Author Topic: Apollo Lunar Module  (Read 4698 times)

Offline Torten

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Apollo Lunar Module
« on: 05/05/2019 01:48 pm »
Hi
I've recently been doing a lot of reading on the Apollo Lunar Module, and all the unfortunately undeveloped Apollo Lunar Module variants, such as the LM Taxi, LM Shelter and the LM Truck. I know that the orginal Lunar module upgraded, could support two men on the surface for three days. I'm curious - could this have been extended to five or six days, without making major changes to the LM, thus allowing even more time on the surface with just one Saturn V launch (I know the Saturn V was at the very limit payload wise but I suppose solid boosters could be added, or the J2S could be fitted to the S-1VB) I presume the biggest issue would be trying to extend the oxygen supply, unless the LM could be retrofitted with an airlock, and ensuring that the vehicle could carry any extra payload to the surface, as I presume it would be quite hard to add extra fuel tanks to the Descent Stage.

Also looking at the plans for the Apollo LM Shelter, and Taxi, which would have been the most logical developments to carry out, if there had been demand to carry on with the Lunar flights, particularly if the Soviets had made a landing, I was wondering how heavy the development costs would be, given that most of the hardware already existed, and the main elements requiring development would be the need to assure that the taxi could linger on the surface like it did on the Lunar flight, creating a autotomous descent program for the Lunar Module, and increasing the endurance, potenially by adding a airlock or increasing the amount of oxygen carried.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2019 02:45 pm »
If memory serves, many of Grumman's sketches of the LM variants were of versions that were one-way. So that savings of not landing with the weight of ascent fuel or an engine could very well extend surface time. In fact, the LM Shelter and LM Base Module was this, each supporting two men for up to 14 days.

The J-mission LMs of Apollo 15, 16 and 17 supported two men for three days. I think the limits for a 5 day mission were primarily water and battery power, which would've made this vehicle heavier than desired.

I'm presuming you're reading this NASA document of Grumman's variations.
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/LM23_LM_Derivatives_LMD1-13.pdf

The challenge for all of this involves the financial issues with Apollo. The program was initially given a blank check in the race to the Moon. Once that goal was nearly accomplished, by 1967, NASA's budget began to shrink.

The Saturns and Apollo spacecraft were no-holds-barred vehicles concentrating on performance and safety. This made them very, very expensive, and is one reason why no plans with Apollo-derived hardware would be approved by the Nixon administration.

It's a shame that Apollo technologies were too expensive to be sustainable, as it was clear that they were quite versatile. However, the LM variants seemed a bit pushy and would require more development that would effectively make them new costly spacecraft.

Neither the LM Shelter or Base Module would provide enough time for building a larger long-term and safer shelter, in my opinion. And the cost of getting these variations of LM to the surface couldn't be an affordable act.
"Why is the logo on the side of a rocket so important?"
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Offline Proponent

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #2 on: 05/05/2019 02:53 pm »
A 1968 Bellcomm memo (1st attachment) suggests that a 7-day stay time might have been possible without upgrading the Saturn 5.

Have you had a good look at NTRS and other sites to see what you might find?

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #3 on: 05/10/2019 09:23 am »
There were consideration to equip the Saturn V with J-2S engine in S-II and S-IVB, form AS-518 on.

it had increased the payload to 55 metric tons to Moon to be adequate for advance Lunar Mission.

next the standard LM and Extended LM (3 day stay)
So far i know Grumman study to make ELM 7 day stay.

next was the Augmented LM,
with redesign decent stage with lager fuel tank and additional payload attach external
Payload would be around 2800 Lbs.
 
ALM was building block for LM taxi, LM shelter and LM truck

North American Aviation proposed to use LM decent stage and Apollo device Module
to land large Shelter on lunar surface
Rocket Science Rule

Offline Proponent

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #4 on: 05/10/2019 02:25 pm »
On the subject of evolutionary improvements of the Saturns:

Saturn IB's from SA-217;
Saturn 5's from SA-520.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #5 on: 05/10/2019 08:00 pm »
The J missions carried supplies for 3 days, plus an ALSEP and a rover.  If the ALSEP was replaced with additional supplies (e.g. for a sampling-only mission) the stay time could be extended.  However, the issue of thermal control would become a serious issue for unmodified Apollo hardware.  Pushing the mission much closer to lunar noon would have been tricky unless modifications were made. 

Offline dks13827

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #6 on: 05/11/2019 01:18 am »
Also, the suits were about at their limit regarding dust and the seals and the zippers.  So the crew would need time, workspace, and supplies to maintain the suits.

Offline Torten

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #7 on: 05/11/2019 05:49 pm »
Also, the suits were about at their limit regarding dust and the seals and the zippers.  So the crew would need time, workspace, and supplies to maintain the suits.
Another issue, which links in well with this is that the crew of Apollo 17 spent nearly 24 hours doing lunarEVA's during their mission - I suspect if you were to spent any longer on the moon you would need to consider rest periods for the astronauts - say for a five day landing, the astronauts on the surface might need to spend one of those days resting, doing repairs to the suits (As can be allowed in the confines of the LM) and dicussing what they have found on the lunar surface with the science team. The law of dimishing returns is going to really affect mission planning.

Offline topopesto

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #8 on: 05/12/2019 08:16 pm »
The LEM, with  all its studied  and never realized variation, is a great passion of mine. I had thus created the model kits of some studies trying to remain as faithful as possible to the projects.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #9 on: 05/12/2019 09:00 pm »
Great model!

What is the "rack" on top?  Possibly a radiator (though it would be exposed to the sun)?

Offline topopesto

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #10 on: 05/13/2019 08:30 pm »
Yes, they are the radiator!

I found the drawing of this LEM on the site:" Romance to reality" and I tried to reproduce it as faithfully as possible, in particular, the one that intrigued me the most was the airlock in frontal of the LEM.

Offline topopesto

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #11 on: 05/15/2019 07:41 pm »
Another version of the LEM I made is LEM SLA (SATURN LUNAR ADAPTER); always carried out following actual studies done.

Offline Fequalsma

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #12 on: 05/21/2019 02:58 am »
I was just watching “Apollo 13” again. In the movie, the LM legs are deployed.  The photos I found seem to agree.  Does anyone know why they bothered to deploy them?
F=ma

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #13 on: 05/21/2019 03:44 am »
I was just watching “Apollo 13” again. In the movie, the LM legs are deployed.  The photos I found seem to agree.  Does anyone know why they bothered to deploy them?
F=ma
I'm wondering if the normal time to deploy the legs was shortly after extraction from the third stage.  If that was the case, then they would have been deployed before the oxygen tank explosion.  It seems like the earlier they were deployed, the more time to troubleshoot the deployment if something went wrong.

Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #14 on: 05/21/2019 10:22 am »
I was just watching “Apollo 13” again. In the movie, the LM legs are deployed.  The photos I found seem to agree.  Does anyone know why they bothered to deploy them?
F=ma

The legs had to be deployed before the descent engine fired. https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/35877/why-did-the-apollo-13-crew-extend-the-lm-landing-gear

Offline topopesto

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #15 on: 05/26/2019 07:20 am »
The LEM, with  all its studied  and never realized variation, is a great passion of mine. I had thus created the model kits of some studies trying to remain as faithful as possible to the projects.
[/quote
I've always found this version of the LEM fascinating, but I never understood how they would use the airlock to reduce  the presence of the dust inside the living area. Could anyone explain it to do?

Offline catdlr

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #16 on: 09/29/2024 10:50 am »
Why Did the Apollo Landers Look So Odd?

Quote
Sep 17, 2024

The Apollo Lunar Lander, or LEM, was one of the strangest-looking spacecraft ever built, but it was designed to do a job that had never been done before. Some say that it was fake and too flimsy to withstand the rigors of space flight and get men to the moon and back again, yet it did that very job six times without fail. This is the story of why the Apollo landers looked like they did and why they became icons of the space race.

Written, researched and presented by Paul Shillito
Images and footage: Grumman Aircraft Corp, NASA


It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

Offline laszlo

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #17 on: 09/29/2024 05:43 pm »
Why Did the Apollo Landers Look So Odd?

Quote
Sep 17, 2024

The Apollo Lunar Lander, or LEM, was one of the strangest-looking spacecraft ever built, but it was designed to do a job that had never been done before. Some say that it was fake and too flimsy to withstand the rigors of space flight and get men to the moon and back again, yet it did that very job six times without fail. This is the story of why the Apollo landers looked like they did and why they became icons of the space race.

Written, researched and presented by Paul Shillito
Images and footage: Grumman Aircraft Corp, NASA

There's some of us for whom it looks perfectly normal, just the way it should look  ;)

Offline Hobbes-22

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #18 on: 09/29/2024 07:25 pm »
That video is aimed at the common argument used by moon landing deniers.

Offline eric z

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Re: Apollo Lunar Module
« Reply #19 on: 09/29/2024 07:30 pm »
 The Lunar Module performed to perfection on Apollo 9, and on Apollo 10. It saved the crew's life on Apollo 13.
A true "classic" of the Space Age! A true Spaceship.
 Growing up, I was thrilled to see all the drawings of what the Apollo Applications Program would have looked like.

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