Quote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 03:36 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 03:33 pmShould Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?Yes. The Docking system is a permanently installed on each Dragon 2.I meant fully androgynous.Quote from: woods170 on 03/31/2020 01:29 pmIn other words: two SpaceX docking systems can NOT dock to each other, because they are not fully androgynous. The active hooks on one side would find NO passive hooks on the other side to latch onto.
Quote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 03:33 pmShould Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?Yes. The Docking system is a permanently installed on each Dragon 2.
Should Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?
In other words: two SpaceX docking systems can NOT dock to each other, because they are not fully androgynous. The active hooks on one side would find NO passive hooks on the other side to latch onto.
Quote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 04:20 pmQuote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 03:36 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 03:33 pmShould Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?Yes. The Docking system is a permanently installed on each Dragon 2.I meant fully androgynous.Quote from: woods170 on 03/31/2020 01:29 pmIn other words: two SpaceX docking systems can NOT dock to each other, because they are not fully androgynous. The active hooks on one side would find NO passive hooks on the other side to latch onto.Your docking logic is incorrect. Both sides each have a set 12 passive hooks and 12 active hooks. When both sets of active hooks are driven closed 24 active hooks engage 24 passive hooks which is 12 on the active HCS and 12 on the passive HCS. Read the IDSS Rev E document and view the relevant graphics to understand.
Your docking logic is incorrect. Both sides each have a set 12 passive hooks and 12 active hooks. When both sets of active hooks are driven closed 24 active hooks engage 24 passive hooks which is 12 on the active HCS and 12 on the passive HCS. Read the IDSS Rev E document and view the relevant graphics to understand.
Quote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 07:02 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 04:20 pmQuote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 03:36 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 03:33 pmShould Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?Yes. The Docking system is a permanently installed on each Dragon 2.I meant fully androgynous.Quote from: woods170 on 03/31/2020 01:29 pmIn other words: two SpaceX docking systems can NOT dock to each other, because they are not fully androgynous. The active hooks on one side would find NO passive hooks on the other side to latch onto.Your docking logic is incorrect. Both sides each have a set 12 passive hooks and 12 active hooks. When both sets of active hooks are driven closed 24 active hooks engage 24 passive hooks which is 12 on the active HCS and 12 on the passive HCS. Read the IDSS Rev E document and view the relevant graphics to understand.I'm going to believe woods170 logic on this.Edit: As far as I know the private Dragon missions are not going to the ISS so the only option would be docking with another spacecraft.
IDSS IDD Revision EOctober 20163-233.2.3.4 HARD CAPTURE HOOKSThe HCS shall incorporate 12 pairs of active and passive hooks, located as shown in Figure 3.2.3-1. To carry nominal loads, 12 active hooks on one docking system shall engage 12 passive hooks on an opposing docking system interface. On a fully androgynous system, the 12 active hooks on each side of the interface may be engaged with the 12 passive hooks on the opposing interface for a total of 24 active hook engagements. Although engaging 24 hooks is not a requirement, this capability can be used to carry additional mated interface loads. The HCS implements a passively compliant passive hook. The hooks shall conform to the definition as shown in the HCS Hooks – Side Views [Figures 3.2.3.4-1, Ready to Dock Configuration, 3.2.3.4-2, Ready to Hook Configuration, and 3.2.3.4-3, Fully Mated Configuration], Figure 3.2.3.4-4, HCS Active Hook, and the HCS Passive Hook [Figures 3.2.3.4-5, Passive Hook, and 3.2.3.4-6, Passive Hook Detail View]. The motion of the active hook shall be bounded by the envelope shown in Figure 3.2.3.4-7, HCS Active Hook Motion Envelope.
Quote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 07:02 pmYour docking logic is incorrect. Both sides each have a set 12 passive hooks and 12 active hooks. When both sets of active hooks are driven closed 24 active hooks engage 24 passive hooks which is 12 on the active HCS and 12 on the passive HCS. Read the IDSS Rev E document and view the relevant graphics to understand.
Quote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 07:02 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 04:20 pmQuote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 03:36 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 03:33 pmShould Dragon 2's for the private flights be androgynous?Yes. The Docking system is a permanently installed on each Dragon 2.I meant fully androgynous.Quote from: woods170 on 03/31/2020 01:29 pmIn other words: two SpaceX docking systems can NOT dock to each other, because they are not fully androgynous. The active hooks on one side would find NO passive hooks on the other side to latch onto.Your docking logic is incorrect. Both sides each have a set 12 passive hooks and 12 active hooks. When both sets of active hooks are driven closed 24 active hooks engage 24 passive hooks which is 12 on the active HCS and 12 on the passive HCS. Read the IDSS Rev E document and view the relevant graphics to understand.Actually, the standard says it's optional to have both sets:QuoteIDSS IDD Revision EOctober 20163-233.2.3.4 HARD CAPTURE HOOKSThe HCS shall incorporate 12 pairs of active and passive hooks, located as shown in Figure 3.2.3-1. To carry nominal loads, 12 active hooks on one docking system shall engage 12 passive hooks on an opposing docking system interface. On a fully androgynous system, the 12 active hooks on each side of the interface may be engaged with the 12 passive hooks on the opposing interface for a total of 24 active hook engagements. Although engaging 24 hooks is not a requirement, this capability can be used to carry additional mated interface loads. The HCS implements a passively compliant passive hook. The hooks shall conform to the definition as shown in the HCS Hooks – Side Views [Figures 3.2.3.4-1, Ready to Dock Configuration, 3.2.3.4-2, Ready to Hook Configuration, and 3.2.3.4-3, Fully Mated Configuration], Figure 3.2.3.4-4, HCS Active Hook, and the HCS Passive Hook [Figures 3.2.3.4-5, Passive Hook, and 3.2.3.4-6, Passive Hook Detail View]. The motion of the active hook shall be bounded by the envelope shown in Figure 3.2.3.4-7, HCS Active Hook Motion Envelope.
Hooks can be passive or active so 12 hooks in active mode on a Dragon 2 can hook to 12 hooks in passive mode on a Dragon 2 allowing docking.
Quote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 08:56 pmHooks can be passive or active so 12 hooks in active mode on a Dragon 2 can hook to 12 hooks in passive mode on a Dragon 2 allowing docking.Sorry, that's not correct. A typical hook "assembly" has an active and a passive hook. There are 12 assemblies, 24 hooks total. As can be seen in the picture in my previous post, SpaceX only has active hooks, they don't have passive hooks, so they only have 12 hooks. Nothing can "hook" to Dragon, since it doesn't have passive hooks. Dragon can only hook to an IDA or other IDSS compliant docking system which has passive hooks, which Dragon doesn't have.
Quote from: jarmumd on 04/02/2020 09:15 pmQuote from: Negan on 04/02/2020 08:56 pmHooks can be passive or active so 12 hooks in active mode on a Dragon 2 can hook to 12 hooks in passive mode on a Dragon 2 allowing docking.Sorry, that's not correct. A typical hook "assembly" has an active and a passive hook. There are 12 assemblies, 24 hooks total. As can be seen in the picture in my previous post, SpaceX only has active hooks, they don't have passive hooks, so they only have 12 hooks. Nothing can "hook" to Dragon, since it doesn't have passive hooks. Dragon can only hook to an IDA or other IDSS compliant docking system which has passive hooks, which Dragon doesn't have.No both sides do. your picture shows the active hooks fully retracted. The passive hooks are permanently visible.
Quote from: russianhalo117 on 04/02/2020 09:24 pmQuote from: jarmumd on 04/02/2020 09:15 pmA typical hook "assembly" has an active and a passive hook. There are 12 assemblies, 24 hooks total. As can be seen in the picture in my previous post, SpaceX only has active hooks, they don't have passive hooks, so they only have 12 hooks. Nothing can "hook" to Dragon, since it doesn't have passive hooks. Dragon can only hook to an IDA or other IDSS compliant docking system which has passive hooks, which Dragon doesn't have.No both sides do. your picture shows the active hooks fully retracted. The passive hooks are permanently visible.I'm sorry, that's just not correct. The active hooks move, but even fully rotated, they are still visible. Also, they are near the center of the hook assembly. See attached figure from IDSS revE.
Quote from: jarmumd on 04/02/2020 09:15 pmA typical hook "assembly" has an active and a passive hook. There are 12 assemblies, 24 hooks total. As can be seen in the picture in my previous post, SpaceX only has active hooks, they don't have passive hooks, so they only have 12 hooks. Nothing can "hook" to Dragon, since it doesn't have passive hooks. Dragon can only hook to an IDA or other IDSS compliant docking system which has passive hooks, which Dragon doesn't have.No both sides do. your picture shows the active hooks fully retracted. The passive hooks are permanently visible.
A typical hook "assembly" has an active and a passive hook. There are 12 assemblies, 24 hooks total. As can be seen in the picture in my previous post, SpaceX only has active hooks, they don't have passive hooks, so they only have 12 hooks. Nothing can "hook" to Dragon, since it doesn't have passive hooks. Dragon can only hook to an IDA or other IDSS compliant docking system which has passive hooks, which Dragon doesn't have.
3.2.3.4 HARD CAPTURE HOOKSThe HCS shall incorporate 12 pairs of active and passive hooks, located as shown in Figure 3.2.3-1. To carry nominal loads, 12 active hooks on one docking system shall engage 12 passive hooks on an opposing docking system interface. On a fully androgynous system, the 12 active hooks on each side of the interface may be engaged with the 12 passive hooks on the opposing interface for a total of 24 active hook engagements. Although engaging 24 hooks is not a requirement, this capability can be used to carry additional mated interface loads.
QuoteIDSS IDD Revision EOctober 20163-233.2.3.4 HARD CAPTURE HOOKSThe HCS shall incorporate 12 pairs of active and passive hooks, located as shown in Figure 3.2.3-1. To carry nominal loads, 12 active hooks on one docking system shall engage 12 passive hooks on an opposing docking system interface. On a fully androgynous system, the 12 active hooks on each side of the interface may be engaged with the 12 passive hooks on the opposing interface for a total of 24 active hook engagements. Although engaging 24 hooks is not a requirement, this capability can be used to carry additional mated interface loads. The HCS implements a passively compliant passive hook. The hooks shall conform to the definition as shown in the HCS Hooks – Side Views [Figures 3.2.3.4-1, Ready to Dock Configuration, 3.2.3.4-2, Ready to Hook Configuration, and 3.2.3.4-3, Fully Mated Configuration], Figure 3.2.3.4-4, HCS Active Hook, and the HCS Passive Hook [Figures 3.2.3.4-5, Passive Hook, and 3.2.3.4-6, Passive Hook Detail View]. The motion of the active hook shall be bounded by the envelope shown in Figure 3.2.3.4-7, HCS Active Hook Motion Envelope.Reattaching the diagram below - can I just make sure I understand this correctly. If this diagram represents the docking ports of two modules, let's call them module A (above), and B (below).From left to right, the hooks are:1) Module B, passive hook.2) Module A, active hook (would move right to left to latch).3) Module B, active hook (would move left to right to latch).4) not depicted is a passive hook for Module A. And the absence of this passive hook is what Woods170 is saying is the situation with Dragon 2.
There seems to be pages and pages here of people saying the current iterations of Dragon can't dock to each other but really there doesn't seem to be any major technical hurdles if they wanted to move to a fully compliant docking system. All it would take is the time and cost of getting their design with both sets of hooks built and certified. The question then is there a use case where it is desired to have that capability.