Author Topic: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?  (Read 11341 times)

Online Orbiter

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If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« on: 09/26/2009 02:48 pm »
If the shuttle program gets more missions added instead of the current schedule being stretched out, I have a few questions as followed.

1) What would fly on these missions? Obviously MPLM missions but they cant all be MPLM supply missions can they?
2) Would STS-133 still leave the MPLM up on the space station or would the real last shuttle mission leave it up there?
3) What about another Hubble mission? Although I think this might be a dumb question, but can't we retrieve Hubble or service it to continue its lifespan?

Thanks!

Orbiter
« Last Edit: 09/26/2009 02:50 pm by Orbiter »
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Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #1 on: 09/26/2009 03:14 pm »
They would only be ISS missions and it only be MPLM's or ELC's

Offline robertross

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #2 on: 09/26/2009 03:16 pm »
If the shuttle program gets more missions added instead of the current schedule being stretched out, I have a few questions as followed.

1) What would fly on these missions? Obviously MPLM missions but they cant all be MPLM supply missions can they?
Yes they can. The MPLM provides the added downmass capability required. They can also fly some ORUs on carrier panels in the cargo bay, like radiator panels, ATA, NTA, and so on. Added upmass (or better said: volume) makes better use of other cargo supply craft (ATV, HTV, Progress) that in some cases have cargo that has little mass but takes up precious volume (clothing).

Quote
2) Would STS-133 still leave the MPLM up on the space station or would the real last shuttle mission leave it up there?
If they do decide to extend, anything is possible. best to leave as is for now though.

Quote
3) What about another Hubble mission? Although I think this might be a dumb question, but can't we retrieve Hubble or service it to continue its lifespan?
Would never happen with shuttle again I'm afraid, but I don't mind. We were lucky with STS-125's mission.

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #3 on: 09/26/2009 03:54 pm »
Thank you Jim, robertross, and rdale for the replies!

But the last ELC goes up on 133, and there will only be 1 MPLM (as Raffaello is being modified to a PLM, and Donatello isn't flight certified) post-133 if there is an extension. Also, another Hubble mission would be interesting as the James Webb Space Telescope isn't to fly until 2014 (pending schedule of course) and doesn't even have all the equipment Hubble has. 125 did wonders to Hubble too.
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Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #4 on: 09/26/2009 04:27 pm »
I don't see another Shuttle HST mission: There are no new science instruments in development or planning. Gyros, batteries ... are new and good for at least 5 years. Everything can break everyday, but the odds are good HST will do good science beyond 2015.

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

And no, I don't see an Orion service mission.

Hubble goes as long as it goes and will likely be deorbited by a robotic craft.

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Offline Skylon

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #5 on: 09/26/2009 08:02 pm »
I don't see another Shuttle HST mission: There are no new science instruments in development or planning. Gyros, batteries ... are new and good for at least 5 years. Everything can break everyday, but the odds are good HST will do good science beyond 2015.

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

And no, I don't see an Orion service mission.

Hubble goes as long as it goes and will likely be deorbited by a robotic craft.

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The closest I could imagine to an Orion flight to Hubble would be if an Orion mission docked a deorbit module to it (something like the ASTP Docking Module, only with propellant). But a robotic option seems more likely (and economical).

Further, I suspect the HST program has no money to really build any new hardware, past deorbit hardware.

Offline Zpoxy

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #6 on: 09/27/2009 12:37 am »

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

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A waste? Why? Wouldn't you like to see Hubble take a spot in the Smithsonian? I sure would. Sometimes things have more value than the dollars and cents that are actually spent on them.

The current solar arrays were installed by an EVA crew, they could be removed and tossed overboard as one of the original flexible arrays was. Or better yet they could be stowed in the payload bay for return, if their original deployment mechanisms would allow for it.

Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #7 on: 09/27/2009 01:43 am »

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

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A waste? Why?

Because the shuttle would be empty for the flight to retrieve, which would be a huge waste of money.

The 100's of millions of dollars for the flight would be better spent on a real science mission

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #8 on: 09/27/2009 01:46 am »

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

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A waste? Why?

Because the shuttle would be empty for the flight to retrieve, which would be a huge waste of money.

The 100's of millions of dollars for the flight would be better spent on a real science mission

Agreed, like SpaceLAB and SpaceHAB. But seeing as we don't have spaceHAB flights anymore ISS Supply is the best option.
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Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #9 on: 09/27/2009 01:47 am »

Bringing HST back would be a waste of a mission, plus you have to remove solar arrays etc. before to fit into the cargo bay.

Analyst

A waste? Why?

Because the shuttle would be empty for the flight to retrieve, which would be a huge waste of money.

The 100's of millions of dollars for the flight would be better spent on a real science mission

Agreed, like SpaceLAB and SpaceHAB. But seeing as we don't have spaceHAB flights anymore ISS Supply is the best option.

I didn't mean a shuttle mission but an unmanned spacecraft

Offline nathan.moeller

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #10 on: 09/27/2009 02:05 am »
If the shuttle program gets more missions added instead of the current schedule being stretched out, I have a few questions as followed.

1) What would fly on these missions? Obviously MPLM missions but they cant all be MPLM supply missions can they?
2) Would STS-133 still leave the MPLM up on the space station or would the real last shuttle mission leave it up there?
3) What about another Hubble mission? Although I think this might be a dumb question, but can't we retrieve Hubble or service it to continue its lifespan?

Thanks!

Orbiter

1.  Would probably be MPLM/ELC flights.
2.  It would probably still fly on STS-133.  The PLM will go on Unity nadir, whereas the MPLMs go on Harmony nadir, leaving the necessary port open for MPLM flights.  The ELCs are mounted on the ITS, and my guess is that hardware could be mounted on board for additional ELCs in the future (namely the port ITS segments, as four of the five planned ELCs will be on ITS starboard).
3.  I would love to see Hubble retrieved as much as the next person and if I had hundreds of millions of dollars, I'd gladly hand it over to see it come home.  Unfortunately, I can hardly see Congress and NASA funding another servicing/retrieval mission, as they don't want to fly the shuttle any more than is necessary, as you put man and machine at risk each time you fly.  So, while it would be nice, don't look for it to happen.
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Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #11 on: 09/27/2009 06:53 am »
There is a (test model of) HST at the Smithsonian. There are other parts than the solar arrays (NICMOS radiator, NOBLs) which would have to be removed during EVAs. I am not even sure all internal on orbit repairs elements are safely mounted for reentry.

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Offline psloss

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #12 on: 09/27/2009 12:25 pm »
There is a (test model of) HST at the Smithsonian. There are other parts than the solar arrays (NICMOS radiator, NOBLs) which would have to be removed during EVAs. I am not even sure all internal on orbit repairs elements are safely mounted for reentry.
It's feasible -- returning HST was the plan prior to the Columbia accident.  It's one of the many things that got changed afterwards.

Offline daver

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #13 on: 09/27/2009 01:43 pm »
They could build a new space telescope and delivered it to the Hubble location.  Deploy the new and retrieve Hubble.   

Offline psloss

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #14 on: 09/27/2009 01:48 pm »
They could build a new space telescope and delivered it to the Hubble location.  Deploy the new and retrieve Hubble.   
The expense to do the former is too high (and is probably not the only reason it wasn't done), and it's been decided retrieval isn't worth the risk.

Offline Aobrien

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #15 on: 09/27/2009 01:49 pm »

3) What about another Hubble mission? Although I think this might be a dumb question, but can't we retrieve Hubble or service it to continue its lifespan?


THe entire reason for the extension would be for the ISS. Would not do anything unrelated. It would be pointless.

I would love to see another HST mission but I can guarantee it won't happen

They could build a new space telescope and delivered it to the Hubble location.  Deploy the new and retrieve Hubble.   

Couldn't happen. You wouldn't have enough fuel to do all that.
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Offline psloss

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #16 on: 09/27/2009 02:16 pm »
They could build a new space telescope and delivered it to the Hubble location.  Deploy the new and retrieve Hubble.   

Couldn't happen. You wouldn't have enough fuel to do all that.
Probably not enough room in the payload bay, either.

Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #17 on: 09/27/2009 02:40 pm »
Probably not enough room in the payload bay, either.

??? A new one up and deployed, HST captured and returned. You don't need twice a payload bay to do it.

Btw. I am still not sure all the added new components - I named a few - are qualified for return loads. Yes, it was once planned to return HST, but this has been dropped long ago. So did they still bother with old requirements in a world with low budgets?

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Offline Aobrien

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #18 on: 09/27/2009 03:34 pm »
But the payload bay has to have enough room for the new telescope (depending on how it is deployed most likely RMS) then room for the capture mechanism for Hubble then all the latches have to be in locations that support both telescopes. I just don't think it would ever even be considered post STS-107.

Why bring Hubble down? Let it stay up there as long as it stays functional (at least 5 years if all goes as plan) then it will come down. No reason to do all the repairs and then bring it down a couple years later with it functioning correctly.
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Offline psloss

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #19 on: 09/27/2009 03:39 pm »
Probably not enough room in the payload bay, either.
??? A new one up and deployed, HST captured and returned. You don't need twice a payload bay to do it.
Not two full payload bays, just the question of one.  If it's not necessary to take up any flight support equipment to help with configuring for return, then there's room, even with an external airlock.

Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #20 on: 09/27/2009 05:18 pm »
HST did not use FSE during launch, just 3 (AFAIR) normal attach points: keel, port and starboard.

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Offline Jorge

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #21 on: 09/27/2009 05:28 pm »
They could build a new space telescope and delivered it to the Hubble location.  Deploy the new and retrieve Hubble.   

There is no way a new telescope could be built in time unless the shuttle is extended past 2015.

LEO is a lousy place for a telescope. HST went there because it was designed to be deployed and serviced by the shuttle, so it had to go to an orbit the shuttle could reach.

Even if, by some miracle, a telescope could be built in time for an extended shuttle program to deploy it, the shuttle program will *not* be around long enough to *service* it.

So why cripple the telescope by putting it in a lousy orbit if you are not going to service it anyway? Launch it on an ELV and send it to an orbit that's better for astronomy.
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Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #22 on: 09/27/2009 05:36 pm »
This exactly is the plan with JWST. Sadly there isn't a solid plan in for the other bands of the electromagnetic spectrum (UV-, X- and Gamma-Ray).

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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #23 on: 09/27/2009 05:46 pm »
The advantage of the Shuttle over unmanned spacecraft is that it has people on board.  Pick mission(s) that need people.  The mission does not have to be ISS based, it could be setting up assets for return to Moon or Mars/Phobos.

Offline Aobrien

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #24 on: 09/27/2009 07:02 pm »
Sorry but I don't see that. The reason for a shuttle extension is not so we can keep using the shuttle. It is so that America has a human launch vehicle and is able to access its own station.
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Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #25 on: 09/27/2009 07:43 pm »
  Pick mission(s) that need people.  The mission does not have to be ISS based, it could be setting up assets for return to Moon or Mars/Phobos.

Clueless post
a.  The shuttle isn't going to be around for the return to the moon or Mars/Phobos missions
b.  Setting assets doesn't mean a crew is needed.
c. There are no near term missions other than ISS that need a crew

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #26 on: 09/27/2009 11:11 pm »
  Pick mission(s) that need people.  The mission does not have to be ISS based, it could be setting up assets for return to Moon or Mars/Phobos.

incorrect post
a.  The shuttle isn't going to be around for the return to the moon or Mars/Phobos missions
b.  Setting assets doesn't mean a crew is needed.
c. There are no near term missions other than ISS that need a crew

There are pre-proposed Phobos missions that launch during President Obama's second term, 2009 + 7 = 2016
The estimated manned Orion maiden voyage is 2015 so it can easily slip too far.
A Mars Transfer Vehicle (MTV) will weight more than 20 - 25 mT so would require multiple EELV to get to LEO.  A possible design is a Sundancer with extra thick skin and cargo compartment pushed by a refuelled Centaur(s).
The manned Dragon may be available but it does not have a robot arm so it cannot assemble the MTV, too soon for the J-246 so assembly is likely to be performed by the Shuttle.  The Phobos astronaut launch could possibly also be performed by the STS.

Now how is that for a glorious final mission?

Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #27 on: 09/28/2009 12:50 am »

1.  There are pre-proposed Phobos missions that launch during President Obama's second term, 2009 + 7 = 2016

2.  A Mars Transfer Vehicle (MTV) will weight more than 20 - 25 mT so would require multiple EELV to get to LEO.  A possible design is a Sundancer with extra thick skin and cargo compartment pushed by a refuelled Centaur(s).

3.  The manned Dragon may be available but it does not have a robot arm so it cannot assemble the MTV, too soon for the J-246

4,so assembly is likely to be performed by the Shuttle.  The Phobos astronaut launch could possibly also be performed by the STS.

Now how is that for a glorious final mission?

Nothing but unsubstantiated conjecture and scifi.  Not based on reality

1.  7 years is too soon.

2.  Sundancer is not a NASA vehicle and

3.  Who says an RMS is needed?

4.  Shuttle is not going to be involved.




Offline robertross

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #28 on: 09/28/2009 05:22 pm »
Here's an interesting thought, but not sure if it is possible, let alone cost effective: If you fly an unmanned vehicle to Hubble c/w gyros, can it provide the guidance capability accurately enough? I'm thinking it can support Hubble for a few more months or years, and then when the gyros have failed (or something on the telescope) you use the spacecraft to de-orbit Hubble.


Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #29 on: 09/28/2009 05:59 pm »
Here's an interesting thought, but not sure if it is possible, let alone cost effective: If you fly an unmanned vehicle to Hubble c/w gyros, can it provide the guidance capability accurately enough? I'm thinking it can support Hubble for a few more months or years, and then when the gyros have failed (or something on the telescope) you use the spacecraft to de-orbit Hubble.



that was the plan

Offline robertross

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #30 on: 09/28/2009 08:11 pm »
Here's an interesting thought, but not sure if it is possible, let alone cost effective: If you fly an unmanned vehicle to Hubble c/w gyros, can it provide the guidance capability accurately enough? I'm thinking it can support Hubble for a few more months or years, and then when the gyros have failed (or something on the telescope) you use the spacecraft to de-orbit Hubble.


that was the plan

Perfect. Thanks Jim.

See, no need for a servicing mission using shuttle. Cameras, batteries & computers will just have to last. The biggest threat is the gyros, but if the de-orbit spacecraft can provide that capability to extend the science, then I'm fine with that; even 1-2 addtional years is a good thing.

Offline Norm Hartnett

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #31 on: 09/29/2009 02:08 am »
The prima facie reason for a shuttle extension is to close the gap in US human space flight, insure a dependable and robust resupply capability, and  to provide increased scientific payload up and down mass to support full utilization of the ISS. The SSP does not need another mission this one will be tough enough.

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Offline Lee Jay

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #32 on: 09/29/2009 02:32 am »
Here's an interesting thought, but not sure if it is possible, let alone cost effective: If you fly an unmanned vehicle to Hubble c/w gyros, can it provide the guidance capability accurately enough? I'm thinking it can support Hubble for a few more months or years, and then when the gyros have failed (or something on the telescope) you use the spacecraft to de-orbit Hubble.



that was the plan

How would this work?  How would the attached spacecraft with the gyros provide this information to Hubble's pointing systems?  Or, would it duplicate all of Hubble's pointing systems as well?  Wait, it couldn't duplicate the fine guidance sensors, so how would all of this work together?

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #33 on: 09/29/2009 03:11 am »
{snip}

2.  Sundancer is not a NASA vehicle and

3.  Who says an RMS is needed?

2. What is and is not used by NASA can change, particularly if designing a new vehicle under very heavy time pressure.

3. Getting two or more cargo payloads to rendezvous and dock with each other is at a very low TRL.

Offline MrTim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #34 on: 09/29/2009 03:45 am »
Aside from the upmass and downmass for supplies, spare parts, and science, I'd like to see the following:

1. More crew rotation via shuttle. We should provide the proper rides on the orbiter that we promised our partners instead of the bait-and-switch now planned.

2. More flight research (like the TPS DTOs we have recently seen). The orbiter is the only man-made winged vehicle to fly at those speeds and altitudes and it is simply idiotic not to be using it for the "Aeronautics" part of NASA's mission.

3. Although I'm not a Bigelow amazing people (something about inflated fabric spacecraft just seems, well, just plain wrong to me...  ;D ), I think it would be a good research project to haul an inflatable module to ISS to test the idea in a manned, long-duration way so they are no longer just theory. Perhaps one flight could haul-up and attach a modified Bigelow module, and one of the final flights could bring it back for thorough inspection and study (assuming the module could be deflated to fit back into an orbiter). Even if the module could not return home, getting it up there and into use would be good.

4. The new docking hardware for Orion could be hauled up on an orbiter, so there would not be a need to have an Orion haul it up later (simplifying the initial Orion ops).

5. Perhaps both certified MPLMs could be configured for permanent ISS usage, with one going up in 2010 for permanent berthing, and the other being used for cargo before being left on the actual final orbiter flight.

6. This is a bit of a stretch, but: because I like to see research done, I'd like to see an orbiter haul an X-38 up in 2015 (ought to be enough time to dust one off and finish it by then, and there are hundreds of billions of "stimulus" dollars floating around that our grand kids are going to pay for... better spent on some lifting body research than on some flash-in-the-pan political payoff project.) If one could not be ready for full-up manned lifeboat use by then, perhaps it could at least be deposited into orbit to test the de-orbit and land portion of the system. (I know, somebody will point to the hazard of a fuelled rocket in the payload bay and the post-Challenger declarations, but I would suggest a near final mission with a volunteer crew... the flight in a post-Columbia environment would still be safer than all the pre-Challenger flights)

Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #35 on: 09/29/2009 06:56 am »
Here's an interesting thought, but not sure if it is possible, let alone cost effective: If you fly an unmanned vehicle to Hubble c/w gyros, can it provide the guidance capability accurately enough? I'm thinking it can support Hubble for a few more months or years, and then when the gyros have failed (or something on the telescope) you use the spacecraft to de-orbit Hubble.


that was the plan

Perfect. Thanks Jim.

See, no need for a servicing mission using shuttle. Cameras, batteries & computers will just have to last. The biggest threat is the gyros, but if the de-orbit spacecraft can provide that capability to extend the science, then I'm fine with that; even 1-2 addtional years is a good thing.

On what facts do you base the claim the gyros will fail first? The last ones worked since 1999, and two were still working in 2009 (plus one (degraded) spare). There is a two and a one gyro mode possible, the first one has been used.

STIS failed after 7 years, ACS after 5, for example.

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Offline Bubbinski

Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #36 on: 09/29/2009 09:40 am »
Regarding retrieval of HST with the shuttle, would it cost more to launch a dedicated shuttle retrieval flight or to develop the robotic spacecraft to deorbit it?  Is the robotic craft in work now?
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline Analyst

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #37 on: 09/29/2009 09:45 am »
Robotic spacecraft is way cheaper. No need to work on it now, HSTs orbit is stable at least until 2020, probably longer. Shuttle won't be arround by then.

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Offline robertross

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #38 on: 09/29/2009 06:12 pm »

See, no need for a servicing mission using shuttle. Cameras, batteries & computers will just have to last. The biggest threat is the gyros, but if the de-orbit spacecraft can provide that capability to extend the science, then I'm fine with that; even 1-2 addtional years is a good thing.

On what facts do you base the claim the gyros will fail first? The last ones worked since 1999, and two were still working in 2009 (plus one (degraded) spare). There is a two and a one gyro mode possible, the first one has been used.

STIS failed after 7 years, ACS after 5, for example.

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I don't think I said that anywhere????  (that the gyros will fail first).

I said they were the biggest threat, and that is from past history. If we started losing 1-2 instruments now, it's still no justification for a new repair mission. If there were a major malfunction, then it's a judgement call.

Offline Danderman

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #39 on: 09/29/2009 07:08 pm »
I would suggest (and have suggested) that one use of more Shuttle missions to ISS would be to retrieve the Pirs module for the purpose of ground inspection of a Russian module to re-certify the Russian segment for additional lifetime. Also, if Pirs were retrieved, it could serve as a backup to MLM if that module were to fail prior to docking with ISS.

Offline Jim

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #40 on: 09/29/2009 07:12 pm »
I would suggest (and have suggested) that one use of more Shuttle missions to ISS would be to retrieve the Pirs module for the purpose of ground inspection of a Russian module to re-certify the Russian segment for additional lifetime. Also, if Pirs were retrieved, it could serve as a backup to MLM if that module were to fail prior to docking with ISS.


That not worth the effort for the little data that it will provide.

Offline smith5se

Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #41 on: 10/01/2009 05:35 pm »
Pardon my late reply but with all the mention of the HST in here and how its not feasable money wise, nor could it fit in the payload bay, etc.  Even if it were possible to fix HST again or to retrieve it with shuttle, wouldn't they need the second launch pad for a LON, and since that launch pad is no longer the SSP pad wouldn't it still be a no go to Hubble?

Sorry for interjecting, just curious, and sorry for putting a damper on those hopes to see HST again.
My views are mine, and mine alone and DO NOT reflect that of my employer nor my place of employment.

Offline rdale

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #42 on: 10/01/2009 05:42 pm »
LON is not a "need" by any stretch. You "need" fuel, and astronauts, and hardware to do a mission. If you don't have LON, you can still go to HST. It's up to the political will of the leaders to decide the LON purpose.

Offline MBK004

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Re: If the Shuttle program gets more missions added?
« Reply #43 on: 10/01/2009 06:04 pm »
wouldn't they need the second launch pad for a LON, and since that launch pad is no longer the SSP pad wouldn't it still be a no go to Hubble?
Single-pad LON was feasible the last time around and was almost implemented if Ares I-X had not slipped on its schedule.

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