSCam is quite different from the EDL cameras), etc. What it does not have is software (and hardware hosting it) to independently determine its own position (by necessity this requires optical navigation) and make decisions on flight planning. It can 'fly' itself on a simple predetermined trajectory from a known start point, but it cannot fly to some specific location.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 03:39 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then [...]
So it's better looking at skycrane as an object jettisoned by the rover, like backshell or heatshield, rather than something which flies away on its own, right?

'The descent stage is discarded much like the Apollo service module.  Simple logic controllers kept the thrusters firing.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 03:44 pm
MyRadar correspondent Miles O'Brien breaks down Perseverance's "seven minutes of terror" with JPL's Entry, Descent & Landing (EDL) Lead Al Chen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gMt7nJbSbs
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 03:46 pm
The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then [...]
So it's better looking at skycrane as an object jettisoned by the rover, like backshell or heatshield, rather than something which flies away on its own, right?
It has its own flight logic and software: motor control, IMU, ability to stabilise and divert independently, at lease one downward-facing camera (though for diagnsotics purposes only, LVSCam is quite different from the EDL cameras), etc. What it does not have is software (and hardware hosting it) to independently determine its own position (by necessity this requires optical navigation) and make decisions on flight planning. It can 'fly' itself on a simple predetermined trajectory from a known start point, but it cannot fly to some specific location.

Not really.  It doesn't fly itself on a  simple predetermined trajectory.  It has simple logic devices that set the thrusters to 100% at "jettison" and then a few seconds later set the thrusters on one side to 50% thrust.  It does no other adjustments to control the fly off trajectory,
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 04:12 pm

One question I have is about the soil samples that Perseverance will keep for later collection. Will she leave these samples along the way, or will she leave them all in one place?

The sample return mission needs to land someplace safe. So there’s a balance between how far you want to drive to pick them up and how different you want t the samples to be. If you took 20 samples of stuff from right around this landing site and dropped them all, that would be less scientifically useful but less challenging to pick up and return.

We will see how they balance it.

I believe the plan is to do two sample drops, one pretty close to where we landed and another much further on. Depending on how high value the samples are considered, there may be duplicates dropped in both locations. There's a video somewhere out there in internet land that explains all the rationale behind this, but I can't find it.

Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?

I believe that we will soon know how Perseverance will handle these samples.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: AstroWare on 02/23/2021 04:27 pm
I heard discussions from the press conference about the continued use of the EDL microphone during the mission, but has there been any discussion about continuing to use the Rover downlook and Rover uplook cameras? Maybe there are some possible uses?

Downlook: an additional engineering camera for driving. Can possibly be used to better determine wheel slip then any of the other hazcams since it's facing directly down.

Uplook: robotic arm inspections. science sky watching. Cloud formations, measuring sky opacity (looking at sun brightness?), Night time operations watching meteors,long exposure night photographs of the stars from mars.

(I'm of the belief that hardware should be reused and repurposed as long as practical. All this would have to follow the EDL camera system mantra of do-no-harm and we get what we get. But if it's already there - maybe some graduate/undergrad students could do some interesting work with them!)

https://www.flir.com/discover/iis/flir-machine-vision-cameras-are-headed-to-mars/
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 04:31 pm


Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

not impractical because the retrieval rover will be designed for it.   It will be more mobile.


I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?


No, because that requires Perseverance to backtrack.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Svetoslav on 02/23/2021 04:32 pm
Okay... if anybody wants to read my views about the raw image thing... I've written an article for The Space Review:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4128/1
x

that was unnecessary

I don't understand this terse comment.


The linked article was a well written summary of the Perseverance Image release issue.

I believe he said it was unnecessary because there was no issue. The fact is that there is a bubble with anxious people who were bothered by an illusory delay in releasing the images, and outside that bubble is the real world where NASA followed everything it had planned to follow, within the estimated time, without even wasting time looking for this bubble.

Can we debate the mission and leave behind this "issue" that was two and a half days without new photos? This topic and mission are much bigger than that.


I submitted this manuscript on Sunday. Several hours later the image pipeline was opened. I was ready with a retraction letter. Then the editor Jeff convinced me that the points I wrote in the article are important enough and suggested rewriting. I agreed with him and we prepared the article for publishing. In the end, it turned out to be a good summary and I am happy with the end result.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: spacexplorer on 02/23/2021 04:41 pm
It has its own flight logic and software: motor control, IMU, ability to stabilise and divert independently
This is not "logic", is "control".
"Logic" decides, and also receives feedback and decides again; "control" just does.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 04:52 pm


Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

not impractical because the retrieval rover will be designed for it.   It will be more mobile.


I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?


No, because that requires Perseverance to backtrack.

Interesting.

But why backtrack? Perseverance doesn't have a way to record the location where she took a sample? The only way to know where it was collected is by leaving it at the collection site?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: fatdeeman on 02/23/2021 05:04 pm
That was close!!  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/lMkZ9fz.png)


edit: added images s attachments

Looks like a lens flare to me. They show up in various forms in frames from both cameras.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 05:11 pm
But why backtrack? Perseverance doesn't have a way to record the location where she took a sample? The only way to know where it was collected is by leaving it at the collection site?

Think of those samples as risk. When the sample is collected, it is now something valuable. If it is carried on the rover, then the rover operators become more risk averse. They don't want to carry that sample someplace where the rover could get stuck and the sample cannot be retrieved. So the plan is to offload the samples periodically to reduce the risk for the mission. (To take an extreme example, imagine that Perseverance has filled up 30 sample containers with high value Mars stuff and not dropped any off. And then it gets stuck. You won't be able to take another rover in to get that material because it will also get stuck. The mission would then have failed a major science objective.)

They looked at a bunch of different sample collection strategies. One was dropping off samples in the rover's path, perhaps 2-5 at a time. Another was creating a kind of collection point(s) where the rover would go back to and keep dropping samples. You can imagine that there are limits to all these approaches, both in terms of how far the rover can travel to get new samples, and how much work is left for the sample fetch rover.

I heard several presentations about these different approaches over the years. I gotta say that they were real mind-benders. Rather fascinating to hear them described. I don't know what final strategy they selected, but no matter what it was, I suspect that they will alter that strategy based upon what they encounter.

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 05:17 pm


I believe he said it was unnecessary because there was no issue. The fact is that there is a bubble with anxious people who were bothered by an illusory delay in releasing the images, and outside that bubble is the real world where NASA followed everything it had planned to follow, within the estimated time, without even wasting time looking for this bubble.

Can we debate the mission and leave behind this "issue" that was two and a half days without new photos? This topic and mission are much bigger than that.

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.

I get a kick out of you guys bringing up "US taxpayers" on this issue (some of the people who have raised it are not even US citizens), as if simply because you pay taxes, that entitles you to Mars images. It doesn't, just as paying taxes doesn't entitle you to ride on a nuclear submarine. The mission has science goals. The taxpayers are served when the mission accomplishes those science goals.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Lee Jay on 02/23/2021 05:19 pm


I believe he said it was unnecessary because there was no issue. The fact is that there is a bubble with anxious people who were bothered by an illusory delay in releasing the images, and outside that bubble is the real world where NASA followed everything it had planned to follow, within the estimated time, without even wasting time looking for this bubble.

Can we debate the mission and leave behind this "issue" that was two and a half days without new photos? This topic and mission are much bigger than that.

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.

It looks like that time was spent downloading the EDL video, which is much more useful in whole than in part.  So it seems "explained" to me, even though no explanation is required.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Steve G on 02/23/2021 05:24 pm
Here is a posting by Phil Stooke on Unmannedspaceflight.com with links on the cache of samples. Very good reading.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=8548&st=45

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 05:39 pm
But why backtrack? Perseverance doesn't have a way to record the location where she took a sample? The only way to know where it was collected is by leaving it at the collection site?

Think of those samples as risk. When the sample is collected, it is now something valuable. If it is carried on the rover, then the rover operators become more risk averse. They don't want to carry that sample someplace where the rover could get stuck and the sample cannot be retrieved. So the plan is to offload the samples periodically to reduce the risk for the mission. (To take an extreme example, imagine that Perseverance has filled up 30 sample containers with high value Mars stuff and not dropped any off. And then it gets stuck. You won't be able to take another rover in to get that material because it will also get stuck. The mission would then have failed a major science objective.)

They looked at a bunch of different sample collection strategies. One was dropping off samples in the rover's path, perhaps 2-5 at a time. Another was creating a kind of collection point(s) where the rover would go back to and keep dropping samples. You can imagine that there are limits to all these approaches, both in terms of how far the rover can travel to get new samples, and how much work is left for the sample fetch rover.

I heard several presentations about these different approaches over the years. I gotta say that they were real mind-benders. Rather fascinating to hear them described. I don't know what final strategy they selected, but no matter what it was, I suspect that they will alter that strategy based upon what they encounter.

Got it! Thank you very much for all the explanation. I think the best way to recover would be with boots on the ground. Other than that, we have to do things that are not always very practical, but safer.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Mader Levap on 02/23/2021 05:45 pm
Last time around there was a whole side discussion with some people thinking that deliberately crashing the descent stage was somehow wasting a resource that could be reused by future hypothetical missions. I never understood that argument.
Oh, I remember that discussion. That was silliest (to be undeservedly nice) thing ever. How do you even reuse that? Like, literally? Bring it back to Earth... somehow... ?...
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 02/23/2021 05:58 pm
In terms of image release, I think JPL could learn a lesson from the Grateful Dead.

JPL seriously underestimates how much fans like to see stuff as it happens, and needlessly worries it will scoop their formal news announcements later.  This in my mind is a bogus argument - the exact same fanatics who will download the images instantly are plenty interested enough to watch the press conference later, plus tell all their friends.   JPL now is just like the older rock groups, who worried that allowing recordings in concert might eat into their record sales, whereas the Dead explicitly allowed live recordings and set up areas just for this purpose.  They said "Look, these are exactly the folks that own all of our studio albums already. They are our best ambassadors - we should encourage and help them."

JPL at least used to understand this.   I worked there in 1974 (as an undergraduate), and in the main cafeteria, the incoming images from Mariner 10 were displayed, scan line by scan line, as they arrived.  This required a non-trivial effort (https://authors.library.caltech.edu/70488/1/Danielson_et_al-1975-Journal_of_Geophysical_Research-_Solid_Earth_%281978-2012%29.pdf), but JPL knew folks were interested:
Quote
In real-time processing, about half of the images were reconstructed immediately upon receipt of the data in both volatile and hard-copy forms to support engineering and press release requirements. The volatile display was converted to standard 525-1ine television and distributed by video cable to monitors used by engineers and scientists..."
That's a LOT more work than turning on the switch for raw-images-to-web-server, but they understood the fascination of seeing data as soon as possible.  They should give the public credit for the same burning curiosity as they themselves exhibit, and encourage it as much as possible.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 06:07 pm


Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

not impractical because the retrieval rover will be designed for it.   It will be more mobile.


I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?


No, because that requires Perseverance to backtrack.

Interesting.

But why backtrack? Perseverance doesn't have a way to record the location where she took a sample? The only way to know where it was collected is by leaving it at the collection site?

How else is it going to leave samples in one place without back tracking?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 06:08 pm
Got it! Thank you very much for all the explanation. I think the best way to recover would be with boots on the ground. Other than that, we have to do things that are not always very practical, but safer.

Putting humans on Mars is going to be far more expensive than robotic sample return.

When you look at the whole chain of missions and operations to do Mars sample return, you start to appreciate just how complicated this stuff is. And everything you do has risk associated with it. Driving that rover is riskier than leaving it in one spot. Going over an obstacle is riskier than driving on a flat surface. And as the earlier rovers discovered, even what looks like flat sand could turn into a sand trap that stalls out the rover.

As this mission progresses, they're going to see things that they want to explore, and then they'll have to assess the risk of doing those things. And that is going to affect how they drop those samples too. Imagine they drive the rover up to a gully and the camera shows a really interesting spot inside. Maybe something that they want to sample. That then raises a question: how risky is it going into that gully? Could the rover get stuck? Is it too risky to go at all? Or maybe they should wait and go collect other samples, and deposit them, and then consider coming back to the gully near the end of the mission, after they have collected lots of other great samples that are now out in easy locations to retrieve. They're going to be making these decisions as the mission progresses, trying to maximize the science return, and to minimize risk.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 06:11 pm


Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

not impractical because the retrieval rover will be designed for it.   It will be more mobile.


I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?


No, because that requires Perseverance to backtrack.

Interesting.

But why backtrack? Perseverance doesn't have a way to record the location where she took a sample? The only way to know where it was collected is by leaving it at the collection site?

How else is it going to leave samples in one place without back tracking?

Err ... just moving forward? Drive, collect, store, then deploy all samples in one place and move on.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 06:12 pm

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.


They were owed no explanation nor were they to expect immediate release.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: LouScheffer on 02/23/2021 06:13 pm
How else is it going to leave samples in one place without back tracking?
Well, it could keep all the samples until the end of mission, or until the pickup craft arrives.  However, if the rover dies at any time, the samples inside are inaccessible and lost.   So that's too risky.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: vjkane on 02/23/2021 06:16 pm


Thank you very much for the answers. But I can't imagine how impractical it would be to send another Rover to follow the same path made by Perseverance just to collect the samples.

not impractical because the retrieval rover will be designed for it.   It will be more mobile.


I am not saying that this cannot be the plan, but does it not seem much more practical for Perseverance to leave all the samples in one place, and the return mission to land near that place?


No, because that requires Perseverance to backtrack.
Don't forget that ~13 sample tubes have to be left on Mars.  Percy carries that many more tubes than the MAV will be able to return.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: ugordan on 02/23/2021 06:34 pm

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.


They were owed no explanation nor were they to expect immediate release.

I read somewhere that Perseverance, like Curiosity is required* to release engineering camera images as soon as possible. For science camera images the period is within 24 hours. I remember that sort of thing (data release policy) being laid out in some type of document, but can't remember which one anymore.

Is the above statement incorrect?
Not being argumentative, just really wish to understand this.

* Now that I think about it, it might have been the mission data release policy commitment and any breaches of that policy by the Mission could lead to negative "points" when and if a mission extension is proposed, other than that not sure if anything adverse happens.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 02/23/2021 06:34 pm
 What's the priority? If discoveries tend to lead Perseverance on a hundred km journey, will sample stashing be a factor in deciding that? Ten years of operations could leave a pretty wide area for a retriever to cover.
 Or is that to be decided depending on what they find? Wait until the retrieval phase is well along and Percy has stashed a bunch of candidates to decide which stashes they go after?
 It seems like detailed retrieval plans right now would be pretty iffy, not knowing the exact capabilities of the rest of the hardware.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 06:36 pm
Don't forget that ~13 sample tubes have to be left on Mars.  Percy carries that many more tubes than the MAV will be able to return.

Aren't some of these essentially blanks that would not be used for sample collection? I'll admit that I nodded off during one presentation and didn't get everything, but my impression is that there are a few tubes that would not/could not be used for sampling, although I don't know why.

I think they also have to plan that some tubes may not seal correctly, so they would have to be discarded. Sample collection (and the mechanisms) are remarkably complex. I've listened to some of this stuff for hours and still don't understand it.

Somewhere upthread I think I posted an image of all the different sample types that they want to collect. It might be worth somebody finding that image and reposting it.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 06:37 pm
What's the priority? If discoveries tend to lead Perseverance on a hundred km journey, will sample stashing be a factor in deciding that? Ten years of operations could leave a pretty wide area for a retriever to cover.

I'm pretty sure that their plan is to do all sample collecting during the 2-year primary mission. But that plan can be altered based upon what happens during the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 06:41 pm

Err ... just moving forward? Drive, collect, store, then deploy all samples in one place and move on.

Back tracking does not mean going in reverse, it means going over the same path/areas you have been before. 


It isn't sample collecting isn't just a single task that is completed at a set time.   It will always be collecting samples, it just needs to drop some periodically so that all the eggs are not in one basket

Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Jim on 02/23/2021 06:43 pm

Now that is unnecessary.    The unexplained delay was not "illusory"; it occurred in the real world of the 1 billion users on the internet, and 330 million US taxpayers and the community of space/Mars enthusiasts.


They were owed no explanation nor were they to expect immediate release.

I read somewhere that Perseverance, like Curiosity is required to release engineering camera images as soon as possible. For science camera images the period is within 24 hours. I remember that sort of thing (data release policy) being laid out in some type of document, but can't remember which one anymore.

Is the above statement incorrect?
Not being argumentative, just really wish to understand this.

never heard of such a policy
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Nomadd on 02/23/2021 06:44 pm
What's the priority? If discoveries tend to lead Perseverance on a hundred km journey, will sample stashing be a factor in deciding that? Ten years of operations could leave a pretty wide area for a retriever to cover.

I'm pretty sure that their plan is to do all sample collecting during the 2-year primary mission. But that plan can be altered based upon what happens during the mission.
I hope so. It would seriously suck to find something extraordinary six years in with no ability to stick it in a tube for shipping.
 Any chance of the retrieval guy to take it's own sample if they identify something special that Percy can't pack for any reason?
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Skyway on 02/23/2021 06:47 pm

Err ... just moving forward? Drive, collect, store, then deploy all samples in one place and move on.

Back tracking does not mean going in reverse

Well, I never said that, but ok. Good thing we have the same understanding of the term.  :)

...it means going over the same path/areas you have been before. 


It isn't sample collecting isn't just a single task that is completed at a set time.   It will always be collecting samples, it just needs to drop some periodically so that all the eggs are not in one basket

My question was: It's not more practical to collect a lot of samples in the 2 years planned for the mission, and then drop it all in one place?

But it has already been explained here very clearly that this is not recommended. I believe that as strange as it may seem, the collection mission will follow the same path as Perseverance.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Star One on 02/23/2021 06:47 pm
Scott Manley’s video on the landing:

https://youtu.be/mfgzTfw_J6o
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 06:58 pm
Any chance of the retrieval guy to take it's own sample if they identify something special that Percy can't pack for any reason?

The fetch rover has to avoid mission creep. It needs to stay focused on collecting samples. There is concern by some within the Mars community that some other people will try to put instruments on the fetch rover, complicating it.

I believe (and I'm too lazy to look up) that there is a requirement to collect an atmosphere sample and Perseverance is not equipped to do this. So that will have to be done with the lander.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 06:59 pm
Okay, I found my previous image. Sharing it again here. I don't know what "blank" means in this context.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: kdhilliard on 02/23/2021 07:03 pm
Don't forget that ~13 sample tubes have to be left on Mars.  Percy carries that many more tubes than the MAV will be able to return.
Aren't some of these essentially blanks that would not be used for sample collection? ...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/as-perseverance-approaches-mars-scientists-debate-its-sampling-strategy/
Scientific American; February 15, 2021:
Quote
Perseverance carries 43 sample tubes; five of those are “witness tubes” exposed to Mars’ environment to spot any Earthly contaminants that may seep from the rover during sample collection. That leaves 38 tubes intended to hold carefully chosen portions of Mars for years on end as they await eventual retrieval.

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/spacecraft/rover/sample-handling/
NASA; Mars 2020; Sample Handling:
Quote
Witness Tubes

Perseverance must meet extraordinary cleanliness requirements. These measures are in place to avoid contaminating Martian samples with terrestrial contaminants that may inadvertently be brought from Earth. Strict rules limit the amount of inorganic, organic and biological materials from Earth in the rover and its sample handling system.

Perseverance carries five "witness tubes" along with sample collection tubes. The witness tubes are similar to the sample tubes except they are pre-loaded with a variety of witness materials that can capture molecular and particulate contaminants, such as:

    gases that may be released, or "outgassed," from different materials on the rover;
    chemical remnants from the firing of the landing propulsion system;
    any other Earthly organic or inorganic material that may have arrived on Mars with the rover.

One at a time, the witness tubes will be opened on the Martian surface to "witness" the ambient environment near sample collection sites. They are exposed to the local environment where samples are collected and they go through the motions of drilling and other movements that the sample containers experience. The witness tubes do not, however, collect soil or rock samples. The witness tubes will also be sealed and cached like the actual Mars samples.

In the future, if the Perseverance samples are returned to Earth for analysis, the witness tubes will show whether Earth contaminants were present during sample collection. This will help scientists tell which materials in the Martian materials may actually be of Earth origin.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Blackstar on 02/23/2021 07:14 pm
Just wanted to share this for reference.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/710/706505.pdf

The mission costs $2,725,800,000. That includes a $360 million cost overrun. According to the GAO, that exceeded a 15% cost growth trigger that is imposed on major programs. (I don't know what the original approved cost of the mission was, but it was probably about $2.35 billion).

I'm also including a slide that has the original planetary science decadal survey recommendation that led to this mission, recommending that the mission not exceed $2.5 billion in 2015 dollars. I think the decadal members probably would not complain about the final cost of the mission.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: Steve G on 02/23/2021 07:38 pm
The last I heard, they are planning an initial cache. They won't be dropping off all the samples, keeping some of the earlier samples, and then have a secondary cache into the extended mission, which would be the chosen cache of the sample return rover to collect.
Title: Re: NASA - Perseverance, Mars 2020 Rover : Discussion
Post by: edzieba on 02/23/2021 07:41 pm
On the 'phantom parachute chaser': frame EBF_0001_0667022754_544ECV_N0010052EDLC00001_0010LUJ01 is now on the raw images site (and attached here) without rescaling and video compression artefacts. It may be a wisp of cloud, a puff of gas from the mortar, or a plume of dust from the chute unfurling and snapping open, or a lens flare, but it sure isn't a solid object.

The Skycrane does not have its own navigation logic (the LVS is attached to Perseverence). It tilts to divert, then [...]
So it's better looking at skycrane as an object jettisoned by the rover, like backshell or heatshield, rather than something which flies away on its own, right?
It has its own flight logic and software: motor control, IMU, ability to stabilise and divert independently, at lease one downward-facing camera (though for diagnsotics purposes only, LVSCam is quite