Author Topic: Rotating Detonation Engines  (Read 91692 times)

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #20 on: 08/19/2021 11:14 pm »
JAXA released info about a RDWE test aboard a suborbital S-520 flight (flight 31). Nice picture of the engine firing.

They got 6 seconds of firing the RDWE (steady state after ignition?) at altitude. They were able to get larger data retrieval of the experiment via a inflatable reentry capsule ejected from the sounding rocket.

There was also a comanifested pulsejet PDE experiment, which fired 3 pulses?

https://www.isas.jaxa.jp/topics/002693.html

Offline SciNews

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #21 on: 10/12/2021 05:41 pm »
University of Alabama Huntsville - New concept for rotating detonation ramjet engine gets hypersonics funding
https://www.uah.edu/news/items/new-concept-for-rotating-detonation-ramjet-engine-gets-hypersonics-funding
Quote
Development of a new concept for a solid-fueled ramjet using a rotating detonation engine (RDE) for hypersonic air-breathing propulsion at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH), a part of the University of Alabama System, has attracted a three-year, $1.5 million grant.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #22 on: 10/12/2021 10:31 pm »
University of Alabama Huntsville - New concept for rotating detonation ramjet engine gets hypersonics funding
https://www.uah.edu/news/items/new-concept-for-rotating-detonation-ramjet-engine-gets-hypersonics-funding
Quote
Development of a new concept for a solid-fueled ramjet using a rotating detonation engine (RDE) for hypersonic air-breathing propulsion at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH), a part of the University of Alabama System, has attracted a three-year, $1.5 million grant.

That's a weird one. Using ram air heating to vaporize, but NOT burn, a special solid fuel, then feeding the vaporized fuel and air to the RDE chamber somehow. I feel like calling it a ramjet seems to be disingenuous...

Is this somewhat similar to hypersonic engine concepts where they use liquid fuel to cool the airframe and use that heat to crack/preheat the fuel?

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #23 on: 04/15/2022 01:39 am »
Japanese startup claims mixed jet/rocket mode RDE demo. PDF is light on details, but there are youtube links on the page.

https://pdas.co.jp/en/news/demonstrates-the-world-s-first-rde-based-jet-rocket-mode-switching-technology/

Offline su27k

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #24 on: 04/22/2022 03:28 am »
Rotating Detonation Engine Powers Secret Tactical Missile Program

Quote from: Aviation Week
Tests of a secret new tactical missile powered by a rotating detonation engine at the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, China Lake, California, appear to show evidence of significant recent advances in transforming this breakthrough concept into a practical high-speed propulsion system.

Offline su27k

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #25 on: 07/28/2022 05:21 am »
DARPA’s new missile hints at truly game-changing technology

Quote from: sandboxx.us
DARPA’S NEW MISSILE HINTS AT TRULY GAME-CHANGING TECHNOLOGY
Alex Hollings | July 26, 2022

Last week, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) quietly unveiled a new high-speed missile program called Gambit. The program is meant to leverage a novel method of propulsion that could have far-reaching implications not just in terms of weapons development, but for high-speed aircraft and even in how the Navy’s warships are powered.


This propulsion system, known as a rotation detonation engine (RDE), has the potential to be lighter than existing jet engines while offering a significant boost in power output, range, and fuel efficiency.

The Gambit missile is just one of a number of programs placing a renewed focus on RDE technology, though for the most part, these systems have managed to fly under the media’s radar. That is, except for Aviation Week & Space Technology Defense Editor Steve Trimble, who has covered these recent developments at length. Trimble was kind enough to discuss that work with me as I sought to better understand just how big a deal this technology could be.

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #26 on: 08/06/2022 12:34 pm »
The Rotation Detonation Engine (RDE) is like a Pulse Detonation Engine (PDE) where the detonation waves travel around in a circular path.

A year ago, Japan's space agency JAXA tested an RDE in space

https://twitter.com/nasaspaceflight/status/1428310836855050246

https://cosmos.isas.jaxa.jp/the-worlds-first-space-flight-for-the-rotating-detonation-engine-and-a-glimpse-at-a-new-sample-return-capsule/

The RDE has an annular geometry, which seems to make it naturally compatible with the annular aerospike.

But the engine seems to have a very rapid rate of erosion, which makes it less suitable for applications requiring reusability.

What then is the best application for this engine?
« Last Edit: 08/08/2022 11:20 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline su27k

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #27 on: 08/06/2022 03:12 pm »
Existing thread on RDE: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47057.0

[zubenelgenubi: Duplicate threads merged.]
« Last Edit: 08/08/2022 11:20 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #28 on: 08/06/2022 07:14 pm »
DARPA’s new missile hints at truly game-changing technology

Quote from: sandboxx.us
DARPA’S NEW MISSILE HINTS AT TRULY GAME-CHANGING TECHNOLOGY
Alex Hollings | July 26, 2022

Last week, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) quietly unveiled a new high-speed missile program called Gambit. The program is meant to leverage a novel method of propulsion that could have far-reaching implications not just in terms of weapons development, but for high-speed aircraft and even in how the Navy’s warships are powered.


This propulsion system, known as a rotation detonation engine (RDE), has the potential to be lighter than existing jet engines while offering a significant boost in power output, range, and fuel efficiency.

The Gambit missile is just one of a number of programs placing a renewed focus on RDE technology, though for the most part, these systems have managed to fly under the media’s radar. That is, except for Aviation Week & Space Technology Defense Editor Steve Trimble, who has covered these recent developments at length. Trimble was kind enough to discuss that work with me as I sought to better understand just how big a deal this technology could be.



This engine seems to suffer more rapid erosion than most -- so perhaps that's why they're trying to develop it for use in missiles, which are single-use. Seems like this engine isn't very suitable for reusability.

Offline JayWee

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #29 on: 08/06/2022 08:45 pm »
I remember Pulse Detonation engines being quite loud. Is RDE also deafeningly loud?

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #30 on: 08/08/2022 09:24 am »
I remember Pulse Detonation engines being quite loud. Is RDE also deafeningly loud?

There are a number of videos on Youtube of RDE in operation:



I'd like to know though -- what limits the size of an RDE?
With regular rocket engines, the size of the combustion chamber seems to be limited by the onset of combustion instabilities. But with RDE, we're dealing with constant volume combustion (aka. detonation) and also a different geometry.

Is there any reason why it wouldn't be possible to build an RDE that's as big as a house?
RDE are also being researched for stationary power generation, including for powerplants on naval ships which can get quite large in size.
What limits how big an RDE can get?

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #31 on: 08/16/2022 06:41 am »
I remember Pulse Detonation engines being quite loud. Is RDE also deafeningly loud?

There are a number of videos on Youtube of RDE in operation:



I'd like to know though -- what limits the size of an RDE?
With regular rocket engines, the size of the combustion chamber seems to be limited by the onset of combustion instabilities. But with RDE, we're dealing with constant volume combustion (aka. detonation) and also a different geometry.

Is there any reason why it wouldn't be possible to build an RDE that's as big as a house?
RDE are also being researched for stationary power generation, including for powerplants on naval ships which can get quite large in size.
What limits how big an RDE can get?

I get the impression the annulus needs to be quite thin to maintain control, so volume of the annulus might favor multiple chambers versus a big one? They have built race track pattern annuluses though (straight segments made of transparent material to allow videoing) but I suspect that can't scale easily.

But, it's still early days, so there isn't much work yet on concentric annulus designs, or any other alternative layouts that could take the pressure. Hrm, I wonder if is possible to rearrange the straight segment in the race track style, to resemble the half-circle waves like the edge of lasagna noodles?

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #32 on: 08/30/2022 12:29 am »
I get the impression the annulus needs to be quite thin to maintain control, so volume of the annulus might favor multiple chambers versus a big one? They have built race track pattern annuluses though (straight segments made of transparent material to allow videoing) but I suspect that can't scale easily.

But, it's still early days, so there isn't much work yet on concentric annulus designs, or any other alternative layouts that could take the pressure. Hrm, I wonder if is possible to rearrange the straight segment in the race track style, to resemble the half-circle waves like the edge of lasagna noodles?

Gee, next thing you know, we'll be looking at the Stellerator geometry  ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellarator



Is it possible to exploit Mean Free Path of gas molecules here?

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #33 on: 09/27/2022 11:14 pm »
NASA's Advanced Rotating Detonation Variant Additive Rocket Chamber (ARDVARC-ACO) program is edging up to TRL 4

https://techport.nasa.gov/view/116357

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #34 on: 09/27/2022 11:49 pm »
NASA's Advanced Rotating Detonation Variant Additive Rocket Chamber (ARDVARC-ACO) program is edging up to TRL 4

https://techport.nasa.gov/view/116357
There is a short clip of it running in this video at about 1:47

I tried it at home

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #35 on: 09/29/2022 11:45 am »

I get the impression the annulus needs to be quite thin to maintain control, so volume of the annulus might favor multiple chambers versus a big one? They have built race track pattern annuluses though (straight segments made of transparent material to allow videoing) but I suspect that can't scale easily.

But, it's still early days, so there isn't much work yet on concentric annulus designs, or any other alternative layouts that could take the pressure. Hrm, I wonder if is possible to rearrange the straight segment in the race track style, to resemble the half-circle waves like the edge of lasagna noodles?
Honestly. Not that bad. The detonation part in the name suggests things are going to be (literally) banging, but I guess a continuous detonation (can't really get my head around that concept.  :o  ) is no louder than a conventional engine with lots of supersonic flow.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline sevenperforce

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #36 on: 09/30/2022 06:30 pm »
There's an image from Univeristy of Central Florida showing the rough layout. Interesting that the fixed radius segment of the ignition annulus is so short. I would have expected a longer fixed radius cylinder section before the transition down the chamber to the throat/nozzle for containing/managing the rotating wave.

Presumably if the supersonic shockwave is doing the work of compressing the mixed propellants, it won't need nearly as much injector pressure, right?

I'm imagining that this could allow very beefy engines powered by only the simplest of expander cycles.

Offline edzieba

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #37 on: 10/01/2022 11:02 am »
A presentation on that very subject:

Offline InterestedEngineer

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #38 on: 10/14/2022 07:50 pm »
Any idea what the theoretical thrust density of a DW engine can be?

Raptor2 has an exhaust pressure of just over 7MPa  (2.2MN/*(0.67m/2)^2*pi), which is incredible thrust density but what is needed to get the necessary TWR figures for operation deep in a gravity well.

If DW engine can't get that kind of thrust density they will be relegated to work outside gravity wells (e.g. second stage or in orbit).

If they can get that density with a 1atm Isp of 350 and a vacuum Isp of 410 (aka 10% increase per article), that increases the Starship payload capability by about 50%, not including the factor that DW engines should be lighter.

(assuming DW engines can use Methalox.    What are they using on the NASA project?  Some prototypes are KeroLox)

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #39 on: 10/14/2022 08:26 pm »
But getting back to the issue of engine life vs wear-and-tear, isn't this design inherently going to be more prone to erosion?

We can see that the circular travel of the detonation wave is a cyclical behavior, causing cyclical stresses. Those in turn would lead to more erosion compared to a rocket engine producing thrust under steady-state conditions.

But it does seem to be naturally compatible with the aerospike nozzle.

 

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