Author Topic: R-7 missile launches  (Read 31355 times)

Online jcm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #20 on: 09/12/2011 12:57 am »
Oh, and I note that in Varlomeev's  more recent article - NK Jul 2007 No 7 p 70 - he lists the Jan 1960 flights as if they were regular 8K74 flights.
That's why I am worried...

My feeling is that Varfolomeyev misinterpreted the July 1958 and January 1960 launches. No documents surfaced in 15 years since his Spaceflight publications that would confirm the statements of some special tests with dummy stages.

Having said that, I must add that many and many Timothy's revelations of 1994-1999 may be true while these are not confirmed up to now. For example, we have the 'official' Samara book now -- Samarskiye Stupeni Semyorki. It has multiple errors, it has some interesting documents -- on 11A57 for example -- but you would not see in it such things as 8K72 with Block Zh, 8K711, 11A55 and 11A56, 11A58 etc. first described by Varfolomeyev 15 years ago.


Yes, I think Timothy's articles are still a wonderful resource, but like any historian's work must be understood as  a best attempt for its time.
I agree we must now conclude that at least the Jan 1960 'dummy stage' reports were wrong and probably also the Jul 1958 one. For Jan 1960, he many have been influenced by the contemporary Western reports which listed these as upper stage tests (based I think on the TASS reports). For Jul 1958, I could perhaps believe that an "8K71/III" packet was used to test some plumbing/electronics for the upper stage even if no dummy upper stage was included - just an idea though, I have no evidence for that.
 So, no suborbital dummy upper stage launches, let's delete the dummy upper stages from our databases.

  Although I can't help feeling that Korolev SHOULD have carried out such test launches! :-)

  Jonathan
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Online jcm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #21 on: 09/12/2011 12:59 am »
example, we have the 'official' Samara book now -- Samarskiye Stupeni Semyorki.

Do you have any online links to somewhere to order this book?
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Offline Art LeBrun

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #22 on: 09/12/2011 01:23 am »
My recollection of the press reports of the January 1960 tests was that they were for a long range rocket (implying ICBM testing) coming from TASS. Always learning..........
1958 launch vehicle highlights: Vanguard TV-4 and Atlas 12B

Online jcm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #23 on: 09/12/2011 03:41 am »
My recollection of the press reports of the January 1960 tests was that they were for a long range rocket (implying ICBM testing) coming from TASS. Always learning..........

"Flight" on 29 Jan 1960, page 138
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1960/1960%20-%200138.html
quotes Tass as saying "A ballistic multi-stage rocket was launched in the Soviet Union to the Pacific on January 20... under the programme of producing a more powerful ballistic multi-stage rocket for orbiting heavy Earth satellites and for realizing spaceflight towards the planets of the solar system".  Ken Gatland's article in Flight on 14 Nov 1963 discussing what we now know to have been the R-16 long range tests in 1962-63 quotes Tass
as referring to 'dummies of penultimate stages of the carrier rockets'.
Somewhere there's a similar statement about the 1960 tests but I can't find it...
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Online jcm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #24 on: 09/12/2011 03:43 am »
Continuing discussion of statistics of R-7 based launches: there are 7 failures for which I don't know the reason - have Russian sources revealed anything now?


04.07.1973 Zenit-4M
22.02.1977 Zenit-4MK
10.08.1977 Zenit-4MKM
28.03.1981 Yantar -2K
12.06.1982 Unknown, possibly Kobalt
26.03.1986 Unknown, possibly Oblik
09.07.1988 Unknown, possibly Yantar-4KS1
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Offline Art LeBrun

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #25 on: 09/12/2011 05:09 am »
Thanks, JCM. Your sources take precedence over mine.
1958 launch vehicle highlights: Vanguard TV-4 and Atlas 12B

Online Stan Black

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #26 on: 09/12/2011 10:04 am »
 
 
Configuration
Year
of
issue
 
Start
date
 
Serial
number
 
Semyorka
packet
 
Blok-I
engine
 
 
Blok-L
 
 
Fairing
 
 
Payload
 
Orbital
name
         
8К78196010-10-1960Л1-4М8К748Д715КЛ7135 
8К78196014-10-1960Л1-5М8К748Д715КЛ7135 
8К78196012-02-1961Л1-6В8К748Д715КЛ71351ВАВенера-1
8К78196004-02-1961Л1-7В8К748Д715КЛ71351ВА 
         
8К78196204-01-1963Т103098К748Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6 
8К78196303-02-1963Г103108К748Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6 
8К78196302-04-1963Г103118К748Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Луна-4
8К78196225-08-1962Т103128К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-1 
8К78196201-09-1962Т103138К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-1 
8К78196212-09-1962Т103148К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-2 
8К78196224-10-1962Т103158К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-4 
8К78196201-11-1962Т103168К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-4Марс-1
8К78196204-11-1962Т103178К748Д715КЛ2300+71352МВ-3 
8К78М196311-11-1963Г1031811А578Д715ПЛ2300+71353МВ-1АКосмос-21
8К78М196219-02-1964Т15000-1911А578Д715ПЛ2300+71353МВ-1А 
8К78М196221-03-1964Т15000-2011А578Д715ПЛ2300+7135Е-6 
8К78М196220-04-1964T15000-2111А578Д715ПЛ2300+7135Е-6 
8К78М196227-03-1964T15000-2211А578Д715ПЛ2300+71353МВ-1Космос-27
8К78М196202-04-1964T15000-2311А578Д715ПЛ2300+71353МВ-1Зонд-1
         
8К78196412-03-1965Р10325 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Космос-60
8К78196410-04-1965Р10326 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6 
8К78196504-10-1965У10327 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Луна-7
8К78196503-12-1965У10328 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Луна-8
         
8К78196509-05-1965У10330 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Луна-5
8К78196508-06-1965У10331 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6Луна-6
8К78196531-01-1966У10332 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6МЛуна-9
         
8К78196404-06-1964Р10334 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196523-04-1965У10335 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196422-08-1964Р10336 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196514-10-1965У10337 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196627-03-1966Н10338 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196625-04-1966Н10339 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196620-10-1966Н10340 8Д715КЛ2300+713511Ф67Молния
8К78196601-03-1966Н10341 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6СКосмос-111
8К78196631-03-1966Н10342 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6СЛуна-10
8К78196624-08-1966Н10343 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6ЛФЛуна-11
8К78196622-10-1966Н10344 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6ЛФЛуна-12
8К78196621-12-1966Н10345 8Д715КЛ2300+7135Е-6МЛуна-13
         
8К78 16-11-1965  8Д715КЛ2300+71353МВ-3Венера-3
8К78 23-11-1965  8Д715КЛ2300+71353МВ-4Космос-96
         
8К78М196717-05-1967Я7165611А51111Д55Л7810Е-6ЛСКосмос-159
8К78М196707-02-1968Я7165711А51111Д55Л7810Е-6ЛС 
8К78М196707-04-1968Я7165811А51111Д55Л7810Е-6ЛСЛуна-14
         
8К78М 05-01-1969   ВЛ7810Венера-5
8К78М 10-01-1969   ВЛ7810Венера-6
8К78М 17-08-1970  8Д715КНВЛ7810Венера-7
8К78М 22-08-1970  8Д715КНВЛ7810Космос-359

http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/soyouz/liste/8K78M.html
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=304
http://www.astronaut.ru/luna/ussr_a2.htm
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3727&start=60
http://www.kbkha.ru/?p=8&cat=8&prod=37
http://www.kbkha.ru/?p=103
http://www.laspace.ru/rus/archive.php
Soviet Rocketry That Conquered Space
« Last Edit: 09/12/2011 12:15 pm by Stan Black »

Online Stan Black

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #27 on: 09/14/2011 05:38 pm »
 The U2 numbers go up to 76. There is little difference between the U and U2. Two flew as just U, also one was being prepared for Soyuz TM-23. The noticeable difference is some extra insulation around the 1st stage engines.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17286.msg698433#msg698433

Online Stan Black

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #28 on: 09/14/2011 08:23 pm »
 One issue with Mr. Varfolomeyev’s R-7 article part 6, is that it states the 8K78M adopted the 11S59 Semyorka packet from the 11A511 Soyuz in 1966-1967. Now according to Mr. Vovan over at the N.K. forum, the Soyuz-U introduced a Semyorka packet with a shorter instrument section; and that was the 11S59.
 It sounds that the Molniya started with an 8K74 R-7A derivative with blok-I powered by RD-0107, then progressed to 11A57 with RD-0108, before returning to RD-0107 and from February 1968 featured 11A511 with RD-0110. But it does not look like it progressed to an 11S59 equivalent with the shorter instrument section.

http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3727&start=60
http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/Soyuz/soyuz-blueprint.jpg
http://www.walkinspace.ru/photo/23-0-1745
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3634127.html?v=f4e34760f30dca144531d0676fdf2c26
http://www.samspace.ru/WEB/213.htm

Online jcm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #29 on: 09/15/2011 01:47 am »
 One issue with Mr. Varfolomeyev’s R-7 article part 6, is that it states the 8K78M adopted the 11S59 Semyorka packet from the 11A511 Soyuz in 1966-1967. Now according to Mr. Vovan over at the N.K. forum, the Soyuz-U introduced a Semyorka packet with a shorter instrument section; and that was the 11S59.
 It sounds that the Molniya started with an 8K74 R-7A derivative with blok-I powered by RD-0107, then progressed to 11A57 with RD-0108, before returning to RD-0107 and from February 1968 featured 11A511 with RD-0110. But it does not look like it progressed to an 11S59 equivalent with the shorter instrument section.
 
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3727&start=60
http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/Soyuz/soyuz-blueprint.jpg
http://www.walkinspace.ru/photo/23-0-1745
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3634127.html?v=f4e34760f30dca144531d0676fdf2c26
http://www.samspace.ru/WEB/213.htm


I thought the shorter instrument section was the difference between the 11A511 and the 11A511U? NK forum is broken for me at the moment...
But yes, the 8K78 tangle gets worse the more I look at it..
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Online Stan Black

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #30 on: 09/15/2011 09:13 pm »
One issue with Mr. Varfolomeyev’s R-7 article part 6, is that it states the 8K78M adopted the 11S59 Semyorka packet from the 11A511 Soyuz in 1966-1967. Now according to Mr. Vovan over at the N.K. forum, the Soyuz-U introduced a Semyorka packet with a shorter instrument section; and that was the 11S59.
 It sounds that the Molniya started with an 8K74 R-7A derivative with blok-I powered by RD-0107, then progressed to 11A57 with RD-0108, before returning to RD-0107 and from February 1968 featured 11A511 with RD-0110. But it does not look like it progressed to an 11S59 equivalent with the shorter instrument section.
 
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3727&start=60
http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/Soyuz/soyuz-blueprint.jpg
http://www.walkinspace.ru/photo/23-0-1745
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3634127.html?v=f4e34760f30dca144531d0676fdf2c26
http://www.samspace.ru/WEB/213.htm


I thought the shorter instrument section was the difference between the 11A511 and the 11A511U? NK forum is broken for me at the moment...
But yes, the 8K78 tangle gets worse the more I look at it..

 I think Mr. Varfolomeyev got it slightly incorrect? Molniya and maybe Voskhod both adopted the 11A511 packet, but the 11S59 is the shorter one for Soyuz-U.

Well, we’ll just have to keep waiting for part 14…
http://www.cosmopark.ru/r7/prig10.htm

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #31 on: 09/16/2011 06:57 pm »
 One issue with Mr. Varfolomeyev’s R-7 article part 6, is that it states the 8K78M adopted the 11S59 Semyorka packet from the 11A511 Soyuz in 1966-1967. Now according to Mr. Vovan over at the N.K. forum, the Soyuz-U introduced a Semyorka packet with a shorter instrument section; and that was the 11S59.
 It sounds that the Molniya started with an 8K74 R-7A derivative with blok-I powered by RD-0107, then progressed to 11A57 with RD-0108, before returning to RD-0107 and from February 1968 featured 11A511 with RD-0110. But it does not look like it progressed to an 11S59 equivalent with the shorter instrument section.
 
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3727&start=60
http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/Soyuz/soyuz-blueprint.jpg
http://www.walkinspace.ru/photo/23-0-1745
http://rutube.ru/tracks/3634127.html?v=f4e34760f30dca144531d0676fdf2c26
http://www.samspace.ru/WEB/213.htm


I thought the shorter instrument section was the difference between the 11A511 and the 11A511U? NK forum is broken for me at the moment...
But yes, the 8K78 tangle gets worse the more I look at it..

 I think Mr. Varfolomeyev got it slightly incorrect? Molniya and maybe Voskhod both adopted the 11A511 packet, but the 11S59 is the shorter one for Soyuz-U.

Well, we’ll just have to keep waiting for part 14…
http://www.cosmopark.ru/r7/prig10.htm

 Looks like one part of an 11A511 Soyuz was an 11S54; but I don’t know what part.

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #32 on: 09/17/2011 05:45 pm »
8K78 is a big problem of course.
A part of it is that Varfolomeyev's list of production numbers is questionable. In fact there exist four or five different versions of the list, all incomplete and incompatible. There are vehicles with up to three numbers in different sources. For example, the 11 Nov 1963 vehicle is said to be G103-18, or G15000-06, or G15000-17. The 27 Mar 1966 vehicle is known as U15000-40, N103-36 and N103-38 etc.
This message reflects my personal opinion based on open sources of information.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #33 on: 09/20/2011 10:16 pm »
According to the Plesetsk history "Severnyy kosmodrom Rossii" (vol. 1) two more R-7A "training/combat launches" (UBP) were originally planned for September 1969 from Plesetsk pad nr. 3 as part of an unspecified operation called "Berkut", but they were cancelled for reasons that are not given. This is rather strange, because according to the same source pads 1, 3 and 4 were officially removed from combat duty on 20 July 1968. BTW, does anyone know the dates when the two Baikonur R-7A pads were officially removed from combat duty?

Note that a considerable number of R-7(A) launches from Baikonur in the early 1960s were performed by or with the help of Plesetsk launch teams in order to give them the necessary experience with combat launch operations. The ones identified in the book are :
30 July 1959, 21 November 1959, 4 June 1960, 27 February 1961, 4/5 July 1961, 2 July 1962, 22 April 1963, 18 May 1963, 27 July 1964.

The Plesetsk history gives the launch times for the 4/5 July shots as 9 a.m. (4 July) and 1.30 a.m. (5 July). Not clear whether that is Baikonur or Moscow time, but in either case the second one took place on 4 July GMT. 

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Offline Danderman

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #35 on: 09/10/2014 11:05 pm »

http://frs-vetlana.livejournal.com/222305.html

This links to a nice photo essay on the Bauman Laboratory at Orevo.

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #36 on: 10/15/2014 08:33 pm »
In is translation of Chertok's memoirs, Volume 2, page 449, Asif Siddiqi mentions an R-7 launch on 31st September 1959, with serial number IZ-30.

Someone has a confirmation of this launch ? I found no other sources about that ?
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Offline asdert

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #37 on: 10/16/2014 09:34 am »
September has only 30 days. Maybe another month?

Online Stan Black

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #38 on: 10/16/2014 03:45 pm »
In is translation of Chertok's memoirs, Volume 2, page 449, Asif Siddiqi mentions an R-7 launch on 31st September 1959, with serial number IZ-30.

Someone has a confirmation of this launch ? I found no other sources about that ?

Is is probably a number instead of the Z, И3-30

Offline RanulfC

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Re: R-7 missile launches
« Reply #39 on: 10/16/2014 05:57 pm »
September has only 30 days. Maybe another month?

Hey, if Moscow says you're launching on the 31st of September, you better dang well launch on the 31st of September! :)

Randy
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British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

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