Quote from: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/30/2023 05:21 amQuoteThe challenge of fitting enough high quality instrumentation onto a spacecraft, in one photo.And that's just one lab. I think the quick response to anybody who suggests that you can do great in-situ analysis is to note that you cannot fit a cyclotron in a lander.
QuoteThe challenge of fitting enough high quality instrumentation onto a spacecraft, in one photo.
The challenge of fitting enough high quality instrumentation onto a spacecraft, in one photo.
And that, alas, will remain the case until there is some kind of serious, permanent base on the planetary bodies in question - and I mean, something that looks at least like one of the reasonably robust Antarctic bases. Which is at least a plausible
Quote from: Blackstar on 10/01/2023 03:43 pmQuote from: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/30/2023 05:21 amQuoteThe challenge of fitting enough high quality instrumentation onto a spacecraft, in one photo.And that's just one lab. I think the quick response to anybody who suggests that you can do great in-situ analysis is to note that you cannot fit a cyclotron in a lander.Good point. Here is a lightweight and compact cyclotron that masses a mere 7.5 tonnes, assuming you could drop the 56 tonnes of shielding for this application.
Quote from: LouScheffer on 10/01/2023 04:37 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 10/01/2023 03:43 pmQuote from: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/30/2023 05:21 amQuoteThe challenge of fitting enough high quality instrumentation onto a spacecraft, in one photo.And that's just one lab. I think the quick response to anybody who suggests that you can do great in-situ analysis is to note that you cannot fit a cyclotron in a lander.Good point. Here is a lightweight and compact cyclotron that masses a mere 7.5 tonnes, assuming you could drop the 56 tonnes of shielding for this application.In theory the compact Cyclontron mention by @LouScheffer could be reconfigured into a Big Shiny lander, replacing everything above the propellant tanks except for the outer hull. Maybe the 1 meter thick polyethylene internal cladding is adequate shielding for incoming space radiation and outgoing radiation from the Cyclotron. If not more cladding could be added.As long as someone is willing to fund adapting the compact Cyclotron into a large space vehicle. There will likely be no lack of customers who can get many results in-situ sooner instead of the hassle of transporting minuscule amount of samples back to Earth for allocation to various labs at extremely high cost and long delay.Of course a few more big shiny lander will be needed to provided power, storage & accommodations to support operating a Cyclotron in-situ.It is the cost tradeoff between expensive and complex sample return missions versus sending adequate in-situ sample analysis capability. The cost tradeoff will change with the introduction of cheap heavy lift launchers.
It is the cost tradeoff between expensive and complex sample return missions versus sending adequate in-situ sample analysis capability. The cost tradeoff will change with the introduction of cheap heavy lift launchers.
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 10/03/2023 04:12 pmIt is the cost tradeoff between expensive and complex sample return missions versus sending adequate in-situ sample analysis capability. The cost tradeoff will change with the introduction of cheap heavy lift launchers.No it won't. This is a silly argument. OSIRIS-REx samples are being divided up to go to multiple laboratories around the world, many equipped with different equipment worth huge amounts of money and staffed by many different people. That's never going to be replicated in situ.
Quote from: Blackstar on 10/03/2023 07:00 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 10/03/2023 04:12 pmIt is the cost tradeoff between expensive and complex sample return missions versus sending adequate in-situ sample analysis capability. The cost tradeoff will change with the introduction of cheap heavy lift launchers.No it won't. This is a silly argument. OSIRIS-REx samples are being divided up to go to multiple laboratories around the world, many equipped with different equipment worth huge amounts of money and staffed by many different people. That's never going to be replicated in situ.True that in-situ analysis will likely never be as good as the Earth Labs. However there will be a lot less Earthside analysis work if someone can do most of it much sooner in-situ with adequate sample analysis. AIUI most of the labs need their scientists putting out papers before someone else beat them to it on specific subject. Kinda hard to do analysis waiting for the samples to get to Earth while someone in-situ is sending in research papers.
I think there is a basic disconnect here. Space flight can never even approach working in a lab for several reasons:1. the amount of work and preperation that goes into working on samples and everything involved there2. There are dozens and dozens of different instruments, techniques, different approaches to study a sample. No one lab or building can contain them. If you get into different settings, filters, adjustments and add ons - hundreds if not thousands. Cyclotrons are the size of buildings too. 3. The enormous difference in space flight instruments and lab instruments. Perseverance is using the equivalent of a 90s phone processor. Everything in space needs to be tiny, light, extremely reliable, work in awful environments (high/low temps, high radiation, ect), use very small amounts of power, require no futsing, ect.Lab equipment can be as big and heavy as we want. Using piles of power. It can be finicky because it hasn't had 20 years of working out the kinks. It can require people to physically interact with it to be used. Simple things like "turn the sample around" get really complicated in space flight. Its not a money thing, its simply not possible to do in space what we do in the lab.4. Data. EVERY mission is enormously data constrained. The mars rovers work for only a couple hours per day. Even then they hold data for months at a time trying to find time to send it back. 99% of data from the voyagers is blatantly ignored. We just dont have the time/equipment to dedicate something to listening to it most of the time.Every mission has to consider what data to take and how to send it back. Even if you had magic instruments that did everything a lab could do, its not possible to send most of that information back to earth. This data issue isn't simply due to the dsn not being 100 times larger. Missions don't have the power budget to have high bit rate communication back to earth. It took new horizons years to send back all the data it took over 48 hours.5. We can fix stuff on earth. Everything that breaks in space is broken forever. We can upgrade stuff too. ORex has late 90s early 2000 technology, cause thats when it was designed. It can't be changed. Any lab can upgrade any machine it has tomorrow. So even in a magic world of infinite power, weight, complexity, ect - a mission still couldn't keep up. Spend 10 years flying somewhere and its already decades behind the curve.
The first asteroid sample collected in space by a U.S. spacecraft and brought to Earth is unveiled to the world at NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston on Wednesday, Oct. 11.The science team from NASA’s OSIRIS-REx (Origins, Spectral Interpretation, Resource Identification and Security – Regolith Explorer) mission will provide results from an initial analysis of the sample, which landed on Sunday, Sept. 24, in the Utah desert. News conference participants include:• NASA Administrator Bill Nelson• Lori Glaze, NASA Planetary Directorate Science Division Director• Dante Lauretta, OSIRIS-REx principal investigator, University of Arizona, Tucson• Francis McCubbin, OSIRIS-REx Head Astromaterials curator, NASA Johnson• Daniel Glavin, OSIRIS-REx sample analysis lead, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, GreenbeltScientists worldwide will study the bits of asteroid to gather clues about the origin of the solar system and how life may have begun on Earth.
Just a few weeks ago, we watched the #OSIRISREx capsule land on Earth. Now let's see what's inside. Watch live at Oct. 11 at 11 a.m. ET as we share our first impressions of the sample from asteroid Bennu.
NASA: "A view of the outside of the OSIRIS-REx sample collector. Sample material from asteroid Bennu can be seen on the middle right. Scientists have found evidence of both carbon and water in initial analysis of this material. The bulk of the sample is located inside."Photo: NASA/Erika Blumenfeld & Joseph Aebersold
Initial studies of the 4.5-billion-year-old asteroid Bennu sample collected in space and brought to Earth by NASA show evidence of water and high-carbon content, which together could indicate the building blocks of life on Earth may be found in the rock. NASA made the news Wednesday from its Johnson Space Center in Houston where leadership and scientists showed off the asteroid material for the first time since it landed in September.This finding was part of a preliminary assessment of NASA’s OSIRIS-REx (Origins, Spectral Interpretation, Resource Identification and Security – Regolith Explorer) science team.“The OSIRIS-REx sample is the biggest carbon-rich asteroid sample ever delivered to Earth and will help scientists investigate the origins of life on our own planet for generations to come,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson. “Almost everything we do at NASA seeks to answer questions about who we are and where we come from. NASA missions like OSIRIS-REx will improve our understanding of asteroids that could threaten Earth while giving us a glimpse into what lies beyond. The sample has made it back to Earth, but there is still so much science to come – science like we’ve never seen before.” Although more work is needed to understand the nature of the carbon compounds found, the initial discovery bodes well for future analyses of the asteroid sample. The secrets held within the rocks and dust from the asteroid will be studied for decades to come, offering insights into how our solar system was formed, how the precursor materials to life may have been seeded on Earth, and what precautions need to be taken to avoid asteroid collisions with our home planet.Bonus sample materialThe goal of the OSIRIS-REx sample collection was 60 grams of asteroid material. Curation experts at NASA Johnson, working in new clean rooms built especially for the mission, have spent 10 days so far carefully disassembling the sample return hardware to obtain a glimpse at the bulk sample within. When the science canister lid was first opened, scientists discovered bonus asteroid material covering the outside of the collector head, canister lid, and base. There was so much extra material it slowed down the careful process of collecting and containing the primary sample.“Our labs were ready for whatever Bennu had in store for us,” said Vanessa Wyche, director, NASA Johnson. “We’ve had scientists and engineers working side-by-side for years to develop specialized gloveboxes and tools to keep the asteroid material pristine and to curate the samples so researchers now and decades from now can study this precious gift from the cosmos.”Within the first two weeks, scientists performed “quick-look” analyses of that initial material, collecting images from a scanning electron microscope, infrared measurements, X-ray diffraction, and chemical element analysis. X-ray computed tomography was also used to produce a 3D computer model of one of the particles, highlighting its diverse interior. This early glimpse provided the evidence of abundant carbon and water in the sample.“As we peer into the ancient secrets preserved within the dust and rocks of asteroid Bennu, we are unlocking a time capsule that offers us profound insights into the origins of our solar system,” said Dante Lauretta, OSIRIS-REx principal investigator, University of Arizona, Tucson. “The bounty of carbon-rich material and the abundant presence of water-bearing clay minerals are just the tip of the cosmic iceberg. These discoveries, made possible through years of dedicated collaboration and cutting-edge science, propel us on a journey to understand not only our celestial neighborhood but also the potential for life’s beginnings. With each revelation from Bennu, we draw closer to unraveling the mysteries of our cosmic heritage.”For the next two years, the mission’s science team will continue characterizing the samples and conduct the analysis needed to meet the mission’s science goals. NASA will preserve at least 70% of the sample at Johnson for further research by scientists worldwide, including future generations of scientists. As part of OSIRIS-REx’s science program, a cohort of more than 200 scientists around the world will explore the regolith’s properties, including researchers from many U.S. institutions, NASA partners JAXA (Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency), CSA (Canadian Space Agency), and other scientists from around the world. Additional samples will also be loaned later this fall to the Smithsonian Institution, Space Center Houston, and the University of Arizona for public display.NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, provides overall mission management, systems engineering, and the safety and mission assurance for OSIRIS-REx. Lauretta, the principal investigator, leads the science team and the mission’s science observation planning and data processing. Lockheed Martin Space in Littleton, Colorado, built the spacecraft, provided flight operations, and was responsible for capsule recovery. Goddard and KinetX Aerospace were responsible for navigating the OSIRIS-REx spacecraft. Curation for OSIRIS-REx, including processing the sample when it arrived on Earth, is taking place at NASA Johnson.OSIRIS-REx is the third mission in NASA’s New Frontiers Program, managed by NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington.Find more information about NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission at:https://www.nasa.gov/osiris-rex-end-
Here they are. These bits of ancient space rock may hold clues to how the rocky planets—including our own—formed. Scientists worldwide will study the #OSIRISREx sample for generations to come to get answers on where we come from.
