Author Topic: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas  (Read 6307 times)

Offline Blackstar

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Michael Van posted these over at the Secret Projects Forum. They are from the San Diego Air and Space Museum's Flickr site. They are from a 1960 study for a three-stage Atlas launch vehicle, with the third stage a small Centaur. I'm no rocket engineer, but I can imagine that the performance on this vehicle was not that great. You get your best bang for the buck from your high energy upper stage, so it doesn't make much sense to give it a small propellant tank and burn it only a short duration.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #1 on: 02/07/2017 09:28 pm »
I ran across a description of a "Centaur Junior" from around the same period, which is in the Atlas Variants thread.  It doesn't look quite the same, but the single-RL10 is there.  It looked to be aimed at GEO and maybe lunar landing missions.  Note that this was for an Atlas "F" variant that was never actually developed.  The Atlas F that did fly was much different.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26915.msg1431549#msg1431549

Interesting that this "Gamma Centaur" upper stage looks a lot like a Vega stage - a project canceled in December 1959.  I also wonder about this "Gamma" vehicle.  It looks like an Atlas, but it must have differed enough to warrant its own name.  Different engines perhaps?  Different propellants?

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/07/2017 09:36 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #2 on: 02/07/2017 09:48 pm »
The image clearly depicts a Vega aft bulkhead that is modified for this design.

Offline GClark

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #3 on: 02/07/2017 10:36 pm »
It appears that this an upper stage for the Atlas-Centaur.  Kinda begs the question of exactly what it's intended for...

Offline Proponent

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #4 on: 02/07/2017 10:41 pm »
It would only make sense for small high-energy missions.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #5 on: 02/08/2017 12:06 am »
Right, when you have to go somewhere really, really fast, like Jupiter.  But, with such a low mass-ratio, maybe not so fast. Probably stretching the Centaur would buy you more delta-V.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #6 on: 02/08/2017 12:10 am »
It almost looks like a liquid PAM...
« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 12:11 am by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #7 on: 02/08/2017 11:56 am »
Blackstar THX for posting, i just wanted to post it here  ;D

i believe this is idea for Small Deep Space probes on high energy trajectories
like into inner Solar system or outwards to Jupiter.
With payload of 200 kg, Like Mariner 1 to 3 they fit under Payload shroud depicted on illustration.

« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 11:57 am by Michel Van »

Offline Proponent

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #8 on: 02/08/2017 12:28 pm »
Right, when you have to go somewhere really, really fast, like Jupiter.  But, with such a low mass-ratio, maybe not so fast. Probably stretching the Centaur would buy you more delta-V.

An early Centaur's burn-out mass was about 4400 lbm.  That made it a very inefficient way of accelerating, say, an early-Mariner spacecraft of mass 440 lbm to high speed.  A light kick stage, even one of modest mass ratio, would help a lot.  Consider, for example, the solid (i.e., low-Isp) kick stages used for the Pioneer probes to Jupiter; a small lox-hydrogen kick stage could easily be an improvement.

Stretching the Centaur would help more with increasing payload mass to low-energy trajectories.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 01:21 pm by Proponent »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #9 on: 02/08/2017 01:24 pm »
I ran across a description of a "Centaur Junior" from around the same period, which is in the Atlas Variants thread.  It doesn't look quite the same, but the single-RL10 is there.  It looked to be aimed at GEO and maybe lunar landing missions.  Note that this was for an Atlas "F" variant that was never actually developed.  The Atlas F that did fly was much different.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26915.msg1431549#msg1431549

Interesting that this "Gamma Centaur" upper stage looks a lot like a Vega stage - a project canceled in December 1959.  I also wonder about this "Gamma" vehicle.  It looks like an Atlas, but it must have differed enough to warrant its own name.  Different engines perhaps?  Different propellants?

 - Ed Kyle

I made quick calculation on Gamma Centaur Illustration

It's seems that Atlas Size is "D" and not the 1960 stretch Atlas "F" proposal
it make logical sense to build Centaur Jr. like Vega stage out Centaur parts

General Dynamics made R&D and build mockup of Vega stage in 1959, so why not reuse it ?
instead RP-1/LOX it filled with LOX/LH2 and replace GE405H-2 Engine with modified RL-10.
and since the Centaur parts are same size like the Vega Hardware,
So is the Gamma Centaur a low-cost approach on Atlas F/Centaur Jr proposal ?

Note on 1960 Atlas F/Centaur Jr proposal
That H-2 could be study of thrust upgraded engine.
There is the H-1c study with thrust of 115226 kgf
could it's same study under other name or simply a scribal error and instead mean H-1 ?

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #10 on: 02/08/2017 02:00 pm »
Here is the Atlas "F" with the Centaur Jr. from 1960.
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0842594

Regarding the H-2 engine proposed for Atlas "F" (apparently also called "Atlas G" at some point), it would have been a 250 Klbf engine like the H-1c mentioned earlier.  I believe that it was under study as a way to increase the Saturn stage thrust for future planned upgrades (later known as Saturn C-2, C-3, etc.).  It was also proposed by GD for this giant Atlas "F" ICBM (see Pg. 45 of the document, note that this is not the Atlas F that was subsequently developed) that I suspect may have been offered as a Titan 2 alternative.

I agree that this "Gamma" looks like an early Atlas Centaur booster stage.  I've never until now heard of this "Gamma".  It must have been a proposal to NASA, since Atlas-Centaur was a NASA program.  NASA and USAF were using Greek letter designation about then (e.g. Thor-Delta, Thor-Epsilon), so Gamma might have fit that style.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 03:53 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Proponent

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #11 on: 02/08/2017 03:30 pm »
For examples, have a look a this 1964 paper on a solar probe that Blackstar posted a while ago.  It refers to a number of lox-hydrogen kick stages smaller than a Centaur (though maybe not as small as the one we're talking about here).  One of them is referred to as an S-VI.  In the past, I wondered whether that could possibly by a typo for S-IV, even though the S-IV was, in this context, quite huge.  But now I wonder whether, since the Saturn S-V stage was essentially a Centaur, maybe the S-VI was a still smaller lox-hydrogen stage.

The second attachment to this post mentions the possibility of using a small lox-hydrogen stage for a lunar Gemini mission.  That's actually at variance with my earlier claim that such a thing would be used only for small, high-speed missions.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #12 on: 02/08/2017 03:54 pm »
Here is the Atlas "F" with the Centaur Jr. from 1960.
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0842594

Regarding the H-2 engine proposed for Atlas "F", it would have been a 250 Klbf engine like the H-1c mentioned earlier.  I believe that it was under study as a way to increase the Saturn stage thrust for future planned upgrades (later known as Saturn C-2, C-3, etc.).  It was also proposed by GD for this giant Atlas "F" ICBM (see Pg. 45 of the document, note that this is not the Atlas F that was subsequently developed) that I suspect may have been offered as a Titan 2 alternative.

I agree that this "Gamma" looks like an early Atlas Centaur booster stage.  I've never until now heard of this "Gamma".  It must have been a proposal to NASA, since Atlas-Centaur was a NASA program.  NASA and USAF were using Greek letter designation about then (e.g. Thor-Delta, Thor-Epsilon), so Gamma might have fit that style.

 - Ed Kyle

Many thanks for this document
It show me a lot information

The Link Document is dated 17 November 1965.
While SDASM dated the Gamma Centaur picture from 08 July 1960.
So there 5 years between those versions
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/24613662985/in/photolist-Dv2stK

« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 03:58 pm by Michel Van »

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #13 on: 02/08/2017 04:29 pm »
The Link Document is dated 17 November 1965.
While SDASM dated the Gamma Centaur picture from 08 July 1960.
So there 5 years between those versions
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/24613662985/in/photolist-Dv2stK
The "Atlas F/Centaur Jr." DTIC document is dated 14 June 1960, if that's the one you are talking about, which would make it a contemporary of the Gamma Centaur proposal images, I believe.

Meanwhile, this 1965 paper, if it is the one you are talking about, has a nice drawing of an Atlas Centaur with an LH2/LOX kick stage that looks an awful lot like "Gamma Centaur".   I've noticed that General Dynamics kept proposing and re-proposing, sometimes for decades, some of its favorite designs.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22633.msg1182800#msg1182800

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 02/08/2017 05:03 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #14 on: 02/09/2017 08:44 am »
i was referring to this document
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0842594

There several dates on it
i made mistake to look at bottom of page were normally the publication date is.
(it the reclassification Date from USAF 17 November 1965)
That document has it publication date on top right  is 6/14/60



During 1960s were several proposal for small high energy Kick stages
like Gamma, or that Lewis Research Center study
Next Lh2/LOX they look also into dangerous stuff like:
 
as oxidizer: pure Fluorine, FLOX a mixture of Oxygen with Fluorine and even Oxygen difluoride
as Fuel they look into use of Ammoniac, Methane and Diborane (B2H6) in combination of above stuff
or highly toxic CIF5/MHF-5

CIF5 is Chlorine pentafluoride,
MHF-5 is 55% Monomethylhydrazine, 26% Hydrazine and 19% Hydrazinium Nitrate,
beliefe me very very toxic stuff !

Some proposed even mini Nuclear engines... 

Source of Fuels:
Propellant Selection for Spacecraft Propulsion Systems,
Volume III: Thermodynamics and Propulsion
Volume II: Mission and vehicles
Contract NASW-1644
Lockheed, 30 August 1968


Offline Proponent

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #15 on: 02/09/2017 10:31 am »
Re the Centaur Jr. upper stage, in 1965 NASA's Future Programs Task Group produced a report (attached; see pp. 48 & 49 of the PDF) outlining the need for a 7000-lb-thrust lox/hydrogen stage to be used atop the Saturn IB/Centaur.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2017 10:32 am by Proponent »

Offline leovinus

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Re: Gamma Centaur, a 1960 study of a small Centaur atop Atlas
« Reply #16 on: 04/19/2022 03:04 pm »
Re the Centaur Jr. upper stage, in 1965 NASA's Future Programs Task Group produced a report (attached; see pp. 48 & 49 of the PDF) outlining the need for a 7000-lb-thrust lox/hydrogen stage to be used atop the Saturn IB/Centaur.

FYI, Image of the Centaur Junior at Flickr

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