Author Topic: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module  (Read 14657 times)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« on: 08/19/2022 09:30 pm »
twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1560739973833412608

Quote
NASA issued an RFI today looking for industry input on a proposed deorbit module for the ISS to bring it down at the end of its life, something originally projected to be done by Progress cargo spacecraft. https://sam.gov/opp/74252cfe7d49416abae0977fe4fd503c/view

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1560740299680497667

Quote
From a NASA statement: ISS partners “developed a strategy and action plan that evaluated the use of multiple Roscosmos Progress spacecraft to support deorbit operations. These studies indicated additional spacecraft may provide more robust capabilities for deorbit.”
« Last Edit: 08/19/2022 09:31 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #1 on: 08/19/2022 11:28 pm »
Berger with the burns
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1560740178519621635
They have some flight capable TKS/MLM test articles lying around which could be converted to flight articles though they are trying to move away from outdated legacy Soviet heritage designs and hardware when possible.

Offline Tomness

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #2 on: 08/19/2022 11:37 pm »
Hopefully NG will Bid MEVS or Stripped down Cygnuses.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #3 on: 08/19/2022 11:47 pm »
Berger with the burns
They have some flight capable TKS/MLM test articles lying around which could be converted to flight articles though they are trying to move away from outdated legacy Soviet heritage designs and hardware when possible.

I think this is more about the thruster firings after docking that put the station into an uncontrolled spin rather than how long it took / will take to build equivalent hardware.
Yeah but what did anyone expect with a rushed delivery timeline of module at the end running on turned out to be partially unverified software which started out as the same software on FGB then modified into a hybrid to install domesticated hardware when original hardware was no longer available. The same applies to the Luna-25 et cetera programme where they are starting with legacy hardware and software found in museums, storage, and private owners and having to find the remaining retirees that worked on it to learn how to build a modern functioning equivalent. That is the jist of the problem there industry is struggling to deal with.
« Last Edit: 08/19/2022 11:48 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #4 on: 08/19/2022 11:50 pm »
I wonder if you could send up an electrodynamic tether and some kind of resistojet/arcjet setup for bulk dV, and leave the fine targeting for final burn to the existing thrusters? ED tether in generator mode will drag the ISS down, and the power could also be fed into a simpler electric thruster like a resistojet as the power sink which doubles as additional deorbit thrust...

Offline hektor

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #5 on: 08/20/2022 09:57 am »
I am surprised that they do not ask the IPs.

An ATV-6 derived from the original ATV or an HTV-X derived as well.

Or you could think of a derivative of the Orion where the ESM would be more or less the same and the crew module would be replaced by a structure to dock with the ISS and to house the batteries and the avionics.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2022 10:00 am by hektor »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #6 on: 08/20/2022 11:17 am »
For 300ISP engine it will need 7.5t of fuel for 47ms DV required and engine of 3.3kn or 7klbs.

This will need to be purpose built vehicle with SpaceX or NG being my pick given their excellent record servicing ISS.

Offline hektor

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #7 on: 08/20/2022 11:40 am »
Orion ESM carries 8.6 t of fuel.

Online niwax

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #8 on: 08/20/2022 11:54 am »
For 300ISP engine it will need 7.5t of fuel for 47ms DV required and engine of 3.3kn or 7klbs.

This will need to be purpose built vehicle with SpaceX or NG being my pick given their excellent record servicing ISS.

Either that, or I could imagine something derived from one of the many new space tugs, especially MEV and Photon. NG seems pretty open about collaboration, and they have a great platform to start with.

My guess for an evaluation would be:
1) Modified Cygnus
2) MEV (+ Cygnus?)
3) Cygnus + Photon
4) Obligatory SpaceX bid with varying quality depending on their mood
5) A happy mix of companies you've never heard of proposing ludicrous budgets or nonexistent spacecraft
Which booster has the most soot? SpaceX booster launch history! (discussion)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #9 on: 08/20/2022 11:57 am »
Orion ESM carries 8.6 t of fuel.
The engine is powerful enough maybe to powerful.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #10 on: 08/20/2022 12:07 pm »
For 300ISP engine it will need 7.5t of fuel for 47ms DV required and engine of 3.3kn or 7klbs.

This will need to be purpose built vehicle with SpaceX or NG being my pick given their excellent record servicing ISS.

Either that, or I could imagine something derived from one of the many new space tugs, especially MEV and Photon. NG seems pretty open about collaboration, and they have a great platform to start with.

My guess for an evaluation would be:
1) Modified Cygnus
2) MEV (+ Cygnus?)
3) Cygnus + Photon
4) Obligatory SpaceX bid with varying quality depending on their mood
5) A happy mix of companies you've never heard of proposing ludicrous budgets or nonexistent spacecraft
Photon is only 300kg. In saying that RL might make bid. They are more than capable enough of building electric pump engines powerful enough that use same fuel as Photon. Would give them OTV for Neutron.

Offline hektor

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #11 on: 08/20/2022 12:25 pm »
Orion ESM carries 8.6 t of fuel.
The engine is powerful enough maybe to powerful.
ESM has eight Aux 400 N thrusters as back up of the OMS-E. You keep them or maybe only a subset, and you delete the OMS-E

In fact you have once the OMS is removed a set of engines very similar to The one of the ATV
« Last Edit: 08/20/2022 12:28 pm by hektor »

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #12 on: 08/20/2022 02:42 pm »
Nasa says in this RFI that, "The deorbit vehicle design and operations shall allow rendezvous and attach to the ISS at Node 2 Forward."
 So what must be the preference for docking mechanism, dock to CBM or an IDA?
( if Boeing spacex doesn't win)
https://sam.gov/opp/74252cfe7d49416abae0977fe4fd503c/view
Because  there are two cases with sub cases:-
1) if axiom comes and goes then will we dock this module to the CBM hatch or relocate the pma2 to node 2 forward again?
2) if axiom is cancelled then will we dock this module to pma2 on forward or to a clear CBM forward port on reloaction of pma2?
« Last Edit: 08/20/2022 02:44 pm by Chinakpradhan »

Online AnalogMan

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #13 on: 08/20/2022 03:44 pm »
Nasa says in this RFI that, "The deorbit vehicle design and operations shall allow rendezvous and attach to the ISS at Node 2 Forward."
 So what must be the preference for docking mechanism, dock to CBM or an IDA?

Deorbit vehicle may need to be required to switch mechanisms before launch, depending upon timing relative to other events.  See slide from presentation.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2022 03:45 pm by AnalogMan »

Offline Asteroza

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #14 on: 08/21/2022 11:10 pm »
Hrm, talk of Photon gave me a brain fart.

Could they secure power from ISS to run electric hypercuries?

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #15 on: 08/22/2022 02:48 am »
Quote from: SpaceNews
H3 is designed to lift more than 7,900 kilograms to geosynchronous transfer orbit, Hyodo said. The rocket could, with an upgraded second stage, heft more than 3,400 kilograms of pressurized cargo and more than 1,000 kilograms of unpressurized cargo to the lunar Gateway space station using HTV-X, he said.

Launching an HTV-X cargo vessel  to the gateway would require two H3 launches, he said. The first launch would send an HTV-X into an orbit around the Earth, he said. The second launch would send up an upper stage with an enlarged fuel tank to dock with the HTV-X and propel it to the Gateway, he said. https://spacenews.com/mitsubishi-heavy-industries-mulls-upgraded-h3-rocket-variants-for-lunar-missions/
I think an proposed h3 launching a improved second stage is so uitable for deorbiting iss
« Last Edit: 08/22/2022 03:01 am by Chinakpradhan »

Online niwax

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #16 on: 08/22/2022 10:22 pm »
For 300ISP engine it will need 7.5t of fuel for 47ms DV required and engine of 3.3kn or 7klbs.

This will need to be purpose built vehicle with SpaceX or NG being my pick given their excellent record servicing ISS.

Either that, or I could imagine something derived from one of the many new space tugs, especially MEV and Photon. NG seems pretty open about collaboration, and they have a great platform to start with.

My guess for an evaluation would be:
1) Modified Cygnus
2) MEV (+ Cygnus?)
3) Cygnus + Photon
4) Obligatory SpaceX bid with varying quality depending on their mood
5) A happy mix of companies you've never heard of proposing ludicrous budgets or nonexistent spacecraft
Photon is only 300kg. In saying that RL might make bid. They are more than capable enough of building electric pump engines powerful enough that use same fuel as Photon. Would give them OTV for Neutron.

The naming is a bit confusing, but Photon refers both to the kick stage as well the general toolkit of components. That 300kg Photon for CAPSTONE was a custom order sized to their mission requirements. IIRC, they've already talked about Photon missions flying on larger vehicles like F9.

I guess if you want to go crazy you could also forego the extra vehicle entirely and slap a docking port and some Dragon avionics on a Falcon second stage. That thing will arrive in LEO with 15 tons of fuel to spare and plenty of time to dock thanks to GEO capability.
Which booster has the most soot? SpaceX booster launch history! (discussion)

Offline Asteroza

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #17 on: 08/22/2022 10:30 pm »
I guess if you want to go crazy you could also forego the extra vehicle entirely and slap a docking port and some Dragon avionics on a Falcon second stage. That thing will arrive in LEO with 15 tons of fuel to spare and plenty of time to dock thanks to GEO capability.

Isn't that a little too beefy for this with the Merlin engine?

Online cohberg

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Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #18 on: 08/22/2022 10:45 pm »
I guess if you want to go crazy you could also forego the extra vehicle entirely and slap a docking port and some Dragon avionics on a Falcon second stage. That thing will arrive in LEO with 15 tons of fuel to spare and plenty of time to dock thanks to GEO capability.

Isn't that a little too beefy for this with the Merlin engine?

Try 100 times too strong

Quote from: From the RFI supplemental: ISS Deorbit USOS Concept of Operations Overview
To ensure ISS structural integrity, the maximum allowable thrust is 6178 N (6.2kN)

Merlin vacuum at min thrust is 626 kN.

My guess for an evaluation would be:
1) Modified Cygnus

You'd need 7 Cygnus' or a Cygnus with 7 engines to make enough thrust. BT-4 engine on Cygnus only makes .45kN.

The RFI is very clear: 3kN - 6kN thrust. More if you can deep throttle and ramp up.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: NASA RFI for ISS deorbit module
« Reply #19 on: 08/23/2022 06:13 pm »


I guess if you want to go crazy you could also forego the extra vehicle entirely and slap a docking port and some Dragon avionics on a Falcon second stage. That thing will arrive in LEO with 15 tons of fuel to spare and plenty of time to dock thanks to GEO capability.

Isn't that a little too beefy for this with the Merlin engine?

Try 100 times too strong

Quote from: From the RFI supplemental: ISS Deorbit USOS Concept of Operations Overview
To ensure ISS structural integrity, the maximum allowable thrust is 6178 N (6.2kN)

F9 stage has to survive upto year attached to ISS while meeting all stations safety requirements.

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