I'm not sure where you propose to mount the thrusters on Depot and/or Tanker. On HLS, they are at the waist, which means you need to compute the cosine loss. This affects the computation of the thrust needed at the Moon, and may also affect the system fuel efficiency for the transfer. I would also guess that there are 24 of them (or some other even number), not 27, because balancing the thrust is simpler if you use opposing pairs.
Conditions change throughout a transfer campaign. Geysering is more of a problem with the first propellant to enter a tank. Calls for low transfer rate or a high settling acceleration. At the end of the last topoff geysering shouldn't be an issue. A high transfer rate or low settling thrust, albeit with a heavy load, works well.
The initial settling thrust needed to get all the props to the bottom end of the tank can be extremely low. The lower it is, the less slosh. Once the fluids are in the bottom higher acceleration will settle out bubbles and residual slosh faster.
Once everything is where it needs to be and is settled down, the question of geysering and acceleration tradeoffs becomes prominent. There may also an issue of outlet vortex leading to pump cavitation in the delivering craft - if pumps are used. Settling and geysering will change for each transfer.
Elon may not like another thruster design but it's too handy a tool to ignore. He may find a workaround today but chances are that someday a small thruster will save another workaround or even keep him from dropping a handy idea because it would take more development than it warrants.
Edit to add: I think we have been ignoring something. We're dealing with two systems that can run in parallel - fuel and propellant oxidizer [FTFY]. Probably not a good idea if there's crew on board, but safe enough for routine ops?
Dozens of tonnes of wasted propellant? In a real SpaceX engineering discussion, this would be the point where Elon Musk chimes in, "so why aren't we doing spin gravity again?"The problems with linear thrust gravity are mathematically unavoidable. The problems with spin gravity are 'just' engineering. SpaceX never shied away from a challenge, especially if there's a big efficiency payoff at the other end (FFSC, chopstick landing, etc).It seems the big concerns are rotational instability (solved by rotating about the primary axis), and maybe mass imbalance between ships (this could be solved by docking nose-to-nose or interstage-to-interstage, but I wonder if there's a more clever way ).What's that old saying that IE is always reminding us of... "The requirements are probably wrong?"
In a real SpaceX engineering discussion, this would be the point where Elon Musk chimes in, "so why aren't we doing spin gravity again?"
During these upcoming Starship test flights, engineers will measure the slosh of propellants inside the ship, along with tank pressures, and observe how the fluids respond to impulses from small thrusters. In microgravity, these small rocket jets provide "settling thrust" to guide the ship's liquid toward the outflow needed for refueling.
A hub that 3 or more ships "dock" to nose first. Always rotating "slowly". If you keep 3 ships always docked then it would be stable. Docking while rotating shouldn't be too hard.
I get 23 min per revolution for a 50m starship and .001m/s^2 at the bottom2pi / sqrt(.001m/s^2 * 50m) = 1404s
Quote from: Twark_Main on 12/21/2024 09:24 amIn a real SpaceX engineering discussion, this would be the point where Elon Musk chimes in, "so why aren't we doing spin gravity again?"Apparently not...Quote from: Eric BergerDuring these upcoming Starship test flights, engineers will measure the slosh of propellants inside the ship, along with tank pressures, and observe how the fluids respond to impulses from small thrusters. In microgravity, these small rocket jets provide "settling thrust" to guide the ship's liquid toward the outflow needed for refueling.
Quote from: Twark_Main on 12/21/2024 09:24 amDozens of tonnes of wasted propellant? In a real SpaceX engineering discussion, this would be the point where Elon Musk chimes in, "so why aren't we doing spin gravity again?"The problems with linear thrust gravity are mathematically unavoidable. The problems with spin gravity are 'just' engineering. SpaceX never shied away from a challenge, especially if there's a big efficiency payoff at the other end (FFSC, chopstick landing, etc).It seems the big concerns are rotational instability (solved by rotating about the primary axis), and maybe mass imbalance between ships (this could be solved by docking nose-to-nose or interstage-to-interstage, but I wonder if there's a more clever way ).What's that old saying that IE is always reminding us of... "The requirements are probably wrong?" Nose-to-nose spin gravity involves an awful lot of re-plumbing, and long paths where the prop can pick up heat.
Beyond that, it's hard to figure out what the primary axis would be, and it'll change as the depot gets fuller.
Quote from: OTV Booster on 12/20/2024 09:13 pmConditions change throughout a transfer campaign. Geysering is more of a problem with the first propellant to enter a tank. Calls for low transfer rate or a high settling acceleration. At the end of the last topoff geysering shouldn't be an issue. A high transfer rate or low settling thrust, albeit with a heavy load, works well.After thinking about it, geysering only happens on the receiving end. That still makes it a problem for managing propellant blobs slamming into things and causing transient acceleration, but it shouldn't be a major cause of ullage farts. (Team Pump notes that ullage farts aren't a problem, as long as your pumps are self-priming.)QuoteThe initial settling thrust needed to get all the props to the bottom end of the tank can be extremely low. The lower it is, the less slosh. Once the fluids are in the bottom higher acceleration will settle out bubbles and residual slosh faster.But that's worse. Long-term high acceleration is what chews up prop for settling. If my numbers just up-thread are correct (and Dan points out that they're probably optimistic), then we have a real problem: There's not enough ullage for cold-gas settling, and the amount of combusting-gas methalox you'd need pretty much dictates that you have to draw the prop straight from the mains, which limits the thrusters' chamber pressure to something like 4bar. The Isp is still probably quite a bit better than cold gas, and you have more-or-less unlimited prop, unlike driving things off ullage cold gas, but your prop losses for settling are going to be substantial.QuoteOnce everything is where it needs to be and is settled down, the question of geysering and acceleration tradeoffs becomes prominent. There may also an issue of outlet vortex leading to pump cavitation in the delivering craft - if pumps are used. Settling and geysering will change for each transfer.We're not talking huge amounts of power here, so I doubt that cavitation is going to be a problem.QuoteElon may not like another thruster design but it's too handy a tool to ignore. He may find a workaround today but chances are that someday a small thruster will save another workaround or even keep him from dropping a handy idea because it would take more development than it warrants. I suspect that all designs whose justifications have the word "someday" in them are discarded--or at least filed until someday arrives. However, I think that "someday" may be now.Things would be a lot better if we had net transfer rates of about 500kg/s and we could settle at 0.1mm/sē. But that almost certainly requires a smaller combusting gas thruster than the one used for lunar landings.QuoteEdit to add: I think we have been ignoring something. We're dealing with two systems that can run in parallel - fuel and propellant oxidizer [FTFY]. Probably not a good idea if there's crew on board, but safe enough for routine ops?Well, they're loading fuel and oxidizer simultaneously on the pad right now, and if they change that sequence for (eventual) crewed launches, the prop loaded first isn't going to be fully subcooled.We've mostly been assuming that everything uses the same QD in space at is uses on the ground. I don't see why the risk is much higher in space, but it's an area where failures of imagination are possible.
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 12/21/2024 07:16 pmBeyond that, it's hard to figure out what the primary axis would be, and it'll change as the depot gets fuller.The primary axis will be with the depot and ships both tumbling "end over end," with both ships in a plane perpendicular to the spin axis. This gets the most mass out furthest from the axis. It doesn't change as the depot gets full.
the 100N to 1KN range is a really odd place for a methalox thruster.let's pick the middle, say 500N. For a cold gas thruster with Ve of 1000m/sec: The mass flow rate is 0.5kg/sec and the kinetic energy rate is 250kW. Typical efficiencies for all sorts of thrusters are 60% so that's 420kW input power. That's outside the range of reasonable electrical supply for something that lasts more than a few minutes, so electrical evaporators to renew ullage, electrically heated gas thrusters, etc. are out of the question. Something is going to have to burn.The energy of combustion for methane is about 10MJ/kg, so the the methalox mass flow rate to get 420kW is .04kg/sec. 10x energy density by batteries, btw. But 40 grams / second is a really small flow rate. A landing thruster for a low grav body is going to have a mass flow rate of 100x that, nothing has that kind of throttling range.I keep wondering if there's some sort of general need for a high amount of electrical power, and whether that can be done with a methalox generator at very low mass. If one could generate a megawatt with a mass flow rate of 166 grams/sec and you could keep the ullage up without fuel contamination, or heat the exhaust for lower mass flow rate (or both), and generally keep all the batteries charged all the time. It's easier and more reliable to run electrical cables than pipes. You don't have to worry about leaks mixing methane and lox together (but you do have to detect shorts and arcs, as one Starship found out on the test stand)
IIRC, the biggest complaint about geysering was back when we were discussing connecting the ullage spaces. It was feared that geysering would pass propellent back to the originating ship. Maybe it's no big deal after all but I've got to admit that props slamming around doesn't feel like a good idea. Just a gut reaction.
Quote from: Twark_Main on 12/21/2024 10:24 pmQuote from: TheRadicalModerate on 12/21/2024 07:16 pmBeyond that, it's hard to figure out what the primary axis would be, and it'll change as the depot gets fuller.The primary axis will be with the depot and ships both tumbling "end over end," with both ships in a plane perpendicular to the spin axis. This gets the most mass out furthest from the axis. It doesn't change as the depot gets full.The centre of rotation changes as propellant is transferred. Empty depot / first tanker CoM is going to be significantly different to full depot / empty HLS CoM.
The propellant load is 5-6 times the combined dry-mass of the two ships. So effectively, the centre of current-propellant-location is the CoM of the whole system at any time. That'll start in the middle of the first tanker, and move over to the middle of the depot with each successive tanker, then back to the middle of the HLS during the last transfer.
Additionally, there's not a lot of additional mass in the rotational plane (only the flaps), so the short and intermediate axes are almost identical, making the rotation unstable.
OTOH, a dozen tonnes of prop for transfer burns is 10% of the prop-mass for the tanker. So you need 10% more tankers. Ie, not quite one. Two dozen tonnes-per-transfer is one-and-a-bit extra tankers.
One or two extra tankers, or a complex AG design?
Quote from: Paul451 on 12/22/2024 02:06 amThe centre of rotation changes as propellant is transferred. Empty depot / first tanker CoM is going to be significantly different to full depot / empty HLS CoM.Yep. So?Moving the center-of-mass doesn't change the primary axis, or induce rotational instability, or shift where the propellant "pools."
The centre of rotation changes as propellant is transferred. Empty depot / first tanker CoM is going to be significantly different to full depot / empty HLS CoM.
Quote from: Paul451 on 12/22/2024 02:06 amAdditionally, there's not a lot of additional mass in the rotational plane (only the flaps), so the short and intermediate axes are almost identical, making the rotation unstable.I think you're confused. Maybe it's because you neglected the dry mass above? When you also account for the dry masses (and their being off-axis from the CoM, see the parallel axis theorem), you find it dwarfs the contribution of having one set of body flaps sticking out-of-plane.
When we're talking about accelerations, is the intent to transfer fuel using the inertial pressure head, or is the intent to just use it to ensure settling
You propose docking two ships together in a line, and spinning them end over end.
Quote from: Paul451 on 12/22/2024 05:46 amYou propose docking two ships together in a line, and spinning them end over end. I actually envision dorsal-to-dorsal docking, the same as existing renders.
Quote from: meekGee on 12/22/2024 06:05 amWhen we're talking about accelerations, is the intent to transfer fuel using the inertial pressure head, or is the intent to just use it to ensure settlingThe second one. Team "pump" all the way.
If you mean side-mount and "spinning end-over-end", then you are rotating around the intermediate axis and it is instantly unstable.If you mean side-mount and spinning flat like a frisbee, then you have massively altered the way the propellant will settle, and it makes the CoM issue vastly worse. The complexity of this configuration makes other suggestions look like child's play.