Author Topic: Dawn Aerospace  (Read 32932 times)

Offline trimeta

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #60 on: 04/07/2023 06:56 pm »
That is a flat out no for SSTO. There are no sustainer engines on any stage burning from horizontal take-off all the way to the inital orbital insertion during the burn of the flight to even be called an SSTO. A carrier aircraft is classed as Stage-0.
If you're counting the carrier aircraft as Stage 0, then the rocket itself (which has only one stage) would be an SSTO, no? Although if you wanted to call the plane Stage 1 and the rocket Stage 2 (thus making it a TSTO), I wouldn't argue.
The previous poster was referring to the Mk-III version which is flying the second stage therefore it is TSTO. It is not being released from a carrier aircraft. Dawn Aerospace is classing their system as a TSTO system.
Sure, the Mk-III version has two components: the rocket plane that takes off from the surface and reaches at least 100km (before returning back to the runway and being reused), and the expendable single-stage rocket dropped from the rocket plane (which reaches orbit). One could maybe argue that the rocket plane is a "carrier aircraft," and thus is a Stage 0; from that perspective, since the rocket has just one stage, it's an SSTO. But it's certainly not single stage from the ground to orbit. The fact that the rocket itself only needs one stage to get to orbit is perhaps prima facie evidence that the rocket plane is doing enough work to qualify as an actual stage, not just a carrier aircraft.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #61 on: 04/07/2023 08:11 pm »


Dawn flies rocket-powered spaceplane [dated Apr. 5]

Quote from: SpaceNews
Dawn Aerospace completed its first series of rocket-powered flights last week.

Mk-II Aurora, a scaled down version of the spaceplane Dawn is developing for commercial operations, took to the skies March 29, 30 and 31 from New Zealand’s Gentanner Aerodrome.

The initial test campaign validated key flight systems and demonstrated the benefit of rapid reusability, Dawn CEO Stefan Powell told SpaceNews.

During the first flight, the Mk-II Aurora consumed more fuel than anticipated due to a leak in the propellant system. The next day, Dawn engineers removed the Mk-II Aurora engine, took out the oxidizer tank and found the leak.

“It was reasonably trivial to fix that, put it back together and fly again,” Powell said. “That speaks to just how different this concept is than a regular rocket. Not only would you have not gotten the vehicle back, but you wouldn’t have been able to execute a repair and show that it works in the same day.”

<snip>

The Mk-II is designed to reach an altitude of 20 kilometers. During initial flight tests, the vehicle flew to roughly 2,000 meters and traveled at a maximum speed of 315 kilometers per hour.

That 20km altitude comment is bit misleading sounds like it is max.
Specifications on webpage is 110km with upto 180seconds of microgravity.

https://www.dawnaerospace.com/spacelaunch

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #62 on: 04/07/2023 09:52 pm »


Dawn flies rocket-powered spaceplane [dated Apr. 5]

Quote from: SpaceNews
Dawn Aerospace completed its first series of rocket-powered flights last week.

Mk-II Aurora, a scaled down version of the spaceplane Dawn is developing for commercial operations, took to the skies March 29, 30 and 31 from New Zealand’s Gentanner Aerodrome.

The initial test campaign validated key flight systems and demonstrated the benefit of rapid reusability, Dawn CEO Stefan Powell told SpaceNews.

During the first flight, the Mk-II Aurora consumed more fuel than anticipated due to a leak in the propellant system. The next day, Dawn engineers removed the Mk-II Aurora engine, took out the oxidizer tank and found the leak.

“It was reasonably trivial to fix that, put it back together and fly again,” Powell said. “That speaks to just how different this concept is than a regular rocket. Not only would you have not gotten the vehicle back, but you wouldn’t have been able to execute a repair and show that it works in the same day.”

<snip>

The Mk-II is designed to reach an altitude of 20 kilometers. During initial flight tests, the vehicle flew to roughly 2,000 meters and traveled at a maximum speed of 315 kilometers per hour.

That 20km altitude comment is bit misleading sounds like it is max.
Specifications on webpage is 110km with upto 180seconds of microgravity.

https://www.dawnaerospace.com/spacelaunch
Depends on the flight test article number and mk number.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #63 on: 04/08/2023 10:37 am »
AFAIK Dawn Aerospace is currently only developing the Mk.II Aurora. The Mk.III is a plan for the future.
This first version of Mk.II Aurora was equipped with structure to mount micro jet engines,
the second version will not have this structure. Thus saving weight.
Dawn Aerospace also found other hardware to save weight on. And they increase propellent tank size.
The reduced structure mass, increased propallent capacity and increased thrust of the engine will enable the second iteration to reach above the Karman Line (~110km) instead of only 20km altitude, the final target they try to reach with the first iteration of mk. II Aurora.

Early this year NASA launched the two MesOrion rockets. The Dawn Mk. II could also launch the payloads flown by these two imp. Orion rockets. (3U <5kg) Dawn could launch these payloads multiple times daily with Mk.II Aurora vehicles. With the purpose to measure atmospheric parameters between 40 and 100km. This can be feed into weather and climate models to improve their accuracy. 

The Mk.III is a much larger version of the same vehicle concept. With 1000kg instead of 3kg payload capability on a suborbital mission. (That's to space and back; not orbital) A payload of <250kg can be launched into (L)LEO orbit, when an expandable second stage is used.
For this second stage I think Dawn might be able to use a vacume optimized version of the engine used on Mk.II Aurora. I think this engine would also be very nice for an (in orbit) kick-stage.

Personally I think there might also be a market for a intermediate size. This would be closer to Mk.II than to Mk.III. I'm thinking about a 50 to 100kg payload to up to 300km altitude.

The spaceplanes from Dawn Aerospace take off and land horizontally. I think the system could be smaller/ or  heavier payloads can be launched when the vehicle launches vertically. Dawn Aerospace is trying to operate Mk.II like an aircraft. But I'm not sure this can fully materialize. I think it's likely (aero)nautical closures remain required. If this is the case; I think vertical launch don't hamper potential launch locations. Possibly landing down range from the launch site increase launch location options, because the launch aerospace closure can be located a distance from the landing airport. The glide-back landing can take place at the airport while it is in operation. The Mk.II is small enough to load it in a van or truck. So moving is from the landing site to the launch site wouldn't be that hard.

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #64 on: 04/08/2023 11:12 pm »
Guys, please please please listen to the latest MECO podcast episode before you keep talking about this. It's a fantastic episode, which goes into detail about not just the MkII and it's test campaign, but also the broader business case of the company and of the spaceplanes. The CEO had great answers, which were perfectly logical and reasonable; I'm way more confident in and hopeful for the company as a whole after listening to it.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot the link: https://mainenginecutoff.com/podcast/244
« Last Edit: 04/08/2023 11:20 pm by JEF_300 »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #65 on: 04/10/2023 08:55 am »


Dawn flies rocket-powered spaceplane [dated Apr. 5]

Quote from: SpaceNews
Dawn Aerospace completed its first series of rocket-powered flights last week.

Mk-II Aurora, a scaled down version of the spaceplane Dawn is developing for commercial operations, took to the skies March 29, 30 and 31 from New Zealand’s Gentanner Aerodrome.

The initial test campaign validated key flight systems and demonstrated the benefit of rapid reusability, Dawn CEO Stefan Powell told SpaceNews.

During the first flight, the Mk-II Aurora consumed more fuel than anticipated due to a leak in the propellant system. The next day, Dawn engineers removed the Mk-II Aurora engine, took out the oxidizer tank and found the leak.

“It was reasonably trivial to fix that, put it back together and fly again,” Powell said. “That speaks to just how different this concept is than a regular rocket. Not only would you have not gotten the vehicle back, but you wouldn’t have been able to execute a repair and show that it works in the same day.”

&lt;snip&gt;

The Mk-II is designed to reach an altitude of 20 kilometers. During initial flight tests, the vehicle flew to roughly 2,000 meters and traveled at a maximum speed of 315 kilometers per hour.

That 20km altitude comment is bit misleading sounds like it is max.
Specifications on webpage is 110km with upto 180seconds of microgravity.

https://www.dawnaerospace.com/spacelaunch
After listening to MECO podcast this 20km ceiling makes sense as it applies to current Mk2A test vehicle.  MK2B being built now has more fuel and thrust plus RCS to allow it to reach 100km. Should be ready fly by end of 2023.

At this stage suborbital market is bit unknown but Dawn hope access to spaceplane that could fly multiple low cost missions a day could create its own market. In space manufacturing is a possibility assuming 5 minutes of micro G is enough time for some products. They really are hoping MK2 is profitable in its own right and not just an expensive tech demostrator for larger MK3.




Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #66 on: 04/10/2023 07:14 pm »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #67 on: 04/11/2023 09:55 pm »
Where is the dislike button?
An image says more than a thousand words. thus ...

Edit: Dawn Aerospace started in The Netherlands and New Zealand.
I think because of the market succes of the N2O Propylene (C3H6) satellite propulsion they setup a sales office in the USA.
Thus this isn't a Kiwi space plane; it's international; also Dutch (and a little bit American).

The flag in the middle is: The International Flag of Planet Earth.

« Last Edit: 04/12/2023 05:58 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #68 on: 04/11/2023 10:05 pm »
Where is the dislike button?
An image says more than a thousand words. thus ...

What you're looking at are three flags, including the New Zealand and Netherlands flags, I'm not sure what the blue one in the center is as it's very blurry. It kind of looks like the "international world flag." However: 

"Dawn Aerospace is a space company based in the United States of America, the Netherlands and New Zealand."

Literally the first sentence in the Wikipedia page.  Dawn Aerospace has offices in all three nations.

What's to dislike about that?
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #69 on: 04/27/2023 05:51 am »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #70 on: 05/12/2023 05:38 am »
Good article on why Dawn use nitrous oxide and propylene (aka propene) to fuel their satellite thrusters.
Auroa II rocket plane uses H202 as oxidizer not sure of propellant. Engine has monopropellant mode which is H202, for low thrust. See the latest youtube video from them and comments.

https://twitter.com/Firefly_Space/status/1653863708727050242?t=rzvtkGPmtNKO6jGvnDyBJw&s=19

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #71 on: 05/13/2023 03:45 am »
Our first ever composite common dome structure is on the test stand as we undergo development testing for our Medium Launch Vehicle. This configuration allows us to cut out the entire intertank, significantly reducing vehicle weight with fewer parts. pic.twitter.com/hltMeP6qnE

Wrong tweet!
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #72 on: 05/13/2023 04:02 pm »
Good article on why Dawn use nitrous oxide and propylene (aka propene) to fuel their satellite thrusters.
Auroa II rocket plane uses H202 as oxidizer not sure of propellant. Engine has monopropellant mode which is H202, for low thrust. See the latest youtube video from them and comments.

The Dawn Aerospace Mk. II rocket engine catalytically decomposes 90% H2O2; optionally adds kerosine is also injected into the nozzle for bi-propellent burn. This info is on their website.
https://www.dawnaerospace.com/spacelaunch

 :D ?
I'm all for it.
« Last Edit: 05/13/2023 04:09 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #73 on: 05/30/2023 06:40 am »
twitter.com/astro_rayyanah/status/1663289138831867904

Quote
These are the faces of a happy team holding the 100th B20 thruster off the production line! A milestone we hit last week!🎉🚀
#greenpropulsion

https://twitter.com/dawnaerospace/status/1663405547939590145

Quote
The first B20 was produced in 2020. Since then, we have scaled up production significantly and are now producing them at rate of 2 per week. This year alone, we’ll produce and ship 100 of these to customers around the globe 🛰

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #74 on: 05/30/2023 07:28 pm »
Excellent video on their spaceplane. Didn't know it was electric pump rocket engine, kind of makes sense given they are a NZ+Dutch company.


« Last Edit: 06/01/2023 04:24 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #75 on: 06/01/2023 08:46 am »
Excellent video on their spaceplane. Didn't know it was electric pump rocket engine, kind of makes sense given they are a NZ+Dutch company.

They forgot the Chinese X-37 clone and Dream Chaser hasn't flown yet.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #76 on: 06/01/2023 04:07 pm »
Could've also included XCOR but video was about Dawn not history of spaceplanes.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #77 on: 06/03/2023 08:20 am »
twitter.com/astro_rayyanah/status/1663289138831867904

Quote
The first B20 was produced in 2020. Since then, we have scaled up production significantly and are now producing them at rate of 2 per week. This year alone, we’ll produce and ship 100 of these to customers around the globe 🛰

Which also means they have a regular cash flow and are not entirely investor dependent.

Doesn't guarantee success, but it does improve their odds a bit.  :)
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #78 on: 06/03/2023 08:52 pm »
twitter.com/astro_rayyanah/status/1663289138831867904

Quote
The first B20 was produced in 2020. Since then, we have scaled up production significantly and are now producing them at rate of 2 per week. This year alone, we’ll produce and ship 100 of these to customers around the globe

Which also means they have a regular cash flow and are not entirely investor dependent.

Doesn't guarantee success, but it does improve their odds a bit.  :)

Auroa 2 was designed as subscale demostrator for considerable more expensive to develop Auroa 3.
Dawn is hoping Auroa 2 unlocks a successful suborbital business which would help pay its way and boost their profits. This market is big unknown and has never had rapidly reuseable vehicle serving it. Being able to fly payload days apart or ideally hours is nice selling point. Besides flight price, customer has to pay for their staff's travel costs. If they can get few flights over a few days that is significant saving per flight.

Build Auroa 3 is going need large cash injection from investors or loans. Besides building the spaceplane need to design and build upperstage which will need production line. Using runway only eliminates vertical pad still need all the other facilities that launch sites have to support an orbital launch.

My guess is around $100M.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2023 08:52 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Dawn Aerospace
« Reply #79 on: 06/03/2023 09:20 pm »
Could've also included XCOR but video was about Dawn not history of spaceplanes.
Well...
Reaction were included (with a logo that's decades out of date  :(  ) presumably because they are still in business.

OTOH XCOR did not succeed in flying a vehicle and is out of business, hence no mention.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

 

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