MOL discussion

[Archibald]

I don't know what I found more interesting, the article (which was good) or some of the TSR comments (Which are also good).

Nice article.

GOOD comments ? does that still exist somewhere on the Internet ? can't believe it... (btw for some time TSR actually had no comments at all, seems they have reintroduced them, perhaps according to the author will...)

[Pedantic Twit]

Thanks for the article, interesting stuff.

Shame the images got deleted off Wikipedia.

The images were removed from the KH-10 entry (Wikipedia pages are not galleries), they're still on Wikimedia Commons here and here.

[Star One]

Thanks for the article, interesting stuff.

Shame the images got deleted off Wikipedia.

The images were removed from the KH-10 entry (Wikipedia pages are not galleries), they're still on Wikimedia Commons here and here.

Thank you for those links.

How were they going to re-supply this station, one of the diagrams shows something described as the manned re-supply, so were they going to just rely on sending supplies up with the Astronauts in the Gemini capsule.

[Blackstar]

Thanks for the article, interesting stuff.

Shame the images got deleted off Wikipedia.

The images were removed from the KH-10 entry (Wikipedia pages are not galleries), they're still on Wikimedia Commons here and here.

Thank you for those links.

How were they going to re-supply this station, one of the diagrams shows something described as the manned re-supply, so were they going to just rely on sending supplies up with the Astronauts in the Gemini capsule.

No resupply. 30 day mission, throw everything away at the end of the mission.

[John Charles]

True. But some of the just-released declassified images depict proposed, dare I say fictional, concepts for future multi-MOL long-term stations with resupply vehicles. I'm not referring to the cross-sections of the KH-10 system, but the others. Those fanciful images cannot have been anything more than sales pitches, more wishful thinking than hard engineering.

[Star One]

True. But some of the just-released declassified images depict proposed, dare I say fictional, concepts for future multi-MOL long-term stations with resupply vehicles. I'm not referring to the cross-sections of the KH-10 system, but the others. Those fanciful images cannot have been anything more than sales pitches, more wishful thinking than hard engineering.

It seems a better proposition than throwing everything away after thirty days.

Was the thirty day throwaway nature of the project and the ensuing costs one of the elements that counted against it.

[the_other_Doug]

I think one reason why MOL was pursued after the KH-8 went into service was simply a paradigm thing.  I think the Air Force generals were stuck on the idea that they could have an asset where a reconnaissance of any given location under the groundtrack could be ordered up on the basis of "Hey, guys, we think something odd is happening at Site Whatever, take a look and take shots of anything you find interesting."

The way the MOL paradigm worked, you didn't take pictures of everything, you had human judgment deciding what merited the high-res imagery.  When you get into a paradigm that, whatever else happens, it is always best to have a trained person selecting your imaging targets real-time, you pursue MOL even when it doesn't make sense.  (Italics meant to emphasize the vulnerable aspects of the paradigm.)

BTW, I'm pretty certain that the Soviet Almaz imaging system worked pretty much the same way -- you got a real-time view through the optics, and took pictures of what looked interesting.  I've seen a "recreation" of the Almaz' imaging system being operated and a description of how it was operated by one of the guys who flew it.  I wish I could remember which documentary it was in, but at this point I can blame the pain meds for my lack of ability to access long-term memories...

-Doug (with my shield, not yet upon it)

[Blackstar]

You're thinking of the documentary "Astrospies." Google it. It might even be online.

Of course, the counter to having somebody pressing the shutter button was just loading up the satellite with a lot of film and taking pictures of everything. Easier to load a thousand pounds of film than 15,000 pounds of astronauts support equipment.

[the_other_Doug]

You're thinking of the documentary "Astrospies." Google it. It might even be online.

Of course, the counter to having somebody pressing the shutter button was just loading up the satellite with a lot of film and taking pictures of everything. Easier to load a thousand pounds of film than 15,000 pounds of astronauts support equipment.

Yes, definitely.  That's glaringly obvious to us now, and was so to a lot of people outside of the Air Force at the time.  But, as I say, I think the USAF was somewhat blinded by their paradigm, and just couldn't believe that it was ever going to be better to image everything and reduce it later than having someone pressing the shutter button.

It's amazing how blinding a given set of paradigms can become, I think.

-Doug (with my shield, not yet upon it)

[Moskit]

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2539/1

If HEXAGON was 2 feet / 60cm resolution, how to compare that with "softball dropped on a parking lot" resolution quoted for KH-10?

Ball sizes are anything from 4cm (pingpong, although it's a hard ball) to over 25cm (soft medical ball) :-/

[kevin-rf]

Dodge Ball

[Blackstar]

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2539/1

If HEXAGON was 2 feet / 60cm resolution, how to compare that with "softball dropped on a parking lot" resolution quoted for KH-10?

KH-10 was 4 inches. I looked up the diameter of a softball. The "adult" softball is about 3.8 inches. So about 4 inches. (I also tried to come up with a better analogy and couldn't get any kind of common object that's around 4 inches and also commonly known to be white. I looked up the dimensions of a pack of cigarettes and that was too small.)

Oh, and HEXAGON was a lot better than 2 feet.

Somebody could calculate the diffraction limit for HEXAGON. I'm just sayin'...

[Moskit]

Ah, thanks! I did not realize "softball" is a specific kind of ball, chalk it up to cultural difference.

Technology is amazing, I wish Russians revealed as much of theirs in museums and documents as USA folks do.

[Blackstar]

1-Ah, thanks! I did not realize "softball" is a specific kind of ball, chalk it up to cultural difference.

2-Technology is amazing, I wish Russians revealed as much of theirs in museums and documents as USA folks do.

1-It's essentially the game of baseball, for wusses.

2-The Russians in some ways were/are ahead of us in releasing some intelligence satellite information. I think that with the G and H declassifications, and the MOL material, the U.S. has now released a lot more. But the Russians actually released info on a number of their systems before the United States did, and they have also released some information on their RORSAT, ASAT and elint satellite programs.

[Danderman]

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2539/1

Interesting photos of MOL hardware under construction.

So .... what happened to the hardware?

[Star One]

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2539/1

Interesting photos of MOL hardware under construction.

So .... what happened to the hardware?

Probably put in a warehouse somewhere and forgotten about.

[Jim Davis]

So .... what happened to the hardware?

I hope I'm not stealing your lines here but didn't you once opine that the MOL hardware formed the basis of the Skylab airlock module? I seem to recall you pointing out the identical 10 foot diameters.

Or maybe my memory is failing me.

[DMeader]

1-It's essentially the game of baseball, for wusses.

So you've obviously never been hit by a pitch in fast-pitch softball.

I hope I'm not stealing your lines here but didn't you once opine that the MOL hardware formed the basis of the Skylab airlock module? I seem to recall you pointing out the identical 10 foot diameters.

Don't know about the diameter, but the Skylab airlock module did use a Gemini hatch.

[Jim]

So .... what happened to the hardware?

I hope I'm not stealing your lines here but didn't you once opine that the MOL hardware formed the basis of the Skylab airlock module? I seem to recall you pointing out the identical 10 foot diameters.

There is no connection between the MDA and MOL.
The MDA structure was built in-house by MSFC and given to Martin to outfit.  The MDA design task was given to MSFC in early 1967.
There is no connection between the Airlock module and MOL.
McDonnell had the airlock module long before it merged with Douglas.  McDonnell was put on contract in late 1966

[Danderman]

I'm just asking what happened to the hardware that clearly was built.