Quote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1
Thanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.
Quote from: hoku on 06/17/2023 09:22 pmQuote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1I've probably told this story before up-thread.I'm never going to find it, but I remember back in the mid-1980s (probably around 1985-86) reading an article about Hubble that was possibly in Scientific American. The reporter visited Perkin-Elmer and was shown around by one of their top managers who showed off the big equipment they had built to construct and polish the Hubble mirror. The thing that stood out for me at the time was the manager's comment that now that they had built that equipment, it would "make us competitive for other programs." Even though I was but a wee lad, I remember thinking Ah ha! That means that P-E did not build the KH-11 mirrors! And that proved correct. Their HEXAGON mirrors were a lot smaller.
Estimated unit costs, including launch and in 1990 dollars, range from US$1.25 to US$1.75 billion (inflation adjusted $2.8 to $3.92 billion in 2022).[36]According to US Senator Kit Bond initial budget estimates for each of the two legacy KH-11 satellites ordered from Lockheed in 2005 were higher than for the latest Nimitz-class aircraft carrier (CVN-77)[21] with its projected procurement cost of $6.35 billion as of May 2005.[106] In 2011, after the launch of USA-224, DNRO Bruce Carlson announced that the procurement cost for the satellite had been $2 billion under the initial budget estimate, which would put it at about $4.4 billion (inflation adjusted $5.72 billion in 2022).[22]In April 2014, the NRO assigned a "worth more than $5 billion" to the final two legacy KH-11 satellites.[107]
Quote from: hoku on 06/17/2023 09:22 pmQuote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1Thanks, yes. Funnily enough when I saw you mention that quote before https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.560 I wongly inferred that KH-11 wouldn't have used CMGs either. I couldn't really grok the simple reality that it was apparently OK to use them on about 20 odd KENNENs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN yet one for one Hubble it was too pricey ...Some cost estimates for KENNEN:QuoteEstimated unit costs, including launch and in 1990 dollars, range from US$1.25 to US$1.75 billion (inflation adjusted $2.8 to $3.92 billion in 2022).[36]According to US Senator Kit Bond initial budget estimates for each of the two legacy KH-11 satellites ordered from Lockheed in 2005 were higher than for the latest Nimitz-class aircraft carrier (CVN-77)[21] with its projected procurement cost of $6.35 billion as of May 2005.[106] In 2011, after the launch of USA-224, DNRO Bruce Carlson announced that the procurement cost for the satellite had been $2 billion under the initial budget estimate, which would put it at about $4.4 billion (inflation adjusted $5.72 billion in 2022).[22]In April 2014, the NRO assigned a "worth more than $5 billion" to the final two legacy KH-11 satellites.[107] all from Wikipedia.
Quote from: LittleBird on 06/18/2023 05:46 amQuote from: hoku on 06/17/2023 09:22 pmQuote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1Thanks, yes. Funnily enough when I saw you mention that quote before https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.560 I wongly inferred that KH-11 wouldn't have used CMGs either. I couldn't really grok the simple reality that it was apparently OK to use them on about 20 odd KENNENs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN yet one for one Hubble it was too pricey ...Some cost estimates for KENNEN:<snip>all from Wikipedia.KH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.
Quote from: hoku on 06/17/2023 09:22 pmQuote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1Thanks, yes. Funnily enough when I saw you mention that quote before https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.560 I wongly inferred that KH-11 wouldn't have used CMGs either. I couldn't really grok the simple reality that it was apparently OK to use them on about 20 odd KENNENs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN yet one for one Hubble it was too pricey ...Some cost estimates for KENNEN:<snip>all from Wikipedia.
KH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.
Quote from: hoku on 06/18/2023 11:35 amKH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.that MMS is not the 4 satellites that NASA launched in 2015.
Quote from: Jim on 06/18/2023 06:34 pmQuote from: hoku on 06/18/2023 11:35 amKH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.that MMS is not the 4 satellites that NASA launched in 2015.Indeed, and as source is from 1999 it wouldn't be. <snip>
A few months ago, a Maxar satellite imaged the NASA/USGS Landsat 8:https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/article/satellite-sees-satellite-landsat-8-in-orbit/QuoteOn October 7, 2022, Maxar’s WorldView-3 satellite snapped this sequence of images showing Landsat 8 in orbit. The distance between the satellites ranges from between 91.4 to 129.9 km (56.8 to 80.7 miles). ... The resolution of the Landsat 8 images in this sequence varies from 4.6 to 6.5 cm (SSD stands for Space Sample Distance).At the time, news of the event was posted in the Landsat 8 tread in this forum. I thought I'd repost it in this thread because this is one of the tasks that the KH-11 KENNEN sats and their successors were designed to do. The resolution of a picture taken at this distance is certainly impressive, but I imagine that a sat from the Evolved Enhanced CRYSTAL System-series could do even better.
On October 7, 2022, Maxar’s WorldView-3 satellite snapped this sequence of images showing Landsat 8 in orbit. The distance between the satellites ranges from between 91.4 to 129.9 km (56.8 to 80.7 miles). ... The resolution of the Landsat 8 images in this sequence varies from 4.6 to 6.5 cm (SSD stands for Space Sample Distance).
Quote from: LittleBird on 06/18/2023 05:46 amQuote from: hoku on 06/17/2023 09:22 pmQuote from: LittleBird on 06/11/2023 11:47 amThanks for th up Hoku. I remember Jim saying that HEXAGON didn't use CMGs, and I thought that I'd read in an NRO source that GAMBIT didn't but I'm now wondering if that's true, especially for the later G3 etc.There is also an interesting comment from Bob O'Dell's oral history interview on HST:O'Dell:(...) We had things that we generally didn't expect, like this business about 2.4 meters being just about the largest size you could package with a low moment of inertia, a point I made in the review panel. That was really the driver, on 2.4 meters. That's what kept the costs down. That was the big break on the costs. The uncertainty of cost in making 3 meter optics was great, but very hard to define, whereas the certainty of the difference in cost between reaction wheels and control moment gyros was clear. That was black and white.https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/4802-1Thanks, yes. Funnily enough when I saw you mention that quote before https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.560 I wongly inferred that KH-11 wouldn't have used CMGs either. I couldn't really grok the simple reality that it was apparently OK to use them on about 20 odd KENNENs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN yet one for one Hubble it was too pricey ...Some cost estimates for KENNEN:QuoteEstimated unit costs, including launch and in 1990 dollars, range from US$1.25 to US$1.75 billion (inflation adjusted $2.8 to $3.92 billion in 2022).[36]According to US Senator Kit Bond initial budget estimates for each of the two legacy KH-11 satellites ordered from Lockheed in 2005 were higher than for the latest Nimitz-class aircraft carrier (CVN-77)[21] with its projected procurement cost of $6.35 billion as of May 2005.[106] In 2011, after the launch of USA-224, DNRO Bruce Carlson announced that the procurement cost for the satellite had been $2 billion under the initial budget estimate, which would put it at about $4.4 billion (inflation adjusted $5.72 billion in 2022).[22]In April 2014, the NRO assigned a "worth more than $5 billion" to the final two legacy KH-11 satellites.[107] all from Wikipedia.KH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.
Indeed, and as source is from 1999 it wouldn't be. Is it the Manned Maneuvering System, which I've seen in a s/c control textbook described as having small CMGs ? [Edit 2:No it isn't ... as that's called the Manned Maneuvering Unit.]
Quote from: LittleBird on 06/18/2023 06:40 pmQuote from: Jim on 06/18/2023 06:34 pmQuote from: hoku on 06/18/2023 11:35 amKH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.that MMS is not the 4 satellites that NASA launched in 2015.Indeed, and as source is from 1999 it wouldn't be. <snip>So in fact it's probably TRW referring to their own 3-axis stabilised GEO stage/spacecraft, the MultiMission Support stage, referred to in 1968 by Dirks in his Blue Book ... which I speculated https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37169.msg2294863#msg2294863 was the basis for RHYOLITE ? Nice.
Quote from: LittleBird on 06/19/2023 06:26 amQuote from: LittleBird on 06/18/2023 06:40 pmQuote from: Jim on 06/18/2023 06:34 pmQuote from: hoku on 06/18/2023 11:35 amKH-11 has/had different pointing and tracking constraints than HST. According to the attached table from the 1999 edition of TRW's "Space Data", CMGs are the preferred choice for "high" maneuvering rates (like frequent acquisition of new ground targets along the orbital track). HST on the other hand, is optimised for long exposures, and slow slew rates.that MMS is not the 4 satellites that NASA launched in 2015.Indeed, and as source is from 1999 it wouldn't be. <snip>So in fact it's probably TRW referring to their own 3-axis stabilised GEO stage/spacecraft, the MultiMission Support stage, referred to in 1968 by Dirks in his Blue Book ... which I speculated https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37169.msg2294863#msg2294863 was the basis for RHYOLITE ? Nice. Exactly
I wonder how much machine learn is used in the image pipeline from the KH-11, I’d bet that actual humans now only sit right at the end of the pipeline and that much of the initial sorting and interpretation of images is done by machine learning. You probably only need the same number of photo analysis as in the past even though something like the KH-11 must produce vastly more data.
I'd be more interested in how far back assistive pattern matching techniques were used. Prior to computerisation, optical Fourier correlation allowed identification and location of a pattern within an image to be performed entirely within the optical domain - effectively a laser source plus a series of mirrors/lenses and a fourier transformed filter of the pattern you wished to search for would allow taking a large strip of film, and projecting through it via the correlator to produce a projected image where intensity correlates to the closeness of match to the desired pattern. e.g. take a fourier transform of a SAM site footprint, run a Hexagon film strip through the system, and watch for the bright spots to appear and mark them for manual inspection (or even just count the spots to rapidly guesstimate sites per few thousand square km). Attached is a 70's era paper on modifying that sort of setup for scale and rotation invariance, so tools of the era were up to this task. I can't recall this being mentioned in any of the released NRO documentation, but that often seems sparse or non-existent when it comes to what happened to the film after recovery.
Quote from: edzieba on 07/04/2023 02:38 pmI'd be more interested in how far back assistive pattern matching techniques were used. Prior to computerisation, optical Fourier correlation allowed identification and location of a pattern within an image to be performed entirely within the optical domain - effectively a laser source plus a series of mirrors/lenses and a fourier transformed filter of the pattern you wished to search for would allow taking a large strip of film, and projecting through it via the correlator to produce a projected image where intensity correlates to the closeness of match to the desired pattern. e.g. take a fourier transform of a SAM site footprint, run a Hexagon film strip through the system, and watch for the bright spots to appear and mark them for manual inspection (or even just count the spots to rapidly guesstimate sites per few thousand square km). Attached is a 70's era paper on modifying that sort of setup for scale and rotation invariance, so tools of the era were up to this task. I can't recall this being mentioned in any of the released NRO documentation, but that often seems sparse or non-existent when it comes to what happened to the film after recovery.Agreed, fascinating topic to me as well.Hoku posted about an optical correlator a while ago, but I can't remember whether in SAR or imaging context. I'll dig it out.
https://thespacereview.com/article/4614/1 In both cases, American intelligence agencies were caught flatfooted. American reconnaissance satellites only returned images of the events on the ground long after they were over. These two incidents prompted American intelligence officials to consider development of a new “crisis reconnaissance” capability in the late 1960s. A leading candidate was a satellite proposal named SPIN SCAN, which would have used a mature, but limited technology to return images to the ground. SPIN SCAN and several other satellite proposals of the late 1960s were concurrent, competitive, and complementary to the slow-burning American effort to develop a near-real-time reconnaissance satellite capability that culminated in the 1971 decision to build the KH-11 KENNEN reconnaissance satellite. SPIN SCAN came closer to development than any of the other crisis reconnaissance satellites evaluated during this period. But the two significant intelligence failures of the late 1960s did not lead to its approval. SPIN SCAN’s existence, and just how close it came to becoming reality, have never been public before now.
Dr Cline thinks the classification level of the photographs is too high. He would like an unclassified photo he could take to the UN for example.