Author Topic: Failed Projects  (Read 5898 times)

Offline Tom Schmidt

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Failed Projects
« on: 07/28/2020 09:48 am »
Hello together,

i have to prepare myself for the study and want to present something about the moon flight projects. Do you know if there were some really bad and failed projects in history? if yes, could you tell me the project name or date?

Thank for support!

Offline Proponent

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #1 on: 07/28/2020 02:35 pm »
Early US lunar probes, Pioneers 0-4 in 1958-59, were at best partially successful (they never got anywhere near the moon, but Pioneer 4 was the first US shot into solar orbit).  The US's Atlas-Able unmanned lunar probes circa 1959-60 all failed.  The Soviet Union developed separate systems for manned circum-lunar flights and lunar landings.  The former, L-1, flew unmanned in the late 1960's and early 70's but never carried a man around the moon.  An L-3 lunar lander was tested in Earth orbit in the early 1970's but never carried a cosmonaut to the moon.

Circa 1960, the US Army and Air Force proposed manned lunar missions, Projects Horizon and Lunex, respectively.  They were never funded, so you can't really say they failed, though.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #2 on: 07/28/2020 04:17 pm »
Are you looking for just failed projects relating to flying to the Moon?  Or failed large engineering projects in general, to compare and contrast the successful Apollo program to?

If the latter, I'd suggest Googling the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, otherwise known as Galloping Gertie... ;)
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Online Blackstar

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #3 on: 07/28/2020 04:28 pm »
I think we should direct this young person to a thing called "Google," and encourage him to do some research for this school project.

Online racevedo88

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #4 on: 07/28/2020 04:34 pm »
Or to the discovery Channel Show "engineering Disasters"

Offline david1971

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #5 on: 07/28/2020 05:19 pm »
Way back in 2012(?) Rep. John Culberson used the graphic below.

What would an update look like?  The COTS programs would be completed, Orion is still ongoing, SLS has been introduced.  There is the followup ISS cargo, and of course commercial crew.  What else would be on the chart?
I flew on SOFIA four times.

Offline dandy_don

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #6 on: 07/28/2020 05:51 pm »
I think we should direct this young person to a thing called "Google," and encourage him to do some research for this school project.

Or we could help him out and perhaps generate an interesting discussion while we are at it?

About about the Russian N1 rocket?

Online Blackstar

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #7 on: 07/28/2020 07:55 pm »
He's a kid who is looking for help with his homework. Look at his few posts.

Offline eric z

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #8 on: 07/28/2020 08:43 pm »
 I think it's neat that young ones like Tom think enough of Nasaspaceflight.com to ask its esteemed membership
to help him- what the heck are we here for anyway? To endlessly debate SLS? {Which, ironically, may wind up on his list one day!] Google,IMHO, is not the be-all and end-all of human existence...There is no substitute for people of expertise, and the grayer the beard the better, passing on directly their accumulated wisdom to our youth!
 Tom, as a matter-of -fact, you might find a lot of cool articles on a site called "Space Review". A lot depends on what you mean by "Failed". Nova, Orion [not today's capsule-well on it's way to maybe joining the list if they don't get it together!], Dyna-soar, MOL, X-33 Venture Star, Constellation and the infamous "Stick"; none survive but most led to other things.
Check out the opening sequence of "Six-Million Dollar Man"...failures can help lead to success!
Keep asking those questions! 8)
« Last Edit: 07/28/2020 09:04 pm by eric z »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #9 on: 07/28/2020 08:53 pm »
Hello together,

i have to prepare myself for the study and want to present something about the moon flight projects. Do you know if there were some really bad and failed projects in history? if yes, could you tell me the project name or date?

Thank for support!

Surprised nobody has mentioned this list on Wikipedia, which lists the missions by date and says if they were successful or were failures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #10 on: 07/28/2020 09:04 pm »
He's a kid who is looking for help with his homework. Look at his few posts.
Or an adult on the hook for some kind of "space" presentation. I hope it's not tomorrow morning.

Informal research progression
Question
Do some research
Hmmm...develop particular questions that are proving difficult
Consult the experts
Etc.

Unfortunately, he's skipped step 2 and gone straight to "ask someone else to do my homework."

We've even had a student ask for similar help here in NSF Forum; opened a new account to do so. His TEACHER is also a member and posted here to tell him to do his own research.

I know I sound gruff, but I've been on both sides of the relationship.

(See my current avatar: I grew up from a cute baby gryphon into the eccentric, sometimes-gruff gryphon that I am today. :) )
« Last Edit: 07/28/2020 09:13 pm by zubenelgenubi »
Support your local planetarium! (COVID-panic and forward: Now more than ever.) My current avatar is saying "i wants to go uppies!" Yes, there are God-given rights. Do you wish to gainsay the Declaration of Independence?

Online TorenAltair

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #11 on: 07/28/2020 09:28 pm »
I would go for the N1 Moon project or the Proton-Zond/Soyuz Moon missions.
Or if not related to the Moon for sure the Soviet/Russian Mars programs. They landed on the Moon and on Venus, achieved that much but basically each and every Mars mission failed. At least ExoMars was already far enough away from the exploding upper stage.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2020 09:29 pm by TorenAltair »

Offline Robert.Beak

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #12 on: 08/27/2020 01:10 pm »
Hi,everyone!


Speaking of the moon race. I surf the Internet and on the space sites find this!
The plans of the Soviet designers went much further than a flight to the moon with a landing of cosmonauts. There were at least two projects for the creation of lunar bases - "Zvezda" and "Volcano". The first project began to be developed in the 1960s. The base, in addition to the very stationary building with living quarters for 12 people, included a lunar rover with a manned trailer for long-distance expeditions. It was assumed that the "Zvezda" will solve scientific problems, set up experiments, the cosmonauts will engage in detailed mapping of our natural satellite. Moreover, it was planned to establish regular flights to the moon with a change in astronaut watches.

BUT, this project was also buried under the rubble of H1: no other launch vehicle was suitable for manned flights to the moon and building a base.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #13 on: 11/14/2022 01:00 am »
I'm somewhat surprised I could not find a recent Dyna-Soar thread on this board. Anyway, I just saw this image of Dyna-Soar on an Atlas. Is this something that was known? Or is this super obscure?

Offline Jim

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #14 on: 11/14/2022 02:20 pm »
I'm somewhat surprised I could not find a recent Dyna-Soar thread on this board. Anyway, I just saw this image of Dyna-Soar on an Atlas. Is this something that was known? Or is this super obscure?

There is a photo of mockup of Dyna-Soar on Atlas Centaur (horizontal) in the Apogee book

Offline woods170

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #15 on: 11/14/2022 02:45 pm »
I'm somewhat surprised I could not find a recent Dyna-Soar thread on this board. Anyway, I just saw this image of Dyna-Soar on an Atlas. Is this something that was known? Or is this super obscure?

Rather obscure and dates back to the initial proposal rounds. But there is another mention from 2017 here: https://up-ship.com/blog/?p=35843

Offline leovinus

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #16 on: 11/14/2022 02:49 pm »
I'm somewhat surprised I could not find a recent Dyna-Soar thread on this board. Anyway, I just saw this image of Dyna-Soar on an Atlas. Is this something that was known? Or is this super obscure?
Agreed. While I have not seen that particular image, there is a similar one on page 18 "On the shoulders of Titan", Dyna-soar separating from a Titan booster.

If you mean "Dyna-Soar on Atlas", not Titan, then that is discussed e.g. "Bernard Schriever and Early US Military Spaceflight", G. Doyle, page 123 
Quote
Next, the USAF pursued the experimental single-seat recoverable prototype mentioned above, known alternatively as the X-20 and the Dyna-Soar. X-20 would have been launched atop an Atlas booster, and would have had unique (at the time) abilities to manoeuvre in orbit
as well as p162, 212 The Rise and Fall of Dyna-Soar: A History of Air Force Hypersonic R&D, 1944--1963 by Houchin.

For reference, the old threads
NSF Article (which could use some Unicode cleanup) "The story of the Dyna-Soar" by C. Bergin, 2006
The story of the Dyna-Soar
Dyna Soar Cockpit photos
X-20 Dyna Soar diagrams & images available
Martin Co. Dyna Soar, 1959
Aerospace Systems Program Highlights 1961 USAF Atlas, Thor, Titan & Minuteman et
EDIT: added one link
« Last Edit: 11/14/2022 09:14 pm by leovinus »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #17 on: 11/15/2022 03:21 pm »
Dyna-Soar program was mess in point of Launch rocket
There were several proposals to launch it
Boeing as Main contractor had own ideas like, multi stage rocket out Solid rocket cluster.
in end they settle on Atlas Centaur to launch X-20

USAF say "NO WAY" and went for Titan I, then Titan IIIC to launch the X-20

Offline octavo

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #18 on: 11/28/2022 10:17 am »
I'm somewhat surprised I could not find a recent Dyna-Soar thread on this board. Anyway, I just saw this image of Dyna-Soar on an Atlas. Is this something that was known? Or is this super obscure?

A pointless aside, but the Dyna-Soar is a stock vehicle in KSP and one of the early tutorials involves landing it on the runway, so it's familiar to most ksp players at least.

Edit: https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Dynawing
« Last Edit: 11/28/2022 10:19 am by octavo »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Failed Projects
« Reply #19 on: 11/28/2022 12:56 pm »
Many of the Dyna-Soar/X-20 launch vehicle proposals were for planned suborbital test flights to Saint Lucia and Fortaleza, Brazil.  I wonder where the Atlas Centaur fits in to that picture.   

Some proposals included use of Centaur atop various versions, developed and never developed, of Titan, including a Titan 2/Centaur in 1960 for orbital flights.  The Atlas Centaur envisioned at that time would have been a contemporary in performance I believe. 

What became Titan 3C at one point had four-segment solids, but when these were increased to five segments in 1962 it became a problem for Dyna Soar for the orbital missions.  Perhaps the Air Force was thrashing about for alternatives just before the program was cancelled in December 1963.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 11/28/2022 01:10 pm by edkyle99 »

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