Author Topic: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid  (Read 36697 times)

Offline jadebenn

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This news was hidden in a tweet posted by Boeing Space:

https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187115328389746688

I will provide a lightly-edited transcript of the relevant portion of the video.

Quote from: Boeing Space
Tony Castilleja: ...and let's talk about what the Space Launch System will be launching on our journey to the Moon.
Ben Donahue: We're going to be launching an integrated ascent stage and descent stage called The Lander [editor's note: I really hope that's a placeholder name] that will land by the end of 2024 that will take three crew to the South Pole of the Moon. [...] We're actively writing the proposal for NASA as we speak.

This is something I've personally anticipated for quite some time now, especially after the relevant language about utilizing the SLS appeared in the HLS solicitation, but it's nice to have confirmation.
« Last Edit: 10/24/2019 03:28 am by jadebenn »

Offline GWH

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #1 on: 10/24/2019 02:31 pm »
I wonder how heavily involved Intuitive Machines is with it?

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #2 on: 10/24/2019 02:54 pm »
I don't think you can call it "hidden" when it's something that was said at IAC.

Will be interesting to read Boeing's proposal when they release it.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
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Online Navier–Stokes

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #3 on: 10/24/2019 04:57 pm »
https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320
Quote
Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #4 on: 10/24/2019 05:40 pm »
https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320
Quote
Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019
Is that really their design? That render's fairly old, and I would've expected something a bit larger with the lander being SLS-launched.

Granted, if they're launching on a Block 1 the Delta IV fairing imposes some pretty strict limits on sized, but still. Seems kinda on the small side.

Offline jadebenn

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Offline RonM

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #6 on: 10/24/2019 07:16 pm »
Is that really their design? That render's fairly old, and I would've expected something a bit larger with the lander being SLS-launched.

Granted, if they're launching on a Block 1 the Delta IV fairing imposes some pretty strict limits on sized, but still. Seems kinda on the small side.

Depends on the mission details. If earlier uncrewed supply missions included a habitat module the HLS can be small.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #7 on: 10/24/2019 07:22 pm »
Looks like the lander is methalox.

Intuitive Machines selected to build engines for Boeing’s Human Lander System Technology Development

A 30-second hot fire of the engine is on youtube:

("Hot Fire #13 does not refer to there being 13 HLS engine hot fires, just that this is Intuitive's 13th hot fire campaign)

« Last Edit: 10/24/2019 07:24 pm by theinternetftw »

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #8 on: 10/24/2019 11:03 pm »
Looks like the lander is methalox.

Intuitive Machines selected to build engines for Boeing’s Human Lander System Technology Development

A 30-second hot fire of the engine is on youtube:

("Hot Fire #13 does not refer to there being 13 HLS engine hot fires, just that this is Intuitive's 13th hot fire campaign)


I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.
I tried it at home

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #9 on: 10/24/2019 11:14 pm »
I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.

It is absolutely based off of the Morpheus engine.  Intuitive Machines was started by former Morpheus engineers.

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #10 on: 10/24/2019 11:32 pm »
I wonder if it is based off the Morpheus engine, it looks like they are using Armadillo levels of film cooling.

It is absolutely based off of the Morpheus engine.  Intuitive Machines was started by former Morpheus engineers.
Interesting choice. If I remember correctly, the Morpheus engine used somewhere around 30% film cooling (although I don't think they had time to optimize it). Probably won't help their performance, but it does make the engine a little simpler to build.
I tried it at home

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #11 on: 10/25/2019 12:58 am »
https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320
Quote
Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019
That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with... ;D
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #12 on: 10/25/2019 05:42 pm »
https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320
Quote
Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019
That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with... ;D
Pressure vessel is likely to be based on Starliner along with life support.


Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #13 on: 10/25/2019 06:23 pm »
https://twitter.com/BoeingSpace/status/1187398403694776320
Quote
Our sights are set on the Moon.
We’ve learned a lot from operating @Space_Station and are applying that to our lunar lander concept for the #Artemis mission. #IAC2019
That ascent stage looks a bit like some of the Dragon based landers we came up with... ;D
Pressure vessel is likely to be based on Starliner along with life support.
Makes sense since they have the tooling and use a thinner gauge material...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #14 on: 10/25/2019 06:35 pm »
So, the ascent propellant is inside the hull of the descent stage similar to some of their mars lander concepts?

See 2:33 in this video.


Offline spacenut

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #15 on: 10/25/2019 06:42 pm »
So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS. 

Can Blue Origin get a lander to the moon with New Glenn.  Reusable and far less expensive.  Even the components to LOP-G or where ever they are going to build a station. 

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #16 on: 10/25/2019 08:23 pm »
So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS.
If you're that confident the bid will be financially uncompetitive, then you should have nothing to worry about.

It's not like there are other costs beside launch costs that factor into bidding a lunar lander. Development of new technology is free as we all know, and there is no possibility that a two-stage SLS-launched design might be easier and cheaper to develop than a three-stage commercially-launched design, or that those cost-savings might be enough to offset the higher launch costs, especially since we're only considering SLS marginal costs. ::)

In all seriousness, do you think Boeing is stupid? If they didn't think an SLS-launched bid was competitive they wouldn't propose it.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #17 on: 10/25/2019 08:50 pm »
No, they are looking for cost+ bidding.  I was an engineer for a natural gas company.  We got rid of cost+ bidding because it was far more expensive than per foot installed bidding.  I have seen it first hand. 

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #18 on: 10/25/2019 08:52 pm »
No, they are looking for cost+ bidding.  I was an engineer for a natural gas company.  We got rid of cost+ bidding because it was far more expensive than per foot installed bidding.  I have seen it first hand.
Well then you should be happy because this isn't a cost-plus contract and therefore NASA will not be accepting any cost-plus bids.

Offline su27k

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #19 on: 10/26/2019 02:35 am »
So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS. 

It may need more than two SLS, since they'll be using SLS Block 1 Cargo which can only throw 26t to TLI, this is not enough for a full lunar lander, at least not in NASA's estimate. In NASA's IP 03 scenario, a 3rd commercial launch is needed, so using a SLS doesn't buy you much.

Tags: Boeing NASA SLS HLS lander 
 

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