Author Topic: Rotating Detonation Engines  (Read 93088 times)

Offline SciNews

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Rotating Detonation Engines
« on: 12/27/2018 07:04 pm »
WIRED: Rotating Detonation Engines Could Propel Hypersonic Flight https://www.wired.com/story/rotating-detonation-engine/
Quote
The rotating detonation engine, though, might someday offer both high velocity and decent fuel economy. The engine’s awesome name pretty much describes how the thing works. The engine’s detonation chamber is essentially a thin, hollow cylinder (actually, it’s the thin, hollow space between two concentric cylinders, if you want to get specific). The engine sets off a detonation using the usual means—fuel, oxygen, pressure, heat—which sends a shockwave chasing itself through the cylindrical loop. Imagine a movie scene where the heroes are running away from an explosion then get knocked forward by the shockwave. A rotating detonation engine traps that shockwave in an endless loop, using it to repeatedly jumpstart new detonations.

Offline RonM

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #1 on: 12/27/2018 07:44 pm »
Sounds like an updated version of the WWII German V-1 "Buzz Bomb" pulse jet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsejet

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #2 on: 12/27/2018 10:07 pm »
Sounds like an updated version of the WWII German V-1 "Buzz Bomb" pulse jet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsejet
A very nice one though. This link might be closer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_detonation_engine

The links mention the possibility of working across a bunch of different regimes. I wonder if this could replace jet turbines completely. Jets that work up to scram speeds AND all the speeds below, and no turbines. Not just better, probably cheaper without that turbine.. maybe even more forgiving to sucking in the occasional seagull! :)

edit: Also found this wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_detonation_engine
« Last Edit: 12/28/2018 03:29 am by KelvinZero »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #3 on: 12/28/2018 12:27 am »
I have been hearing/reading about this for at least 30 years and so far it has gone nowhere. I am not quite sure why that is. One guess I have is that the noise and vibrations are a problem.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2018 12:28 am by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline Cinder

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #4 on: 12/28/2018 09:28 am »
I have been hearing/reading about this for at least 30 years and so far it has gone nowhere. I am not quite sure why that is. One guess I have is that the noise and vibrations are a problem.
Is that the same as the rumor of project Aurora? Is there any substance to that? I only heard the rumor myself, I have nothing else to base myself on.  No idea where it is on the quack scale.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2018 09:29 am by Cinder »
NEC ULTIMA SI PRIOR

Offline MikeAtkinson

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #5 on: 12/28/2018 11:47 am »
This seems similar to but not identical to pulse detonation engines as rumoured to be used in Aurora.

Instead of the detonation flowing down a tube it continuously flows round a cylinder.

It will be inefficient for slow speed flight and very noisy.

Offline SciNews

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #6 on: 12/28/2018 02:19 pm »
Articles from last year
Advances made toward rotating detonation engines https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/year-in-review/advances-made-toward-rotating-detonation-engines/
China reveals hypersonic scramjet developments and plans https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/04/china-reveals-hypersonic-scramjet-developments-and-plans.html
and 2018 International Workshop on Detonation for Propulsion (IWDP 2018) http://iwdp2018.scievent.com/program.html

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #7 on: 12/31/2018 06:05 am »
I have been hearing/reading about this for at least 30 years and so far it has gone nowhere. I am not quite sure why that is. One guess I have is that the noise and vibrations are a problem.
Indeed.

That said a little PDE has flown on an actual crewed aircraft test in the late 00's.

But RPDE's seem further away from flight demonstration than SCramjets.

The challenge is 4 fold.
1) Turn a deflagration (combustion) into a detonation (a "bang")
2) Make it travel in 1 direction around a cylinder without "flaming out, preferably at an angle.
3) Re supply it with propellant
4) Try and not make it incredibly loud.

There seems to be a deep law of the universe that the complexity of an engines thermo and fluid dynamics rise exponentially as its mechanical complexity falls. Superficially ram/SCramjets, PDE's and RPDE's are the simplest of structures (literally bits of pipe), but explaining their behavior, and working out how to improve it, have proved phenomenally difficult.  :(

I won't be waiting to buy a ticket on any of this hardware any time soon.
« Last Edit: 05/05/2020 06:20 am by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline sanman

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #8 on: 01/06/2019 04:49 pm »
I have been hearing/reading about this for at least 30 years and so far it has gone nowhere. I am not quite sure why that is. One guess I have is that the noise and vibrations are a problem.

I remember reading another problem - the efficiency would go down as the ambient pressure went down. This was due to the fact that ambient pressure was needed to fully purge out the exhaust gases and bring in fresh oxidizer to mix with the fuel for the next detonation.

Plus I even remember people here saying that because it's a pulsed process instead of a steady state one, then you have to overbuild the structure to withstand the peak pulse loads, which incurs a mass penalty.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #9 on: 01/07/2019 06:52 am »
Plus I even remember people here saying that because it's a pulsed process instead of a steady state one, then you have to overbuild the structure to withstand the peak pulse loads, which incurs a mass penalty.
Yep!

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #10 on: 01/07/2019 10:01 pm »
I get the impression that the initial aim is a replacement for land based turbine combustor cans, which is less weight sensitive and can handle auxiliary support needs.

The video showing the wave running in circles is interesting as it shows two waves running at 180 degrees offset around the annulus. This suggests some balancing needs?

That said, if what Aerojet is saying is true, that mere geometry is making things easier with the diffuser and to an extent the inputs, there might be some throttle limits here since it isn't variable geometry.(yet, I suppose tricks using a sliding cone/cylinder/pole setup could allow a degree of adaptability)

Offline SciNews

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #11 on: 05/05/2020 05:56 am »
University of Central Florida: UCF Researchers Develop Groundbreaking New Rocket-Propulsion System https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-develop-groundbreaking-new-rocket-propulsion-system/
Quote
The rotating detonations are continuous, Mach 5 explosions that rotate around the inside of a rocket engine, and the explosions are sustained by feeding hydrogen and oxygen propellant into the system at just the right amounts.
Study published in Combustion and Flame - Experimental evidence of H2/O2 propellants powered rotating detonation waves https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.combustflame.2019.12.031

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #12 on: 05/05/2020 06:22 am »
University of Central Florida: UCF Researchers Develop Groundbreaking New Rocket-Propulsion System https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researchers-develop-groundbreaking-new-rocket-propulsion-system/
Quote
The rotating detonations are continuous, Mach 5 explosions that rotate around the inside of a rocket engine, and the explosions are sustained by feeding hydrogen and oxygen propellant into the system at just the right amounts.
Study published in Combustion and Flame - Experimental evidence of H2/O2 propellants powered rotating detonation waves https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.combustflame.2019.12.031
Intriguing certainly.

But if efficiency drops wit ambient pressure its use as a rocket US s going to be limited.

Also from the notes it suggest the engine would have to be continuously adjusted to track ambient pressure fall.

Still won't expect to buy a ticket on this anytime soon.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline gojira

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #13 on: 05/05/2020 08:33 pm »


It is the best engine since sliced bread. Mach 8+.
Supposedly.
It might be louder than a banshee though.
It is a shame the examples we have in the real world are nothing close to the ones in the game above.
But who knows, TIE (Twin Ion Engine) Fighters were on sci-fi at one point and now they are used in satellites en masse.
Starlink uses ion engines for example.
« Last Edit: 05/05/2020 08:36 pm by gojira »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #14 on: 05/06/2020 05:52 am »


It is the best engine since sliced bread. Mach 8+.
Supposedly.
It might be louder than a banshee though.
It is a shame the examples we have in the real world are nothing close to the ones in the game above.
But who knows, TIE (Twin Ion Engine) Fighters were on sci-fi at one point and now they are used in satellites en masse.
Starlink uses ion engines for example.
Welcome to the forum.

Inside a computer anything is possible. IRL we are constrained by physics and chemistry.

And high thrust ion engines are likely to remain in SF. 
A real high thrust ion engine puts out (NEXT) puts out 236 miliNewtons of thrust using 6.9Kw.
A 20 000lb jet engine (not unreasonable for a jet fighter) 90 000N, about 380 000x more.

So if you can build a power source that puts out 2.622GW (that's in nuclear thermal reactor territory) but weighs less than 2000lb (909Kg) then you can have your aircraft powered by an ion engine.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #15 on: 05/09/2020 01:19 am »
There's an image from Univeristy of Central Florida showing the rough layout. Interesting that the fixed radius segment of the ignition annulus is so short. I would have expected a longer fixed radius cylinder section before the transition down the chamber to the throat/nozzle for containing/managing the rotating wave.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2020 01:22 am by Asteroza »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #16 on: 05/09/2020 05:50 am »
WIRED: Rotating Detonation Engines Could Propel Hypersonic Flight https://www.wired.com/story/rotating-detonation-engine/
Author has no idea of difference between turbjet and turbofan.
Author has no idea how concorde got through sound barrier.

Assume author has little idea what they are talking about.

If you don't know the basics it's doubtful you'll know what you're looking at with an advanced engine.  :(
Hint. All normal burning is combustion. Getting a burn to turn into a detonation is hard.

The attractive parts of this engine are a) No moving parts, like a SCramjet b)Better understood physics than an SCramjet (maybe?) c)Able to run from zero forward speed.

I'm not expecting to be buying a ticket for anything being driven by this for a decade or more.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2020 06:02 am by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline WulfTheSaxon

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #17 on: 05/11/2020 12:56 am »
New Atlas and Digital Trends are reporting that UCF and the Air Force are working on some sort of 2025 flight test:

Quote from: New Atlas
Ahmed tells us this engine design is being evaluated as a possible replacement for Aerojet Rocketdyne's RL-10 rocket, which was first developed in 1962. Modern versions are still in production for the upper stages of Atlas V and Delta IV rockets, with further versions under development for the Exploration, OmegA and Vulcan rockets, but a proven rotating detonation rocket engine could be a real game-changer.

"The U.S. Air Force is targeting a rocket launch flight test by 2025," says Ahmed, "and we are contributing to achieving that goal."

Quote from: Digital Trends
So far, the research has remained strictly ground-based, performed at UCF’s Propulsion and Energy Research Laboratory. The work has been supported by funding from the U.S. Air Force Office of Scientific Research. But don’t expect it to stay Earthbound forever — although it may still be a while before a completed rocket with this propulsion system makes it to the stars.

“We are going through a strategic path forward for technological development,” Ahmed said. “The U.S. Air Force is targeting … a rocket launch flight test by 2025, which we are contributing to.”

I’m curious what exactly it is that they plan on flight testing… Are they just going to stick the current 200 lbf engine on a sounding rocket – or will they be attempting to upscale it?
« Last Edit: 05/11/2020 01:19 am by WulfTheSaxon »

Offline aero

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #18 on: 05/12/2020 03:21 am »
Do we know an ISP estimate for this experimental engine?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline RonM

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Re: Rotating Detonation Engines
« Reply #19 on: 05/12/2020 05:05 am »


 

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