Author Topic: Lifesupport System in Outer Space  (Read 20619 times)

Offline doge

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Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« on: 09/06/2014 06:01 am »
How are we supposed to produce water in space. We have oxygen from photosynthetic bacteria and are thinking of sustaining life on a lifeless, barren planet with no resources pertaining to human life. Specifically, hydrogen and water.

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #1 on: 09/06/2014 11:00 am »
What!? Please be more coherent.
Welcome to the forum, I think.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #2 on: 09/06/2014 01:44 pm »
Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, oxygen is the third most common (after helium). The moon is about 40% oxygen, though tightly chemically bound to other elements.

Mars has very large amounts of water. It has poles which are kilometers deep in ice. It has surface ice in craters well away from the poles. It has evidence of ice just below the surface, in permafrost and buried glaciers in other places.

The moon is very dry in general, but has evidence of a few percent of ice mixed in with the regolith in certain areas at the lunar poles. Probably plenty to get started with.

Going further out, the solar system is littered with icy bodies. Ceres, the largest object in the asteroid belt, is expected to have a layer of ice about 200km deep. Europa is expected to have a liquid water ocean under its ice crust. Beyond a certain distance from the sun almost all the bodies will contain ice, I expect. The water on earth is believed to have come from a bombardment of comets from the outer solar system.

Offline doge

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #3 on: 09/06/2014 04:39 pm »
We are supposed to colonize space. Suppose the moon. (Note: No Cycler option, simple human colony). Problem arises in the production of water. How would you suggest we establish a sustainable water cycle on the moon ?

Offline doge

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #4 on: 09/06/2014 04:44 pm »
What!? Please be more coherent.
Welcome to the forum, I think.
Um, sorry, i'm not used to forums, so i probably lack the accepted etiquette. You see, we are to colonize space.
We have photosynthetic bacteria  for oxygen, solar power for almost all energy production, IF we get hydrogen, we can use a hydrogen fuel cell and get water as a byproduct, but that one is a bit out of hand. 
We have assumed that there wont be 100% water recycling from human beings and that it will be used up by the plants in the lab like green house. On the moon, how would we establish a self sustaining supply of water? and in doing so, establish a water cycle.

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #5 on: 09/06/2014 06:50 pm »
We would extract it from regolith.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #6 on: 09/10/2014 01:04 am »
We are supposed to colonize space. Suppose the moon. (Note: No Cycler option, simple human colony). Problem arises in the production of water. How would you suggest we establish a sustainable water cycle on the moon ?

Recycling? Already being done on ISS to a degree... But any mission longer than a couple of months will have to be close to a closed loop system, where as much as possible is recycled. Water is one of the easiest things to recycle.

If a colony is established on an arid body, that will have to be scaled up.

Offline pathfinder_01

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #7 on: 09/10/2014 02:45 am »
Water itself in the form of ice is pretty common in places like the lunar poles. It also can be shipped in and recycled. The ISS can recycle both water and recapture oxygen from CO2 via turning the C02 into methane.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #8 on: 09/10/2014 07:28 am »
We are supposed to colonize space. Suppose the moon. (Note: No Cycler option, simple human colony). Problem arises in the production of water. How would you suggest we establish a sustainable water cycle on the moon ?

Recycling? Already being done on ISS to a degree... But any mission longer than a couple of months will have to be close to a closed loop system, where as much as possible is recycled. Water is one of the easiest things to recycle.

If a colony is established on an arid body, that will have to be scaled up.

recycling of O2 and H2O on the ISS is already at ~90%.  This is good enough for ferry missions and more than good enough for Mars.  Very high closures are hard to achieve and may not be worth it initially.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Nilof

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #9 on: 09/10/2014 05:38 pm »
Oxygen in particular is everywhere. Architectures that include local industries on the Moon, Mars, or the asteroids tend to produce massive ammounts of it as a waste product. Hydrogen is very common in most places, except for some asteroids and most of the surface of our Moon, though there's likely quite a lot of it at the poles. Ditto for Carbon.

As for reuse, hydrogen and oxygen reuse tends to be rather trivial. Reusing carbon and nitrogen by turning CO2 and nitrogen back into food is somewhat harder but closed loops are perfectly possible with space agriculture.

If we ever go for large scale colonization of anything, I believe aquiring nitrogen to fill living space with air is probably going to be one of the harder issues to solve. Once you make structures large enough, the mass of the air inside them tends to increase very rapidly. For O'Neill cylinders or martian air-filled domes, the air inside constitutes the majority of the total mass, and while finding the oxygen to fill them tends to be easy, making nitrogen in large enough quantities for use as a buffer gas tends to be a harder problem to solve. Even for small colonies it can be a bottleneck as it is needed to make fertilizer.

That's for the inner solar system. The outer solar system is very rich in volatiles of all kinds. A colony there would likely never be limited by chemical elements, and is more likely to be limited by energy requirements and travel time.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2014 05:41 pm by Nilof »
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #10 on: 09/11/2014 06:58 am »
recycling of O2 and H2O on the ISS is already at ~90%.  This is good enough for ferry missions and more than good enough for Mars.  Very high closures are hard to achieve and may not be worth it initially.

Are you sure about the 90% on the ISS? My understanding was that 50% of the oxygen comes from eletrolysis of water. The produced hydrogen is then used in a Sabatier process to get the other 50%  from waste CO2. The produced methane is then dumped outside.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #11 on: 09/11/2014 07:04 am »
If we ever go for large scale colonization of anything, I believe aquiring nitrogen to fill living space with air is probably going to be one of the harder issues to solve. Once you make structures large enough, the mass of the air inside them tends to increase very rapidly. For O'Neill cylinders or martian air-filled domes, the air inside constitutes the majority of the total mass, and while finding the oxygen to fill them tends to be easy, making nitrogen in large enough quantities for use as a buffer gas tends to be a harder problem to solve. Even for small colonies it can be a bottleneck as it is needed to make fertilizer.

On Mars nitrogen is part of the air and is easily obtained in required amounts. Especially with large scale fuel ISRU for return flights to the earth, nitrogen will be a byproduct, probably in amounts far exceeding need for fertilizer and air. Even oxygen will likely be the same. Rocket engines are run fuel rich and the fuel production process produces O2 in stochiometric proportion to methane. So large amounts of oxygen will be produced in excess just as nitrogen.

On other places in the inner solar system I agree.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #12 on: 09/11/2014 08:01 am »
If we ever go for large scale colonization of anything, I believe aquiring nitrogen to fill living space with air is probably going to be one of the harder issues to solve.
I think the martian atmosphere is about 3% nitrogen. We don't seem to need it in our breathing air and there would be a couple of huge advantages of omitting it: reducing base structural stresses by a factor of 3, the ability to step straight from base to rover to suit without prebreathing.

It does seem sort of incredible that about 75% of the atmosphere we evolved in could be omitted without any bad side effects but we have discussed it here a few times and Im not aware of anyone producing evidence for it.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #13 on: 09/11/2014 08:20 am »
If we ever go for large scale colonization of anything, I believe aquiring nitrogen to fill living space with air is probably going to be one of the harder issues to solve.
I think the martian atmosphere is about 3% nitrogen. We don't seem to need it in our breathing air and there would be a couple of huge advantages of omitting it: reducing base structural stresses by a factor of 3, the ability to step straight from base to rover to suit without prebreathing.

It does seem sort of incredible that about 75% of the atmosphere we evolved in could be omitted without any bad side effects but we have discussed it here a few times and Im not aware of anyone producing evidence for it.

Yes it has been discussed on this forum. No evidence that a nitrogen componenent is needed was presented. It may well be a good option for a research station with a scientific crew. Nevertheless it will need more than that for me to be convinced that it is the best solution for a colony, where everyone from pregnant women to newborns to the disabled and sick needs to live under those conditions. I am sure, data are out there even if we don't know them. If not work on the matter needs to be done.

Data to validate or invalidate my or your position.


Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #14 on: 09/11/2014 02:42 pm »
ask the poor spouses of the Apollo crew that got incinerated in their capsule if there is no drawback to omitting nitrogen from their air. There is at least one: living without diluting gases in an oxygen environment will kill you sooner or later especially as so many things that have to be done will generate an ignition source.

and i also vaguely recall that pure o2 damages biological tissue in various ways. I don't recall from where i read that but that is the feeling i get from the vast swamp of my memory. :)
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Offline hopalong

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #15 on: 09/11/2014 03:46 pm »
In my personal view, the atmosphere should be as close to earth standard as we can reasonability manage. We do not need 1000Mb pressure, something in the order of 800Mb (Say Denver) will be fine for 99% of people (I am an overweight asthmatic, I was fine in Denver, a tad uncomfortable at the top of Pikes Peak). The percentage of oxygen can always be increased by a point or two.

 Having a ‘high’ pressure environment does give extra engineering difficulties, but I think it would be worth it for the following reasons –

It is what we evolved to live in.
Sound travels well – I remember that they had issues in Skylab with hearing each other (Skylab used low pressure 100% oxygen).
Cooking – water still boils at high enough temperature to cook things @93’C
Nitrogen is needed as a buffer gas.
Many plants need nitrogen in the air to grow – people will want plants around them and not just in the CO2 rich greenhouses.


Offline momerathe

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #16 on: 09/11/2014 04:04 pm »
ask the poor spouses of the Apollo crew that got incinerated in their capsule if there is no drawback to omitting nitrogen from their air. There is at least one: living without diluting gases in an oxygen environment will kill you sooner or later especially as so many things that have to be done will generate an ignition source.

and i also vaguely recall that pure o2 damages biological tissue in various ways. I don't recall from where i read that but that is the feeling i get from the vast swamp of my memory. :)

Oxygen toxicity is related to the partial pressure; a low-pressure-pure-oxygen atmosphere has no demonstrated adverse health effects.

The same applies to fire hazards - Apollo 1 had a pure-oxygen atmosphere at above atmospheric pressure
thermodynamics will get you in the end

Offline Nilof

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #17 on: 09/12/2014 12:26 am »
The apollo missions all used pure oxygen atmospheres at one third of sea level pressure. The issue with apollo one was that the inside of the capsule had to be pressurized at above sea level pressure before launch, and on the first mission they used pure oxygen for that, which went horribly. Later missions had the capsule pressurized with regular air which was steadily vented during ascent. When the astronauts removed their helmets most of the nitrogen would be gone. They still breathed pure oxygen inside their suits before and during the launch to avoid the bends as the pressure decreased during launch.

The pure oxygen atmosphere did cause some problems with oxygen toxicity though. Skylab used the same pressure as the apollo capsule(since the two had to dock) but it used a mixed atmosphere with about two thirds oxygen and one third nitrogen.

The one-third to one half of sea level pressure range is probably the sweet spot for medium-term habitats since it allows for fast EVA's without decompression. A higher pressure is a luxury, but on the other hand it is likely to be a rather desired one. Less water evaporating from membranes in your body, an improved sense of taste, better hearing ect ect. Future colonists are likely to want to spend some time in higher pressure environments.
« Last Edit: 09/15/2014 10:52 am by Nilof »
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #18 on: 09/12/2014 01:33 am »
As an aside, I have this pet SF idea that air pressure becomes a class status thing (this was on the moon though)
Earth sealevel pressure in the cities, for white collar workers and people who are "loyalists". Blue collar workers live in the lower pressure pure oxygen environment. It creates a huge class division because passing from one side to the other (at least from high to low) is as bothersome as taking an international trip on earth.

Whenever I see discussions like this it just makes me think about what we should be doing right now. There are several issues that would be addressed by a DSH prototype attached to the ISS. Multi-year experience in pure oxygen could just be one of them. Some of these things will just take time, but we have that time. We have at least ten years to prepare for the first two year mars mission.

The only thing Im really worried about is that in ten years time we will still have think big plans for mars but have made no more attempt to answer these basic questions that can be investigated in LEO or even without leaving earth.

Offline hop

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #19 on: 09/12/2014 09:14 pm »
a low-pressure-pure-oxygen atmosphere has no demonstrated adverse health effects.

The same applies to fire hazards
This is not really correct. ~4 PSI pure oxygen is far safer than 17 PSI, but it's not the same as air. To sustain combustion in air, you need to heat up a bunch of effectively inert nitrogen. Similarly, the heath issues aren't as cut and dried as you suggest. See the references in this old post http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26898.msg814693#msg814693

I'd still put my money on a pressure similar to inhabited altitudes on Earth (e.g Denver or a bit above) with a modestly elevated O2 fraction. The benefits of going to greater extremes don't appear to be very compelling.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #20 on: 09/12/2014 10:44 pm »
Nice link, I had forgotten half of that.

Im not making any prediction of what the truth turns out to be, I just think pure oxygen should keep being investigated until we can exclude it. After issues are identified we should also take time to investigate mitigation.

(Im not thinking so much in terms of near term missions, but how we could be living several decades from now)

Issues I am aware of:
(*) Increased fire risk in low pressure pure oxygen due to heat all going into reactants, none into inert nitrogen.
(*) Reduced ability to carry sound in low air pressure, verbal communication affected.
(*) Water boils at a lower temperature due to low air pressure. Basic activities like boiling an egg may have to be rethought.
(*) Harsher on skin? I guess this is to do with water evaporating easier?

People on the moon may be living in an environment where nitrogen is a commodity, flammable carbon-based materials like paper are both a commodity and dangerous to leave lying around - more ipads, less clutter. Bluetooth-style earpieces used habitually. Microwave ovens that are also pressure cookers, full body moisturizing spray part of daily routine, perhaps even inhalers to protect lungs.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #21 on: 09/13/2014 02:39 am »
...or you could just suck up any inconveniences and import or produce nitrogen. The society technologically rich enough to do space colonization won't be incapable of handling bringing or procuring nitrogen. :)
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #22 on: 09/13/2014 08:40 am »
I suspect you haven't followed the conversation. Imagine the end of the movie Alien if Ripley had to spend ten hours prebreathing, or even 40 minutes. Thats not the future I want.

It might not be avoidable, but why grasp at it with both hands?

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #23 on: 09/13/2014 02:02 pm »
In my opinion nitrogen's benefits outweigh the drawbacks and with proper technological support only becomes a problem on the host world. EVAs by humans on a long duration flight could be rare with telepresence and robotics.

On a colony a portion of the habitat can be sectioned off as facilities and dorms for personnel scheduled for outside work. the whole section can have different pressures and gas mixes than the bulk of the colony. No matter how small or spartan the initial colony is you cant live in septic tank sized tin cans for the rest of your life. eventually the colonies if they are to be permanent will have to be large to huge.

The "EVA" sections could easily have a separate air handling system and be roomy enough for dorms exercise areas, personal hygiene and toilet areas, modest morale facilities, a duty medic and other support staff, the EVA crew and so forth. people scheduled for routine EVA can cycle into the EVA facility as temporary housing perform their duties and rotate out into the bulk of the colony as dictated by the facilites population and pools for specialties that need to be outside. with a large population EVA duty might last as little as a few days to several months depending on how many people are available in colony to perform each EVA task. If it is large enough to allow enclaves (corporate, etc) then each organization might have it's own EVA facilities. it might be absolutely required when the colony is establishing industries of it's own which is necessary for self sufficiency.

in my opinion the "one way trip to Mars" folks plans are unworkable as currently envisioned. no one will spend 40, 50 or 60 years on mars in a shipping container sized facility no matter how much they may profess to want to before the fact. Colonies will be big or they will not be permanent. period.
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Offline hop

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #24 on: 09/13/2014 08:40 pm »
I suspect you haven't followed the conversation. Imagine the end of the movie Alien if Ripley had to spend ten hours prebreathing, or even 40 minutes. Thats not the future I want.
Maybe at some time in the far future there will be space suits and airlocks you can just jump into and go, but the real world has a habit of not conforming to sci-fi expectations...

In reality, EVA prep takes a lot more than 40 minutes anyway, and as I described in that earlier post, you can get pre-breath to that or lower without getting anywhere close to pure O2. Something like 0.6 bar (= ~4 km altitude), 35% O2 should get you to zero pre-breath with Orlan like suit pressure. Even if you normally run your suits at lower pressure for greater mobility, this could be used in contingencies if you need to get out fast. Or you could accept a higher risk of the bends.

The links from that post seem to be dead. Here's a PDF of the eic017 doc (from here)
It touches on a lot of the topics discussed in this thread.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #25 on: 09/13/2014 08:49 pm »
bah! ;)

actually the Russians solved this long ago and at least one advanced space suit design is out there that does not require pre-breathing or exercises. it has a hatch in the back and can be attached on the exterior of a space RV (I mean big rover) or presumably the exteriors of colony habitats. how is that science fiction? They know they can do it. it has been done to a degree by the Russians. there are no tech or physics show stoppers for just building them.
« Last Edit: 09/13/2014 08:51 pm by Stormbringer »
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Offline hop

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #26 on: 09/13/2014 09:02 pm »
actually the Russians solved this long ago and at least one advanced space suit design is out there that does not require pre-breathing or exercises. it has a hatch in the back and can be attached on the exterior of a space RV (I mean big rover) or presumably the exteriors of colony habitats. how is that science fiction? They know they can do it. it has been done to a degree by the Russians. there are no tech or physics show stoppers for just building them.
I'm not sure what you are referring to, but the suit they actually use requires pre-breath, albeit as less than an EMU. The trade off is more mass and less mobility.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #27 on: 09/13/2014 09:44 pm »
ask the poor spouses of the Apollo crew that got incinerated in their capsule if there is no drawback to omitting nitrogen from their air. There is at least one: living without diluting gases in an oxygen environment will kill you sooner or later especially as so many things that have to be done will generate an ignition source.

and i also vaguely recall that pure o2 damages biological tissue in various ways. I don't recall from where i read that but that is the feeling i get from the vast swamp of my memory. :)
Yeah, that's ridiculous. The Apollo fire, the pure O2, all of those risks come from PARTIAL PRESSURE, not really the lack of nitrogen. (Edited for clarity)

A buffer gas can reduce risk of fire, but only by a little bit. Vast majority of effect is due to higher partial pressure of oxygen in the Apollo 1 capsule. Operating with lower-than-sea-level oxygen partial pressure also reduces the fire risk, perhaps even greater than a buffer gas, plus it increases pressure vessel safety.

Appealing to "widows of the astronauts" is a just shameless emotional ploy. Pointless in this sort of discussion. There's absolutely no reason to be at 15psi oxygen partial pressure on Mars.

And really, operating at higher pressures (i.e. the buffer gas adding to the pressure) means your tissue has higher concentration of nitrogen (or argon or whathaveyou) so you're at much greater risk of the bends in case of explosive decompression and being able to get into a space suit is also harder, with movement more difficult (other things being equal) if you operate at higher pressure thus increasing the risk of making more "widows". Also, for the same pressure vessel, you're at much greater risk of structural failure if you add in a whole bunch of buffer gas.

There's a reason why they stayed with pure O2 on Apollo (once in orbit), just starting with standard atmospheric nitrogen mix when sitting on the pad so the partial pressure of oxygen wasn't too high.

There's nothing special about nitrogen gas unless you're a nitrogen-fixing bacteria. /Might/ make sense to add a couple psi of buffer gas, but the idea that we have to have as much as sea level seems ridiculous to me.
« Last Edit: 09/13/2014 11:40 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #28 on: 09/13/2014 09:55 pm »
In my opinion nitrogen's benefits ...
What benefits (plural)? I only see one (singular): a slight reduction in fire risk.

Reduced fire risk can also be had by operating at lower oxygen partial pressure (like at Denver or so) while ALSO letting you improve pressure vessel safety.

I see LOADS of drawbacks for using sea-level-like nitrogen levels, including a roughly linear increase in restraint layer mass (or a great reduction in safety for the same pressure vessel mass), increased risk of explosive decompression/the bends, more complicated ECLSS, more difficult EVAs (with heavier spacesuits), more expensive ISRU, etc.

Further in the future, Mars will probably NEVER have 15psi surface pressure, but early terraforming will start out at 1psi or so. If colonists are already used to living at lower oxygen partial pressure, then adapting to the lower pressure of early-terraformed-Mars will be much easier. So not only are there LOTS of early-stage reasons for getting used to less-than-sea-level nitrogen levels, there are many very long-term reasons as well.


And really, doesn't matter what you or I think about the issue. Colonists will be motivated by pragmatism to live at the lowest practicable pressures even if they land 15 psi habs at first. I mean, lots of people don't live at 15psi even on Earth (many live at 10, even 8psi high in the Andes).
« Last Edit: 09/13/2014 10:04 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #29 on: 09/13/2014 09:57 pm »
And all of this is basically off-topic. But here's an on-topic thought:

I now find it funny that in scifi, aliens are trying to steal Earth's water. How did they miss all the other icy bodies in the solar system with far greater amounts of water (liquid or otherwise, take your pick) and lower delta-v to get to them? Also, those icy bodies aren't inhabited by pesky little humans with nukes and viruses and other irritants. ;)
« Last Edit: 09/13/2014 09:59 pm by Robotbeat »
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To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #30 on: 09/13/2014 10:58 pm »
ask the poor spouses of the Apollo crew that got incinerated in their capsule if there is no drawback to omitting nitrogen from their air. There is at least one: living without diluting gases in an oxygen environment will kill you sooner or later especially as so many things that have to be done will generate an ignition source.

and i also vaguely recall that pure o2 damages biological tissue in various ways. I don't recall from where i read that but that is the feeling i get from the vast swamp of my memory. :)
Yeah, that's ridiculous. The Apollo fire, the pure O2, all of those risks come from PARTIAL PRESSURE, not the nitrogen.

A buffer gas can reduce risk of fire, but only by a little bit. Vast majority of effect is due to higher partial pressure of oxygen in the Apollo 1 capsule. Operating with lower-than-sea-level oxygen partial pressure also reduces the fire risk, perhaps even greater than a buffer gas, plus it increases pressure vessel safety.

Appealing to "widows of the astronauts" is a just shameless emotional ploy. Pointless in this sort of discussion. There's absolutely no reason to be at 15psi oxygen partial pressure on Mars.

And really, operating at higher pressures (i.e. the buffer gas adding to the pressure) means your tissue has higher concentration of nitrogen (or argon or whathaveyou) so you're at much greater risk of the bends in case of explosive decompression and being able to get into a space suit is also harder, with movement more difficult (other things being equal) if you operate at higher pressure thus increasing the risk of making more "widows". Also, for the same pressure vessel, you're at much greater risk of structural failure if you add in a whole bunch of buffer gas.

There's a reason why they stayed with pure O2 on Apollo (once in orbit), just starting with standard atmospheric nitrogen mix when sitting on the pad so the partial pressure of oxygen wasn't too high.

There's nothing special about nitrogen gas unless you're a nitrogen-fixing bacteria. /Might/ make sense to add a couple psi of buffer gas, but the idea that we have to have as much as sea level seems ridiculous to me.

how do you get that I was arguing against nitrogen in the cite? as to the rest YMMV.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #31 on: 09/13/2014 11:10 pm »
And all of this is basically off-topic. But here's an on-topic thought:

I now find it funny that in scifi, aliens are trying to steal Earth's water. How did they miss all the other icy bodies in the solar system with far greater amounts of water (liquid or otherwise, take your pick) and lower delta-v to get to them? Also, those icy bodies aren't inhabited by pesky little humans with nukes and viruses and other irritants. ;)

A. it's in the script.
B. in almost any literary genre you need a conflict and the writers are probably not experts in the actual facts or more interested in the facts than good or adequate plot devices. Lucas did not care that manual gunnery can't target fast moving fighters whether they are going 400 MPH or 50K MPH. he just thought it would look cool and excite the reader and later the audience.  even in the most rigorous of hard sci fi you usually find science errors or hand wavium. after all a 400 page story about the dreary lives of lonely astronauts on a generation ship isn't going to sell well.

day 3452: I took a poop in the zero G toilet. I thought I was going to die...also,  i found a noodle fragment in the ventilation filter again. must disinfect. it's starting to smell...
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Offline hop

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #32 on: 09/13/2014 11:23 pm »
What benefits (plural)? I only see one (singular): a slight reduction in fire risk.
Read the PDF I posted. As ever in aerospace, things are more complicated than simple first order estimate might suggest.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #33 on: 09/14/2014 08:34 am »
What benefits (plural)? I only see one (singular): a slight reduction in fire risk.
Read the PDF I posted. As ever in aerospace, things are more complicated than simple first order estimate might suggest.

Nice find! Going through it now.. found this one:

Some investigations have reported that an inert diluent gas is helpful in preventing atelectasis, the collapse of small air sacs in the lung which may occur due to the aborbtion of all the oxygen in less ventilated sacs.

but it doesn't seem conclusive and does not clarify how serious. Certainly something like this might emerge as a show stopper with more testing.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #34 on: 09/14/2014 08:58 am »

Nice find! Going through it now.. found this one:

Some investigations have reported that an inert diluent gas is helpful in preventing atelectasis, the collapse of small air sacs in the lung which may occur due to the aborbtion of all the oxygen in less ventilated sacs.

but it doesn't seem conclusive and does not clarify how serious. Certainly something like this might emerge as a show stopper with more testing.

I think the atelectasis reference applies to high oxygen content under high pressure, as in increased partial oxygen pressure.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #35 on: 09/14/2014 09:22 am »
For long term settlement I think cooking needs to be possible under normal conditions without using pressure cookers. As potatoes, noodles and other starchy items need ~85°C for cooking 9 to 10 psi are desireable IMO.

See this table for pressure vs. cooking temperature.



BTW Argon as a filler gas should be avoided on Mars. I found on wikipedia that it has much higher solubility than nitrogen, probably increasing prebreathing requirements.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #36 on: 09/14/2014 12:08 pm »
I think the atelectasis reference applies to high oxygen content under high pressure, as in increased partial oxygen pressure.
I was reading it as saying that oxygen was absorbed more easily, but nitrogen would be somewhat left behind, stopping the tiny air sac completely collapsing. It was under a heading "Diluent Gas", discussing nitrogen vs other choices such as helium etc.

Offline MP99

Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #37 on: 09/14/2014 12:25 pm »
If we ever go for large scale colonization of anything, I believe aquiring nitrogen to fill living space with air is probably going to be one of the harder issues to solve. Once you make structures large enough, the mass of the air inside them tends to increase very rapidly. For O'Neill cylinders or martian air-filled domes, the air inside constitutes the majority of the total mass, and while finding the oxygen to fill them tends to be easy, making nitrogen in large enough quantities for use as a buffer gas tends to be a harder problem to solve. Even for small colonies it can be a bottleneck as it is needed to make fertilizer.

Perhaps the answer (for Earth's orbit) is PROFAC. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_fluid_accumulator

This was envisaged as a way to accumulate oxygen, discarding the collected nitrogen as reaction mass. But, perhaps it could retain the nitrogen and use the oxygen as reaction mass. (Not sure if the reactiveness of O2 would cause a problem with this?)

The presumed advantage here is that something like a high Isp SEP drive can perform the acceleration of the collected gasses to orbital velocity. Plenty of power will also be required to cool the gasses, for storage and separation.

Note that the GOCE mission demonstrated using ion thrusters to compensate for aero drag at very low LEO. Perhaps a very early precursor for the concept.

Collecting the power via solar panels has obvious issues once you get beyond the surface area comfortably provided by the square / cube rule. Perhaps it will be more practical once fusion power is available? (Though that won't be practical if the only option is a Tokamak. No one wants those chunks of metal falling put of the sky if the propulsion fails.)

Cheers, Martin

Offline momerathe

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #38 on: 09/15/2014 03:20 pm »
On the topic of spacesuits that don't require pre-breathe, what happened to the biosuit? is it still under development, or were there any show-stoppers?
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #39 on: 09/15/2014 08:37 pm »
On the topic of spacesuits that don't require pre-breathe, what happened to the biosuit? is it still under development, or were there any show-stoppers?

Biosuits don't provide higher pressure than spacesuits. At least according to the info I have seen. So they require similar pre-breathing.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #40 on: 09/15/2014 08:54 pm »
I have been thinking about emergencies with not enough time to don spacesuits.

A globe of maybe 80cm to 1m, maybe of Kevlar or some similar high stress material. Stored it would be quite small and no expensive tech so many of them could be available, like live vests on a ship. When pressure drops or it is activated it inflates. You can enter through an opening and zip it airtight from the inside. That should take much less than a minute. Inflate it to habitat pressure with pure oxygen. That would mitigate any depressurization effects. If the habitat does not deflate instantly there should be time enough to get into it.

You would be immobile, but with some water and maybe a simple manually driven CO2 scrubber you can wait many hours for rescue to arrive.



Offline RanulfC

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #41 on: 09/15/2014 09:08 pm »
On the topic of spacesuits that don't require pre-breathe, what happened to the biosuit? is it still under development, or were there any show-stoppers?

Biosuits don't provide higher pressure than spacesuits. At least according to the info I have seen. So they require similar pre-breathing.

A better general descriptor for the suit is the Mechanical Counter-Pressure Space Suit, (MCP) and they are generally assumed to have a lower pressure than Earths surface to keep the mechanical constraints down. There's still a lot of interest in the MCP but there's also a lot of institutional inertia to overcome in their use. As long as suits are few and far between there isn't much call for a major change which the MCP would be.

Randy
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #42 on: 09/16/2014 02:04 am »
I have been thinking about emergencies with not enough time to don spacesuits.

A globe of maybe 80cm to 1m, maybe of Kevlar or some similar high stress material. Stored it would be quite small and no expensive tech so many of them could be available, like live vests on a ship. When pressure drops or it is activated it inflates. You can enter through an opening and zip it airtight from the inside. That should take much less than a minute. Inflate it to habitat pressure with pure oxygen. That would mitigate any depressurization effects. If the habitat does not deflate instantly there should be time enough to get into it.

You would be immobile, but with some water and maybe a simple manually driven CO2 scrubber you can wait many hours for rescue to arrive.

they already had these on the shuttle.

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/reseball.htm

though the internal air supply would last only ten minutes they could be connected to an external air supply i think.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #43 on: 09/16/2014 02:08 am »
hatchback suits


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2179908/Nasa-designs-new-space-suit-20-years--hatchback-doesnt-hour-like-todays-models.html

Quote
The new suit will also effectively be its own airlock, doing away with the need to spend time getting the pressure right.


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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #44 on: 09/16/2014 03:34 am »
I have been thinking about emergencies with not enough time to don spacesuits.

A globe of maybe 80cm to 1m, maybe of Kevlar or some similar high stress material. ...........

they already had these on the shuttle.

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/reseball.htm

though the internal air supply would last only ten minutes they could be connected to an external air supply i think.

Thanks. I had never heard of it. It seems with 80cm my estimate was too low. It sounds like at least one meter would be necessary.


Offline hop

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #45 on: 09/16/2014 03:37 am »
hatchback suits

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2179908/Nasa-designs-new-space-suit-20-years--hatchback-doesnt-hour-like-todays-models.html
If you want to get factual information about NASAs advanced suit design projects just about anything, the daily mail is not a good place to start. Wikipedia will at least get you some links to original sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_series_%28space_suits%29

The "suitport" idea may reduce the time to get outside, but that doesn't mean you will just be able to jump in and go.

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #46 on: 09/16/2014 04:02 am »
that may be but I hve seen other articles; different media sources.

speaking of which; I have also seen articles about rovers with a couple of suits similar to this docked to a big rover. the idea being you drive somewhere in the rover and the crew jumps through the port into the exterior mounted suits, detach and go do some EVA tasks.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #47 on: 09/19/2014 07:13 pm »
Topical:  a new video article on the MIT Bio-suit.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/e950c41a1fc78ba24169dd9022c829b9.htm

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Offline RanulfC

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #48 on: 09/22/2014 01:34 pm »
Topical:  a new video article on the MIT Bio-suit.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/e950c41a1fc78ba24169dd9022c829b9.htm

The "print" article is here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140919094833.htm

I wonder why no one is revisting the "capstan" type MCP suit:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/s2pesuit.htm

The overall limitations were mostly design and could easily be "fixed" today, especially since the suit wouldn't be "non-breathing" as the original suit was. Information on the type here:
http://www.oiresource.com/capstan.htm

Randy
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Offline tlesinsk

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #49 on: 09/22/2014 04:49 pm »
and i also vaguely recall that pure o2 damages biological tissue in various ways. I don't recall from where i read that but that is the feeling i get from the vast swamp of my memory. :)

Oxygen partial pressures above 500 mbar are toxic to the central nervous system and to the lungs in a matter of a dozen hours. You can still use pure oxygen if you keep the pressure below that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
« Last Edit: 09/22/2014 04:50 pm by tlesinsk »

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #50 on: 10/06/2014 06:08 am »
hey, speaking of looking askance at media sources. mind the RT here; but:

http://rt.com/news/193280-crystal-breathe-underwater-oxygen/

if this is legit it means a lot for life support from space suits to space habitats to even medical therapies i think.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Offline cordwainer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #52 on: 11/13/2014 05:53 am »
I am skeptical about nitrogen being completely useless for life support. It is a necessary component in a number of biological processes, albeit one can get sufficient nitrogen from food sources as opposed to the air.
Still the long term breathing of a partial pressure oxygen environment has not been fully studied, there could be ramifications we have yet to fully understand. Also if you want to have generations of settlers then you have to study those ramifications on pregnancies and infirmity. Having lots of nitrogen in the air and soil is beneficial for plant life and bacteria if I am not mistaken. One also has to take into account the health effects that a nitrogen free atmosphere might have on symbiotic bacterial organisms in humans as well.

Offline cordwainer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #53 on: 11/13/2014 07:47 pm »
As to the water cycle issue, Doge. We don't actually have a perfect water cycle here on the Earth. We are running out of potable water and yet this planet supported us just fine until the industrial revolution and will go on supporting us for generations to come. Like most problems we have faced with taming our environment to meet our needs humans will no doubt find a technological fix like they have in the past. You don't have to have a 100% efficient solution to a problem just a sufficient amount of efficiency in relation to the size of the resource you are using that you can maintain a sustainable equilibrium for reasonable time. Reasonable time usually means the six generation rule, since typically a population improves their technology and increases their access to resources in that amount of time even if they are living in a subsistence existence(like the Native Americans from which the six generation rule originates).

Offline Vultur

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #54 on: 11/14/2014 04:58 am »
I am skeptical about nitrogen being completely useless for life support. It is a necessary component in a number of biological processes, albeit one can get sufficient nitrogen from food sources as opposed to the air.

Humans are unable to use gaseous nitrogen (N2), so yes it is useless (except as a buffer gas) to humans.

Quote
Still the long term breathing of a partial pressure oxygen environment has not been fully studied, there could be ramifications we have yet to fully understand.


Well, pure oxygen means more fire risk, and a 100% oxygen environment means a higher O2 partial pressure than sea level (to overcome the water vapor/CO2 partial pressure in the alveoli, if I understand correctly) which can have some effects.

It would probably be better to use a lower pressure non-pure-oxygen mix to make getting into spacesuits easier, something like 6-8psi with a high oxygen concentration but some nitrogen/argon/whatever, rather than pure oxygen.

You could even use, say, a Mexico City altitude air mix - that's significantly lower pressure (11.2 psi - about 76% of sea level pressure) just slightly enriched in oxygen (or not, most people are just fine at that altitude* and it ought to be possible to screen for those who are not).

*US airliner cabins are allowed to be depressurized to 8000 ft equivalent

Quote
Having lots of nitrogen in the air and soil is beneficial for plant life and bacteria if I am not mistaken. One also has to take into account the health effects that a nitrogen free atmosphere might have on symbiotic bacterial organisms in humans as well.

Yes, some bacteria can use ("fix") gaseous nitrogen. This is where nitrogen in the soil and biologically available nitrogen for plants and animals comes from. These bacteria are symbiotic with some plants (especially legumes - bean family). This symbiosis isn't a human thing though.

Offline cordwainer

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #55 on: 11/14/2014 10:07 pm »
What about the reactions in the human body and soil that require fixing nitrogen in the atmosphere into nitrogen oxides that are used in human and bacterial biological processes? Yes most of this fixing is done within plants or through combustion process and then absorbed into the human body but nonetheless if you need a buffer gas for changes between different pressure gradients and to lower combustibility in an oxygen rich environment then nitrogen seems the way to go. Especially if your going to grow your own food in space.

Offline Stormbringer

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Offline catdlr

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Re: Lifesupport System in Outer Space
« Reply #57 on: 05/05/2025 06:16 am »
Keeping Astronauts Alive - Everything You Need To Know About Life Support In Space



Quote
Apr 26, 2025
Keeping people alive in space has been a cornerstone of spaceflight technology since before humans even went to space. Systems need to provide for all the biological needs and remove all the byproducts from life processes.
Recycling is important to minimize the amount of consumables required on long duration flights. The international space station has moved away from filters, scrubbers and solid fuel oxygen generators to racks of equipment which keep the air fresh and breathable.
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

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