Author Topic: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew  (Read 19824 times)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48176
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 81676
  • Likes Given: 36940
Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« on: 03/06/2020 06:35 am »
https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1235816643487354885

Quote
The group of Russian cosmonauts to fly on #CrewDragon and #Starliner to ISS by the program of seat exchange has been selected, said Pavel Vlasov, the head of Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center. Andrei Borisenko (Soyuz TMA-21, Soyuz MS-02) is one of them. https://ria.ru/amp/20200306/1568224012.html

twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1235816778145488897

Quote
No contracts or other administrative documents have been signed yet as both ships are in process of certification for the regular flights. Pavel Vlasov noted, that the Russian cosmonauts will fly on the new ships only when their safety is proved.

https://twitter.com/katlinegrey/status/1235820875301015555

Quote
The cosmonauts will not fly as pilots on the new American ships, they will have no commanding functions at all. Vlasov also said that preliminary negotiations are being held with the American side on the production of appropriate equipment for Russian cosmonauts.

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12096
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18201
  • Likes Given: 12162
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #1 on: 04/01/2020 09:24 am »
Interesting aspect in reporting: apparently the Russians will not assign their cosmonauts to fly on the CCP vehicles until these vehicles have been flown multiple times. Due to the vehicles being unproven.

https://spacenews.com/nasa-selects-astronauts-for-crew-dragon-mission/

Quote from: Jeff Foust
NASA has completed the crew for the first operational SpaceX commercial crew mission to the International Space Station, one that will not include any Russian cosmonauts after Roscosmos officials said they would not fly on what they consider an unproven vehicle.

Quote from: Jeff Foust
(Tom) Stafford said that Russian officials, who met with Stafford’s committee in Houston in December, were reticent to fly cosmonauts on what to them are unproven vehicles. “The Russian side noted that, prior to agreeing to the mixed crew plan, there needs to be successful USCV launches,” he said. “Roscosmos will consider participation after successful launches, but will not participate in the first launch of the vehicle.”


Particularly this last bolded statement is peculiar IMO. By the time the first operational launch of Crew Dragon take place, the vehicle will have flown at least twice: DM-1 and DM-2. Same for Starliner.
Makes me wonder after how many operational launches the Russians will consider Crew Dragon (or Starliner) "proven".
« Last Edit: 04/01/2020 09:28 am by woods170 »

Offline anik

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7776
  • Liked: 955
  • Likes Given: 368
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #2 on: 04/01/2020 10:44 am »
Makes me wonder after how many operational launches the Russians will consider Crew Dragon (or Starliner) "proven"

To be honest, Russians do not need to fly on U.S. spacecrafts at all. We can do Soyuz direct rotations for replace spacecrafts. We flew so in 2003-2005 when Space Shuttles were grounded.

In 2017 Sergey Krikalyov in Australia told us that the offer to change seats was originated from NASA. U.S. do not want to pay for Soyuz seats anymore, so they offered to fly Russians on their spacecrafts through barter.

Online abaddon

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3051
  • Liked: 3900
  • Likes Given: 5274
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #3 on: 04/01/2020 11:06 am »
Given the relatively low flight rate of CCP and the fact there will be two alternating vehicles, this might take a while...

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12096
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18201
  • Likes Given: 12162
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #4 on: 04/01/2020 12:19 pm »
Makes me wonder after how many operational launches the Russians will consider Crew Dragon (or Starliner) "proven"

To be honest, Russians do not need to fly on U.S. spacecrafts at all. We can do Soyuz direct rotations for replace spacecrafts. We flew so in 2003-2005 when Space Shuttles were grounded.

In 2017 Sergey Krikalyov in Australia told us that the offer to change seats was originated from NASA. U.S. do not want to pay for Soyuz seats anymore, so they offered to fly Russians on their spacecrafts through barter.

Yes, I'm aware of this.

If the Russians don't accept the NASA offer than no Russian cosmonauts will fly on CCP vehicles and no NASA/ESA/JAXA astronauts will fly on Soyuz IMO. The whole point of CCP is to no longer pay for flying on Soyuz.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2020 03:15 pm by woods170 »

Offline Alexphysics

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
  • Spain
  • Liked: 5917
  • Likes Given: 945
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #5 on: 04/01/2020 06:18 pm »
Roscosmos would regret making that decision if they end up in a Soyuz MS-10 situation. With Soyuz being the only way for cosmonauts to go to the ISS and flying only twice a year means an in flight abort will mean a gap in russian presence at the ISS. Good luck with those Soyuz boosters, make sure y'all install them properly. I hope Boeing does the same with their parachutes as well.

Offline anik

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7776
  • Liked: 955
  • Likes Given: 368
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #6 on: 04/01/2020 07:47 pm »
Roscosmos would regret making that decision if they end up in a Soyuz MS-10 situation

It could happens with any launch provider.

With Soyuz being the only way for cosmonauts to go to the ISS and flying only twice a year means an in flight abort will mean a gap in russian presence at the ISS

Why? The landing of old Soyuz will be delayed and the next new Soyuz will be launched after investigation. No problem at all.

Good luck with those Soyuz boosters, make sure y'all install them properly. I hope Boeing does the same with their parachutes as well

Even SpaceX does mistakes.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2020 07:50 pm by anik »

Offline AS_501

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 576
  • Pittsburgh, PA
  • Liked: 412
  • Likes Given: 329
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #7 on: 04/01/2020 07:56 pm »
Let's all be glad we now have some redundancy in crew access to the ISS, and emergency return to Earth.
Launches attended:  Apollo 11, ASTP (@KSC, not Baikonur!), STS-41G, STS-125, EFT-1, Starlink G4-24, Artemis 1
Notable Spacecraft Observed:  Echo 1, Skylab/S-II, Salyuts 6&7, Mir Core/Complete, HST, ISS Zarya/Present, Columbia, Challenger, Discovery, Atlantis, Dragon Demo-2, Starlink G4-14 (8 hrs. post-launch), Tiangong

Offline Hog

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2846
  • Woodstock
  • Liked: 1700
  • Likes Given: 6866
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #8 on: 04/02/2020 12:04 am »
Title more like, "Russian Commercial Crew Seat Purchases".  These seats are national assets and should be bargained with as such.

Soyuz will make for excellent tertiary redundancy in support of ISS.
Paul

Offline Alexphysics

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
  • Spain
  • Liked: 5917
  • Likes Given: 945
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #9 on: 04/02/2020 01:35 am »
Roscosmos would regret making that decision if they end up in a Soyuz MS-10 situation

It could happens with any launch provider.

With Soyuz being the only way for cosmonauts to go to the ISS and flying only twice a year means an in flight abort will mean a gap in russian presence at the ISS

Why? The landing of old Soyuz will be delayed and the next new Soyuz will be launched after investigation. No problem at all.

Good luck with those Soyuz boosters, make sure y'all install them properly. I hope Boeing does the same with their parachutes as well

Even SpaceX does mistakes.

Yes, it could happen to any launch provider, that's why it is better to have them spread out over all three vehicles. The landing of the old Soyuz can be delayed by 6 months until the next one is ready? Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?

Offline zubenelgenubi

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11179
  • Arc to Arcturus, then Spike to Spica
  • Sometimes it feels like Trantor in the time of Hari Seldon
  • Liked: 7404
  • Likes Given: 72480
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #10 on: 04/02/2020 09:08 am »
Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?
IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2020 09:09 am by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Offline Alexphysics

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
  • Spain
  • Liked: 5917
  • Likes Given: 945
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #11 on: 04/02/2020 01:09 pm »
Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?
IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days.

That was my main point... 2 Soyuz flights per year each one every 6 months or so. The old Soyuz can't wait for another 6 months until the next Soyuz if the one in the middle fails to reach the ISS. Same goes backwards if it happens to the US crew vehicles. Dismissing a deal like that is risking the program imo

Offline daedalus1

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
  • uk
  • Liked: 477
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #12 on: 04/02/2020 01:27 pm »
Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?
IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days.

That was my main point... 2 Soyuz flights per year each one every 6 months or so. The old Soyuz can't wait for another 6 months until the next Soyuz if the one in the middle fails to reach the ISS. Same goes backwards if it happens to the US crew vehicles. Dismissing a deal like that is risking the program imo

It's not the same with the U.S., they have (or will have) two different vehicles if one failed the other can pick up the slack. If Soyuz fails then there is a gap in Russian cosmonaut flights.

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12096
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 18201
  • Likes Given: 12162
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #13 on: 04/02/2020 02:17 pm »
Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?
IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days.

That was my main point... 2 Soyuz flights per year each one every 6 months or so. The old Soyuz can't wait for another 6 months until the next Soyuz if the one in the middle fails to reach the ISS. Same goes backwards if it happens to the US crew vehicles. Dismissing a deal like that is risking the program imo

In typical Russian fashion a failure of Soyuz will not result in a stand-down of six months, let alone more.
Just look at Soyuz MS-10. The stand-down was less than two months.
The previous failure with a manned Soyuz was in 1983. The famous T-10A pad abort. Stand-down: 4.5 months. And that was one of the longest stand-downs in Soyuz history.

So, previous stand-downs of the Soyuz system were pretty much all well below six months in length. Some of them as short as just 10 days.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2020 02:29 pm by woods170 »

Offline Alexphysics

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
  • Spain
  • Liked: 5917
  • Likes Given: 945
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #14 on: 04/02/2020 02:54 pm »
Can a Soyuz stay up for a year on the ISS?
IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days.

That was my main point... 2 Soyuz flights per year each one every 6 months or so. The old Soyuz can't wait for another 6 months until the next Soyuz if the one in the middle fails to reach the ISS. Same goes backwards if it happens to the US crew vehicles. Dismissing a deal like that is risking the program imo

In typical Russian fashion a failure of Soyuz will not result in a stand-down of six months, let alone more.
Just look at Soyuz MS-10. The stand-down was less than two months.
The previous failure with a manned Soyuz was in 1983. The famous T-10A pad abort. Stand-down: 4.5 months. And that was one of the longest stand-downs in Soyuz history.

So, previous stand-downs of the Soyuz system were pretty much all well below six months in length. Some of them as short as just 10 days.

Soyuz MS-11 was already ready for a December 2018 launch anyways. Unless they can speed up readiness of the next spacecraft, if they lose the attempt of going to the ISS, the spacecraft may still take months until it's ready to go. The point is not about being able to fly again the rocket but flying the next spacecraft in the line which is not something you can't easily or quickly. They better have a plan B

Online LouScheffer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3383
  • Liked: 6110
  • Likes Given: 837
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #15 on: 04/02/2020 04:51 pm »
Soyuz MS-11 was already ready for a December 2018 launch anyways. Unless they can speed up readiness of the next spacecraft, if they lose the attempt of going to the ISS, the spacecraft may still take months until it's ready to go. The point is not about being able to fly again the rocket but flying the next spacecraft in the line which is not something you can't easily or quickly. They better have a plan B
With something as technically difficult as spaceflight, and with human lives on the line, it would make sense to have 2 spacecraft ready to go at all times.  This is not just for the Russians, but for all providers.  Even in *your* spacecraft does not fail, you might be called upon, with short notice, to back up someone else's spacecraft that is out of commission.
« Last Edit: 04/04/2020 12:58 pm by LouScheffer »

Offline anik

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7776
  • Liked: 955
  • Likes Given: 368
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #16 on: 04/02/2020 04:57 pm »
The landing of the old Soyuz can be delayed by 6 months until the next one is ready?

Why 6 months? When Soyuz launches another one is on Baikonur or in the final stages of production at RSC Energia. By the way, we have now four Progress cargo ships on Baikonur.

IIRC, Soyuz lifetime docked to ISS is approximately 7 months = 210 days

Soyuz TMA-9 in 2006-2007 had 215 days. The main problem with storage of hydrogen peroxide was resolved 15 years ago by adding cooling system. Not all Soyuz systems designed to fly one year, but the work to increase duration of flight to 365 days is doing now. In the event of emergency situation with new Soyuz the old one can stay on ISS as long as it allows its systems. It is not a problem.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #17 on: 04/02/2020 07:33 pm »
Particularly this last bolded statement is peculiar IMO. By the time the first operational launch of Crew Dragon take place, the vehicle will have flown at least twice: DM-1 and DM-2. Same for Starliner.
Makes me wonder after how many operational launches the Russians will consider Crew Dragon (or Starliner) "proven".

Well, Russians usually wait many launches before accepting any LV/SV as operative. And to be frank, DM-1 was not feature complete. I would guess after 3 crewed launches would be the bare minimum for them to accept a barter.
Of course Soyuz is 142/144 on LOC and 138/144 on successful missions, so they can say they require high reliability.

Offline wannamoonbase

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Denver, CO
    • U.S. Metric Association
  • Liked: 3112
  • Likes Given: 3862
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #18 on: 04/08/2020 04:50 am »
Particularly this last bolded statement is peculiar IMO. By the time the first operational launch of Crew Dragon take place, the vehicle will have flown at least twice: DM-1 and DM-2. Same for Starliner.
Makes me wonder after how many operational launches the Russians will consider Crew Dragon (or Starliner) "proven".

Well, Russians usually wait many launches before accepting any LV/SV as operative. And to be frank, DM-1 was not feature complete. I would guess after 3 crewed launches would be the bare minimum for them to accept a barter.
Of course Soyuz is 142/144 on LOC and 138/144 on successful missions, so they can say they require high reliability.

That’s not much different than Shuttle numbers.

With out money from the west funding Soyuz we will see in a few years how the bravado stands up.
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Online FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48176
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 81676
  • Likes Given: 36940
Re: Russian Assignments for Commercial Crew
« Reply #19 on: 04/21/2021 01:14 pm »
https://twitter.com/spcplcyonline/status/1384855982984019973

Quote
Jurczyk: haven't completely given up on having Russian on Crew-3 but more likely on Crew-4.  So haven't decided who will fill that fourth seat on Crew-3 and how long Vande Hei will stay on ISS.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1