Author Topic: Orbital's Antares Development Update Thread  (Read 1065121 times)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #700 on: 11/23/2010 04:04 am »
TVC = gimbaling, I presume.


TVC = Thrust Vector Control.

OK, I'll bite: for Taurus II, how the thrust vector controlled?

 ???

Offline simonbp

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #701 on: 11/23/2010 04:33 am »

Offline Antares

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #702 on: 11/23/2010 06:13 am »
IIRC, the NK-33 was not gimbaled for N-1?  Something spinning at several thousand RPM and then tilting leaves me skittish, especially when there's oxidizer involved.  Is there another engine where a turbopump moves with the nozzle?
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Offline STS-200

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #703 on: 11/23/2010 09:06 am »
IIRC, the NK-33 was not gimbaled for N-1?  Something spinning at several thousand RPM and then tilting leaves me skittish, especially when there's oxidizer involved.  Is there another engine where a turbopump moves with the nozzle?

Most pump fed engines do.

Its much easier to design a low pressure flexible feed line than a high pressure one - for mass, reliability and resonance reasons.
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Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #704 on: 11/23/2010 03:11 pm »
IIRC, the NK-33 was not gimbaled for N-1?  Something spinning at several thousand RPM and then tilting leaves me skittish, especially when there's oxidizer involved.  Is there another engine where a turbopump moves with the nozzle?

Off the top of my head, the only US one that doesn't move the turbopump is the Titan II.

The Russians use fixed turbopumps a lot (RD170 family, including RD180).

But moving rotating machinery rapidly is not that unusual: fighters do it routinely.

Offline zaitcev

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #705 on: 11/23/2010 04:40 pm »
Observe two thing:
 - the TVC system for AJ-26 was developed by Aerojet in U.S., although a long time ago
 - A project existed in 2006 to create a similar system at SNTK in Russia, called "NK-33-1", it failed

The reason SNTK failed to replicate what Aerojet have done was the lack of qualified personnel. The company is an empty shell of former self now. When the situation became clear, TsSKB decided to use RD-0110R on what was renamed into Soyuz-2-1v (also, 7 tonne-force of extra thrust, win-win for everyone except SNTK).

So, I wonder if Aerojet would be able to do the same in 2010. If yes, it may be better to bet on them to restart the production by 2016, than on Kuznetsov or whatever government structure (an "FGUP") swallows their remnant by then.

(NK-33-1 was supposed to include roll control too, for use in Soyuz-1, which would make it a bit different from AJ-26, but that's a small detail.)

Offline Jim

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #706 on: 11/23/2010 04:42 pm »
Off the top of my head, the only US one that doesn't move the turbopump is the Titan II.


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Offline Antares

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #707 on: 11/23/2010 06:48 pm »
RS-27 and RS-68 only move the chambers.  RL10 moves the whole thing.  SSME moves the high pressures.  But those were designed for it.  The N-1 steered with variable thrust.
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Offline drbobguy

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #708 on: 11/23/2010 06:53 pm »
RS-27 and RS-68 only move the chambers.  RL10 moves the whole thing.  SSME moves the high pressures.  But those were designed for it.  The N-1 steered with variable thrust.

And on the later flights with vernier thrusters for roll control.  I'm still not clear on this, but the first two flights didn't have those vernier thrusters, so I assume they used attitude control thrusters for roll control.

Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #709 on: 11/23/2010 09:37 pm »
Observe two thing:
 - the TVC system for AJ-26 was developed by Aerojet in U.S., although a long time ago
 - A project existed in 2006 to create a similar system at SNTK in Russia, called "NK-33-1", it failed

The reason SNTK failed to replicate what Aerojet have done was the lack of qualified personnel. The company is an empty shell of former self now.
The TVC system for NK-33-1 was developed by Arsenal (Saint Petersburg) in USSR for RD-0120, although a long time ago.

Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #710 on: 11/23/2010 10:10 pm »
Observe two thing:
 - the TVC system for AJ-26 was developed by Aerojet in U.S., although a long time ago
 - A project existed in 2006 to create a similar system at SNTK in Russia, called "NK-33-1", it failed

The reason SNTK failed to replicate what Aerojet have done was the lack of qualified personnel. The company is an empty shell of former self now. When the situation became clear, TsSKB decided to use RD-0110R on what was renamed into Soyuz-2-1v (also, 7 tonne-force of extra thrust, win-win for everyone except SNTK).

So, I wonder if Aerojet would be able to do the same in 2010. If yes, it may be better to bet on them to restart the production by 2016, than on Kuznetsov or whatever government structure (an "FGUP") swallows their remnant by then.

(NK-33-1 was supposed to include roll control too, for use in Soyuz-1, which would make it a bit different from AJ-26, but that's a small detail.)
The lift-off mass of Soyuz-1 is 158t . SNTK refused to increase the thrust of NK-33 produced 40 years ago from 154 tf to 185-190 tf. 
Then TsSKB decided to use RD-0110R (30tf + TVC) and stationary NK-33 (154 tf + 8% = 166 tf).
« Last Edit: 11/23/2010 10:12 pm by Salo »

Offline zaitcev

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #711 on: 11/23/2010 10:41 pm »
The lift-off mass of Soyuz-1 is 158t . SNTK refused to increase the thrust of NK-33 produced 40 years ago from 154 tf to 185-190 tf. 
Then TsSKB decided to use RD-0110R (30tf + TVC) and stationary NK-33 (154 tf + 8% = 166 tf).
Thanks for explaining that. I suppose 30 is nothing to sneeze at.

Offline simonbp

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #712 on: 11/23/2010 11:33 pm »
I'm still not clear on this, but the first two flights didn't have those vernier thrusters, so I assume they used attitude control thrusters for roll control.

Fat lot of good it did on the third flight, which IIRC spun itself to pieces...  :-\

Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #713 on: 11/24/2010 05:02 am »
The lift-off mass of Soyuz-1 is 158t . SNTK refused to increase the thrust of NK-33 produced 40 years ago from 154 tf to 185-190 tf. 
Then TsSKB decided to use RD-0110R (30tf + TVC) and stationary NK-33 (154 tf + 8% = 166 tf).
Thanks for explaining that. I suppose 30 is nothing to sneeze at.
Yes, I made a mistake. Sea level trust RD-0110 is near 24tf. But this is not significantly.

Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #714 on: 11/24/2010 05:22 am »
RS-27 and RS-68 only move the chambers.  RL10 moves the whole thing.  SSME moves the high pressures.  But those were designed for it.  The N-1 steered with variable thrust.

And on the later flights with vernier thrusters for roll control.  I'm still not clear on this, but the first two flights didn't have those vernier thrusters, so I assume they used attitude control thrusters for roll control.
Hot gaz from gaz-generator discharged through the steering nozzles used for roll control on N-1. There were six steering nozzles on the first stage N-1. Hot gaz also used for fuel tank pressurization.

Offline drbobguy

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #715 on: 11/24/2010 05:31 am »
Hot gaz from gaz-generator discharged through the steering nozzles used for roll control on N-1. There were six steering nozzles on the first stage N-1. Hot gaz also used for fuel tank pressurization.

Interesting!

So the gas used in the vernier steering nozzles came from the heat exchanger also used in tank pressurization?

So the question remains, if there were only six nozzles on the first stage (and those are very small!), which engines were connected to the six nozzles? Or were there tap-offs on each engine for the vernier nozzles?

Спасибо вам огромное за информацию.  Я читал оригналние документы о НК-33 в архиве в самаре, но этот вопрос останился.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2010 05:32 am by drbobguy »

Offline Downix

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #716 on: 11/24/2010 05:37 am »
Hot gaz from gaz-generator discharged through the steering nozzles used for roll control on N-1. There were six steering nozzles on the first stage N-1. Hot gaz also used for fuel tank pressurization.

Interesting!

So the gas used in the vernier steering nozzles came from the heat exchanger also used in tank pressurization?

So the question remains, if there were only six nozzles on the first stage (and those are very small!), which engines were connected to the six nozzles? Or were there tap-offs on each engine for the vernier nozzles?

Спасибо вам огромное за информацию.  Я читал оригналние документы о НК-33 в архиве в самаре, но этот вопрос останился.
It is also telling of the changes which were done on the N1 from the NK-15 to the NK-33.
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Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #717 on: 11/24/2010 09:05 am »
Interesting!Спасибо вам огромное за информацию.  Я читал оригналние документы о НК-33 в архиве в самаре, но этот вопрос останился.
Antipov Vladimir Nikolaevich (nick Vovan) posted this infomation on NK forum.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2010 09:08 am by Salo »

Offline Salo

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #718 on: 11/24/2010 09:48 am »
Interesting!

So the gas used in the vernier steering nozzles came from the heat exchanger also used in tank pressurization?

So the question remains, if there were only six nozzles on the first stage (and those are very small!), which engines were connected to the six nozzles? Or were there tap-offs on each engine for the vernier nozzles?я.
I don't know.
But I think the hot gas discharged in six nozzles from six engines gas-generators trap without heat exchanger. Gas-generator traps with heat exchangers from other 24 engines used for tank pressurisation.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2010 09:49 am by Salo »

Offline Freddie

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #719 on: 12/02/2010 02:02 pm »
AntonioE generously continues teaching to advance aerospace - this time with the news media!  Good work and thank you!

Rocket Science 101
Sponsored By
The Virginia Commercial Space Flight Authority & Mid-Atlantic Regional Spaceport,
The Virginia Press Association and
The Virginia Association of Broadcasters

The Virginia Commercial Space Flight Authority (VCSFA) & Mid-Atlantic Regional Spaceport (MARS) in cooperation with the Virginia Press Association and Virginia Association of Broadcasters are sponsoring “Rocket Science 101” an educational seminar on April 21, 2011 at the VPA headquarters in Glen Allen, VA.

The purpose of the workshop is to educate print, electronic, broadcast and cable media, about Virginia’s newest business, commercial space launches to the International Space Station from the Mid-Atlantic Regional Spaceport on Orbital Sciences Corp’s., new Taurus II rocket. MARS first launch to the moon in 2012 will also be discussed. Business, policy, science/technology and general interest journalists, reporters, publishers and writers are encouraged to attend.

Topics covered will include the business aspects of rocket design and rocket launching; the Taurus II rocket design and technology, the business of launching rockets and the role of MARS,  a commercial spaceport located on Virginia’s Eastern Shore, safety and range control center operations and responsibilities, commercial space, NASA’s COTS/CRS programs . 

Following this workshop, the VCSFA/MARS will be offering tours of the MARS Spaceport, May 2, 3 or 4th from  10:30 am to 3:30 pm.  The Spaceport is located on Wallops Island, on the Eastern Shore. NASA Security procedures require each participant to provide first, middle and last names, title, company/organization, phone and e mail address, and confirmation of U.S. Citizenship.  Tour participants must also bring a photo ID the day of their tour.

This program will be presented by Dr. Antonio Elias,  Orbital Sciences Corporation’s Executive Vice President  & General Manager for Advanced Programs,  Billie M. Reed, Executive Director of the VCSFA & MARS;  Thomas “Jay” Pittman, Chief,  Range and Mission Management at NASA Wallops. 

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