Author Topic: KH-11 KENNEN  (Read 416699 times)

Offline hoku

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1080 on: 12/29/2024 10:27 am »

Two things are interesting here imho, one relevant to this thread, and the other to the mythology of the Shuttle (threads here on Hersch book "Dark Star" and  the ongoing podcast "16 Sunsets"). The latter topic, on who  by late '71, actually wanted the largest possible payload bay is thus one to take elsewhere, but the former, of why Packard and/or Fletcher knew that 60 feet was no longer essential, is relevant here.

It seems certain to me that Packard knew about the KH-11 go ahead,  as he was a party to discussions and a member of ExCom iirc, and it seems quite likely that Fletcher might also know something, as he had had very high clearances in the late 60s (e.g. the Fletcher committee on RHYOLITE options). Perhaps they both already knew that the "Stubby Hubble" was more like the length (~45 feet?) that is now ascribed to it, see e.g. ArchiPeppe's lovely pictures below, from Blackstar's TSR articles  ?


I'll toss in a bit of a non-sequitur here that there was a 1973 study of alternative HEXAGONs that also looked at redesigning it for shuttle. That's 2 years too late, but there was certainly the possibility that NRO could have come up with a shorter version of HEXAGON than 60 feet.

Now you have to set the dimensions somewhere, and it seems pretty clear by now, even if we don't have a letter or memo that explicitly states it, that the DoD picked the longest payload they had which in 1971 was brand spanking new, and they said "it has to be able to carry this." Had they told NASA something less than 60 feet was acceptable, they were going to have to redesign HEXAGON to fit in the shuttle, and they were not about to let NASA dictate that to them.

I wish I knew the dimensions for the KH-11. I don't know if I know anybody who would tell me. It is kinda silly that the first launch was 48 years ago and we still don't know the basics about the vehicle.
My understanding is that by late 1971 the options for payload bay dimensions had been narrowed down to either 15x60 ft or 14x45 ft. 15x60 ft was the (preferred) goal, and 14x45 ft was the slightly cheaper fall-back option in case of budget troubles. Mass lifting capacity to polar orbit might have been as important as payload bay size. KH-11's longevity depends on consumables for orbital maintenance.

The "optimized for STS use" Hexagon with its 6 RVs and a length of 56'4" might have been a 1973(?) afterthought.
« Last Edit: 12/29/2024 10:44 am by hoku »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1081 on: 12/29/2024 02:17 pm »
The "optimized for STS use" Hexagon with its 6 RVs and a length of 56'4" might have been a 1973(?) afterthought.

I am sure it was. I think that's a cool and interesting design, and I would love to know what people in the NRO thought about it. If it was ever considered as an option. I suspect it was not, because it would have been an expensive new development. The other issue is that HEXAGON may have been too much spacecraft already. It may have produced more imagery than was necessary--or at least they knew it was going to be doing that. After all they reduced the number of flights per year. Part of that was probably in response to KH-11, but there are documents indicating that by the late 1970s, HEXAGON was providing more search imagery than required.

Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1082 on: 12/31/2024 01:46 pm »

Two things are interesting here imho, one relevant to this thread, and the other to the mythology of the Shuttle (threads here on Hersch book "Dark Star" and  the ongoing podcast "16 Sunsets"). The latter topic, on who  by late '71, actually wanted the largest possible payload bay is thus one to take elsewhere, but the former, of why Packard and/or Fletcher knew that 60 feet was no longer essential, is relevant here.

It seems certain to me that Packard knew about the KH-11 go ahead,  as he was a party to discussions and a member of ExCom iirc, and it seems quite likely that Fletcher might also know something, as he had had very high clearances in the late 60s (e.g. the Fletcher committee on RHYOLITE options). Perhaps they both already knew that the "Stubby Hubble" was more like the length (~45 feet?) that is now ascribed to it, see e.g. ArchiPeppe's lovely pictures below, from Blackstar's TSR articles  ?


I'll toss in a bit of a non-sequitur here that there was a 1973 study of alternative HEXAGONs that also looked at redesigning it for shuttle. That's 2 years too late, but there was certainly the possibility that NRO could have come up with a shorter version of HEXAGON than 60 feet.

Now you have to set the dimensions somewhere, and it seems pretty clear by now, even if we don't have a letter or memo that explicitly states it, that the DoD picked the longest payload they had which in 1971 was brand spanking new, and they said "it has to be able to carry this." Had they told NASA something less than 60 feet was acceptable, they were going to have to redesign HEXAGON to fit in the shuttle, and they were not about to let NASA dictate that to them.

I wish I knew the dimensions for the KH-11. I don't know if I know anybody who would tell me. It is kinda silly that the first launch was 48 years ago and we still don't know the basics about the vehicle.
My understanding is that by late 1971 the options for payload bay dimensions had been narrowed down to either 15x60 ft or 14x45 ft. 15x60 ft was the (preferred) goal, and 14x45 ft was the slightly cheaper fall-back option in case of budget troubles. Mass lifting capacity to polar orbit might have been as important as payload bay size. KH-11's longevity depends on consumables for orbital maintenance.

The "optimized for STS use" Hexagon with its 6 RVs and a length of 56'4" might have been a 1973(?) afterthought.

Thanks Hoku, had completely forgotten that Vance Mitchell's history of NASA-NRO relations "Sharing Space" https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/foia/declass/ForAll/012422/F-2019-00002_C05116216.pdf  had (of course) mentioned the Shuttle decision. The section you show is interesting for a couple of reasons.

One is that Mitchell presents Fletcher as being essentially a civilian academic. This is a tad disingenuous, see e.g. Dale Myers' obituary (he died in '91) for him at the National Academies https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/2231/chapter/9#35 which describes inter alia his early work on systems analysis and ICBMs at Hughes & Ramo-Wooldridge, his co-founding of a company, and his patents in guidance and sonar. Butterworth's more recently declassified chapters of a SIGINT history also refer quite clearly to his chairmanship of a panel on RHYOLITE in the late 60s which was crucial in (de)scoping it somewhat. So he probably "had the tickets" (as Hans Mark would say) to discuss at least some of what the NRO actually wanted.

More importantly it seems that it wasn't so much that the choice had narrowed down by late '71 to two lengths of payload bay, it was more that it was opened up (and in fact OMB were lobbying for a third, 30ft, bay very late in the day indeed).

 The best source on all this seems to be John Logsdon's exceptionally thorough book "After Apollo?", which I have been driven to revisit after the enjoyable, but rather less than impartial, accounts in Hersch's book and the 16 Sunsets podcast.

I haven't reread it all properly yet, and it's hard to summarise   quickly- I should really take the time to do it properly somewhere if it hasn't already been done.

With that caveat, as far as I can see Losdon says that as late as May 71, when asked by Dale Myers about a shorter payload bay (12ftx40) Grant Hansen was negative, and in June '71 Robert Seamans was also clear that the DoD really wanted a 60ft bay [pp 192-193]. The 60x15ft bay had originally been specified in Spring 1969 via a requirement for a 10 000 cu ft volume in meetings between NASA and DoD [page 163] (more than 3 times bigger than NASA's plan at that stage).

Meanwhile, in the black world, HEXAGON flew for the first time on June 15th 1971  (see Blackstar's history of this era and the KH-11 decision process at https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3795/1 )

It is after the (Al) Flax committee [pp. 202-204] which met for the first time in August '71 that senior NASA decision makers, particularly Low and Fletcher, start to talk more seriously about shorter payload bays as one of the ways to get an affordable Shuttle. Low distinguished [p.206] between a "mini-shuttle" with a 15x40 ft payload bay "that could carry research and application modules and eventually space station modules" and a "space glider" with a 12x40ft bay. This seems to reinforce Fletcher's comment in his memo about the "Fletcher-Packard lunch" of October 19th that the 15 ft diameter was more a NASA than DoD aspiration.

It is only as late as 23rd September 1971 that KENNEN got its final go-ahead, when in "a Top Secret classified memo from Kissinger to Laird, Helms, OMB director George Shultz, Eugene David, and PFIAB chairman Admiral George Anderson, Kissinger informed them that Nixon had “decided that the development of the Electro-Optical Imaging (EOI) system should be undertaken under a realistic funding program with a view towards achieving an operational capability in 1976"." (Blackstar, ibid.)

When Logsdon goes on to discuss the October '71 Fletcher-Packard lunch [p. 224-226] he notes (see grab I posted above) that Packard's indications of newfound DoD flexibility were not as welcome in NASA as one might think they would be. He interprets this as being evidence that NASA felt the DoD were still not committed to the Shuttle. One might also speculate that NRO in particular might in fact be more than happy to have another reason  to keep the Titan IIID.

What is clear from his detailed account of the "last laps" of the process leading up to Nixon's final decision in early '72 is that by that point the largest possible cargo bay was actually more important to NASA than to anyone else.
« Last Edit: 12/31/2024 02:10 pm by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1083 on: 01/01/2025 04:09 pm »
I thought I might have created a crisis reconnaissance thread here, but cannot find it, so I am posting here instead.

This is from the mid-1960s and was a proposal to launch a reconnaissance satellite out of the back of a C-130. I'll have to look up the dates and more info, but will probably do an article about this at some point. There were several proposals like this in the mid-1960s, including the B-58 "Town Hall" proposal and a proposal to launch from an A-12 OXCART (earlier SR-71 Blackbird). I do not have a good handle on all of these. I think they may have been unsolicited proposals rather than CIA asking for proposals. I also think that they may have stressed the covert launch aspect, rather than crisis-reconnaissance.

The funny thing behind this C-130 proposal is that I saw it when it was originally declassified, around 2003 or so. Then I could not find it. But I asked people to let me know if they found it, and only a short 21 years later somebody did.

Just eyeballing this, that rocket seems way too small to put something in orbit. But I'll have to look at the document and see what they claimed.

Offline hpras

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1084 on: 01/01/2025 06:13 pm »
Sort of looks like something that could do a quick flyover of an area and be caught on the other side a few minutes later, like Cuba.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1085 on: 01/01/2025 07:22 pm »
I have not read the documentation yet, but I don't think that's it. That would essentially be tactical reconnaissance, and that could be done by either an A-12 OXCART and later by an SR-71. I think this was for strategic reconnaissance, longer range, Soviet targets.

It really is a small rocket to fit in a C-130. That looks like the kind of thing that could be wing-mounted. So I am puzzled by it.

This is once again a demonstration of the limitations of air-launch: the rocket cannot be that big, and if it maximizes out the capability of the airplane carrying it, there is no room for growth with the launch vehicle.





Update: Document dates from October 1965. Proposal was called ALIAS. Name of author(s) and contractor are deleted. Orbital vehicle. Goal was 1-inch resolution, which is nuts. I have no idea how they thought that was feasible. Electro-optical readout, which was also very primitive in 1965. I'll have to look at it in detail, but this proposal is really out of scope compared to all the others I've seen which require a much larger rocket, optical system, and lower resolution.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2025 01:27 am by Blackstar »

Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1086 on: 01/02/2025 11:47 am »
I have not read the documentation yet, but I don't think that's it. That would essentially be tactical reconnaissance, and that could be done by either an A-12 OXCART and later by an SR-71. I think this was for strategic reconnaissance, longer range, Soviet targets.

It really is a small rocket to fit in a C-130. That looks like the kind of thing that could be wing-mounted. So I am puzzled by it.

This is once again a demonstration of the limitations of air-launch: the rocket cannot be that big, and if it maximizes out the capability of the airplane carrying it, there is no room for growth with the launch vehicle.




Update: Document dates from October 1965. Proposal was called ALIAS. Name of author(s) and contractor are deleted. Orbital vehicle. Goal was 1-inch resolution, which is nuts. I have no idea how they thought that was feasible. Electro-optical readout, which was also very primitive in 1965. I'll have to look at it in detail, but this proposal is really out of scope compared to all the others I've seen which require a much larger rocket, optical system, and lower resolution.

Clearly alien technology ;-);-) If one ever doubted the need for outfits like the JASONs this would confirm it.  The fact that the Fried limit wasn't published until the following year doesn't really excuse it. [Edit: Deleted in the light of Blackstar's belated realisation-and hpras' comment-that this is not a satellite. That'll (hopefully) teach me not to pile on without reading the docs ...]

That said, can you see what the  size of the optics actually is ? There are folk here who could "do the math".

Trying to remind myself what a commercial small sat can actually do these days I found a nice list of available imagery including resolutions here: https://www.satimagingcorp.com/satellite-sensors/
« Last Edit: 01/03/2025 09:49 am by LittleBird »

Offline StraumliBlight

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1087 on: 01/02/2025 12:15 pm »
Trying to remind myself what a commercial small sat can actually do these days I found a nice list of available imagery including resolutions here: https://www.satimagingcorp.com/satellite-sensors/

That list includes future availability; the 10cm imagery satellite (Clarity 1) is launching on Transporter-13 in March.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1088 on: 01/02/2025 12:49 pm »
I have not read the documentation yet, but I don't think that's it. That would essentially be tactical reconnaissance, and that could be done by either an A-12 OXCART and later by an SR-71. I think this was for strategic reconnaissance, longer range, Soviet targets.

It really is a small rocket to fit in a C-130. That looks like the kind of thing that could be wing-mounted. So I am puzzled by it.

Clearly alien technology ;-);-) If one ever doubted the need for outfits like the JASONs this would confirm it.  The fact that the Fried limit wasn't published until the following year doesn't really excuse it.

That said, can you see what the  size of the optics actually is ? There are folk here who could "do the math".



I was not reading carefully enough (well, I was not really reading it, I was glancing at it while doing something else)--it was not a proposal for a reconnaissance satellite, but for a suborbital satellite inspection vehicle. It would fly past a satellite at high velocity and take pictures. That's why the resolution goal was so high. Document attached. I'll have to read it at some point. I don't know if we have a satellite inspection thread in here.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2025 12:53 pm by Blackstar »

Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1089 on: 01/02/2025 02:53 pm »
Trying to remind myself what a commercial small sat can actually do these days I found a nice list of available imagery including resolutions here: https://www.satimagingcorp.com/satellite-sensors/

That list includes future availability; the 10cm imagery satellite (Clarity 1) is launching on Transporter-13 in March.

Indeed-I won't go shopping 'til April then ;-).

Read an interesting interview with the founders of Albedo where they invoked Trump's tweet of some KENNEN-type imagery as one "inspiration" for their company. If I can dig it out I'll post. [Edit: Turns out I'd seen it in a paywalled New York Times piece https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/science/satellites-albedo-privacy.html   but it's a point the founders have made in many interviews e.g.  https://breakingdefense.com/2023/04/albedo-catches-space-force-eyes-with-ultra-high-fidelity-imagery-from-very-low-satellites/  ]
« Last Edit: 01/02/2025 03:24 pm by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1090 on: 01/03/2025 02:37 pm »
Wondering if my kneejerk scepticism about a vertical upward launch option was justified-after all it works for ejector seats and Polaris submarines. However it does raise a serious q in my mind-has _anyone_, ever, launched a suborbital rocket  vertically upwards from _inside_ a plane ? I feel I should add the word "successfully", but I'd be curious even if it was attempted. I'm not talking about horizontal launches, launches from F-15s in a climb, rockoons, ejector seats, etc etc.

Clearly it wasn't the favoured option in this study ...

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1091 on: 01/03/2025 09:25 pm »

Skimming more of the document my first reaction is "somebody has to ask hazegrayart to do this one, asap" ...

I still haven't cracked open the document (again, my job gets in the way of my hobby), but it looks like the concept was to have the launching aircraft also recover the payload. Okay, sure... (said sarcastically)

I previously wrote about a satellite inspection proposal here:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3219/1

It was not an easy mission, especially if you were not using a co-orbital system. Co-orbital had the problem of looking a lot like an ASAT. The Program 437AP satellite inspector is the only one we know about that was actually developed by the USAF. I have been thinking recently that NRO probably has a collection of documents about that, because it used their hardware. But I bet that they would not release anything related to the subject.

Lots of technological limitations and dead-ends for this mission in the 1960s. Satellite observation became possible with the GAMBIT-3, and then with the KH-11 KENNEN (bringing this thread back on-topic).


Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1092 on: 01/04/2025 12:11 pm »

Skimming more of the document my first reaction is "somebody has to ask hazegrayart to do this one, asap" ...

I still haven't cracked open the document (again, my job gets in the way of my hobby), but it looks like the concept was to have the launching aircraft also recover the payload. Okay, sure... (said sarcastically)

I previously wrote about a satellite inspection proposal here:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3219/1

It was not an easy mission, especially if you were not using a co-orbital system. Co-orbital had the problem of looking a lot like an ASAT. The Program 437AP satellite inspector is the only one we know about that was actually developed by the USAF. I have been thinking recently that NRO probably has a collection of documents about that, because it used their hardware. But I bet that they would not release anything related to the subject.

Lots of technological limitations and dead-ends for this mission in the 1960s. Satellite observation became possible with the GAMBIT-3, and then with the KH-11 KENNEN (bringing this thread back on-topic).

It was interesting to see that the inspection proposal was in the CIA reading room, not NRO's, though it says on cover page that it had passed NRO review. One wonders if it was a DDR&E/Program B proposal to NRO, or an in-house venture.   I'll start a thread for 1960s ASAT/SAINT-type mission ideas, unless anyone knows of a suitable one.

Interesting to wonder how close an approach would have been deemed threatening-but certainly makes sense that this risk would have been a motivating reason for developing sat squared.

Meanwhile the pointing requirement between two moving objects in space is a reminder of how cross-cutting technology was-if you can solve the RF problem for SDS and KH-11 you are on the face of it a bit closer to solving it for visible light and a low orbiting pair of satellites.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2025 01:14 pm by LittleBird »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1093 on: 01/04/2025 01:53 pm »
It was interesting to see that the inspection proposal was in the CIA reading room, not NRO's, though it says on cover page that it had passed NRO review. One wonders if it was a DDR&E/Program B proposal to NRO, or an in-house venture.   I'll start a thread for 1960s ASAT/SAINT-type mission ideas, unless anyone knows of a suitable one.

Interesting to wonder how close an approach would have been deemed threatening-but certainly makes sense that this risk would have been a motivating reason for developing sat squared.

Meanwhile the pointing requirement between two moving objects in space is a reminder of how cross-cutting technology was-if you can solve the RF problem for SDS and KH-11 you are on the face of it a bit closer to solving it for visible light and a low orbiting pair of satellites.

1-Yes, we need a separate thread, or the revival of an abandoned one.

2-It's not threatening if the enemy doesn't know you're doing it. A covert launch by a C-130 out in the Pacific would never be seen by Soviet radars.

3-The pointing requirement was--I was told many years ago--solved around 1972 because of concern about Soviet ASAT interceptions. USAF was working on that issue and SAFSP developed the capability to point the GAMBIT at another satellite, possibly including a Soviet co-orbital ASAT. Probably a fascinating story that will never be declassified.

Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1094 on: 01/05/2025 05:47 am »
Meanwhile the pointing requirement between two moving objects in space is a reminder of how cross-cutting technology was-if you can solve the RF problem for SDS and KH-11 you are on the face of it a bit closer to solving it for visible light and a low orbiting pair of satellites.

3-The pointing requirement was--I was told many years ago--solved around 1972 because of concern about Soviet ASAT interceptions. USAF was working on that issue and SAFSP developed the capability to point the GAMBIT at another satellite, possibly including a Soviet co-orbital ASAT. Probably a fascinating story that will never be declassified.

You've just reminded me that ambitions for sat-squared continued to be a justification for MOL, quite late in the programme iirc-i.e. I think it persisted even after most missions had been dropped ?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1095 on: 01/05/2025 11:16 am »
Meanwhile the pointing requirement between two moving objects in space is a reminder of how cross-cutting technology was-if you can solve the RF problem for SDS and KH-11 you are on the face of it a bit closer to solving it for visible light and a low orbiting pair of satellites.

3-The pointing requirement was--I was told many years ago--solved around 1972 because of concern about Soviet ASAT interceptions. USAF was working on that issue and SAFSP developed the capability to point the GAMBIT at another satellite, possibly including a Soviet co-orbital ASAT. Probably a fascinating story that will never be declassified.

You've just reminded me that ambitions for sat-squared continued to be a justification for MOL, quite late in the programme iirc-i.e. I think it persisted even after most missions had been dropped ?

Yeah, but I don't know how high that was on the requirements list. I think the primary requirement was still very high resolution imagery of the ground.

Online LittleBird

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Re: KH-11 KENNEN
« Reply #1096 on: 01/06/2025 11:47 am »
Meanwhile the pointing requirement between two moving objects in space is a reminder of how cross-cutting technology was-if you can solve the RF problem for SDS and KH-11 you are on the face of it a bit closer to solving it for visible light and a low orbiting pair of satellites.

3-The pointing requirement was--I was told many years ago--solved around 1972 because of concern about Soviet ASAT interceptions. USAF was working on that issue and SAFSP developed the capability to point the GAMBIT at another satellite, possibly including a Soviet co-orbital ASAT. Probably a fascinating story that will never be declassified.

You've just reminded me that ambitions for sat-squared continued to be a justification for MOL, quite late in the programme iirc-i.e. I think it persisted even after most missions had been dropped ?

Yeah, but I don't know how high that was on the requirements list. I think the primary requirement was still very high resolution imagery of the ground.

Low compared to the DORIAN camera, high compared to all the other things that were dropped completely.

One might speculate that the man-in-loop control system that was seen as a key justification for DORIAN might also have been seen as something that might solve the notoriously tricky sat squared problerm ?


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