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International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Russian Launchers - Soyuz, Progress and Uncrewed => Topic started by: Stan Black on 09/01/2013 09:12 am

Title: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 09/01/2013 09:12 am
Payload: Meteor-M № 2-1
Secondary payloads: Ionosfera № 1, Ionosfera № 2, Baumanets-2, Flying Laptop, Flock-2, SCOUT, Perseus № 1, Perseus № 2, TECHNOSAT, Lemur-2, Lemur-3, NORSAT-1, SEAM, WNISAT-1R
Rocket: Soyuz-2-1B 14А14-1Б
Upper stage: Fregat 14С44
Fairing: 81КС
Launch site: Baikonur 17П32-6 (ПУ № 31/6)


State Rocket and Space Research and Production Centre «TsSKB-Progress»
Государственный научно-производственный ракетно-космический центр «ЦСКБ-Прогресс»

Soyuz-2-1B

979 940 500 Russian ruble
Contract date: 7th June 2010
Contract number: 353-1132/10
Contract period: up to December 2012
[source (http://fcs.vpk.ru/cgi-bin/uis/gk.cgi/ExtDataGk/View/6290850?class_suffix=Gk)]

 - this rocket was ordered for the launch of Meteor-M № 3

81КС

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Головной обтекатель (ГО) 81КС для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1 (353У.0001.002 ТУ)
80 984 000 Russian ruble
Contract date: 3rd May 2012
Contract number: 353-1198/12
Contract period: May 2012 to 25th November 2012
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007012000157)]

Yearly service of Soyuz-2-1B

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Проведение регламентных работ на ракете-носителе «Союз-2-1б» для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1
9 600 600 Russian ruble
Contract date: 11th November 2013
Contract number: 353-С224/13/350
Contract period: 2013
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007013000317)]

 - location of work TsSKB-Progress

Yearly service of Soyuz-2-1B

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Проведение регламентных работ на ракете-носителе «Союз-2-1б» для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
10 300 000 Russian ruble
Contract date: 25th October 2014
Contract number: 353-С224/14/343
Contract period: 2014
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007014000178)]

 - location of work TsSKB-Progress

Yearly service of Soyuz-2-1B

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Проведение регламентных работ на трёх РН «Союз-2-1б» для запусков КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1, «Луна-Глоб», УМ МКС и на  РН «Союз-2-1а для запуска КА «Резонанс» № 1, 2
10 650 600 Russian ruble
Contract date: 27th November 2015
Contract number: 353-С055/15/310
Contract period: 2015
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=1770236167415000151)]


Lavochkin Research and Production Association
Научно-производственное объединение имени С.А. Лавочкина

Fregat

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Разгонный блок «Фрегат» с ПхО (РБФ-0000-0ТУ)
376 835 600 Russian ruble
Contract date: 16th May 2012
Contract number: 361-1179/12
Contract period: April 2012 to 25th November 2013
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007012000150)] [source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=3074385)] [source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=2981537)]

Yearly service of Fregat

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Проведение регламентных работ на трех РБ «Фрегат» для запусков КА «Луна-Глоб», «Резонанс», «Метеор-М» № 2-1» и РБ «Фрегат-СБ» для запуска КА «Спектр-РГ»
6 425 000 Russian ruble
Contract date: 9th December 2015
Contract number: 361-С086/15/321
Contract period: 2015
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=1770236167415000159)]

 - location of work Lavochkin


Centre for Operation of Land-Based Space Infrastructure (TsENKI)
Центр эксплуатации объектов наземной космической инфраструктуры (ЦЭНКИ)

Launch campaign

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Подготовка и запуск РН«Союз-2-1б»и РБ «Фрегат» с КА «Метеор-М» No 2-1. Проведение послепусковых работ
521 894 000 Russian ruble
Contract date: 11th December 2015
Contract number: 924-8562/15/324
Contract period: up to 25th December 2016
[source (http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=1770236167415000161)]


Space Monitoring Systems, Information & Control and Electromechanical
Complexes named after A.G. Iosifian (VNIIEM)

Космические системы мониторинга, информационно-управляющие и электромеханические комплексы имени А.Г. Иосифьяна (ВНИИЭМ)

Meteor-M № 2-1

Platform: Ресурс-УКП (УКП-М)
Service life: 5 years
Orbit: 835 kilometres sun-synchronous 98,85°

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Создание космического комплекса гидрометеорологического и океанографического обеспечения и космической системы на его основе в части создания и запуска двух космических аппаратов гидрометеорологического обеспечения типа «Метеор-М» №2 и доработки НКУ и НКПОР-М
2 860 000 000 Russian ruble
 - for both Meteor-M № 2-1 and Meteor № 2-2
Contract date: 21st December 2011
Contract number: 016-8510/11
Contract period: December 2011 to December 2015
Delivery: December 2013, manufacturing to start January 2012
[source (http://zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007011000406)]

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Создание космического комплекса гидрометеорологического и океанографического обеспечения и космической системы на его основе
3 862 490 000 Russian ruble
 - for Meteor-M № 1, № 2, № 2-1, № 2-2 and № 3
Contract date: 19th September 2012
Contract number: 016-8537/12
Contract period: September 2012 to 25th November 2015
[source (http://zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007012000261)]

Quote
Создание космического комплекса гидрометеорологического и океанографического обеспечения с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1, № 2-2
3 316 184 500 Russian ruble
 - for both Meteor-M № 2-1 and Meteor № 2-2
Contract date: 6th February 2014
Contract number: 016-8510/14/90
Contract period: up to 25th November 2016
[source (http://zakupki.gov.ru/epz/contract/contractCard/common-info.html?reestrNumber=0173100007014000036)]


Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 09/27/2013 11:48 am
Routine maintenance on Soyuz-2-1B

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Проведение регламентных работ на ракете-носителе «Союз-2-1б» для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=7109592

1st post updated.

Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/15/2013 05:58 pm
Tender from the Centre for Operation of Land-Based Space Infrastructure (TsENKI) for insurance to cover various launches, including «Meteor-M», «Luch-5V», «Elektro-L», «Resurs-P», «MKA-FKI», «Gonets-M»:-
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=699599

Direct links to the documents, dated 28th November 2013:-
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/download/download.html?id=3582627
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/download/download.html?id=3580483

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Запуск космического аппарата: КА «Метеор-М»
Объект страхования: РН «Союз-2.1б»,  РБ «Фрегат», КА «Метеор-М» №2-1
Страховая сумма (лимит ответственности) млн.руб.: 2 589,500
Дата запуска: IV квартал 2014 г.

Quote
Launch of satellite: satellite Meteor-M
Insured items: rocket Soyuz-2-1B, upper stage Fregat, satellite Meteor-M №2-1
The sum insured (limit of liability), million ruble: 2 589,500
Launch date: 4th quarter of 2014
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/30/2013 03:41 pm
Quote
«Создание космического комплекса гидрометеорологического и океанографического обеспечения с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1, № 2-2» Шифр СЧ ОКР: «Метеор-3М» (Метеор-М 2-1, 2-2)
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/pgz/public/action/orders/info/common_info/show?notificationId=8280359

1st post updated.

Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 06/24/2014 10:54 pm
Flock-2, Flying Laptop and SCOUT to launch with Meteor-M № 2-1.

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выполнение работ по юридическому обеспечению доставки на низкую околоземную орбиту спутниковой системы Flock 2, принадлежащей Planet Labs Inc., в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки космического аппарата «Метеор М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=632385

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выполнение работ по юридическому обеспечению доставки на низкую околоземную орбиту спутниковой системы Flying Laptop, принадлежащей ECM Office, в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки космического аппарата «Метеор М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=673772

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выполнение работ по юридическому обеспечению доставки на низкую околоземную орбиту спутниковой системы SCOUT, принадлежащей SpaceFlight Services (США), в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки космического аппарата «Метеор М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=811603

 
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 06/26/2014 07:30 pm
AISSAT-3, Perseus-1 and Perseus-2 to launch with Meteor-M № 2-1.

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Выполнение работ по юридическому обеспечению доставки на низкую околоземную орбиту спутниковой системы AISSat-3, принадлежащей UTIAS SFL (Канада), в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки космического аппарата «Метеор М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=1090925

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выполнение работ по юридическому обеспечению доставки на низкую околоземную орбиту спутниковых систем Perseus 1 и Perseus 2, принадлежащих ОАО «Даурия Аэроспейс» (Россия), в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки космического аппарата «Метеор М» № 2-1
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=815336

 
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 09/06/2014 09:03 am
Routine maintenance on Soyuz-2-1B

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Проведение регламентных работ на ракете-носителе «Союз-2-1б» для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ok44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0173100007014000138

1st post updated.

Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 11/20/2014 06:25 pm
Two Ionosfera to launch with Meteor-M № 2-1.
Quote
Запуски КА «Ионосфера» должны осуществляться попарно попутно с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1 и КА «Метеор-М» № 2-2.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ok44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0173100007014000220
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 01/23/2015 12:22 pm
Tender from the Centre for Operation of Land-Based Space Infrastructure (TsENKI) for insurance to cover various launch sites; for preparation and launch of rockets «Proton», «Soyuz», «Zenit»:-
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=1922237

Direct link to document, dated 29th December 2014:-
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/download/download.html?id=10741151

Quote
РКН: КА «Метеор-М», РН «Союз-2-1б»
Дата запуска: 4 кв. 2015
Страховая сумма (лимит ответственности) млн.руб.: 1 594,00
Страховая премия (максимальный тариф) млн.руб.: 11,1

Quote
Launch: satellite Meteor-M, rocket Soyuz-2-1b
Launch date: 4th quarter of 2015
The sum insured (limit of liability), million ruble: 1 594,00
Insurance premium (maximum tariff), million ruble: 11,1
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 10/17/2015 08:05 am
If I understand this tender the rocket is being stored, awaiting launch and for the third year in a row the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roskosmos) has had to pay for this work.

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 Еженедельный внешний осмотр изделий без вскрытия люков обслуживания. Контроль внешнего состояния и наличия всех ящиков и другой упаковочной тары комплектующих элементов, приборов, агрегатов и ЗИПа.
 Ежемесячный контроль состояния силикагеля в «дыхательных» приспособлениях и осмотр патронов – индикаторов влажности в заглушках КС ДУ. Выборочный осмотр (не менее одного блока) приборов, агрегатов и БКС со снятием гермоукупорки и вскрытием люков.
 Ежеквартальный внешний осмотр приборов, агрегатов и БКС со снятием гермоукупорки и вскрытием люков. Замер остаточного давления в бортовых баллонах. Контроль состояния силикагеля в «дыхательных» приспособлениях и осмотр патронов – индикаторов влажности в заглушках КС ДУ. Выборочный (до 25%) внешний осмотр комплектующих элементов, приборов, агрегатов и ЗИПа - внешний осмотр состояния гермоукупорки, контроль индикаторов влажности, контроль состояния консервации.
 Годовые автономные испытания ДУ. Автономные испытания СИ и СВТИ. Совместные испытания СИ и СВТИ. Комплексные испытания БАСУ с записью на СИ. Автономные испытания СУ. Проведение ЗКИ с записью на СИ. Заключительные операции. Проверка комплектующих элементов, приборов, агрегатов, поставляемых отдельно и устанавливаемых в ЭО, а также ЗИПа в объеме действующей на них документации (паспортов, формуляров, ТУ).
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ok44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0173100007015000106

A similar tender has been issued for the Fregat upper stage; and includes the serial numbers.

Quote
Проведение регламентных работ в рамках годового технического обслуживания РБ «Фрегат» № 122-01 для запуска КА «Луна-Глоб», РБ «Фрегат» № 122-02 для запуска КА «Резонанс», РБ «Фрегат» № 122-04 для запуска КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1 и РБ «Фрегат-СБ» № 2006 для запуска КА «Спектр-РГ». Место проведения годового технического обслуживания: ФГУП «НПО им. С.А. Лавочкина» (г. Химки, ул. Ленинградская, д. 24). Годовое техническое обслуживание должно проводиться в соответствии с требованиями технических
условий на изделие по программе-методике РБФ-0000-0 ПМ-7.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ok44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0173100007015000109
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 10/22/2015 03:52 pm
Some additional passengers:-
Quote
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска ПН «Flock-2» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «TechnoSat» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «Lemur-2» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «Lemur-3» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «NorSat-1» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «SEAM» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «WNISat-1R» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru

AISSAT-3 now with Kanopus-V-IK:-
Quote
проведение работ в обеспечение запуска КА «AISSat-3» в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Канопус-В-ИК».
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/23/2015 05:08 am
Thanks Stan. Didn't Lemur-2 fly on PSLV on 28 September?
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Skyrocket on 10/23/2015 06:21 am
Thanks Stan. Didn't Lemur-2 fly on PSLV on 28 September?

Lemur-2 is not a single satellite, bur a series of Lemur satellites.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 11/10/2015 04:09 pm
Quote
оказание услуги по согласованию возможности присвоения радиочастот для космических аппаратов «TechnoSat», «WNISat-1R», «Lemur-2», «Lemur-3», «NORSAT», «Flock-2», «SEAM» запускаемых в качестве попутной полезной нагрузки с КА «Метеор–М» №2–1 с учетом состояния координации частотных присвоений спутниковых сетей с отечественными спутниковыми сетями
Quote
контракт № 8400214028 от 28.07.2014 между Planet Labs Inc.(США) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракт № 8400214028);
контракт № 2760214029 от 30.09.2014 между ECM GmbH. (Германия) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракт № 2760214029);
контракт № 8400214035 от 25.09.2014 между SpaceFlight Inc. (США) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракт № 8400214035);
контракт № 8400214042 от 05.08.2015 между SpaceFlight Inc. (США) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракт № 8400214042);
контракт № 8400214043 от 05.08.2015  между SpaceFlight Inc. (США) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракт № 8400214043);
контракт № 2760214044 от 24.07.2015 между ECM GmbH. (Германия) с одной стороны, и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракта № 2760214044);
контракт № 48 от 08.09.2015 между ECM GmbH. (Германия) с одной стороны и ОАО «Главкосмос» с другой стороны (далее по тексту контракта №48).
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=2998504
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Nicolas PILLET on 11/10/2015 04:19 pm
Glavkosmos is alive ????
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/10/2015 05:19 pm
Glavkosmos is alive ????
yes, well mostly. They went through some organizational restructuring over the last two years.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Danderman on 11/12/2015 07:46 pm
I found the Glavkosmos office in Moscow a few years ago, can't remember where it was now.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/04/2015 06:05 pm
The Federal Space Agency has issued a tender for the launch campaign, to the Centre for Operation of Land-Based Space Infrastructure (TsENKI).
Quote
Подготовка и запуск РН «Союз-2-1б» и РБ «Фрегат» с КА «Метеор-М» № 2-1. Проведение послепусковых работ.
521 894 000 Russian ruble
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ep44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0173100007015000139
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 07/01/2016 06:50 am
A tender for insurance from TsENKI shows two launches of Meteor-M in 2016; one in 3rd quarter and the other in the 4th.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/common-info.html?noticeId=3920012
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: tehwkd on 08/06/2016 05:01 pm
Q4 2016, has NorSat-1 as a launch buddy https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/n/norsat-1#launch
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 03/18/2017 07:07 pm
 ECM Upcoming missions  (http://www.ecm-space.de/index.php/launch-service/upcoming-missions) states that this launch is planned Q4 2017.
It shows a rendering of the payload stag.
ECM has a manifest of 10 cubsats and 15 micro satellites.  It looks like this l launch will h contain the first 16U Cubesat.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 06/13/2017 07:30 am
Looks like Fregat № 122-04 is now assigned to Meteor-M № 2-2
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/order/notice/ea44/view/common-info.html?regNumber=0995000000217000050
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 08/29/2017 03:13 pm
https://www.roscosmos.ru/23971/

Quote
ROSKOSMOS. SCHEDULE OF STARTING IN SEPTEMBER-NOVEMBER 2017
08/29/2017 1:45 PM
The ROSKOSMOSA Commission defined the launch plan for spacecraft (SC) within the framework of the Federal Space Program (FCP), Federal Target Programs (FTP), international cooperation programs and commercial projects in autumn 2017.
 
ROSCOSMOS plans to implement in September-November 2017:
under the ISS program - 2 launcher launch vehicles (LV) from the Baikonur cosmodrome:
September 13 - Soyuz-FG rocket with the transport manned spacecraft Soyuz MS-06;
October 12 - LV "Soyuz 2.1a" with cargo vehicle "Progress MS-07".
 
on a commercial program - 2 launches from the Baikonur cosmodrome:
September 11 - RP Proton-M with Amazonas-5 spacecraft (Amazonas 5);
September 28 - the Proton-M rocket with the Asia-9 satellite (AsiaSat 9).
 
for federal and commercial programs - 2 launches from the cosmodrome PLESETSK:
September 22 - LV "Soyuz-2.1b" with spacecraft "Glonass-M";
October 9-12 (date to be confirmed) - LV "Rokot" with SC "Sentinel-5P" (Sentinel-5 Precursor).
 
according to the federal program - 1 launch from the cosmodrome EASTERN:
November 28 - Soyuz-2.1b LV with Meteor-M spacecraft.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/04/2017 07:11 pm
Any news of launch hardware or the payloads arriving at Vostochniy?

There's news of the launch vehicle in the thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43776.0) for the following Soyuz launch from Vostochniy, for Kanopus-V #3 and #4.

EDIT: Answer, from above-referenced thread:

why is this 2.1A assembled and taken to the pad, isn't there supposed to be a 2.1B for Meteor or something launching in november?
the 2.1B is not yet delivered
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17286.msg1718700#msg1718700
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 10/11/2017 08:46 am
A new processing image of Meteor-M Nº2-1 in final preparations in Energia prior to heading to Vostochny. Apparently, leak checks have been completed and it has already been sent on its way.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 10/11/2017 09:09 am
the satellite
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 10/11/2017 09:33 am
the satellite

That's Meteor-M Nº2 (not Nº2-1) from 2014 http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32721.25
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 10/11/2017 10:00 am
the satellite

That's Meteor-M Nº2 (not Nº2-1) from 2014 http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32721.25
I found it here:
https://www.energia.ru/ru/news/news-2017/news_10-10.html
may be an older picture

https://twitter.com/roscosmos
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 10/11/2017 10:56 am
I know, I was about to post it myself. It can't be Nº2-1 because it has never been integrated with the Fregat-M/Blok-I, being still in transit to Vostochny. You can also see the secondary payloads installed under it. The picture can be found, for example, here: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor_m2.html
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 10/11/2017 11:21 am
I know, I was about to post it myself. It can't be Nº2-1 because it has never been integrated with the Fregat-M/Blok-I, being still in transit to Vostochny. You can also see the secondary payloads installed under it. The picture can be found, for example, here: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor_m2.html
I think you're right
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 10/11/2017 02:39 pm
https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2017/news_10-10.html

"Corporation Energia performed successful leak tests of hydrometeorological spacecraft (SC) No. 2-1 developed by JSC VNIIEM Corporation.

The tests were conducted in a thermal vacuum chamber using a helium procedure in a 24-hour mode for three days jointly with representatives of JSC VNIIEM Corporation under the supervision of SC Roscosmos.

The use of the helium procedure ensures the highest sensitivity and accuracy of the leak tests in vacuum.

After the leak tests, helium was removed from SC with dry compressed air."

...and the noted picture
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/11/2017 09:25 pm
https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2017/news_10-10.html

"Corporation Energia performed successful leak tests of hydrometeorological spacecraft (SC) No. 2-1 developed by JSC VNIIEM Corporation.

<snip>

Leak checks for what?

Is there still a pressurized vessel for the spacecraft electronics, etc.?

Or do some of the instruments contain liquids or gases?
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/12/2017 05:29 am
https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2017/news_10-10.html

"Corporation Energia performed successful leak tests of hydrometeorological spacecraft (SC) No. 2-1 developed by JSC VNIIEM Corporation.

<snip>

Leak checks for what?

Is there still a pressurized vessel for the spacecraft electronics, etc.?

Or do some of the instruments contain liquids or gases?
Meteor-MP will be first Meteor version to have a fully unpressurized bus minus propulsion system unless they scale back the project and stick with an existing bus design.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 10/28/2017 08:55 pm
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24277/
The parts of the carrier rocket for the Meteor satellite are in Vostochniy arrived.
The spacecraft Meteor-M No. 2-1 arrived at the spaceport on October 11.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Salo on 11/01/2017 01:46 pm
https://iz.ru/664893/dmitrii-strugovetc-anastasiia-sinitckaia/novaia-orbita-vostochnogo
Google translate:
Quote
In total, 17 sats are planned to be put into orbit from the Russian territory, among them LEO Vantage and AISSat-3 (both Canada), IDEA (Japan), SEAM (Sweden), two Landmapper-BC and 10 LEMUR (all USA), D- Star One (Germany).
As part of Roscosmos' commitments, the Russian student satellite Baumanets-2 will also be launched.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Skyrocket on 11/01/2017 01:54 pm
https://iz.ru/664893/dmitrii-strugovetc-anastasiia-sinitckaia/novaia-orbita-vostochnogo
Google translate:
Quote
In total, 17 sats are planned to be put into orbit from the Russian territory, among them LEO Vantage and AISSat-3 (both Canada), IDEA (Japan), SEAM (Sweden), two Landmapper-BC and 10 LEMUR (all USA), D- Star One (Germany).
As part of Roscosmos' commitments, the Russian student satellite Baumanets-2 will also be launched.

Has anyone an idea, what IDEA is? Sorry for the pun, but satellites having names corresponding to common words are difficult to find in internet recherches.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Olaf on 11/01/2017 02:08 pm
Has anyone an idea, what IDEA is? Sorry for the pun, but satellites having names corresponding to common words are difficult to find in internet recherches.
http://astroscale.com/services/osg-1
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/07/2017 08:57 pm
Quote
Sat builder @sslmda delivers #Telesat Phase 1 prototype LEO broadband sat to Russia's Vostochny Cosmodrome for late-Nov launch.

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/928010926850224128

Edit to add: here’s the SSL press release
https://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/2017-11-07-SSL-Small-Satellite-for-Telesat-Delivered-to-Launch-Base-in-Eastern-Russia.php (https://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/2017-11-07-SSL-Small-Satellite-for-Telesat-Delivered-to-Launch-Base-in-Eastern-Russia.php)
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Targeteer on 11/07/2017 09:29 pm
I think this is the correct launch based on timelines and launch site.  Please move if incorrect.

https://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/2017-11-07-SSL-Small-Satellite-for-Telesat-Delivered-to-Launch-Base-in-Eastern-Russia.php

SSL Small Satellite for Telesat Delivered to Launch Base in Eastern Russia
Will be one of Telesat’s two satellites launching into Low Earth Orbit this year as part of company’s planned global constellation

Palo Alto, CA – November 7, 2017 – SSL, a business unit of Maxar Technologies (formerly MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd.) (NYSE: MAXR; TSX: MAXR), announced today that the Low Earth Orbit (LEO) communications satellite it recently provided to Telesat has arrived at the Vostochny Cosmodrome in Eastern Russia where it will launch aboard a Soyuz-2 vehicle provided by Glavkosmos. This will be one of two Telesat Phase 1 satellites planned for launch this year that will allow Telesat to start testing key performance parameters of its next generation global LEO constellation.

“Developing this innovative LEO spacecraft for Telesat demonstrates our strength in collaborating with partners to meet new space goals,” said Dario Zamarian, group president of SSL. “With this satellite for Telesat, we have taken an entirely fresh approach to designing a high performing smallsat that will advance Telesat’s plans to launch an important next-generation business.”

The launch of this Phase 1 LEO will be a key step in Telesat’s goal to accelerate the world’s digital transformation by providing, through its LEO constellation, high performing, cost effective, fiber-like connectivity anywhere on the planet for business, government and individual users.

“Telesat’s LEO constellation will deliver fiber-like broadband on a global basis to commercial and government markets, and the launch of our Phase 1 LEO satellites is the starting point in making this next generation system a reality,” said Dave Wendling, Chief Technical Officer of Telesat. “Telesat is grateful to SSL for their many contributions during the design and construction of this innovative spacecraft. We look forward to a successful launch and beginning testing on our Phase 1 LEO satellites shortly after.” 

SSL has worked with Telesat for nearly 20 years to expand its satellite fleet and there are currently two Telesat geostationary satellites in production at SSL’s Palo Alto facility, where the company integrates space proven building blocks with technology advances that enable better performance and more power and capacity for broadcast and broadband applications. 

Telesat’s Phase 1 LEO smallsat is expected to launch in late November from Eastern Russia’s newest launch base, together with a Russian weather observation satellite and several other co-passengers. SSL partnered with the Space Flight Laboratory (SFL) of Toronto, Canada to build the spacecraft and SFL is managing launch base mission operations.

SSL’s growing LEO business includes satellites for Earth Observation, Communications and Satellite Servicing, and demonstrates the company’s agility in implementing new technologies and processes to drive innovation.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/09/2017 03:54 pm
The launcher for the Meteor satellite is mounted in Vostochniy.
http://www.russian.space/1233/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/10/2017 12:42 pm
launch mass 2750 kg
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24267/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Magic on 11/10/2017 01:25 pm
"A multichannel, low-resolution scanning device is designed for wide-area survey... "

but no 137MHz frequency given.
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/17/2017 04:54 pm
The satellite is integrated with the Fregat upper stage.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/24362/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/20/2017 12:25 pm
payload fairing is ready for final assembly
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24364/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/20/2017 01:20 pm
http://www.russian.space/1242/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/20/2017 04:57 pm
Is this the right picture ?
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/20/2017 06:53 pm
Is this the right picture ?
yes
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 – November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/21/2017 01:59 pm
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2017.html#meteor_m2_1

"The assembly of the payload section for the mission was completed on November 20 with the encapsulation of the Fregat stage and the satellites under their payload fairing. The transfer of the payload section to the vehicle assembly building for integration with the Soyuz-2-1b rocket was scheduled for November 21, allowing to complete the assembly of the launch vehicle on November 24, Roskosmos said."
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/23/2017 03:51 pm
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2017.html#meteor_m2_1

"The assembly of the payload section for the mission was completed on November 20 with the encapsulation of the Fregat stage and the satellites under their payload fairing. The transfer of the payload section to the vehicle assembly building for integration with the Soyuz-2-1b rocket was made on November 21, the assembly of the launch vehicle was completed on November 23, Roskosmos said. The rollout of the Soyuz-2-1b rocket to the launch pad is scheduled for November 25."
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/24/2017 06:59 am
NOTAM for 1st stage debris, fairing and second stage (ref 1st launch from Vostochny (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33750.msg1522802#msg1522802))

P5511/17 - ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW: A333 GIMOL - LALIR A718 IDMIR - LALIR B153 VEDAL - VILYUYSK NDB (CZ) B811 SREDNEBELOYE NDB (WZ) - NINON B830 TORSA - VILYUYSK NDB (CZ) B953 PITIL - ARDIB G229 UDRIL - NINON G231 BEGEL - OLEMU G494 SOVIK - BANIR R211 SOVIK - PARIS. SFC - UNL, DAILY 0530-0620, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 06:20 2017. CREATED: 24 NOV 07:41 2017

Launch planned at 05:41 UTC
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Artyom. on 11/24/2017 07:59 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5_GXnSXgQA
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Artyom. on 11/25/2017 06:32 am
Soyuz-2-1B rocket was transported to a launch pad - https://www.roscosmos.ru/24374/ (https://www.roscosmos.ru/24374/)
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Artyom. on 11/25/2017 06:33 am
Here are some photos taken by a friend:
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Artyom. on 11/25/2017 07:47 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx-n2eQ6i_0
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/25/2017 03:21 pm
https://www.wmo-sat.info/oscar/satellites/view/482

Satellite Payload

All known Instruments flying on Meteor-M N2-1
Acronym    Full name
IKFS-2      Infrared Fourier Spectrometer - 2
KMSS      High-resolution VIS/IR Radiometer
MSU-MR      VIS/IR Imaging Radiometer
MTVZA-GY      Imaging/Sounding Microwave Radiometer - improved
SSPD      Data Collection and Transmission System
S&RSAT      Search & Rescue Satellite-Aided Tracking System
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/25/2017 04:09 pm
Launch timeline (https://www.roscosmos.ru/24267/) from Roscosmos (all times in UTC):

05:41:46 - Liftoff
05:43:44 - 1st stage separation
05:45:33 - Fairing separation
05:46:33 - 2nd stage separation
05:51:09 - 3rd stage separation
05:52:09 - 05:53:26 - Fregat 1st burn
06:40:10 - 06:41:07 - Fregat 2nd burn for entering target orbit for Meteor-M2-1
06:42:08 - Meteor-M2-1 separation (planned orbit i = 98.57 °, H = 828.7 km, h = 788.9 km)
07:21:01 - 07:21:24 - Fregat 3rd burn
08:01:43 - 08:05:03 - IDEA OSG-1 separation (planned orbit i = 97.95 °, H = 814.2 km, h = 581.6 km)
08:13:21 - 08:13:37 - Fregat 4th burn
08:15:17 - Baumanets-2 separation (planned orbit i = 97.76 °, H = 600.1 km, h = 592.7 km)
08:20:00 - 08:35:00 - SEAM, AISSat-3, 2xCorvus-BC, D-Star One & 10x Lemur separation (planned orbit i = 97.76 °, H = 601.8 km, h = 583.9 km)
08:59:21 - 08:59:44 - Fregat 5th burn
09:50:01 - 09:50:46 - Fregat 6th burn for entering target orbit for Telesat LEO Vantage 2
09:54:06 - Telesat LEO Vantage 2 separation (planned orbit i = 99.46 °, H = 1002.2 km, h = 996.8 km)
10:42:41 - 10:43:19 - Fregat 7th burn for de-orbiting
~11:16:57 - Entry Interface of Fregat de-orbit over Pacific Ocean
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/25/2017 05:16 pm
and here are the NOTAMs for Fregat debris

A4947/17 -  THE RUSSIAN FEDERAL SPACE AGENCY HAS PLANNED A MISSILE LAUNCH. DEBRIS FM THIS LAUNCH WILL FALL WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 0330N12145W TO 0548N12109W TO 0539N12036W TO 0330N12109W TO POINT OF ORIGIN. IN THE INTEREST OF SAFETY ALL NON-PARTICIPATING AIR TRAFFIC ARE ADVISED TO AVOID THE NOTAMED AREA. IFR ACFT UNDER ATC JURISDICTION SHOULD ANTICIPATE CLEARANCE AROUND THE NOTAMED AREA. SFC - UNL, DLY 1100-1230, 28 NOV 11:00 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 12:30 2017. CREATED: 22 NOV 14:25 2017

A0690/17 -  -AIRSPACE MISSILE FRAGMENTS REENTRY WITHIN AN AREA BOUNDED BY : 053900S1241200W 033000N1214554W 033000N1210948W 055100S1233600W 053900S1241200W TO POINT OF ORIGINE. -THIS AREA IS PROHIBITED DURING ACTIVITY. MSL - UNL, NOV 28 29 30 1100-1230 DEC 01 1100-1230, 28 NOV 11:00 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 12:30 2017. CREATED: 15 NOV 21:22 2017
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/26/2017 08:54 pm
and NOTAMs for 3rd stage debris

A0558/17 -  DANGEROUS AREA ACTIVATED DUE TO MISSILE LAUNCH FROM RUSSIA.LATERAL LIMITS AS FOLLOWS QUADRILATERAL : 074940N0465706W 103400N0462318W 105518N0452154W 073834N0460310W. SFC - UNL, DAILY: 0530-0700, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 06:30 2017. CREATED: 14 NOV 12:46 2017

A1711/17 -  THE RUSSIAN FEDERAL SPACE AGENCY PLANS TO LAUNCH MISSILE ON 28 NOVEMBER 2017. ALTERNATE LAUNCH DATES ARE: 29, 30 NOVEMBER AND 01 DECEMBER 2017. MISSILE FRAGMENTS WILL HAVE AN IMPACT AREA BOUNDED BY THE FOLLOWING COORDINATES: 103400N 0462318W, 181324N 0444500W, 191830N 0433124W, 105518N 0452154W, 103400N 0462318W. IMPACT AREA WILL BE CLOSED DURING THIS PERIOD. CHANGES TO THE SCHEDULE WILL BE PROMULGATED. FOR FUTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: AFTN: UUUWYWYX FAX: 7 495 6010797 E-MAIL: SYNNIKOV AT MATFMC.RU ORLOV UNDERBAR OI AT MATFMC.RU. SFC - UNL, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 07:00 2017. CREATED: 20 NOV 17:33 2017

A0574/17 - (KZWY)  DUE TO A USSR SPACE CENTER LAUNCH, NEW YORK OCEANIC WILL NOT ACCEPT IFR FLIGHT WI THAT SPLASHDOWN AIRSPACE DEFINED AS 1813N04445W TO 2223N04348W TO 2212N04251W TO 1919N04311W TO POINT OF ORIGIN THE FOLLOWING INTERNATIONAL AIRWAY WILL BE AFFECTED: L435 ALL ACFT CERTIFIED FOR RNP4/10 SHALL FILE ROUTES THAT AVOID THE ABOVE HAZARD AREAS BY A MINIMUM OF 25NM. SFC - FL999, DLY 0530-0700, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 07:00 2017. CREATED: 22 NOV 20:24 2017
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/27/2017 05:26 am
Looks like we're getting a live launch!

http://www.tv-tsenki.com/live.php

"Declaration

Fsue "Tsenki" conducts live television launches in any region
Live launch of the Ilv Soyuz-2-1 B from the East Cosmodrome
Start of broadcast: 28 November 2017 06:40:00 (Moscow time)
Startup time: 28 November 2017 08:41:46 (Moscow time)
End of broadcast: 28 November 2017 09:40:00 (Moscow time)"
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/27/2017 12:44 pm
Salvage groups are waiting for the crash of the 1st and 2nd stage in the Amur region and Yakutia.

http://www.russian.space/1247/
Title: Re: Soyuz-2-1B/Fregat-M – Meteor-M № 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/27/2017 01:05 pm
Moved for live coverage.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/27/2017 01:24 pm
preparation and roll out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMn3urY4CK0
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/27/2017 01:37 pm
http://tass.com/science/977528

"High alert regime to be in place in Russia’s Far East ahead of space launch from Vostochny"

Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: jcm on 11/27/2017 06:28 pm
https://www.wmo-sat.info/oscar/satellites/view/482

Satellite Payload

All known Instruments flying on Meteor-M N2-1
Acronym    Full name
IKFS-2      Infrared Fourier Spectrometer - 2
KMSS      High-resolution VIS/IR Radiometer
MSU-MR      VIS/IR Imaging Radiometer
MTVZA-GY      Imaging/Sounding Microwave Radiometer - improved
SSPD      Data Collection and Transmission System
S&RSAT      Search & Rescue Satellite-Aided Tracking System

So compared to the previous flight, no radar or electron spectrometer or radiation dosimeter.
And the SARSAT is new.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/28/2017 12:24 am
William Graham's launch article:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/soyuz-2-1b-launch-meteor-m/
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Artyom. on 11/28/2017 02:43 am
Live broadcast from... the Vostochny  :)

http://online.roscosmos.ru/
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: DatUser14 on 11/28/2017 03:23 am
Service tower retraction
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: DatUser14 on 11/28/2017 03:34 am
video on payload
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:43 am
Back to the launch pad.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:46 am
Closeup of fairing.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:46 am
Far shot.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:49 am
Putting the fairing on.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:50 am
Two of the secondary payloads.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 03:52 am
T-50 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:02 am
T-40 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:12 am
Someone talking about the payloads.

T-30 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:16 am
Some excited engineers.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:17 am
T-25 minutes. Interview with one the small sat people.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:18 am
Engineer talking about his satellite.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:20 am
Another engineer, speaking in Russian I think.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:21 am
T-20 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:25 am
Here's a live feed on Youtube that's a lot more steady than the Tsenki feed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le0jrxW0-iw
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:27 am
T-15 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:29 am
T-12 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:32 am
T-10 minutes. Hearing some banging sounds.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:33 am
T-9 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:34 am
T-8 minutes. Hearing some Russian callouts.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:35 am
T-7 minutes. Looks a bit gloomy.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:36 am
T-6 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:37 am
T-5 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:38 am
T-4 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:39 am
T-3 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:40 am
T-2 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:41 am
T-1 minute.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:42 am
Liftoff!
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/28/2017 04:42 am
LAUNCH!!
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:43 am
T+1 minute.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:44 am
T+2 minutes. First stage separation.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:45 am
T+3 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:46 am
Fairing separation.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:47 am
Second stage separation.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:48 am
T+6 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:49 am
T+7 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:50 am
T+8 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:52 am
T+9 minutes

Third stage separation.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:52 am
Back to the launch pad. Upcoming events.

   T+             UTC
00:10:23 05:52:09 - Fregat 1st burn
00:11:40 05:53:26 - Fregat 1st burn cutoff (1:17)
00:58:24 06:40:10 - Fregat 2nd burn
00:59:21 06:41:07 - Fregat 2nd burn cutoff (0:57)
01:00:22 06:42:08 - Meteor-M2-1 separation
01:39:15 07:21:01 - Fregat 3rd burn
01:39:38 07:21:24 - Fregat 3rd burn cutoff (0:23)
02:19:57 08:01:43 - IDEA OSG-1 separation
02:23:17 08:05:03 - IDEA OSG-1 separation end
02:31:35 08:13:21 - Fregat 4th burn
02:31:51 08:13:37 - Fregat 4th burn cutoff (0:16)
02:33:31 08:15:17 - Baumanets-2 separation
02:38:14 08:20:00 - SEAM, AISSat-3, 2xCorvus-BC, D-Star One & 10x Lemur
02:53:14 08:35:00 - SEAM, AISSat-3, 2xCorvus-BC, D-Star One & 10x Lemur end
03:17:35 08:59:21 - Fregat 5th burn
03:17:58 08:59:44 - Fregat 5th burn cutoff (0:23)
04:08:15 09:50:01 - Fregat 6th burn
04:09:00 09:50:46 - Fregat 6th burn cutoff (0:45)
04:12:20 09:54:06 - Telesat LEO Vantage 2 separation
05:00:55 10:42:41 - Fregat 7th burn
05:01:33 10:43:19 - Fregat 7th burn cutoff (0:38)
05:35:11 11:16:57 - Entry Interface of Fregat de-orbit over Pacific Ocean
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 04:54 am
Youtube webcast has ended but Tsenki is still going. Looks like we're not going to see the Fregat burns.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/28/2017 05:00 am
Roscosmos Twitter

https://twitter.com/roscosmos/status/935385805501190144

#МетеорМ: 08:51:09 → "frigate" block with the Meteor-M spacecraft No. 2-1 and 18 small spacecraft are placed in an open Earth orbit. Meteor is scheduled for 09:42 WCS
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: SciNews on 11/28/2017 05:14 am
Soyuz-2.1b launches Meteor-M № 2-1 &18 nanosatellites
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG4X0qe39Vk
A Soyuz-2.1b launch vehicle, with a Fregat upper stage, launched the Meteor-M № 2-1 remote sensing satellite, Baumanets-2 microsatellite and 17 nanosatellites from the Vostochny Cosmodrome, on 28 November 2017, at 05:41:46 UTC (14:41:46 local time).
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 07:13 am
NK reports a problem with Fregat...
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 07:31 am
INTERFAX.RU reports no telemetry from Meteor-M:

http://www.interfax.ru/russia/589341
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 07:40 am
The article of Interfax was updated. In short, it says:

The satellite Meteor-M was scheduled to separate at 09:32 Moscow time and to start broadcasting telemetry information. Previously, it was confirmed that Fregat+Satellites deployed as planned from the third stage from the rocket. Russia media rely on sources from the space industry, and they say the following: since we have confirmation on Fregat separation from the rocket, but no telemetry, perhaps a Fregat anomaly is to blame.

Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 07:58 am
Another user of Novosti-Kosmonavtiki forum noted that the headline on Roscosmos website has been changed: "Rocket Soyuz-2.1b successfully launched from Vostochny cosmodrome" to "Rocket Soyuz-2.1b launched from Vostochny cosmodrome".

Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 08:10 am
ROSCOSMOS Confirms officially:

https://www.roscosmos.ru/24385/

quick Google translate:

As a result of the work of the Soyuz-2.1b LV, the head unit of the Fregat and the Meteor-M satellites was put into the assigned interim orbit. However, during the first planned communication session with the spacecraft, communication could not be established due to its absence in the target orbit. Currently, the information is being analyzed.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: owais.usmani on 11/28/2017 08:12 am
oh no!  :'(
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 08:17 am
TASS information:

Right now it's suspected that engines of Fregat didn't turn on properly. If this happened during the first burn, then Meteor-M will re-enter the Earth atmosphere. But if this happened during the second burn, then the satellite is in unplanned orbt.

http://tass.ru/kosmos/4764404
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/28/2017 08:18 am
 :( :(
exact launch time 05:41:45.965
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 08:25 am
"Fregat 2nd burn failed, the satellite is in an undefined orbit"
http://www.interfax.ru/world/589352
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 08:28 am
So the bottom line is that:
Soyuz-2.1B launch and insertion was OK;
Meteor-M №2-1 is not in the intended 820 km circular orbit;
it is not known if any of Fregat burns were successful.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/28/2017 09:07 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/28/2017 09:21 am
So the bottom line is that:
Soyuz-2.1B launch and insertion was OK;
Meteor-M №2-1 is not in the intended 820 km circular orbit;
it is not known if any of Fregat burns were successful.
This can mean that all satellites are lost ...
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 09:27 am
Ouch! That hurts. According to interfax (http://www.interfax.ru/russia/589367) due to a human error the Fregat stage could have fired in improper orientation so instead going into orbit, it has gone into the atmosphere .... This is what preliminary analysis shows.

The error occurred during the first burn of the engine.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 11/28/2017 09:36 am
Human error? Does it mean during the mission planning or introducing the data in the flight software?
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: SmallKing on 11/28/2017 09:42 am
Human error? Does it mean during the mission planning or introducing the data in the flying software?
It's very common to me. Chinese upper stage can also upload data during coasting
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 09:52 am
Ouch! That hurts. According to interfax (http://www.interfax.ru/russia/589367 (http://www.interfax.ru/russia/589367)) due to a human error the Fregat stage could have fired in improper orientation so instead going into orbit, it has gone into the atmosphere .... This is what preliminary analysis shows.

The error occurred during the first burn of the engine.
Quote from: same source
According to preliminary data, there was an error in the flight task of the carrier rocket and the Fregat booster block, as a result of which the first impulse was issued in the wrong orientation
This does not sound like a real time upload
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 09:55 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2017 09:59 am
This is not the only problem with Fregat this month. Let's remind that the Angosat launch was delayed due to problems with Fregat during preparations and now is scheduled for the end of December at the earliest.

Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: owais.usmani on 11/28/2017 10:04 am
And I thought this would finally be an year without a Russian launch failure.  :-X  :(
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/28/2017 10:10 am
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/28/2017 10:15 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
Thanks for the correction - I thought there was more than one.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/28/2017 10:18 am
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_stage/fregat.htm
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 11/28/2017 10:19 am
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648

This reminds me that upside-down sensor in the Proton.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Satori on 11/28/2017 10:19 am
Lets hope this will not futher delay Angosat's launch.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: gwiz on 11/28/2017 10:43 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
Thanks for the correction - I thought there was more than one.
There were a couple more that were not exactly successes - payload ending in wrong orbit.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: owais.usmani on 11/28/2017 10:46 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
Thanks for the correction - I thought there was more than one.

The Galileo launch failure was also a fregate failure so it should be two fregate failures now?
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: smoliarm on 11/28/2017 11:14 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.

In my log, there are 3 failure cases involving Fregats:
{Launch Date...Payload Name(s)...Launch Vehicle...Launch Site...Orbit: Planned[Achieved]...Launch Status}
May 21, 2009...Meridian No. 12L...Soyuz-2.1a/Fregat   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[HEO]...Wrong orbit
Dec 23, 2011...Meridian 5...Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[FTO]...Fail to orbit
Aug 22, 2014...Galileo 5 & 6 (Doresa & Milena)...Soyuz-STB/Fregat-MT...Ko ELS...MEO-Gal[HEO]...Wrong orbit

Although, only the last one can be attributed to Fregat without doubt.
In the first and second cases the failure cause may be in the third stage as well.
However, I would not say "Only one Fregat failed until now" since Fregat can not be excluded in two more cases.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 11/28/2017 11:19 am
Nooo, not again.
VS09 (http://www.arianespace.com/mission/soyuz-flight-vs09/) FOC M1 & M2
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 11:28 am
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
May 21, 2009...Meridian No. 12L...Soyuz-2.1a/Fregat   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[HEO]...Wrong orbit
Dec 23, 2011...Meridian 5...Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[FTO]...Fail to orbit
Aug 22, 2014...Galileo 5 & 6 (Doresa & Milena)...Soyuz-STB/Fregat-MT...Ko ELS...MEO-Gal[HEO]...Wrong orbit
May 21 2009 = human error, discrepancy in flight program data for Soyuz and Fregat
Dec 23 2011 = third stage aborted due to pressurization failure
Aug 22, 2014 = Fregat control system failure
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/28/2017 11:42 am
Wow. Was fully expecting to update this thread and see the burns went well. Crazy. Updated William's article to where we are:

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/soyuz-2-1b-launch-meteor-m/
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/28/2017 11:56 am
No new object has appeared on NORAD's list yet, although they can be up to days late so don't make conclusions from this.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 11:58 am
"Meteor-M satellite was insured for about 2.5 billion rubles" ($43M)
http://www.interfax.ru/russia/589366
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: ZachS09 on 11/28/2017 12:01 pm
Well, there's always next time to try again.

That's if Roskosmos is confident enough to use Fregat once the investigation is over.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: smoliarm on 11/28/2017 12:01 pm
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
May 21, 2009...Meridian No. 12L...Soyuz-2.1a/Fregat   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[HEO]...Wrong orbit
Dec 23, 2011...Meridian 5...Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M   PLE LC-43/4...Molniya[FTO]...Fail to orbit
Aug 22, 2014...Galileo 5 & 6 (Doresa & Milena)...Soyuz-STB/Fregat-MT...Ko ELS...MEO-Gal[HEO]...Wrong orbit
May 21 2009 = human error, discrepancy in flight program data for Soyuz and Fregat
Dec 23 2011 = third stage aborted due to pressurization failure
Aug 22, 2014 = Fregat control system failure

>>Aug 22, 2014 = Fregat control system failure
- no, I recall there was quite different official assessment.
Therefore I'm not sure your first two explanations are correct.

Anyway my point was - we do NOT know for sure the root causes for those two failures.
And as we don't know - we can't exclude Fregat from *the list*

Also - there was Fobos-Grunt stuck in LEO. And its escape stage was *modified* Fregat.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 12:16 pm
May 21 2009 = human error, discrepancy in flight program data for Soyuz and Fregat
Dec 23 2011 = third stage aborted due to pressurization failure
Aug 22, 2014 = Fregat control system failure

>>Aug 22, 2014 = Fregat control system failure
- no, I recall there was quite different official assessment.
Therefore I'm not sure your first two explanations are correct.

Anyway my point was - we do NOT know for sure the root causes for those two failures.
And as we don't know - we can't exclude Fregat from *the list*

Also - there was Fobos-Grunt stuck in LEO. And its escape stage was *modified* Fregat.
Well, you are correct in the case of 2014 (this was a failure not in control system but in fuel system for attitude control thrusters). And I stand with my statement on two other failures.
As of Fobos Grunt, it was first of all a project management failure leading to launch of a defective spacecraft.
Title: Re: LIVE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - November 28, 2017
Post by: Stevenzop on 11/28/2017 12:59 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 01:36 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 01:50 pm
Sven Grahn: Nothing has been found in orbit according to Space Command. Message with that content sent from JSpOC/SSA to the Cubesat owners waiting for TLEs.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/28/2017 01:54 pm
More fireballs:
https://twitter.com/destandaard/status/935431838604058625
https://twitter.com/VTMNIEUWS/status/935417305592467461

Thanks to J-C St-Pô‏ @jcstp
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: woods170 on 11/28/2017 02:04 pm
Too many problems with those Fregat and Briz upper stages in the past! :'(
Only one Fregat failed until now.
Thanks for the correction - I thought there was more than one.
Previously Fregat had experienced:
- Two (2) full failures (both in 2011) One of those was the one-off Fregat-SB propulsion module for Phobos-Grunt.
- Two (2) partial failures (2009 and 2014)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 02:09 pm
Previously Fregat had experienced:
- Two (2) full failures (both in 2011) One of those was the one-off Fregat-SB propulsion module for Phobos-Grunt.
- Two (2) partial failures (2009 and 2014)
You are wrong. Only the 22 Aug 2014 mission failure was attributed to Fregat failure.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Machdiamond on 11/28/2017 02:12 pm
More fireballs:
https://twitter.com/destandaard/status/935431838604058625
https://twitter.com/VTMNIEUWS/status/935417305592467461

Thanks to J-C St-Pô‏ @jcstp

Reading the newspaper article, they mention 1 to 2 seconds duration. That does not sound very much like a rocket stage re-entry, nor do the pictures look like one.

I suspect it was a meteorite over Belgium around 7:10 am, unrelated to this.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Jester on 11/28/2017 02:55 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???

Thanks, you have a source of the flight path/trajectory ?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/28/2017 03:03 pm
More fireballs:
https://twitter.com/destandaard/status/935431838604058625
https://twitter.com/VTMNIEUWS/status/935417305592467461

Thanks to J-C St-Pô‏ @jcstp

Reading the newspaper article, they mention 1 to 2 seconds duration. That does not sound very much like a rocket stage re-entry, nor do the pictures look like one.

I suspect it was a meteorite over Belgium around 7:10 am, unrelated to this.
Unless Fregat placed stack on a steep nadir trajectory or bounced off of the atmosphere to reenter later down the ground track.
Target orbit: 825.5 kilometers, 98.6 degrees toward the Equator
Nominal Ground tracks from the launch site.
http://russianspaceweb.com/vostochny-downrange.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Danderman on 11/28/2017 03:05 pm
My vague recollection is that Fregat does not have a uplink command link. And, I can’t think of a reason to provide new commands to an upper stage during nominal flight.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/28/2017 03:11 pm
My vague recollection is that Fregat does not have a uplink command link. And, I can’t think of a reason to provide new commands to an upper stage during nominal flight.
Fregat cannot talk to Luch in its current iteration and Russian based launches do not employ ESA/Arianespace ground stations for tracking
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: DatUser14 on 11/28/2017 03:18 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???

Thanks, you have a source of the flight path/trajectory ?
this, from this article: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Jester on 11/28/2017 03:24 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???

Thanks, you have a source of the flight path/trajectory ?
this, from this article: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html

No, its not, Input has a different source
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 03:25 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???

Thanks, you have a source of the flight path/trajectory ?

I put together the flight path of Soyuz-2-1-b from the NOTAMs I reproduced earlier in this thread (2nd stage (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1752737#msg1752737) and 3rd stage (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753282#msg1753282))
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Jester on 11/28/2017 03:36 pm
Quote
Interfax: A human error could have led to a wrong orientation of the Fregat upper stage during its 1st engine firing, sending the whole stack into the Atlantic:

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648 (https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/935465312178331648)

Is it possible to determine roughly where this could have re-entered? 

I only ask because I've been puzzling all morning over a bright flash I saw in the sky at about 07:30-8am ish here in the North East of Scotland.  I had assumed it was a meteor, but then I read  this.  Could the Fregat burn have been so far off as to cause a re-entry over the UK?    I'm guessing not, but the timings look eerily close!

Well, not impossible when looking at the flight path ???

Thanks, you have a source of the flight path/trajectory ?

I put together the flight path of Soyuz-2-1-b from the NOTAMs I reproduced earlier in this thread (2nd stage (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1752737#msg1752737) and 3rd stage (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753282#msg1753282))

Thanks
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: B777 pilot on 11/28/2017 04:24 pm
Amazing sighting this morning!! I'm an airline pilot, and was flying over the North Atlantic this morning at N50W035 when this bright fireball came out of the direction from Iceland. It passed right overhead us at around N50W035, around 06.00UTC. Unfortunately my iPad didn't take a proper picture, but see the attachments. There were many many pilots who saw it, as we all started talking about it on the air-to-air frequency. An amazing sight. It broke up into thousands of burning pieces.

There's one pilot who took a video, and said he will upload it to YouTube in the next hours. I'm searching...
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: DaveS on 11/28/2017 04:35 pm
Amazing sighting this morning!! I'm an airline pilot, and was flying over the North Atlantic this morning at N50W035 when this bright fireball came out of the direction from Iceland. It passed right overhead us at around N50W035, around 06.00UTC. Unfortunately my iPad didn't take a proper picture, but see the attachments. There were many many pilots who saw it, as we all started talking about it on the air-to-air frequency. An amazing sight. It broke up into thousands of burning pieces.

There's one pilot who took a video, and said he will upload it to YouTube in the next hours. I'm searching...
Did it look like it exploded (or rather increased suddenly in brightness) before it broke up? That would be consistent with the Fregat's propellant tanks being breached.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 04:37 pm
Amazing sighting this morning!! I'm an airline pilot, and was flying over the North Atlantic this morning at N50W035 when this bright fireball came out of the direction from Iceland. It passed right overhead us at around N50W035, around 06.00UTC. Unfortunately my iPad didn't take a proper picture, but see the attachments. There were many many pilots who saw it, as we all started talking about it on the air-to-air frequency. An amazing sight. It broke up into thousands of burning pieces.

There's one pilot who took a video, and said he will upload it to YouTube in the next hours. I'm searching...
Interesting indeed
 - Fregat 1st burn cutoff was supposed to take place at 05:53:26 UTC
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: B777 pilot on 11/28/2017 04:41 pm
Did it look like it exploded (or rather increased suddenly in brightness) before it broke up? That would be consistent with the Fregat's propellant tanks being breached.

I can't say. I noticed it first as if it was an aircraft coming at us with the landing lights on, but no traffic could be seen on our systems. It was still far away, but gradually increasing in brightness. It took about 2 minutes before it reached overhead us. It must have already disintegrated (or exploded, can't say, I didn't see a sudden bright flash) maybe around reaching Iceland in my best guess. We were at that time around 850nm south-west of Keflavik.
Title: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Star One on 11/28/2017 04:58 pm
This is probably the worst failure along with Phobos-Grunt as at least with the other two the payloads were able to get into some kind of orbit, even if in Galileo’s case this was suboptimal.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/28/2017 05:25 pm
The error on 21.05.2009 does not affect the Fregat stage. Block I = 3rd stage switched off 3 (other sources 5 seconds) too early.

russianspaceweb:
"A respectable source on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki forum reported that preliminary data had indicated the shutdown of the third stage of the launch vehicle three seconds earlier than planned. The Fregat upper stage apparently made an attempt to compensate the underperformance of the third stage with its own extended burn until it run out of propellant."

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: owais.usmani on 11/28/2017 06:20 pm
This is just so sad!  :'(

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baumanets.html (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baumanets.html)

Quote
On Nov. 28, 2017, students at the leading Russian college for rocket engineers launched their second micro-satellite more than a decade after losing the original spacecraft in a launch mishap. The Baumanets-2 satellite was intended for a series of remote-sensing and communications experiments, giving students at the Bauman Technical University in Moscow hands-on experience in building and controlling vehicles in space. Unfortunately, the second spacecraft repeated the fate of its predecessor.

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 11/28/2017 06:26 pm
Very unlucky.

Sorry, I was referring to this:

This is just so sad!  :'(

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baumanets.html (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baumanets.html)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: JimO on 11/28/2017 06:38 pm
Very unlucky? 'Luck' may have had less to do with it than then the cold, hard calculus of competence.

https://tinyurl.com/y9qgqudf
 
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: calapine on 11/28/2017 07:14 pm
This graphic by ParabolicArc is just depressing: Not a single year without launch failure since 2009.

Source: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2017/11/28/loss-weather-satellite-adds-russias-decade-launch-failures/
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: woods170 on 11/28/2017 07:28 pm
This graphic by ParabolicArc is just depressing: Not a single year without launch failure since 2009.

Source: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2017/11/28/loss-weather-satellite-adds-russias-decade-launch-failures/
Correct. It also reiterates what a Russian acquaintance of mine predicted, in late 2011, when Putin appointed Dmitry "trampoline" Rogozin to clean up the mess in the Russian space industry. Her prediction was that "he (Rogozin) will be just as incompetent as the people he is replacing".

Boy oh boy, she was right.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 11/28/2017 07:37 pm
Very unlucky? 'Luck' may have had less to do with it than then the cold, hard calculus of competence.

https://tinyurl.com/y9qgqudf
Or maintain the proficiency to keep the confidence.

While there are issues with how missions are being handled by this provider in the means that the "graying" of staff is dealt with (compelling younger, less trained/motivated "disposable") others ... this may show up elsewhere too when launch costs come down, but national launch needs dictate uneconomic LV/SC processing that compensates by burning though ever cheaper labor...

It's not just a Russian issue. Wider/longer than that. Not Samara's fault IMHO.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/28/2017 08:00 pm
"The US and Canada have no information about the "Meteor-M" satellite"
http://tass.ru/kosmos/4766259
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: mainmind on 11/28/2017 08:09 pm
The error on 21.05.2009 does not affect the Fregat stage. Block I = 3rd stage switched off 3 (other sources 5 seconds) too early.

russianspaceweb:
"A respectable source on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki forum reported that preliminary data had indicated the shutdown of the third stage of the launch vehicle three seconds earlier than planned. The Fregat upper stage apparently made an attempt to compensate the underperformance of the third stage with its own extended burn until it run out of propellant."



If the issue was with the Soyuz 2.1b third stage, could this impact the launch of a new ISS crew in December? That launch would have stages 1 through 3 in common with this failed launch, right?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: jcm on 11/28/2017 08:39 pm
Amazing sighting this morning!! I'm an airline pilot, and was flying over the North Atlantic this morning at N50W035 when this bright fireball came out of the direction from Iceland. It passed right overhead us at around N50W035, around 06.00UTC. Unfortunately my iPad didn't take a proper picture, but see the attachments. There were many many pilots who saw it, as we all started talking about it on the air-to-air frequency. An amazing sight. It broke up into thousands of burning pieces.

There's one pilot who took a video, and said he will upload it to YouTube in the next hours. I'm searching...
Interesting indeed
 - Fregat 1st burn cutoff was supposed to take place at 05:53:26 UTC

My calculations suggest vehicle would have reached N50W035 around 0606 UTC.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: jcm on 11/28/2017 08:50 pm
I estimate first orbit (pre Fregat burn) would have been about 35 x 200 km  to match Stage 3 reentry point.
MECO-1 target burn probably about 200 x 800 km, which would require  220 m/s or so.
If this went 180 deg in the wrong direction - retrograde instead of posigrade - would lead to a  -640 x 200 km orbit
reentering around 60N 34W.  This is a bit too far north to match the airplane observations. But if you point the vehicle
down by 20 deg and thrust the wrong way that would match nicely (so delta-v 208 m/s retrograde and 75 m/s zenith - of course
all these numbers plus or minus a lot, just proof of concept).  So a reentry at the observed point is certainly
not inconsistent with a stable full duration Fregat burn 1 at an incorrect orientation
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/28/2017 08:52 pm
Is the Fregat + payload sub-orbital when they separate from the 3rd stage/Blok I?

EDIT: Answered my own question--see 3rd stage NOTAMs earlier in the thread--yes, they are suborbital at 3rd stage/Fregat separation.

Is the outside-the-Russian launch campaign team consensus, at this juncture, that this appears to be a failure of the Fregat stage attitude during its first burn, after separation from the spent 3rd stage/Blok I?

The 3rd stage, and the Fregat after concluding the first burn, would have been at a not-quite-orbital velocity, and would have re-entered into the North Atlantic?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: jcm on 11/28/2017 09:02 pm
Is the outside-the-Russian launch campaign team consensus, at this juncture, that this appears to be a failure of the Fregat stage attitude during its first burn, after separation from the spent 3rd stage/Blok I?

The 3rd stage, and the Fregat after concluding the first burn, would have been at a not-quite-orbital velocity, and would have re-entered into the North Atlantic?

The 3rd stage would have gone further, to the central Atlantic around 14 deg N, while the Fregat seems to have gone down
around 50N based on B777 pilot's observations, which would only be possible with a burn in the wrong direction - in my model,
orbit changes from 36 x 200 km to -581 x 202 km. 

By the way, I tried adding out of plane delta-v, even 400m/s changes the path by only 1 degree so am pretty sure the UK/Belgium stuff is unrelated.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: William Graham on 11/28/2017 09:11 pm
This graphic by ParabolicArc is just depressing: Not a single year without launch failure since 2009.

Source: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2017/11/28/loss-weather-satellite-adds-russias-decade-launch-failures/

It's longer than that. I think the last year without a Russian launch failure, or at least a partial failure, was 2003. That said, Russia has had a higher launch rate than any other country for most of that time, so statistically it is expected to have a higher number of failures than other countries.

June 2004 - Zenit-3SL with Telstar 18 - Upper stage, incorrect orbit (partial failure)
December 2004 - Tsyklon-3 with Sich-1M - Third stage, incorrect orbit (partial failure)
June 2005 - Molniya-M/ML with Molniya-3K - Third stage, failed to orbit
June 2005 (on the same day) - Volna with Cosmos 1 - First stage, failed to orbit
October 2005 - Rokot/Briz-KM with CryoSat - Second stage, failed to orbit
October 2005 - Kosmos-3M with various - One payload failed to separate (marginal partial failure)
February 2006 - Proton-M/Briz-M with Arabsat-4A - Upper stage, incorrect orbit
July 2006 - Dnepr with various - First stage, failed to orbit
January 2007 - Zenit-3SL with NSS-8 - First stage, failed to orbit
September 2007 - Proton-M/Briz-M with JCSAT-11 - Second stage, failed to orbit
March 2008 - Proton-M/Briz-M with AMC-14 - Upper stage, incorrect orbit (partial failure)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Jester on 11/28/2017 09:13 pm
video

https://twitter.com/ThatJetsetGirl/status/935569848507170817 (https://twitter.com/ThatJetsetGirl/status/935569848507170817)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Sam Ho on 11/28/2017 09:19 pm
The error on 21.05.2009 does not affect the Fregat stage. Block I = 3rd stage switched off 3 (other sources 5 seconds) too early.

russianspaceweb:
"A respectable source on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki forum reported that preliminary data had indicated the shutdown of the third stage of the launch vehicle three seconds earlier than planned. The Fregat upper stage apparently made an attempt to compensate the underperformance of the third stage with its own extended burn until it run out of propellant."

If the issue was with the Soyuz 2.1b third stage, could this impact the launch of a new ISS crew in December? That launch would have stages 1 through 3 in common with this failed launch, right?
To avoid confusion, that comment above about the third stage refers to the 2009 launch failure of Meridian 2, not the present one.  And no, that failure did not affect ISS crew.  Soyuz TMA-15 launched less than a week later.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/28/2017 09:23 pm
Is the outside-the-Russian launch campaign team consensus, at this juncture, that this appears to be a failure of the Fregat stage attitude during its first burn, after separation from the spent 3rd stage/Blok I?

The 3rd stage, and the Fregat after concluding the first burn, would have been at a not-quite-orbital velocity, and would have re-entered into the North Atlantic?

The 3rd stage would have gone further, to the central Atlantic around 14 deg N, while the Fregat seems to have gone down
around 50N based on B777 pilot's observations, which would only be possible with a burn in the wrong direction - in my model,
orbit changes from 36 x 200 km to -581 x 202 km. 

<snip>

My bad, I forgot about the 3rd stage NOTAMs noted earlier in this thread:
and NOTAMs for 3rd stage debris

A0558/17 -  DANGEROUS AREA ACTIVATED DUE TO MISSILE LAUNCH FROM RUSSIA.LATERAL LIMITS AS FOLLOWS QUADRILATERAL : 074940N0465706W 103400N0462318W 105518N0452154W 073834N0460310W. SFC - UNL, DAILY: 0530-0700, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 06:30 2017. CREATED: 14 NOV 12:46 2017

A1711/17 -  THE RUSSIAN FEDERAL SPACE AGENCY PLANS TO LAUNCH MISSILE ON 28 NOVEMBER 2017. ALTERNATE LAUNCH DATES ARE: 29, 30 NOVEMBER AND 01 DECEMBER 2017. MISSILE FRAGMENTS WILL HAVE AN IMPACT AREA BOUNDED BY THE FOLLOWING COORDINATES: 103400N 0462318W, 181324N 0444500W, 191830N 0433124W, 105518N 0452154W, 103400N 0462318W. IMPACT AREA WILL BE CLOSED DURING THIS PERIOD. CHANGES TO THE SCHEDULE WILL BE PROMULGATED. FOR FUTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: AFTN: UUUWYWYX FAX: 7 495 6010797 E-MAIL: SYNNIKOV AT MATFMC.RU ORLOV UNDERBAR OI AT MATFMC.RU. SFC - UNL, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 07:00 2017. CREATED: 20 NOV 17:33 2017

A0574/17 - (KZWY)  DUE TO A USSR SPACE CENTER LAUNCH, NEW YORK OCEANIC WILL NOT ACCEPT IFR FLIGHT WI THAT SPLASHDOWN AIRSPACE DEFINED AS 1813N04445W TO 2223N04348W TO 2212N04251W TO 1919N04311W TO POINT OF ORIGIN THE FOLLOWING INTERNATIONAL AIRWAY WILL BE AFFECTED: L435 ALL ACFT CERTIFIED FOR RNP4/10 SHALL FILE ROUTES THAT AVOID THE ABOVE HAZARD AREAS BY A MINIMUM OF 25NM. SFC - FL999, DLY 0530-0700, 28 NOV 05:30 2017 UNTIL 01 DEC 07:00 2017. CREATED: 22 NOV 20:24 2017

Thank you!
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/28/2017 09:29 pm
A Facebook entry in Russian https://www.facebook.com/obernikhin.dmt.igr/posts/2007168046235965 stated that Fregat began to fall down within the first tracking zone while its computer worked perfectly.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 11/28/2017 10:39 pm
A Facebook entry in Russian https://www.facebook.com/obernikhin.dmt.igr/posts/2007168046235965 stated that Fregat began to fall down within the first tracking zone while its computer worked perfectly.

It also suggests a "kick" to the KDU (prop) or to the attitude control system. Does this imply a recontact with the Block I? With something else? There appear to have been bolids in the "general area" (UK/Belgium sightings)... I know the chances are infinitesimal, but could an MMOD strike have caused this?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: smoliarm on 11/28/2017 11:59 pm
A Facebook entry in Russian https://www.facebook.com/obernikhin.dmt.igr/posts/2007168046235965 stated that Fregat began to fall down within the first tracking zone while its computer worked perfectly.

It also suggests a "kick" to the KDU (prop) or to the attitude control system. Does this imply a recontact with the Block I? With something else? There appear to have been bolids in the "general area" (UK/Belgium sightings)... I know the chances are infinitesimal, but could an MMOD strike have caused this?

No, it does not suggest a kick, it's just a slang :)
The original text:
1  >В конце 1й зоны видимости начал падать.
2  >БЦВМ работала штатно.
3  >Пинают на КДУ или систему ориентации.

Line 1 meaning: "It started to fell [down] in the end of the 1-st visibility zone"
Line 2: "On-board computer appears to work nominally"
Line 3: "They suspect [fault in] Main Propulsion (not sure if its a correct translation for "КДУ") or Orientation System (literal translation for "система ориентации")


Actually, FB says I have some friends in common with the guys in this post. I'll try to contact :)

Edit: corrected typo
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: JimO on 11/29/2017 12:41 am
CORRECTED ==
I'm scanning video sites, no new videos yet from any more  observers.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: jcm on 11/29/2017 12:57 am
A Facebook entry in Russian https://www.facebook.com/obernikhin.dmt.igr/posts/2007168046235965 stated that Fregat began to fall down within the first tracking zone while its computer worked perfectly.

It also suggests a "kick" to the KDU (prop) or to the attitude control system. Does this imply a recontact with the Block I? With something else? There appear to have been bolids in the "general area" (UK/Belgium sightings)... I know the chances are infinitesimal, but could an MMOD strike have caused this?

No, it does not suggest a kick, it's just a slang :)
The original text:
1  >В конце 1й зоны видимости начал падать.
2  >БЦВМ работала штатно.
3  >Пинают на КДУ или систему ориентации.

Line 1 meaning: "It started to fell [down] in the end of the 1-st visibility zone"
Line 2: "On-board computer appears to work nominally"
Line 3: "They suspect [fault in] Main Propulsion (not sure if its a correct translation for "КДУ") or Orientation System (literal translation for "система ориентации")


Actually, FB says I have some friends in common with the guys in this post. I'll try to contact :)

Edit: corrected typo
In particular, do we know the boundaries of the first visibility zone?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Lars-J on 11/29/2017 01:14 am
I'm scanning video sites, no videos yet from any observers.

Did you miss the video on the last page? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753964#msg1753964
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: kevin-rf on 11/29/2017 01:41 am

Did you miss the video on the last page? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753964#msg1753964

I know I did, I was just about to repost the same link. Thanks for saving me.

Kinda wanted to ask about the launch track, heading north over the pole instead of south over the Pacific, then over the pole. Just a little scary in the age of ICBM's. Guess I'm just use to Vandenberg launch tracks.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: robbak on 11/29/2017 02:00 am

Kinda wanted to ask about the launch track, heading north over the pole instead of south over the Pacific, then over the pole. Just a little scary in the age of ICBM's. Guess I'm just use to Vandenberg launch tracks.
Launching south from this site would launch over China, which is not on. Far east Russia, which is the place with clear access to the Pacific, is a bit too remote for launch sites.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Targeteer on 11/29/2017 02:01 am

Did you miss the video on the last page? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753964#msg1753964

I know I did, I was just about to repost the same link. Thanks for saving me.

Kinda wanted to ask about the launch track, heading north over the pole instead of south over the Pacific, then over the pole. Just a little scary in the age of ICBM's. Guess I'm just use to Vandenberg launch tracks.

There have been two launches from there and both have overflown the USSR.  Why not just conduct the launches from Plesetsk?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: JimO on 11/29/2017 02:13 am

Did you miss the video on the last page? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753964#msg1753964

I know I did, I was just about to repost the same link. Thanks for saving me.

Kinda wanted to ask about the launch track, heading north over the pole instead of south over the Pacific, then over the pole. Just a little scary in the age of ICBM's. Guess I'm just use to Vandenberg launch tracks.

The sun-sync north launches from Plesetsk are the scary ones, right over Iowa.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Lars-J on 11/29/2017 02:25 am

Did you miss the video on the last page? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32723.msg1753964#msg1753964

I know I did, I was just about to repost the same link. Thanks for saving me.

Kinda wanted to ask about the launch track, heading north over the pole instead of south over the Pacific, then over the pole. Just a little scary in the age of ICBM's. Guess I'm just use to Vandenberg launch tracks.

There have been two launches from there and both have overflown the USSR.  Why not just conduct the launches from Plesetsk?

What's wrong with the launch track? Nothing... This is a better one than out of Plesetsk (for the same orbit - SSO?), which would overfly Alaska and North America during the ascent/first orbit. And they do want to start using Vostochny more anyway.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: AStick on 11/29/2017 02:33 am
Maybe I’m still tired, but if this had launched from Plestsk, and failed, where would she had fallen?  And how would the US/Canada responded?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Arch Admiral on 11/29/2017 04:04 am
Of course, NORAD is well aware of all Russian space launches and monitors them closely during the boost phase by means of IR tracking satellites. There is no danger of them being mistaken for ICBM attacks (although this did happen once in Russia in the Yetsin era). NSA collects all the telemetry signals with its own satellites. Unlike the depleted Russian ground station net, NSA has complete coverage without blind spots, so probably Washington has a better idea than Moscow as to what really happened.

As for radar tracking, this launch passed through the gap between the BMEWS radars at RAF Fylingdales in Yorkshire and Thule AFB in Greenland. At its low altitude it was probably below the horizon for both stations. IR satellites probably tracked the reentry. The Pletetsk launches to SSO might be tracked for short periods from Thule or Cavalier AFS in North Dakota.

There used to be special intelligence units in the USAF (and RCAF??) to collect Soviet space debris that fell in North America. The earliest example was "Sputnik 4" (Korabyl-Sputnik 1), the prototype of Vostok/Zenit. I'm not aware if anyone bothers anymore.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/29/2017 06:27 am
Claimed video of re-entry:

Quote
A friend of mine sent me this video coming back from Montreal. A Russian satellite was lost after failing to enter orbit, and they believe this is it burning up entering the Earth's atmosphere. It's absolutely STUNNING to watch. #AviationLovers #Space

https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935569848507170817

Edit to add:
 
Quote
It was taken over the North Atlantic on a @British_Airways flight to London from Montreal

https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935645667485241346
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: ugordan on 11/29/2017 07:37 am
Claimed video of re-entry:

Definitely has all the hallmarks of a LEO reentry and not a bolide.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: B777 pilot on 11/29/2017 08:16 am
Awesome, that's the video I was looking for. It's exactly what we saw, except we saw it coming from the left instead of going to the right, and that matches the flight radar. BAW94 is the flight from Montreal to London. I was flying QTR756.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 08:34 am
Claimed video of re-entry:

Quote
A friend of mine sent me this video coming back from Montreal. A Russian satellite was lost after failing to enter orbit, and they believe this is it burning up entering the Earth's atmosphere. It's absolutely STUNNING to watch. #AviationLovers #Space

https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935569848507170817 (https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935569848507170817)

Edit to add:
 
Quote
It was taken over the North Atlantic on a @British_Airways flight to London from Montreal

https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935645667485241346 (https://twitter.com/thatjetsetgirl/status/935645667485241346)

from Flightradar24 for BA94 on Nov 28:

Quote
28 Nov   Montreal (YUL)    London (LHR)    B788 (G-ZBJB)    6:02   8:55 PM    9:21 PM    8:30 AM   
   Landed 8:22 AM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba94#facd046 (https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba94#facd046)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: robbak on 11/29/2017 08:39 am
Awesome, that's the video I was looking for. It's exactly what we saw, except we saw it coming from the left instead of going to the right, and that matches the flight radar. BAW94 is the flight from Montreal to London. I was flying QTR756.

So you saw it to your left, and they saw it to their right? If, so, that means we have a pretty accurate re-entry location.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: B777 pilot on 11/29/2017 08:46 am
So you saw it to your left, and they saw it to their right? If, so, that means we have a pretty accurate re-entry location.

Based on the video you can see that it's moving to the right. We saw it coming from the left and it passed overhead us, maybe a few miles behind us (difficult to estimate the altitude and distance at night). That matches the track posted a few pages earlier.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: B777 pilot on 11/29/2017 08:53 am
https://twitter.com/ThatJetsetGirl/status/935630522734272512
Approximate location and time.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 09:12 am
https://twitter.com/ThatJetsetGirl/status/935630522734272512
Approximate location and time.
"that was seen between N54W35 and N55W30 at 0608Z"
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 12:46 pm
Quote
Fregat could have fallen due to malfunction of navigation equipment
The "Fregat" upper stage in conjunction with 19 satellites could have fallen to Earth due to GLONASS equipment malfunction, which should increase the accuracy of the launching by the satellite's upper stage.
This was reported by a TASS source in the rocket and space industry.
"According to preliminary data, a technical malfunction has occurred in the satellite navigation equipment, which is installed on [Fregat], operates at the signal of GLONASS and GPS, and improves the accuracy of the Fregat  launch of spacecraft into target orbits," the source said.
He clarified that as a result of this, after the separation from the third stage of the Soyuz-2.1b booster rocket, the upper stage was misoriented, entered the dense layers of the atmosphere and fell into the Atlantic Ocean.



http://tass.ru/kosmos/4768260 (http://tass.ru/kosmos/4768260)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/29/2017 01:54 pm
If so, that may help clear the vehicle for upcoming missions at least.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 11/29/2017 01:57 pm
@ Chris,

That depends on the nature of the malfunction. Will they need to recode how the Fregat IU interprets GLONASS transmissions? Will they need to inspect and/or replace all the GLONASS transceivers on all the current Fregat stockpile? Or is there something wrong with the signals coming from a specific GLONASS spacecraft?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 11/29/2017 02:17 pm
Quote
Fregat could have fallen due to malfunction of navigation equipment
The "Fregat" upper stage in conjunction with 19 satellites could have fallen to Earth due to GLONASS equipment malfunction, which should increase the accuracy of the launching by the satellite's upper stage.
This was reported by a TASS source in the rocket and space industry.
"According to preliminary data, a technical malfunction has occurred in the satellite navigation equipment, which is installed on [Fregat], operates at the signal of GLONASS and GPS, and improves the accuracy of the Fregat  launch of spacecraft into target orbits," the source said.
He clarified that as a result of this, after the separation from the third stage of the Soyuz-2.1b booster rocket, the upper stage was misoriented, entered the dense layers of the atmosphere and fell into the Atlantic Ocean.



http://tass.ru/kosmos/4768260 (http://tass.ru/kosmos/4768260)
"...improves the accuracy of the Fregat  launch..."
That's really an improvement (if it works)  :(
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Danderman on 11/29/2017 02:27 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/29/2017 05:30 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
I suspect this TASS report is flatly wrong. Fregat does have a GPS/GLONASS receiver unit but, accordingly to published descriptions, the control system relies primarily on old good IMUs/RGUs and rejects input from the reciever if it largely differs from the inertial sensors.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: woods170 on 11/29/2017 05:48 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
I suspect this TASS report is flatly wrong. Fregat does have a GPS/GLONASS receiver unit but, accordingly to published descriptions, the control system relies primarily on old good IMUs/RGUs and rejects input from the reciever if it largely differs from the inertial sensors.

Just saying that "good old" IMUs/RGUs didn't prevent Fregat from reentering the atmosphere.
Clearly, something malfunctioned. Time will tell what it was.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: envy887 on 11/29/2017 05:55 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
I suspect this TASS report is flatly wrong. Fregat does have a GPS/GLONASS receiver unit but, accordingly to published descriptions, the control system relies primarily on old good IMUs/RGUs and rejects input from the reciever if it largely differs from the inertial sensors.

How would a GPS/GLONASS receiver help with pointing/orientation, anyway? It can give a velocity vector, but cannot tell where the vehicle is aligned relative to the velocity vector. Need star trackers or IMUs for that.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: lrk on 11/29/2017 06:00 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
I suspect this TASS report is flatly wrong. Fregat does have a GPS/GLONASS receiver unit but, accordingly to published descriptions, the control system relies primarily on old good IMUs/RGUs and rejects input from the reciever if it largely differs from the inertial sensors.

How would a GPS/GLONASS receiver help with pointing/orientation, anyway? It can give a velocity vector, but cannot tell where the vehicle is aligned relative to the velocity vector. Need star trackers or IMUs for that.

If it was confused about the velocity vector, then it would try to compensate and end up pointing in the wrong direction. 
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 07:01 pm
For the record, this was the navigational warning for 3rd stage debris:

NORTH ATLANTIC.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS SPACE DEBRIS 0530Z TO 0700Z
DAILY 28 NOV THRU 01 DEC IN AREA BOUND BY
22-23N 045-54W, 22-17N 042-52W,
07-37N 045-55W, 07-48N 046-47W.
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 010800Z DEC 17.//

Authority: NAVAREA XIII 241807Z NOV 17.

Date: 241809Z NOV 17
Cancel: 01080000 Dec 17
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Remes on 11/29/2017 07:30 pm
How would a GPS/GLONASS receiver help with pointing/orientation, anyway? It can give a velocity vector, but cannot tell where the vehicle is aligned relative to the velocity vector. Need star trackers or IMUs for that.
It's giving absolute positions and allows for comparison of set/actual trajectory/orbit. An IMU drifts in all 6 axis (including 3 acceleration axis, which are integrated to the velocities), GPS/GLONASS allows for compensation of this drift. The article doesn't say it relies solely on GLONASS. There will be a sensor fusion, taking the best of all worlds (i.e. taking the GPS/GLONASS to compensate for drift and correcting the values from the IMU over time, but using the IMU for dynamic things like orientation determination and control).

Sounds like a software issue to me.

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Nomadd on 11/29/2017 07:43 pm
If there is no redundancy for a failed GLONASS receiver, that would be a very bad design, indeed. I suspect there is more to the story.
I suspect this TASS report is flatly wrong. Fregat does have a GPS/GLONASS receiver unit but, accordingly to published descriptions, the control system relies primarily on old good IMUs/RGUs and rejects input from the reciever if it largely differs from the inertial sensors.

How would a GPS/GLONASS receiver help with pointing/orientation, anyway? It can give a velocity vector, but cannot tell where the vehicle is aligned relative to the velocity vector. Need star trackers or IMUs for that.
Multi antenna GPS units can give you sub degree point. Three antenna units are replacing ship's gyros and also give you accurate pitch, yaw and roll information. Tiny inertial sensors keep the data coming in for a few minutes if you lose the sat signals.
 The antennas don't need perfectly accurate data. They only need the same data from the same sats to know where they are relative to each other. The three antennas only need a meter of separation for good performance.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 07:44 pm
Navigational error detailed by Anatoly Zack:

Quote
almost unbelievably, the flight control system on the Fregat did not have the correct settings for the mission originating from the new launch site in Vostochny, as apposed to routine launches from Baikonur and Plesetsk. As a result, as soon as Fregat and its cargo separated from the third stage of the launch vehicle, its flight control system began commanding a change of orientation of the stack to compensate for what the computer had perceived as a deviation from the correct attitude, which was considerable. As a result, when the Fregat began its first preprogrammed main engine firing, the vehicle was apparently still changing its attitude, which led to a maneuvering in a wrong direction.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#culprit
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/29/2017 08:26 pm
Quote
ROSKOSMOS. ANALYSIS OF THE CAUSES OF FAILED LAUNCH
11/29/2012 9:26 PM
On November 29, 2017, the State Commission approved the composition of the emergency commission to determine the reasons for the non-standard launch of the Soyuz-2.1b booster rocket with the Fregat booster block, the Meteor-M No. 2.1 spacecraft and the associated payload that took place on November 28, 2017 year from the Vostochny cosmodrome.
 
Oleg Skorobogatov, Deputy General Director of FSUE TsNIIMash was appointed as the head of the emergency commission; deputy head of the emergency commission - Alexander MEDVEDEV, deputy general director of FSUE TsNIIMash, general designer for launch vehicles and ground-based space infrastructure.
 
The commission includes specialists from ROSKOSMOS, leading research institutes of the rocket and space industry and industry enterprises, as well as representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry.
 
The work of the commission is planned until December 15, 2017, the next meeting will be held on December 1, 2017.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/24389/
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/30/2017 02:45 am
Well, the new rocket engineers have another case-study to learn from...
***

My non-expert observations:

If the accident commission confirms the failure was caused by navigational error due to the flight control system having no settings for a mission originating in Vostochniy, then this situation may resolve with a relatively quick return-to-flight for Fregat.

However, confirmation of this failure mode would reflect poorly on Russian spaceflight systems engineering.  (At the very least, those entities comprising this launch campaign.)

I imagine hundreds of Russian engineers, technicians and managers performing the Russian equivalent of a Homer Simpson "D'oh!"
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: IanThePineapple on 11/30/2017 02:52 am
Well, the new rocket engineers have another case-study to learn from...
***

My non-expert observations:

If the accident commission confirms the failure was caused by navigational error due to the flight control system having no settings for a mission originating in Vostochniy, then this situation may resolve with a relatively quick return-to-flight for Fregat.

However, confirmation of this failure mode would reflect poorly on Russian spaceflight systems engineering.  (At the very least, those entities comprising this launch campaign.)

I imagine hundreds of Russian engineers, technicians and managers performing the Russian equivalent of a Homer Simpson "D'oh!"

Yep, there's gonna be some firings happening at Roscosmos and Vostochny...

But this failure turns out both bad and good, bad that they lost a bunch of payloads for a stupid tiny mistake, but good because it's likely a quick fix.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 11/30/2017 03:02 am
But this failure turns out both bad and good, bad that they lost a bunch of payloads for a stupid tiny mistake, but good because it's likely a quick fix.

A quick fix for the proximate cause.  Maybe not such a quick fix for the institutional failings that allowed this to go by unnoticed.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: JimO on 11/30/2017 03:38 am
Weep for the heartbroken students who built the microsats -- part of a plan to encourage young people to seek a career in space technology, a critical challenge for the future of Russian 'cosmonautics'. Without the kids, it has no future.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: calapine on 11/30/2017 05:11 am
Wow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award.  :o

Truly mind boggling.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Star One on 11/30/2017 06:51 am
Wow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award.  :o

Truly mind boggling.

I’d imagine whoever was responsible for that will be sweating buckets now, and probably reviewing their career options rapidly.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Lewis007 on 11/30/2017 07:08 am
There is some turmoil within the Russian Orthodox Church over whether a priest’s blessing caused the Meteor satellite to crash into the Atlantic.

Well, next time, the priest should not only bless the Soyuz rocket, which performed fine, but also the Fregat upper stage  ;)

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/Orthodox-church-officials-defend-colleague-over-ill-fated-satellite-blessing-59740

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/30/2017 07:37 am
This failure cause is just as dumb as NASA getting metric and imperial measurements confused for Mars missions.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Archibald on 11/30/2017 07:49 am
Wow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award.  :o

Truly mind boggling.

As dumb as Ariane 4 flight 36 and that cloth hanging at the wrong place...

Also the Ariane 5 flight 1 fiasco (can't remember the exact story, it had some of Ariane 4 guidance system to save cost, and the system got lost by the different rocket flight profile)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 11/30/2017 08:12 am
As dumb as Ariane 4 flight 36 and that cloth hanging at the wrong place...

Also the Ariane 5 flight 1 fiasco (can't remember the exact story, it had some of Ariane 4 guidance system to save cost, and the system got lost by the different rocket flight profile)

Kind of, indeed.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: nacnud on 11/30/2017 10:43 am
List of dumb rocket mistakes, now to get back to this launch please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsqe3utT6rs
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: JimO on 11/30/2017 11:55 am
This failure cause is just as dumb as NASA getting metric and imperial measurements confused for Mars missions.

As has been documented, the units mixup excuse was put forward by NASA management to disguise the fatally flawed leadership decisions that actually made the disaster happen. Mainly it was deliberately ignoring clues to a serious navigation error by demanding operators 'prove you're off course' while denying them funding for the requested extra man-hours that would have been needed to do that.

See http://www.jamesoberg.com/mars_probe_spectrum_1999.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: the_other_Doug on 11/30/2017 04:04 pm
Wow. If Anatoly Zack is correct this wins the 'Dumbest Launch failure of the Year' award.  :o

Truly mind boggling.

I’d imagine whoever was responsible for that will be sweating buckets now, and probably reviewing their career options rapidly.

[Yakov] In Russia, "career options" review you. [/Yakov]

Seriously though, if the speculated cause is correct, it looks like a very Russian operational mistake- bureaucratic procedure trumping facts slapping you in the face.

Recall that the Cuban Missile Crisis was triggered because the Soviets were building their launch site out in the open according to fabrication procedures they would have followed within their own country- ignoring that they were building right on the U.S.'s doorstep.

At the risk of further derailing this thread -- no, in relation to Cuba.

First it was launch sites, not just one launch site.  Second, almost all of the "construction" -- which amounted to pouring a concrete hard pad and erecting tents -- was done at night, to make the actual construction phase less obvious.  And, when possible, the missiles themselves were kept in long tents.  Only when the missiles first arrived at their launch sites were the missile bodies actually visible from the air.  The first U-2 pictures that revealed the missiles caught a lucky break, in that the missiles it spotted, which had arrived overnight the night before, had not yet been covered by camouflage tents.

In point of fact, the best misdirection the Soviets enjoyed in Cuba was with the nuclear warheads they had sent there, and that was due to lack of sufficient resources.  You see, it was Soviet doctrine to build specific types of bunkers in which to store nuclear warheads.  Double fence lines, guard dogs, concrete bunkers, a specific shape to the enclosures... all things that Americans had associated with Soviet nuclear storage.

In Cuba, in each and every case, none of these things were available.  In one case, nuclear warheads were kept on the ship on which they were sent to Cuba.  In another, they were put into a non-ventilated cave, with no fencing and one manned checkpoint at the dirt road built to lead up to the cave entrance.  In another case, they were stored in a tent at one of the IRBM launch sites.

Because there was not one classic Soviet-style nuclear storage bunker in Cuba in 1962, American intelligence came to the dangerously incorrect conclusion that the Soviets had managed to transport and install missiles and the associated equipment to build and erect launch sites, but that the warheads had not yet reached Cuba, and that the blockade -- pardon me, the quarantine -- of Cuba had managed to at least keep the warheads off of "that imprisoned island".

Wrong.

Also, while one group of analysts had discovered the "Frogs" -- small cruise missiles normally armed with Hiroshima-sized fission weapons -- being offloaded at a Cuban seaport, they and their warheads were successfully transported to within ten miles of the Guantanamo Naval Station without anyone on the American side realizing it.  American intelligence was aware of movement in the jungle-covered bluffs that oversee Gitmo, but they assumed that this was conventional artillery being put in place for an extended conventional attack on the naval base.

The Soviets succeeded in deploying an awful lot of weaponry across Cuba that, because it was moved and assembled at night, American intelligence wasn't aware of.  It was only in occasional cases (like at what was labeled the San Cristobal site), where conditions would not allow underground bunkers, where American reconnaissance was able to spot the missiles themselves.  More often, they spotted the tents containing the missiles.

From what I've read, the non-optimal conditions were so challenging that the Soviet commander of Operation Anadyr in Cuba became totally bedridden with bleeding ulcers for most of the time the missiles, warheads and associated support equipment (like SAM installations and Ilyushin bombers) were arriving and being deployed.  He was only able to rouse himself from his sick bed after the Americans discovered what was happening 90 miles from their borders...

To connect this back to the launch failure and its reported really stupid cause, statements like that above in re the Cuban Adventure (as the Soviets labeled it at the time) just serve to further a stereotype of the Russian technological industries as backwards, and the average Russian engineer/worker as stupid and oafish.  While every stereotype has a small nugget of truth buried somewhere within, I don't think it's either fair or accurate to broad-brush this -- or the oft-discussed high total number of Russian launch failures -- with that stereotype.

That's why I opened a thread in the Russian Launchers forum, here, just to discuss what is happening in Russia's space industry, while trying to penetrate beyond the stereotype.  I mean, we're all human, and one of the definitions of being human is being fallible.  We make mistakes.  Not just Russians, but all of us.

It seems to me that the only way to keep inevitable human mistakes from costing missions, or even lives, is to have several layers of people (and systems) run through the results of the previous layer, looking for and correcting prior mistakes.  Yes, it costs more, but if it reduces even more expensive failures, it seems to me that it would be worth the investment.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: mn on 11/30/2017 04:15 pm
Quote
ROSKOSMOS. ANALYSIS OF THE CAUSES OF FAILED LAUNCH
11/29/2012 9:26 PM
....

The work of the commission is planned until December 15, 2017, the next meeting will be held on December 1, 2017.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/24389/

That seems like a very short lived commission, is that typical? or does it mean they already know the conclusion even before they started.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 11/30/2017 04:20 pm
Another potential explanation given to RIA Novosti

Quote
A source described the possible reason for the unsuccessful launch from Vostochny
Fregat and 19 satellites could have fallen into the ocean due to an error in the calculation of azimuth, a source in the space industry told RIA Novosti.

The problem, perhaps, is that the azimuth was counted differently in Soyuz and Fregat, [resp.] clockwise and counterclockwise. Fregat needed to turn by 2 degrees, and instead it started to turn 358 degrees, lost its orientation and fell into the ocean, "- said the interlocutor to this agency.

https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html (https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: mn on 11/30/2017 04:31 pm
Another potential explanation given to RIA Novosti

Quote
A source described the possible reason for the unsuccessful launch from Vostochny
Fregat and 19 satellites could have fallen into the ocean due to an error in the calculation of azimuth, a source in the space industry told RIA Novosti.

The problem, perhaps, is that the azimuth was counted differently in Soyuz and Fregat, [resp.] clockwise and counterclockwise. Fregat needed to turn by 2 degrees, and instead it started to turn 358 degrees, lost its orientation and fell into the ocean, "- said the interlocutor to this agency.

https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html (https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html)

And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?

Edit: This was sarcasm, just in case that was not obvious.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/30/2017 05:08 pm
And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: mn on 11/30/2017 05:25 pm
And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.

No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.

This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.

We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: kevin-rf on 11/30/2017 08:04 pm
Another potential explanation given to RIA Novosti

Quote
A source described the possible reason for the unsuccessful launch from Vostochny
Fregat and 19 satellites could have fallen into the ocean due to an error in the calculation of azimuth, a source in the space industry told RIA Novosti.

The problem, perhaps, is that the azimuth was counted differently in Soyuz and Fregat, [resp.] clockwise and counterclockwise. Fregat needed to turn by 2 degrees, and instead it started to turn 358 degrees, lost its orientation and fell into the ocean, "- said the interlocutor to this agency.

https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html (https://ria.ru/science/20171130/1509955550.html)

Gimbal lock? As in shades of Ekspress-AM4?

I would have thought an upper stage would be using 360 degree gyro... maybe not?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 11/30/2017 08:29 pm

And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.


No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.


This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.


We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.
I've never said a word on azimuth calculations or the RIA Novosti news item. We suspect (and the AIB lead by Oleg Skorobogatov knows) Fregat did make a suicidal burn being in wrong attitude. The current version is that Fregat started the pre-burn attitude maneuver in a wrong direction which took inacceptably long time and led to bad attitude at burn start. The problem is to find why the direction was wrong.


And well, to mn. Yes, this specific version of Soyuz-2 named 372РН17 was used for the first time, and for the first time with Fregat.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 11/30/2017 08:48 pm

And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.


No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.


This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.


We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.
I've never said a word on azimuth calculations or the RIA Novosti news item. We suspect (and the AIB lead by Oleg Skorobogatov knows) Fregat did make a suicidal burn being in wrong attitude. The current version is that Fregat started the pre-burn attitude maneuver in a wrong direction which took inacceptably long time and led to bad attitude at burn start. The problem is to find why the direction was wrong.


And well, to mn. Yes, this specific version of Soyuz-2 named 372РН17 was used for the first time, and for the first time with Fregat.

What's the difference between 372PH17 and other Soyuz-2.1B versions? Is it a special version for Vostochny?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: mn on 11/30/2017 09:01 pm

And of course this is the first time a Fregat was launched on a Soyuz ?
Exactly. Even if they know (seems they do) Fregat tried the almost-360-degrees maneuver (in pitch or yaw, rumors differ) and couldn't finish it before engine start time, they need to understand why Fregat tried this fo the first time in this particular launch.


No not at all, I don't think they 'know' this.


This sounds like someone in the industry who happens to know that they use different azimuth calculations just said 'well this is possible', and while yes it is technically possibly, I doesn't seem from that published report that someone seriously thinks this is indeed what happened.


We see this all the time in any type of failure/accident. Someone who knows how the machine works says 'well this is possible' and the media runs with it as if this expert believes this is what happened. And at least this report is worded quite clearly to say this 'could have happened', so this report is even better than typical.
I've never said a word on azimuth calculations or the RIA Novosti news item. We suspect (and the AIB lead by Oleg Skorobogatov knows) Fregat did make a suicidal burn being in wrong attitude. The current version is that Fregat started the pre-burn attitude maneuver in a wrong direction which took inacceptably long time and led to bad attitude at burn start. The problem is to find why the direction was wrong.


And well, to mn. Yes, this specific version of Soyuz-2 named 372РН17 was used for the first time, and for the first time with Fregat.

Thanks for the correction, I mistakenly thought you were referring to the ria.ru article, didn't realize you had other sources.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Remes on 11/30/2017 09:02 pm

I would have thought an upper stage would be using 360 degree gyro... maybe not?

According to this site:

http://www.npcap.ru/en/main-directions-of-activity/inertial-control-systems/creation-of-inertial-control-systems/gimbaled-inertial-navigation-system-(gins).html

Pitch and roll are without limit (I guess slip rings make that possible, I don't know any other solution*). Yaw is limited to +-40°, but the site says it has gyro torquers. So it should be possible to have endless rotation, too.

Edit: * talking about mechanical gyros without torquers
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: SLC on 11/30/2017 11:08 pm
More detail on Fregat gyroscope problem from Anatoly Zak:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/30/2017 11:23 pm
They've launched Fregat from 63.34 E (Baikonur), 40.46 E (Plesetsk), and 52.8 W (Kourou), but never from 128.3 E.  Could there be a surprise due to the longitude, explaining the mention of Glonass in one theory?  I have to wonder if the real reason for the failure isn't as simple as we might currently believe.

 - Ed Kyle
yep this has been confirmed and narrowed down to the guidance computer commanding the upper stage to rotate 360 degrees resulting in complete gyro lock.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: CaptainScarlett on 12/01/2017 12:24 am
Svobodny knows de trouble I seen.....
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 08:14 am
What's the difference between 372PH17 and other Soyuz-2.1B versions? Is it a special version for Vostochny?
Mainly new flight control computer system based on Malakhit-7 with changes to some other instruments.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/01/2017 04:19 pm
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24410/

Google translation:
The calculations showed that the most probable place of the fall of the KGC is the northern part of the Atlantic Ocean, 42 'of northern latitude, 38' of western longitude with a spread along the fall path -120 +230 km, +-45 km perpendicular to the fall track.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 04:57 pm
So the AIB cleared Soyuz-2 and confirmed the reentry point of the orbital block (КГЧ) = Fregat + payload.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/01/2017 06:40 pm
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: deruch on 12/01/2017 07:00 pm
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.

Separation malfunction or some unexpected rotation rate prior to separation could certainly have been a contributing factor (I'm not suggesting this was the case).  There's no requirement that failures are single point.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/01/2017 08:08 pm
Assuming that the failure mode has been identified:

Is this a failure that could have been/should have been caught in pre-flight simulation?

Or the systems engineering?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 08:19 pm
What's the difference between 372PH17 and other Soyuz-2.1B versions? Is it a special version for Vostochny?
Mainly new flight control computer system based on Malakhit-7 with changes to some other instruments.
Fregat uses its own flight control computer whereas what you list only controls the basic Soyuz configuration.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 08:25 pm
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.

Separation malfunction or some unexpected rotation rate prior to separation could certainly have been a contributing factor (I'm not suggesting this was the case).  There's no requirement that failures are single point.
that has pretty much been ruled out at this point. The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started. That much is known at this point.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Tomness on 12/01/2017 08:26 pm
So Soyuz did its job well and Fregat-M caused the failure or TBD?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 08:32 pm
So Soyuz did its job well and Fregat-M caused the failure or TBD?
yes and kind of. Fregat-M issue is similar to an issue that occurred with Briz-M and even occurred with the Soyuz Launch escape system on its first launch attempt however are all azimuth based but were caused by different reasons.

The Fregat-M issue is both a design oversight and potential human error which is the part that the state commission is trying to answer at this point. Read the full article via the link below:

http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1201
Quote
Roscosmos clears Soyuz-2 series, pinpoints Fregat crash site

On Dec. 1, 2017, the accident commission met to review causes of the November 28 Soyuz failure, Roskosmos State Corporation announced. According to Roskosmos, the latest calculations showed that the most likely crash site for the payload section is the Northern Atlantic at a point 42 degrees North latitude and 38 degrees West longitude, with a possible deviation of -120 or +230 kilometers along the ground track of the mission and 45 kilometers left and right from the ground track.

The accident commission decided to permit further launches of the Soyuz-2 rocket series according to the previously approved schedule, Roskosmos said. At the same time, the commission will continue work with the next meeting set on Dec. 12, 2017.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 09:46 pm
The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started.
Where did you get this strange idea of gyro lock experienced?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 09:48 pm
Fregat uses its own flight control computer whereas what you list only controls the basic Soyuz configuration.
Well, I was answering the ironical comment on Fregat being first time on Soyuz. My point is that Fregat indeed was for the first time on this particular version of Soyuz-2 launch vehicle with this control system. I do know there are two control systems there.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 09:56 pm
The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started.
Where did you get this strange idea of gyro lock experienced?

http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
...
After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.

...
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 10:04 pm
The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started.
Where did you get this strange idea of gyro lock experienced?

http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
...
After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.

...

Well, please explain me what is the referenced text about.

Quote
The geographical azimuth of previous Soyuz/Fregat launcher from Baikonur, Plesetsk and Kourou normally laid within a range from positive 140 to negative 140 degrees. To bring the gyroscopic guidance system into operational readiness, its main platform has to be rotated into a zero-degree position via a shortest possible route. The azimuth of the ill-fated Vostochny launch was 174 degrees, and with an additional 10 degrees for the Fregat's reference axis, it meant that its gyro platform had to turn 184 degrees in order to reach the required "zero" position.


Azimuth is, by definition, the angle between North (or South in some cases) and the direction. Which is the direction here with the azimuth of 174°?

Below is the map of Soyuz pad at Vostochny for reference.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 10:27 pm
The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started.
Where did you get this strange idea of gyro lock experienced?

http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
...
After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.

...

Well, please explain me what is the referenced text about.

Quote
The geographical azimuth of previous Soyuz/Fregat launcher from Baikonur, Plesetsk and Kourou normally laid within a range from positive 140 to negative 140 degrees. To bring the gyroscopic guidance system into operational readiness, its main platform has to be rotated into a zero-degree position via a shortest possible route. The azimuth of the ill-fated Vostochny launch was 174 degrees, and with an additional 10 degrees for the Fregat's reference axis, it meant that its gyro platform had to turn 184 degrees in order to reach the required "zero" position.


Azimuth is, by definition, the angle between North (or South in some cases) and the direction. Which is the direction here with the azimuth of 174°?

Below is the map of Soyuz pad at Vostochny for reference.

I don't know how to explain it very well but, as I understand it like Briz-M one ring of the Fregats Gyros cannot support the amount of rotation that occurred during the timeline to orient for the burn since the Azimuth that was programmed in to the IGS and main computer were read differently that resulted in a similar situation as below but under entirely different circumstances:

Reference: Ekspress-AM4
Someone on the NK forums (http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=792945#792945) saw the preliminary investigation report from ILS and reported the following findings:

Quote
Quote:
between the third and fourth main engine burns the "Briz-M" upper stage has lost inertial reference system.


Quote
Quote:
Telemetry from "Briz-M" upper stage was obtained after the 4th burn. Telemetry was unstable, the signal continued to decline up to the loss of telemetry in approximately 12 minutes after receiving it.


Quote
Quote:
It was concluded that the middle gimbal ring (Pitch ring), reached a hard stop. The remaining 2 rings - yaw and roll - have a degree of freedom of 360°. At this point, inertial reference system was lost, and the error in the orientation of the pitch continued to accumulate over the length of flight.


Quote
Quote:
The entire flight program was studied. According to it, before maneuvering, guidance system of "Briz-M" upper stage performs a delta-turn of the second gimbal ring (pitch ring) in order to avoid the risk of locking the gyro. Analysis of the mission program revealed that the time allocated for the
delta-turn introduced into the program was incorrectly too little for preparing the maneuver before the third main engine burn.

http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
In the Soyuz rocket, the gyro platform normally rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position, providing the correct guidance. However on the Fregat, the shortest path for its platform to a zero-degree position was to increase its angle from 184 to 360 degrees. Essentially, the platform came to the same position, but this is not how the software in the main flight control computer on the Fregat interpreted the situation. Instead, the computer decided that the spacecraft had been 360 degrees off target and dutifully commanded its thrusters to fire to turn it around to the required zero-degree position. After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/01/2017 10:39 pm
I don't know how to explain it very well but, as I understand it like Briz-M one ring of the Fregats Gyros cannot support the amount of rotation that occurred during the timeline to orient for the burn since the Azimuth that was programmed in to the IGS and main computer were read differently that resulted in a similar situation as below but under entirely different circumstances:
http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
In the Soyuz rocket, the gyro platform normally rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position, providing the correct guidance. However on the Fregat, the shortest path for its platform to a zero-degree position was to increase its angle from 184 to 360 degrees. Essentially, the platform came to the same position, but this is not how the software in the main flight control computer on the Fregat interpreted the situation. Instead, the computer decided that the spacecraft had been 360 degrees off target and dutifully commanded its thrusters to fire to turn it around to the required zero-degree position. After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.

I do not understand this at all.
Soyuz gyro platform normally rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position -- when does it do this and for what purpose?
And what does the Fregat gyro platform do at the same time as the Soyuz gyro platform does this?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/02/2017 12:25 am
I don't know how to explain it very well but, as I understand it like Briz-M one ring of the Fregats Gyros cannot support the amount of rotation that occurred during the timeline to orient for the burn since the Azimuth that was programmed in to the IGS and main computer were read differently that resulted in a similar situation as below but under entirely different circumstances:
http://russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1130
Quote
In the Soyuz rocket, the gyro platform normally rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position, providing the correct guidance. However on the Fregat, the shortest path for its platform to a zero-degree position was to increase its angle from 184 to 360 degrees. Essentially, the platform came to the same position, but this is not how the software in the main flight control computer on the Fregat interpreted the situation. Instead, the computer decided that the spacecraft had been 360 degrees off target and dutifully commanded its thrusters to fire to turn it around to the required zero-degree position. After a roughly 60-degree turn, the gyroscope system on the Fregat stalled, essentially leaving the vehicle without any ability to orient itself in space.

I do not understand this at all.
Soyuz gyro platform normally rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position -- when does it do this and for what purpose?
And what does the Fregat gyro platform do at the same time as the Soyuz gyro platform does this?

The 2 Gyro platforms are aligned before liftoff just like an airplanes INU's . The 2 gyro platforms do not interact with each other upon liftoff until the Soyuz third stage triggers its shutdown and separation auto-command sequence and hands command and control over to Fregats Gyro Platform and Main computer.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: deruch on 12/02/2017 01:18 am
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.

Separation malfunction or some unexpected rotation rate prior to separation could certainly have been a contributing factor (I'm not suggesting this was the case).  There's no requirement that failures are single point.
that has pretty much been ruled out at this point. The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started. That much is known at this point.

Ben, the guy I was replying to, was saying that it would have taken "extraordinary evidence" to implicate Soyuz, I was just pointing out that there were plenty of ways in which it was theoretically possible for Soyuz to have been involved in the failure.  I wasn't suggesting that any of them were true in this particular.  Based on released data and statements it seems that none of them apply, but I'm sure they were all investigated prior to "clearing" Soyuz.  Thanks for clarification anyways.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/02/2017 01:40 am
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.

Separation malfunction or some unexpected rotation rate prior to separation could certainly have been a contributing factor (I'm not suggesting this was the case).  There's no requirement that failures are single point.
that has pretty much been ruled out at this point. The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started. That much is known at this point.

Ben, the guy I was replying to, was saying that it would have taken "extraordinary evidence" to implicate Soyuz, I was just pointing out that there were plenty of ways in which it was theoretically possible for Soyuz to have been involved in the failure.  I wasn't suggesting that any of them were true in this particular.  Based on released data and statements it seems that none of them apply, but I'm sure they were all investigated prior to "clearing" Soyuz.  Thanks for clarification anyways.
Well if we go back to the roots R-7 and R-7A were originally designed to be deployed all over the Soviet motherland although this never ended up being carried out. If data and capability was in fact transferred to each successive generation of R-7 based launcher then launch sites inside Russia would not be of issue.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: pargoo on 12/02/2017 02:04 am
Best launch pic I've found so far.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/02/2017 07:24 am
The 2 Gyro platforms are aligned before liftoff just like an airplanes INU's . The 2 gyro platforms do not interact with each other upon liftoff until the Soyuz third stage triggers its shutdown and separation auto-command sequence and hands command and control over to Fregats Gyro Platform and Main computer.
You haven't answer any of my questions.
What is azimuth in this context? Why it is 174 degrees for Vostochny and less then 140 degrees for Baykonur for example?
When is Soyuz gyro platform rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position and why?
Is this rotation related to the rocket body roll for somewhat like 180 degrees soon after liftoff which is observed in video?
What does the Fregat gyro platform do at the same time as the Soyuz gyro platform rotates?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: AncientU on 12/02/2017 11:17 am
I've got to say that it would have taken extraordinary evidence to point a finger at the Soyuz-2. From all accounts, the mission was running nominally right up to the point Fregat was in free flight and apparently had some kind of electronic nervous breakdown.

Separation malfunction or some unexpected rotation rate prior to separation could certainly have been a contributing factor (I'm not suggesting this was the case).  There's no requirement that failures are single point.
that has pretty much been ruled out at this point. The data from Fregat-M on the flight clearly points to the inertial guidance system trying to align the upper stack to the correct orientation for the first burn but the flight computer overrode the IGS and sent additional commands to continue the rotation at which point the 2 sets of gyros experienced full gyro lock and an control was lost before the burn even started. That much is known at this point.

Ben, the guy I was replying to, was saying that it would have taken "extraordinary evidence" to implicate Soyuz, I was just pointing out that there were plenty of ways in which it was theoretically possible for Soyuz to have been involved in the failure.  I wasn't suggesting that any of them were true in this particular.  Based on released data and statements it seems that none of them apply, but I'm sure they were all investigated prior to "clearing" Soyuz.  Thanks for clarification anyways.

How did they 'clear' the pre-flight quality control?
Maybe they assume it cannot (or need not) be improved...

Astounding that they plan to continue launches straight away.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: koshvv on 12/02/2017 01:34 pm
I hope I recall it right. Corrections are welcome.

What is azimuth in this context?
It's the angle between launch direction and direction "bottom" block is facing, as depicted on attached images.

Quote
Why it is 174 degrees for Vostochny and less then 140 degrees for Baykonur for example?
Look at attached schemes.

Quote
When is Soyuz gyro platform rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position and why?
Rocket rotates shortly after liftoff. Control system works in such way that rocket must have orientation with particular side booster facing launch direction. Then it will face ground as rocket pitches.
Only Soyuz 2 can do this. Older Souyz needs turning launch pad at required angle. Baikonur launch pads have rotating tables for this.

Quote
Is this rotation related to the rocket body roll for somewhat like 180 degrees soon after liftoff which is observed in video
This is it.

Edit: removed irrelevant scheme.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/02/2017 02:38 pm
koshvv, thank you very much for clarification.
So, when Soyuz rolls 174° counterclockwise (to the right) its gyro platform changes position from 174° to 0°, is it correct?
In this case I assume that at the same time, in the same roll Fregat gyro platform changes position from 184° to 10°, is it correct?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: koshvv on 12/02/2017 02:54 pm
So, when Soyuz rolls 174° counterclockwise (to the right) its gyro platform changes position from 174° to 0°, is it correct?
Yes.

Quote
In this case I assume that at the same time, in the same roll Fregat gyro platform changes position from 184° to 10°, is it correct?
I don't really know about Fregat.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/02/2017 03:31 pm
Trying to get my head around this. The Soyuz roll from Baikonur is opposite to the other launch sites? Problem with Vostochny is that the Fregat requires a roll of 184°? Soyuz provides 174° of roll. The Fregat expects that to happen in the opposite direction?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/02/2017 03:51 pm
Trying to get my head around this. The Soyuz roll from Baikonur is opposite to the other launch sites? Problem with Vostochny is that the Fregat requires a roll of 184°? Soyuz provides 174° of roll. The Fregat expects that to happen in the opposite direction?
I believe that fregat gyro platform can accept either which is a problem for Fregat Main Computer which overrode the gyros and initiated a further 360 degree roll because the main computer wanted to reach 0 degrees first because It did not want to sit go via 360 degrees. This resulted in the complete stalling and loss of the Gyro Platform because one of the gyros rings cannot rotate a full 360 degrees rapidly. This is related to Briz US Family as the Gyros I think are from the same manufacturer.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Danderman on 12/02/2017 04:35 pm
I have the feeling that there is some confusion between roll and yaw in this discussion.  If the Fregat control system failed due to excessive roll, the engine would still be pointed in the correct direction. If Fregat failed due to excess yaw, then no, the engine would be pointed in the wrong direction at the time of failure, most likely.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Sam Ho on 12/02/2017 04:44 pm
Trying to get my head around this. The Soyuz roll from Baikonur is opposite to the other launch sites? Problem with Vostochny is that the Fregat requires a roll of 184°? Soyuz provides 174° of roll. The Fregat expects that to happen in the opposite direction?
I believe that fregat gyro platform can accept either which is a problem for Fregat Main Computer which overrode the gyros and initiated a further 360 degree roll because the main computer wanted to reach 0 degrees first because It did not want to sit go via 360 degrees. This resulted in the complete stalling and loss of the Gyro Platform because one of the gyros rings cannot rotate a full 360 degrees rapidly. This is related to Briz US Family as the Gyros I think are from the same manufacturer.
Not knowing any details of how the Soyuz and Fregat guidance software is written, it sounds like for a launch from Vostochny to SSO, the Soyuz requires a post-launch roll program of 174°.  Meanwhile, the Fregat IMU is clocked 10° off from Soyuz, so it has a roll angle of 10° on the pad and a roll target of 184°, which it translated to -176°.  The Fregat flight software is in monitoring mode until stage separation, propagating its state vector, and adds the 174° roll flown by Soyuz to its initial roll angle of 10°.  At separation, the Fregat notes its roll angle of 184°, compares it to the -176° target, and commands a -360° roll, which results in gyro lockup and loss of attitude reference.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: koshvv on 12/02/2017 04:57 pm
Trying to get my head around this. The Soyuz roll from Baikonur is opposite to the other launch sites?
Sorry, I should have mention Soyuz 2 was never actually launched from Site 1. It's theoretical situation.
Site 31 was used for all Soyuz 2 launches from Baikonur.

Quote
Problem with Vostochny is that the Fregat requires a roll of 184°? Soyuz provides 174° of roll. The Fregat expects that to happen in the opposite direction?
Anatoly Zak seems to say this. I fail to understand what happened.
What we can see, however, is when launching due North from Vostochny site, angles may be over 180 for Fregat and under 180 for Soyuz, while for all other sites both angles should be either over or under 180 degrees.   

Here also is Plesetsk Site 43 https://www.google.ru/maps/@62.9277848,40.454042,469m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Flame ducts on pads are oriented North like Kourou and NW like Baikonur Site 31.

I too can't understand how this peculiarity of Vostochny pad caused trouble, if it did at all.

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: koshvv on 12/02/2017 05:27 pm
Not knowing any details of how the Soyuz and Fregat guidance software is written, it sounds like for a launch from Vostochny to SSO, the Soyuz requires a post-launch roll program of 174°
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-FltpndeIs
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Danderman on 12/02/2017 08:37 pm
I guess everyone has forgotten that at stage separation, it is not usual for some roll to be imparted, and so if the upper stage avionics cannot compensate for some "unexpected" roll, there will be lots of failures. Same with pitch and yaw.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Sam Ho on 12/02/2017 09:10 pm
I guess everyone has forgotten that at stage separation, it is not usual for some roll to be imparted, and so if the upper stage avionics cannot compensate for some "unexpected" roll, there will be lots of failures. Same with pitch and yaw.
The theory Anatoly Zak's sources and others are discussing is not about tip-off rates induced at separation.  Rather, it is about Fregat attempting to null out a fictitious 360° roll angle error.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/02/2017 10:44 pm
I guess everyone has forgotten that at stage separation, it is not usual for some roll to be imparted, and so if the upper stage avionics cannot compensate for some "unexpected" roll, there will be lots of failures. Same with pitch and yaw.
The theory Anatoly Zak's sources and others are discussing is not about tip-off rates induced at separation.  Rather, it is about Fregat attempting to null out a fictitious 360° roll angle error.

While I believe the story of Fregat trying to roll into correct position via long way (close but less than 360°) is true I think the explanation of this event by Anatoliy Zak is wrong. 
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: YzeStudent on 12/02/2017 11:30 pm
...

When is Soyuz gyro platform rotated from 174 degrees back to a zero position and why?....

Just to be correct in terms… The gyro platform is not rotated. The IMU provides to the LV the inertial coordinate system fixed at liftoff. LV itself performs rotation relative to this coordinate system.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Arch Admiral on 12/03/2017 08:33 am
The diagrams by koshvv seem to assume that all launch azimuths are due north, wheras most Soyuz pads have launched into many different orbital inclinations, each of which requires a different launch azimuth. The exception is the one at Kourou, which always launches a little south of due east even though the launch complex is oriented N-S (Why?).

The part of the story which really makes no sense is having the zero angle in any coordinate different for the two guidance systems.
This is just asking for trouble.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/03/2017 08:38 am
The diagrams by koshvv seem to assume that all launch azimuths are due north, wheras most Soyuz pads have launched into many different orbital inclinations, each of which requires a different launch azimuth. The exception is the one at Kourou, which always launches a little south of due east even though the launch complex is oriented N-S (Why?).

The part of the story which really makes no sense is having the zero angle in any coordinate different for the two guidance systems.
This is just asking for trouble.
1. At least three different launch azimuths have been used in Kourou -- for GTO, Galileo and SSO orbits.
2. In this picture from Soyuz manual we see that axes of Soyuz and Fregat are parallel.

Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: koshvv on 12/03/2017 11:31 am
The diagrams by koshvv seem to assume that all launch azimuths are due north
There are no assumptions. It's merely an illustration on how you measure angle of post-liftoff roll. Failed launch was to SSO, so roughly North was better fitting for purpose of illustration.

Quote
, wheras most Soyuz pads have launched into many different orbital inclinations, each of which requires a different launch azimuth.
You can draw any other launch azimuth and measure angle in a way depicted - between launch azimuth and Block B orientation. For Kourou it will be difference between 135 degrees clockwise (SE) and launch azimuth.

Quote
The exception is the one at Kourou, which always launches a little south of due east even though the launch complex is oriented N-S (Why?).
No, not always. Look at Sentinel-1A or Pleiades launch. You can't reach SSO launching East, you must launch almost due North. If you need to reach GTO orbit, launch East. Launch roughly NE if you delivering Galileo sats.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 12/03/2017 06:31 pm
 
Quote
it transpires that Fregat space tug for the ill-fated mission was originally built for a Baikonur launch
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1203
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/03/2017 07:58 pm
Quote
it transpires that Fregat space tug for the ill-fated mission was originally built for a Baikonur launch
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1203
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1203
...was originally built for the launch of the Rezonans scientific satellites from Baikonur...
May be Stan Black can find a seriel number ?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/03/2017 09:04 pm
Quote
it transpires that Fregat space tug for the ill-fated mission was originally built for a Baikonur launch
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1203
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html#1203
...was originally built for the launch of the Rezonans scientific satellites from Baikonur...
May be Stan Black can find a seriel number ?

The serial number should indicate the launch site, here is an example how to understand:-
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42875.msg1684263#msg1684263

So far I have not found reference to a Fregat openly ordered for Vostochny. For this launch only a new Soyuz-2 rocket was ordered.

Obvious point to note that the Fregat used by Meteor-M has a launch vehicle adapter (PKhO) for an 81KS type fairing. Rezonans uses the 14S737 fairing.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39795.0

Two Fregat were procured, each intended to carry two Rezonans satellites.

Some information can be found in tender documentation for the delivery to the launch site. These sometimes indicate for insurance purposes the contract the Fregat were sourced from.

For Kanopus-V-IK it quotes the contract numbers for the 1st Rezonans pair.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/44fz/filestore/public/1.0/download/priz/file.html?uid=3DB3954C46BB0094E053AC110725A2D4

It looks like the 2nd Rezonans Fregat & fairing was intended for Kanopus-V № 3, № 4.
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/44fz/filestore/public/1.0/download/priz/file.html?uid=57063A977DF600B4E0530A86121FB974
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/44fz/filestore/public/1.0/download/priz/file.html?uid=58F8C8280D97014CE0530A86121FE68C

Similar documentation for this Fregat’s delivery to the launch site, does not quote any contract numbers. It does though indicate that the Fregat cost 366,912,000 rubles.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15064.msg1722849#msg1722849
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15064.msg1650032#msg1650032
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 12/04/2017 09:14 pm
What's the difference between 372PH17 and other Soyuz-2.1B versions? Is it a special version for Vostochny?
Mainly new flight control computer system based on Malakhit-7 with changes to some other instruments.

This is a description in Russian for the 1a version. Google can be used to translate.

Quote
РН «Союз-2» этапа 1а для космодрома «Восточный» (изделие 372РН16) предназначена для обеспечения запусков автоматических космических аппаратов различного назначения на орбиты различных высот и наклонений, а также на отлетные траектории.
Изделие 372РН16 для космодрома «Восточный» создана путем адаптации базовой РН «Союз-2» этапа 1а (14А14), используемой на космодромах «Байконур» и «Плесецк», к условиям эксплуатации на космодроме «Восточный».
Изделие 372РН16 имеет следующие отличия от базовой РН «Союз-2» этапа 1а, используемой на космодромах «Байконур» и «Плесецк»:
–   доработаны места вывода дренажей окислителя и горючего блока III ступени, центрального блока, дренажей окислителя боковых блоков для установки пароотводов под МБО;
–   установлены новые ХИТ БАС-V, не требующие использования ЗАС;
–   установлена новая БЦВС «Малахит-7»;
–   установлена облегченная БКС СУ;
–   установлены новые БСИУЗ;
–   установлена новая радиотелеметрическая система РТСЦМ-1;
–   установлена высокоскоростная абонентская аппаратура ретрансляции;
–   установлена бортовая аппаратура средств видеоконтроля.
Изделие 372РН16 является трехступенчатой РН со смешанной схемой работы ступеней, где I и II ступени работают по схеме «пакет», a III ступень - по схеме «тандем».

В состав РН 372РН16 входят:
–   изделие 374БЛ05 (сборка блоков I - II ступеней);
–   изделие 374БЛ06 (блок III ступени);
–   бортовая аппаратура системы управления (БАСУ);
–   бортовые средства измерения уровня заправки (БСИУЗ);
–   бортовая аппаратура средств измерений (БАСИ);
–   средства разделения и отделения.

Основные размеры РН 372РН16:
–   полная длина - 33883 мм;
–   длина сборки блоков I - II ступеней - 27138 мм;
–   длина блока III ступени - 6745 мм;
–   максимальный поперечный размер РН (по воздушным рулям) - 10303 мм;
–   максимальный диаметр центрального блока - 2950 мм;
–   максимальный диаметр бокового блока - 2680 мм;
–   максимальный диаметр блока III ступени - 2660 мм.

РН 372РН16 состоит из двух окончательно собранных и испытанных изделий:
1)   изделия 374БЛ05, в состав которого входит центральный блок с маршевым двигателем 14Д21 и рулевыми агрегатами Д664-000 и четырех боковых блоков с двигателями 14Д22 и РА Д664-200, Д664-400.
2)   изделия 374БЛ06 (блок третьей ступени) с маршевым двигателем 11Д55.

http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/download/download.html?id=21167354
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/223/purchase/public/purchase/info/documents.html?noticeId=3610922
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 12/05/2017 10:55 am
What's the difference between 372PH17 and other Soyuz-2.1B versions? Is it a special version for Vostochny?
Mainly new flight control computer system based on Malakhit-7 with changes to some other instruments.

This is a description in Russian for the 1a version. Google can be used to translate.

Thanks!

So, to sum up in the standard language of this forum:

- The Vostochny Soyuz-2 version is 372RN17 (not PH, that was cyrillic).

- It features improved draining lines for fuel and oxidizer in the 3rd (Block I) stage and central (Block A) stage, as well as the oxidizer draining lines for the side blocks.
- The aforementioned Malakhit-7.
- New BSIUZ (control equipment of on-board measuring instruments level of refueling).
- New telemetry relay system (RTSTsM-1)
- High-speed "subscriber" relay system.
- On-board video.
- A new KhIT BAS-V that doesn't require ZAS, as well as a lightweight BCS-SS (no idea what these are).
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/05/2017 11:02 am
I wonder if anyone verified the GNC data during the launch campaign or I wonder if that wasn't part of the written procedure for some reason (as most stages are purchased for a specific launch site and never swapped around) and no-one had the initiative to do it anyway?
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 12/05/2017 12:48 pm
How much was the contract value for the Meteor-M 2-1 mission (satellite + launch)? Asking to understand how likely it is they will find funds for a replacement Meteor-M 2-3, considering the quoted $44M insurance.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/05/2017 01:48 pm
How much was the contract value for the Meteor-M 2-1 mission (satellite + launch)? Asking to understand how likely it is they will find funds for a replacement Meteor-M 2-3, considering the quoted $44M insurance.
I do not know how these numbers result (and what currency it is - ruble ?)   
quote:
"1.65 billion rubles + 376.8 billion for Fregat + 1.25 billion"
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: SLC on 12/05/2017 01:52 pm
I wonder if anyone verified the GNC data during the launch campaign or I wonder if that wasn't part of the written procedure for some reason (as most stages are purchased for a specific launch site and never swapped around) and no-one had the initiative to do it anyway?
I think Anatoly Zak addresses exactly that point here: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html

"At the same time, experts agree that the problem could theoretically have been resolved before launch, if not for the poor coordination between the developers of the flight control systems of the Soyuz-2 launch vehicle and their colleagues working on flight controls for the Fregat. As one poster on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki forum noted: in the deluge of pre-launch paperwork between RKTs Progress in Samara, which built Soyuz-2, and NPO Lavochkin, which developed Fregat, discussing a multitude of legal issues, confirming and reconfirming various agreements and reminders, there was not a single memo attracting the developers’ attention to a different alignment of the launch pad in Vostochny from that of other sites. Obviously, such information was buried in the working documentation on the mission, but nobody thought about the effect of this fact on the launch. The lower echelon of engineers simply missed that detail, while top managers had no idea at all, because, the majority of them lacked the necessary qualifications, the poster said…"
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: eeergo on 12/05/2017 01:58 pm
How much was the contract value for the Meteor-M 2-1 mission (satellite + launch)? Asking to understand how likely it is they will find funds for a replacement Meteor-M 2-3, considering the quoted $44M insurance.
I do not know how these numbers result (and what currency it is - ruble ?)   
quote:
"1.65 billion rubles + 376.8 billion for Fregat + 1.25 billion"
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html

It's written: USD ;) That is, it was insured for 2.6 billion rubles.

I think the Fregat cost is in error in Mr Zak's website (it should be million, not billion), so total costs would have been ~3.28 billion rubles. That is, there's a deficit of ~670 million rubles assuming a full insurance payment. Hopefully then, if political will doesn't interfere, Nº2-3 could be funded.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/05/2017 02:03 pm
I think also Fregat costs are wrong.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/05/2017 02:16 pm
I think also Fregat costs are wrong.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15064.msg1003556#msg1003556
Here are called 366.912.000 ruble for the "Fregat" for "Rezonans 1" satellite. (which was used)
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/05/2017 02:26 pm
How much was the contract value for the Meteor-M 2-1 mission (satellite + launch)? Asking to understand how likely it is they will find funds for a replacement Meteor-M 2-3, considering the quoted $44M insurance.
I do not know how these numbers result (and what currency it is - ruble ?)   
quote:
"1.65 billion rubles + 376.8 billion for Fregat + 1.25 billion"
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/meteor-m2-1.html
Oh...I'm blind. It says there: rubles
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/05/2017 02:29 pm
I think also Fregat costs are wrong.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15064.msg1003556#msg1003556
Here are called 366.912.000 ruble for the "Fregat" for "Rezonans 1" satellite. (which was used)

Used Fregat was planned for Luna-Glob.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15064.msg1643164#msg1643164
that would be 122-01
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Liss on 12/12/2017 06:07 am
Roscosmos has reported the results of technical investigation of the Fregat failure: https://www.roscosmos.ru/24451/
An algorithmic error in Fregat control system program was found which had never revealed itself between 2000 and 2017 in launches from other sites.
Now the second investigation is ongoing to find why it was not found in simulations before the launch.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 12/12/2017 09:40 am
Roscosmos has reported the results of technical investigation of the Fregat failure: https://www.roscosmos.ru/24451/ (https://www.roscosmos.ru/24451/)
An algorithmic error in Fregat control system program was found which had never revealed itself between 2000 and 2017 in launches from other sites.
Now the second investigation is ongoing to find why it was not found in simulations before the launch.


Tentative translation of this Commission report (with Google help ;) )

ROSKOSMOS. CONCLUSIONS OF THE FAILURE COMMISSION
12/12/2017 09:05
The failure commission of Roskosmos under the leadership of Oleg Skorobogatov, deputy general director of CNIIIMash, who studied the reasons for the failure of launching on November 28, 2017 from Vostochny the launch vehicle Soyuz-2.1b rocket with the Fregat upper stage, the Meteor-M spacecraft and the associated payload, completed its work.
 
After reviewing the materials and analyzing the telemetry information, the Commission specialists came to the conclusion that the unpredictable situation was caused by the unpredictable behavior of the Fregat after its separation from the carrier rocket. This revealed a hidden problem in the algorithm, which had not manifested during decades of successful launches of the Soyuz-Fregat bundle.
 
The Soyuz-2.1b carrier rocket worked out regularly, there were no errors in the mission of the rocket and the upper space. The upper stage and payload assembly was put into the calculated point.
 
After separating the upper stage from the carrier rocket, the control system of the upper stage started to issue control action to turn the orbital unit to the desired angular position - the process of spatial orientation of the upper stage began. During this period means of telemetry detected a non-standard angular position of Fregat, which left the calculated trajectory after firing of the propulsion engines.
 
Fregat is a reliable universal unit, which 61 times successfully injected the payload from three cosmodromes (Baïkonur, Plesetsk, Kourou - French Guiana) and delivered more than 200 space vehicles to target orbits. The ballistic trajectory of the launch from the Vostochny cosmodrome passed the necessary inspection and was calculated in strict accordance with the regulations existing in the domestic rocket and space industry.
 
At the same time, there was a combination of the parameters of the launch pad of the cosmodrome, the azimuths of the launch vehicle and the upper stage, which had not been met before. Accordingly, it was not detected during ballistic trajectories ground tests conducted in accordance with current techniques.
 
Having carried out a comprehensive analysis, the members of the commission believe that the manifestation of this incorrectness of the algorithm might not have occurred when launching from Vostochny the same payload with the same upper stage, on the same carrier rocket. Launch would have passed normally, for example, in the summer, or in the event that the areas of fall of the separated parts of the launch vehicle lay apart from the selected ones.
 
For an immediate correction of the situation, the algorithm of the spatial orientation control system of the Fregat upper stage and existing regulations will be corrected, and instructions have already been given to develop new modern integrated methods for simulating and controlling the flight characteristics of launch vehicles.
 
A separate commission will thoroughly analyze organizational issues and prepare proposals for assessing the responsibility of officials for accepting or not taking decisions that have affected the completeness of pre-launch training for the mission.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Arch Admiral on 12/16/2017 09:30 pm
"Having carried out a comprehensive analysis, the members of the commission believe that the manifestation of this incorrectness of the algorithm might not have occurred when launching from Vostochny the same payload with the same upper stage, on the same carrier rocket. Launch would have passed normally, for example, in the summer, or in the event that the areas of fall of the separated parts of the launch vehicle lay apart from the selected ones."

Is this turgid paragraph intended to mean that a launch to some other orbital inclinations would not have triggered the guidance error? What relevance does the season have?
 
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Alter Sachse on 12/19/2017 01:50 pm
Fragments of the Soyuz were recovered

https://www.ampravda.ru/2017/12/15/079045.html

Picture 125 shows parts of Block "V"
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/27/2017 03:36 pm
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24518/ (https://www.roscosmos.ru/24518/)

Google translate:

Quote
ROSKOSMOS. THE RESULTS OF THE WORK OF THE COMMISSION ON ASSESSMENT OF THE ACTIVITIES OF OFFICERS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PREPARATION AND STARTING OF "METEOR-M" CAS No.2-1
12/27/2012 18:52

In accordance with the findings of the emergency commission on the launch of the November 28, 2017 launch from the EAST spaceflight "Meteor-M" cosmodrome No. 2-1 and the associated load, the cause of the emergency is the imperfection of the software algorithms of the control system of the Republic of Belarus "Fregat". The Emergency Commission noted that calculations of ballistic trajectories were conducted without deviation from the procedure regulated by the current regulatory documents. Since the order of ballistic calculations and the order of their verification did not provide for the use of separate parameters of the angular motion, the incorrectness of the algorithm of the control system of the Republic of Belarus "Fregat" was not found.

Based on the findings of the emergency commission on the causes of the contingency situation, the Commission for Evaluating the Activities of Officials Responsible for the Preparation and Launch of Meteor-M Spacecraft No. 2-1 from the EASTERN Space Center on November 28, 2017, analyzed the preparations for launch and compliance of the actions of the leaders their official duties.

The Commission noted that the development organizations did not pay sufficient attention to an analysis of the possible causes and consequences of potential inconsistencies that are related to the specifics of the launch of the Fregat carrier in the Soyuz carrier rocket from the EASTERN space center and the development of possible measures to prevent their manifestation. Thus, the requirements of normative documents regarding the analysis of possible failures and the criticality of their consequences were not met to the proper degree.

In addition, the officials of the State Corporation "ROSKOSMOS" and the main development companies responsible for the creation of the space complex and its components did not take comprehensive measures to ensure proper control and coordination of work.

All this in aggregate contributed to the fact that the factors, the combination of which led to an abnormal completion of the mission, remained undetected in preparation for launch.
For improper performance by the leaders of the duties assigned to them, the Commission recommended that disciplinary sanctions be imposed on them in the form of reprimands.
The instructions for reprimanding were issued to: Andrey MAZURIN, Executive Director of Roscosmos for the Removal and Operation of Ground-Based Space Infrastructure, Victor Chaporgin, Director of the Quality and Reliability Department of Roscosmos, Oleg Gorshkov, Director General of TsNIIMash, Alexander KIRILIN, Director General of Progress, To the Director General of FSUE "NPO im. Lavochkin "Sergey LEMESHEVSKY, General Director of FSUE" NPCAP im. Pilyugin "Yefim MEZHIRITSKOM and Director General of VNIIEM Corporation Leonid MACRIDENKO.

The commission also defined systemic measures and organizational measures, the implementation of which is aimed at preventing future emergencies for identified reasons.
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: input~2 on 12/29/2017 07:01 pm
Quote
Russia says satellite launch failure due to programming error
December 27, 2017 /  7:11 PM
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday the failed launch of a 2.6 billion-rouble ($44.95 million) satellite last month was due to an embarrassing programming error.
Speaking to Rossiya 24 state TV channel, Rogozin said the failure had been caused by human error. 
The rocket carrying the satellites had been programmed with the wrong coordinates, he said, saying it had been given bearings for take-off from a different cosmodrome - Baikonur - which Moscow leases from Kazakhstan.
“The rocket was really programmed as if it was taking off from Baikonur,” said Rogozin. “They didn’t get the coordinates right.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-launch-russia-mistake/russia-says-satellite-launch-failure-due-to-programming-error-idUSKBN1EL1G2
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: Stan Black on 02/01/2020 08:08 am
A little bit more on the misalignment issue with Fregat. Somebody translate, please?
Quote
- на момент отделения ОБ от РН в канале вращения СУ РБ «Фрегат» зафиксировано нерасчетное угловое рассогласование – 363 градуса, которое из-за технических возможностей не могло быть отработано СУ РБ до первого включения МДУ РБ. В результате нештатной ориентации РБ «Фрегат» на 675 с от КП промежуточная рамка ГСП СУ РБ дошла до упора и РБ «Фрегат» потерял ориентацию базовой системы отсчета. Дальнейшее движение РБ относительно центра масс было хаотичным при стабильной величине тяги МДУ РБ;
https://sudact.ru/arbitral/doc/RkavUnq3wyH4/
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: owais.usmani on 02/01/2020 05:00 pm
A little bit more on the misalignment issue with Fregat. Somebody translate, please?
Quote
- на момент отделения ОБ от РН в канале вращения СУ РБ «Фрегат» зафиксировано нерасчетное угловое рассогласование – 363 градуса, которое из-за технических возможностей не могло быть отработано СУ РБ до первого включения МДУ РБ. В результате нештатной ориентации РБ «Фрегат» на 675 с от КП промежуточная рамка ГСП СУ РБ дошла до упора и РБ «Фрегат» потерял ориентацию базовой системы отсчета. Дальнейшее движение РБ относительно центра масс было хаотичным при стабильной величине тяги МДУ РБ;
https://sudact.ru/arbitral/doc/RkavUnq3wyH4/

Using Google Translate:

Quote
- at the time of separation of the OB from the LV in the rotation channel of the control system of the RB “Fregat” there was an off-design angular mismatch of 363 degrees, which, due to technical capabilities, could not be worked out by the control system of the RB before the first inclusion of the MRL RB. As a result of the abnormal orientation of the Fregat RB for 675 s from the gearbox, the intermediate frame of the GSP SU RB came to the stop and the Fregat RB lost the orientation of the base reference system. Further movement of the RB relative to the center of mass was chaotic with a stable thrust of the MDL RB;
Title: Re: FAILURE: Soyuz-2.1b/Fregat-M – Meteor-M 2-1 et al. – Vostochny - Nov 28, 2017
Post by: alexs on 02/01/2020 05:23 pm
A little bit more on the misalignment issue with Fregat. Somebody translate, please?

Quote
at the time of payload separation, an unexpected roll error of 363 degrees was noted by the control system of the Fregat kick stage, which could not be corrected before the first startup of the main engine due to technical limitations of the RCS. Because of abnormal attitude of the Fregat kick stage, 675 seconds into the flight intermediate frame of the INS gyro reached limit stop, and Fregat lost track of its spacial orientation. Further movement of the kick stage around its center of mass was chaotic, despite stable thrust from the main engine.

Sounds like it tried to roll one turn plus 3 degrees instead of just 3 degrees.