Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid

[jadebenn]

This news was hidden in a tweet posted by Boeing Space:

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187115328389746688

I will provide a lightly-edited transcript of the relevant portion of the video.

Tony Castilleja: ...and let's talk about what the Space Launch System will be launching on our journey to the Moon.
Ben Donahue: We're going to be launching an integrated ascent stage and descent stage called The Lander [editor's note: I really hope that's a placeholder name] that will land by the end of 2024 that will take three crew to the South Pole of the Moon. [...] We're actively writing the proposal for NASA as we speak.

This is something I've personally anticipated for quite some time now, especially after the relevant language about utilizing the SLS appeared in the HLS solicitation, but it's nice to have confirmation.

[GWH]

I wonder how heavily involved Intuitive Machines is with it?

[whitelancer64]

I don't think you can call it "hidden" when it's something that was said at IAC.

Will be interesting to read Boeing's proposal when they release it.

[Navier–Stokes]

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320

Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

[jadebenn]

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320

Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

Is that really their design? That render's fairly old, and I would've expected something a bit larger with the lander being SLS-launched.

Granted, if they're launching on a Block 1 the Delta IV fairing imposes some pretty strict limits on sized, but still. Seems kinda on the small side.

[jadebenn]

Looks like the lander is methalox.

Intuitive Machines selected to build engines for Boeing’s Human Lander System Technology Development

[RonM]

Is that really their design? That render's fairly old, and I would've expected something a bit larger with the lander being SLS-launched.

Granted, if they're launching on a Block 1 the Delta IV fairing imposes some pretty strict limits on sized, but still. Seems kinda on the small side.

Depends on the mission details. If earlier uncrewed supply missions included a habitat module the HLS can be small.

[theinternetftw]

Looks like the lander is methalox.

Intuitive Machines selected to build engines for Boeing’s Human Lander System Technology Development

A 30-second hot fire of the engine is on youtube:

("Hot Fire #13 does not refer to there being 13 HLS engine hot fires, just that this is Intuitive's 13th hot fire campaign)

[Gliderflyer]

Looks like the lander is methalox.

Intuitive Machines selected to build engines for Boeing’s Human Lander System Technology Development

A 30-second hot fire of the engine is on youtube:

("Hot Fire #13 does not refer to there being 13 HLS engine hot fires, just that this is Intuitive's 13th hot fire campaign)

I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.

[theinternetftw]

I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.

It is absolutely based off of the Morpheus engine.  Intuitive Machines was started by former Morpheus engineers.

[Gliderflyer]

I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.

It is absolutely based off of the Morpheus engine.  Intuitive Machines was started by former Morpheus engineers.

Interesting choice. If I remember correctly, the Morpheus engine used somewhere around 30% film cooling (although I don't think they had time to optimize it). Probably won't help their performance, but it does make the engine a little simpler to build.

[Rocket Science]

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320

Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with...

[TrevorMonty]

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320

Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with...

Pressure vessel is likely to be based on Starliner along with life support.

[Rocket Science]

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320

Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with...

Pressure vessel is likely to be based on Starliner along with life support.

Makes sense since they have the tooling and use a thinner gauge material...

[ncb1397]

So, the ascent propellant is inside the hull of the descent stage similar to some of their mars lander concepts?

See 2:33 in this video.

[spacenut]

So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS. 

Can Blue Origin get a lander to the moon with New Glenn.  Reusable and far less expensive.  Even the components to LOP-G or where ever they are going to build a station. 

[jadebenn]

So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS.

If you're that confident the bid will be financially uncompetitive, then you should have nothing to worry about.

It's not like there are other costs beside launch costs that factor into bidding a lunar lander. Development of new technology is free as we all know, and there is no possibility that a two-stage SLS-launched design might be easier and cheaper to develop than a three-stage commercially-launched design, or that those cost-savings might be enough to offset the higher launch costs, especially since we're only considering SLS marginal costs.

In all seriousness, do you think Boeing is stupid? If they didn't think an SLS-launched bid was competitive they wouldn't propose it.

[spacenut]

No, they are looking for cost+ bidding.  I was an engineer for a natural gas company.  We got rid of cost+ bidding because it was far more expensive than per foot installed bidding.  I have seen it first hand. 

[jadebenn]

No, they are looking for cost+ bidding.  I was an engineer for a natural gas company.  We got rid of cost+ bidding because it was far more expensive than per foot installed bidding.  I have seen it first hand.

Well then you should be happy because this isn't a cost-plus contract and therefore NASA will not be accepting any cost-plus bids.

[su27k]

So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS. 

It may need more than two SLS, since they'll be using SLS Block 1 Cargo which can only throw 26t to TLI, this is not enough for a full lunar lander, at least not in NASA's estimate. In NASA's IP 03 scenario, a 3rd commercial launch is needed, so using a SLS doesn't buy you much.