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Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => Other US Launchers => Topic started by: the_roche_lobe on 02/09/2010 05:22 am

Title: The future of the AJ10
Post by: the_roche_lobe on 02/09/2010 05:22 am
Delta II - going
Delta IV 'lite' - stillborn
Shuttle - going
Constellation - going/gone

Is there a future for the long running AJ10 family?
Is it even still in production?

P
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Jim on 02/09/2010 08:45 am
Delta II - going
Delta IV 'lite' - stillborn
Shuttle - going
Constellation - going/gone

Is there a future for the long running AJ10 family?
Is it even still in production?


Production for Delta II ended years ago.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Downix on 02/09/2010 10:14 am
Delta II - going
Delta IV 'lite' - stillborn
Shuttle - going
Constellation - going/gone

Is there a future for the long running AJ10 family?
Is it even still in production?

P

It is still available to purchase.  Its systems are such that I would not be surprised if LM, Boeing or SNC utilizes it in their crew vehicle.  I know if I was looking at crew vehicle development it would be at the top of my list.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: kevin-rf on 02/09/2010 01:17 pm
It is still available to purchase.  Its systems are such that I would not be surprised if LM, Boeing or SNC utilizes it in their crew vehicle.  I know if I was looking at crew vehicle development it would be at the top of my list.

With 9 solids? Look at the January 1997 fireball... The AJ-10 on top of an Atlas or Delta-IV might make more sense.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Downix on 02/10/2010 02:34 am
It is still available to purchase.  Its systems are such that I would not be surprised if LM, Boeing or SNC utilizes it in their crew vehicle.  I know if I was looking at crew vehicle development it would be at the top of my list.

With 9 solids? Look at the January 1997 fireball... The AJ-10 on top of an Atlas or Delta-IV might make more sense.
huh??
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Nick L. on 02/10/2010 04:26 pm
It is still available to purchase.  Its systems are such that I would not be surprised if LM, Boeing or SNC utilizes it in their crew vehicle.  I know if I was looking at crew vehicle development it would be at the top of my list.

With 9 solids? Look at the January 1997 fireball... The AJ-10 on top of an Atlas or Delta-IV might make more sense.

Kevin, I think he's talking about the AJ10 engine, not Delta II.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Downix on 02/10/2010 04:43 pm
It is still available to purchase.  Its systems are such that I would not be surprised if LM, Boeing or SNC utilizes it in their crew vehicle.  I know if I was looking at crew vehicle development it would be at the top of my list.

With 9 solids? Look at the January 1997 fireball... The AJ-10 on top of an Atlas or Delta-IV might make more sense.

Kevin, I think he's talking about the AJ10 engine, not Delta II.
That is what I took it as, hence why the "Huh?"
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: kevin-rf on 02/10/2010 06:30 pm
My miss read, I thought you ment you would start with the Delta II.

I agree the AJ-10 would be excellent. It has a history that dates back further than the RL-10.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/10/2010 07:24 pm
OSC are interested in having a relight-capable upper stage for Taurus-II.  Aerojet have offered AJ-10.  I also suspect that AJ-10 may find its way into at least one (Lockheed's) commercial crew vehicle proposal.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Downix on 02/11/2010 08:05 pm
Is there a future for the long running AJ10 family?
Is it even still in production?

A version of the AJ10 powers the Shuttle orbiter OMS units.  This engine is being further developed to power the Orion service module. 

Oh wait.  There isn't going to be an Orion service module. 

Never mind. 

 - Ed Kyle
But there will be a Dream Chaser, Boeing/Bigelow's "Orion Lite" and whatever LM is working on, all of which are prime canidates for the AJ-10.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Patchouli on 02/12/2010 01:22 am
Is there a future for the long running AJ10 family?
Is it even still in production?

A version of the AJ10 powers the Shuttle orbiter OMS units.  This engine is being further developed to power the Orion service module. 

Oh wait.  There isn't going to be an Orion service module. 

Never mind. 

 - Ed Kyle
But there will be a Dream Chaser, Boeing/Bigelow's "Orion Lite" and whatever LM is working on, all of which are prime canidates for the AJ-10.

Doesn't Dreamchaser have an OMS based off SS1/SS2's propulsion system?

But I can see the AJ10 having a future on a lunar variant of Dragon or a commercial cargo tug.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Downix on 02/12/2010 01:00 pm
Does anyone have a good manual of the AJ-10, now I am curious to see what it can do.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/12/2010 01:02 pm
But I can see the AJ10 having a future on a lunar variant of Dragon or a commercial cargo tug.

Wouldn't Kestrel be more likely?
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Danderman on 02/12/2010 03:10 pm
But I can see the AJ10 having a future on a lunar variant of Dragon or a commercial cargo tug.

Wouldn't Kestrel be more likely?

AFAIK, Kestral is a kerolox system, not good for long term use.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/12/2010 03:15 pm
AFAIK, Kestral is a kerolox system, not good for long term use.

At L1/L2 and with good insulation that might not be too much of a problem. Or else with a kerosene/peroxide variant. Not that AJ-10 would not be great, but SpaceX seems to prefer to build things themselves.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/15/2010 07:59 pm
AFAIK, Kestral is a kerolox system, not good for long term use.

At L1/L2 and with good insulation that might not be too much of a problem. Or else with a kerosene/peroxide variant. Not that AJ-10 would not be great, but SpaceX seems to prefer to build things themselves.
Only if they can't get a good enough price from outside, which happens a lot when lots of people are used to juicy fat-margin contracts.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Patchouli on 02/15/2010 10:27 pm
The AJ10 could still find use by Orbital on future versions of Cygnus.
A crewed variant could make use of a higher thrust OMS system and they too could become interested in a lunar capable vehicle.
OSC seems to prefer to not reinvent something if it can be bought off the shelf.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/16/2010 09:16 am
AJ-10 is my favourite for near-term storable propulsion, but a kerosene/peroxide Merlin and Kestrel would be great too. If you wanted to use this for landers you might want a pump-fed version anyway. If you're going to develop a new engine, you may as well go with something non-toxic.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Vahe231991 on 05/17/2021 03:37 am
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.

Link:
https://newatlas.com/nasa-test-fire-service-module-engine/60944/
https://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/orion-mpcv.htm
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Jim on 05/17/2021 11:47 am
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.


No, it had no active service module and hence no AJ10
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: MATTBLAK on 05/17/2021 12:02 pm
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.


No, it had no active service module and hence no AJ10
I know, right?! People making authoritative statements such as that the 2014 flight's Service Module had an engine - such a thing would be easy to look up and confirm.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Vahe231991 on 02/04/2022 02:14 am
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.


No, it had no active service module and hence no AJ10
I know, right?! People making authoritative statements such as that the 2014 flight's Service Module had an engine - such a thing would be easy to look up and confirm.
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Skyrocket on 02/04/2022 06:25 am
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.


No, it had no active service module and hence no AJ10
I know, right?! People making authoritative statements such as that the 2014 flight's Service Module had an engine - such a thing would be easy to look up and confirm.
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

Here is a photo showing the Artemis-1 Orion spacecraft with the AJ10-90 engine. It is the first Orion capsule with this engine.
The Orion EFT-1 flight did not have a service module, hence no AJ10 engine
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Jim on 02/04/2022 03:03 pm
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

There was no active service module or AJ10 on EFT-1.

Look at the date of the article you linked

Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Vahe231991 on 02/04/2022 03:29 pm
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

There was no active service module or AJ10 on EFT-1.

Look at the date of the article you linked
This article doesn't mention the EFT-1 mission, it only emphasizes that the Orion space modules being earmarked for the Artemis missions have been or are being fitted with the AJ10.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: DanClemmensen on 02/04/2022 03:33 pm
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

There was no active service module or AJ10 on EFT-1.

Look at the date of the article you linked
This article doesn't mention the EFT-1 mission, it only emphasizes that the Orion space modules being earmarked for the Artemis missions have been or are being fitted with the AJ10.
Please read the Wikipedia article for an overview, and then read that article's references. EFT-1 did not have a real service module.
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_Flight_Test-1
Also, don't argue with Jim. He was there. You were not.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: jbenton on 02/04/2022 03:58 pm
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

There was no active service module or AJ10 on EFT-1.

Look at the date of the article you linked
This article doesn't mention the EFT-1 mission, it only emphasizes that the Orion space modules being earmarked for the Artemis missions have been or are being fitted with the AJ10.

Though you're right that the Orion CSM will use AJ10, they're mentioning EFT-1 because you described it as "the Orion spacecraft's first flight."

The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion. Therefore, the AJ10 is still in use even though the Delta II that used an AJ10 as the rocket motor for the second stage was retired in 2018.

Link:
https://newatlas.com/nasa-test-fire-service-module-engine/60944/
https://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/orion-mpcv.htm
Emphasis mine.

That flight only had the capsule with no service module. Artemis 1 will be the first launch with the whole CSM stack, including the AJ10. The articles you linked say that Orion will use AJ10 in flight they do not say that it was used on EFT-1. I don't think that you're asserting that it was used in EFT-1, but the way you phrased it, you seemed to imply that it was used in EFT-1.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: edkyle99 on 02/04/2022 04:24 pm
Aren't the Orion AJ10 engines repurposed from Shuttle orbiters?  There are a limited number available I suspect.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Jim on 02/04/2022 04:34 pm
As explained here (https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/lockheed-martin-organizations/orions-european-service-module-makes-its-debut-at-kennedy-space-center/), the Orion's service module is powered by one AJ10-190 engine, which generates 5,778 pounds of thrust.

There was no active service module or AJ10 on EFT-1.

Look at the date of the article you linked
This article doesn't mention the EFT-1 mission, it only emphasizes that the Orion space modules being earmarked for the Artemis missions have been or are being fitted with the AJ10.

It doesn't have to mention EFT-1.  Look at the title of the article "ORIONíS EUROPEAN SERVICE MODULE MAKES ITS DEBUT AT KENNEDY SPACE CENTER"  It means the first one. 
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Jim on 02/04/2022 04:37 pm
The Orion spacecraft that was first launched on December 5, 2014, relies on the AJ10 for primary propulsion.


This specific sentence is wrong or at the least misleading. 

The Orion spacecraft that was launched on December 5, 2014 did not rely on the AJ10 for primary propulsion.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: tadaniels on 02/04/2022 04:38 pm
Aren't the Orion AJ10 engines repurposed from Shuttle orbiters?  There are a limited number available I suspect.

 - Ed Kyle

My understanding is that they are re-purposed STS OMS engines.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Hog on 02/09/2022 07:06 pm
Aren't the Orion AJ10 engines repurposed from Shuttle orbiters?  There are a limited number available I suspect.

 - Ed Kyle

My understanding is that they are re-purposed STS OMS engines.
They are, and NASA put out an RFI back in 2019 for new ones.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45002.0
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Vahe231991 on 02/09/2022 08:56 pm
Are there any photos of the AJ10 engines being incorporated into Orion space capsule earmarked for the Artemis II mission, since the space capsule for the Artemis III mission is still under construction?
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Kaputnik on 02/10/2022 07:46 pm
So are new AJ10s available?
If not, what is the current stock of ex-Shuttle engines?

Anybody else here old enough to remember the original methalox design for Orion... *sigh*...
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/10/2022 08:01 pm
So are new AJ10s available?
If not, what is the current stock of ex-Shuttle engines?

Anybody else here old enough to remember the original methalox design for Orion... *sigh*...
The AJ10 production modernization and restart programme is underway. A new modernized and additively manufactured version is in development to replace all legacy AJ10 versions and variants. Also AJ10 is undergoing an incremental upgrades testing programme like RS-25.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Hog on 02/10/2022 09:36 pm
So are new AJ10s available?
If not, what is the current stock of ex-Shuttle engines?

Anybody else here old enough to remember the original methalox design for Orion... *sigh*...
There was an article that detailed all the specifics, I looked but couldn't find it.  It was dated from when one was hotfired.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: hektor on 02/10/2022 10:02 pm
Are there any photos of the AJ10 engines being incorporated into Orion space capsule earmarked for the Artemis II mission, since the space capsule for the Artemis III mission is still under construction?

There is only one engine per Orion. The engine was already installed - in the case of Artemis II - on the second European Service Module which was delivered to KSC a few month ago. Likewise for Artemis III an AJ10 has been shipped or should be shipped to Germany for the same purpose. Ditto for Artemis IV, etc.

Airbus readies the no. 2 European Service Module for its crewed mission to the Moon (https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news/2021-06-airbus-readies-the-no-2-european-service-module-for-its-crewed-mission-to-the)
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: Vahe231991 on 11/17/2022 03:17 am
In the wake of the success of the first launch of the SLS, once the Orion spacecraft being used in the Artemis 1 mission approaches lunar orbit we should expect images to be released of Orion CM-002 firing the AJ10 engine to the lunar orbit insertion.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/17/2022 02:22 pm
In the wake of the success of the first launch of the SLS, once the Orion spacecraft being used in the Artemis 1 mission approaches lunar orbit we should expect images to be released of Orion CM-002 firing the AJ10 engine to the lunar orbit insertion.
AFAIU it is going to a distant retrograde orbit.
Title: Re: The future of the AJ10
Post by: DanClemmensen on 11/17/2022 02:35 pm
In the wake of the success of the first launch of the SLS, once the Orion spacecraft being used in the Artemis 1 mission approaches lunar orbit we should expect images to be released of Orion CM-002 firing the AJ10 engine to the lunar orbit insertion.
AFAIU it is going to a distant retrograde orbit.
Yes, but"distant retrograde orbit" does not convey the true strangeness of this trajectory at all. The spacecraft has two close encounters with the Moon, one when entering this orbit and one as it is leaving. The trajectory between these events is a wondrous pair of loops around the moon that do not look like ellipses at all. There is an animation at:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_1