Author Topic: Orbital's Antares Development Update Thread  (Read 1064988 times)

Offline robertross

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #340 on: 03/31/2010 08:34 pm »
So what impact will opening up the Virginia coast to oil drilling have on Taurus/Wallops operations?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_drilling

It is my understanding that it would be the same as any other launch: no personnel downrange of the launch path out to a certain limit. For a drill rig, they would have to move, or have the personnel leave during the period of the launch.

If they end up with a gas platform, that's best since they are usually unmanned. Oil platforms are a different issue, especially gravity structures and the like, but if they go with an FPSO, then they could always disconnect. They wouldn't liek that though, as to production costs, but that's life: don't explore in the 'danger' areas.

Offline Antares

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #341 on: 04/01/2010 04:12 am »
Wow.  That's a great question.  NSF pays dividends again.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline simonbp

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #342 on: 04/01/2010 07:06 am »
I read a rumour that Aerojet offered the hypergolic AJ-10.  Given that this worked so well on the Delta-II, it isn't a bad option.

Heck, license the Delta II upper stage plans from ULA/Boeing and slap it on there. It's almost the right size, has almost zero risk, and would be 100% American (keeping the total vehicle >51%)...

Offline Downix

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #343 on: 04/01/2010 12:48 pm »
I read a rumour that Aerojet offered the hypergolic AJ-10.  Given that this worked so well on the Delta-II, it isn't a bad option.

Heck, license the Delta II upper stage plans from ULA/Boeing and slap it on there. It's almost the right size, has almost zero risk, and would be 100% American (keeping the total vehicle >51%)...
Could even just buy them right from ULA/Boeing.  An interesting proposal, you must admit.  Same upper stage, but with a lower stage which has 4x the thrust and higher ISP.
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Offline Freddie

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #344 on: 04/01/2010 12:52 pm »
So what impact will opening up the Virginia coast to oil drilling have on Taurus/Wallops operations?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_drilling

The Daily Press of Hampton Roads, Virginia carried a news article this morning at http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_offshore-drilling_0401apr01,0,2214700.story.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #345 on: 04/01/2010 01:31 pm »
I congratulate Orbital with April, 1st!
Taurus-III:

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #346 on: 04/01/2010 02:34 pm »
I congratulate Orbital with April, 1st!
Taurus-III:


The April 1st rumor I heard was they gained so much experience with the NK-33's that the Taurus-III-0 first stage was gonna have 30 NK-33's ;)

They are just waiting for enough stimulus money to relocate the VAB to Wallops.
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #347 on: 04/01/2010 03:32 pm »
I congratulate Orbital with April, 1st!
Taurus-III:


Wow!  I like it!  Seriously!!!
« Last Edit: 04/01/2010 03:37 pm by antonioe »
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #348 on: 04/01/2010 03:36 pm »
I congratulate Orbital with April, 1st!
Taurus-III:


The April 1st rumor I heard was they gained so much experience with the NK-33's that the Taurus-III-0 first stage was gonna have 30 NK-33's ;)

They are just waiting for enough stimulus money to relocate the VAB to Wallops.

Rats!  You found us out!  But the problem is not moving the VAB, it's the Crawler/Transporter's ground pressure load... the ground at Wallops is so soft that the tracks sink 12 ft before the sand compacts enough to hold the weight of the silly thing...
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Offline Kim Keller

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #349 on: 04/01/2010 03:51 pm »
Heck, license the Delta II upper stage plans from ULA/Boeing and slap it on there. It's almost the right size, has almost zero risk, and would be 100% American (keeping the total vehicle >51%)...

Delta II second stage uses Italian tanks.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #350 on: 04/01/2010 05:32 pm »

Rats!  You found us out!  But the problem is not moving the VAB, it's the Crawler/Transporter's ground pressure load... the ground at Wallops is so soft that the tracks sink 12 ft before the sand compacts enough to hold the weight of the silly thing...

Antonioe, Every time you mention the Wallops soil I keep thinking about a  mid 80's mag article that had a picture of a pile coming back up in a parking lot right next to the pile driver...
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Offline just-nick

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #351 on: 04/01/2010 05:57 pm »
I read a rumour that Aerojet offered the hypergolic AJ-10.  Given that this worked so well on the Delta-II, it isn't a bad option.

Heck, license the Delta II upper stage plans from ULA/Boeing and slap it on there. It's almost the right size, has almost zero risk, and would be 100% American (keeping the total vehicle >51%)...
Could even just buy them right from ULA/Boeing.  An interesting proposal, you must admit.  Same upper stage, but with a lower stage which has 4x the thrust and higher ISP.
I don't think that just popping a Delta-K stage on top of the Taurus II first would actually buy you an increased payload.  More versatility to be sure, with the multiple ignitions, but less impulse.

  --N

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #352 on: 04/01/2010 07:43 pm »
So what impact will opening up the Virginia coast to oil drilling have on Taurus/Wallops operations?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100331/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_drilling

The Daily Press of Hampton Roads, Virginia carried a news article this morning at http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_offshore-drilling_0401apr01,0,2214700.story.

The bigger issue is the NAvy opposition, the DoD practically fuels the Hampton Roads area so anything that the Navy desires is usually held to.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #353 on: 04/02/2010 12:39 am »
A question that is a little of topic, but when you have to evac and oil rig for a launch who pays for it? The oil company or the launch customer? Will VA drilling have an impact on Orbital's launch prices?
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Offline robertross

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #354 on: 04/02/2010 03:55 am »
A question that is a little of topic, but when you have to evac and oil rig for a launch who pays for it? The oil company or the launch customer? Will VA drilling have an impact on Orbital's launch prices?

Owners of the well. No different than an approaching storm that falls outside their safety limits. Lost production can run from the $100ks into the millions. That's life. Oil/gas isn't going anywhere.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2010 03:55 am by robertross »

Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #355 on: 04/02/2010 02:02 pm »
A question that is a little of topic, but when you have to evac and oil rig for a launch who pays for it? The oil company or the launch customer? Will VA drilling have an impact on Orbital's launch prices?

My understanding (warning: this statement may contains some hearsay) is that the major concern with the oil exploration off WFF is not Minotaur/Taurus II overflight risk/first stage impact (Pc very low given the expected density of populated platforms and first stages impact way beyond the approved exploration zone) but the literally hundreds of smaller suborbital rockets per year that NASA and others launch from WFF that NORMALLY splash down within the oil exploration area.  Pc rises up significantly under these conditions...

Finally, note that manned platforms are usually needed only during the exploraiton phase.  Once properly capped and plumbed, oil production is usually entirely underwater (does it sould like I just finished reading "The History of Oilfied Diving"?  I'm also a - wanabee - technical diver, and 90% of all major diving breakthroughs were driven by oil exploration).

IMHO environmental concerns are way, way more important than impact to orbital (with a lowercase o) launch from WFF.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2010 02:24 pm by antonioe »
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Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #356 on: 04/02/2010 02:09 pm »
I don't think that just popping a Delta-K stage on top of the Taurus II first would actually buy you an increased payload.  More versatility to be sure, with the multiple ignitions, but less impulse.

  --N

You are correct; to come close to exceeding Castor-30 performance you have to almost double the stage fuel load (it's not just a matter of total impulse - thrust level makes the AJ-10 based stage much less DV-efficient so you actually need MORE total impulse than the Castor 30 to simply match the C-30 performance).

The problem with that is not as much bigger tanks, but that you also double the burn time.  Being ablatively cooled, the AJ-10 would have to be modified and re-certified (with appropriate testing) for the much extended burn time.  But even if the ablative material could be modified to handle this extended burn time, there is no guarantee that the unit itself could take the extended soakback thermal load.  It was never designed for such a long burn duration.

Believe me, we looked into it!
« Last Edit: 04/02/2010 02:16 pm by antonioe »
ARS LONGA, VITA BREVIS...

Offline antonioe

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #357 on: 04/02/2010 02:14 pm »
Antonioe, Every time you mention the Wallops soil I keep thinking about a  mid 80's mag article that had a picture of a pile coming back up in a parking lot right next to the pile driver...

Ooops!... I'd love to get my hands on that picture.

As I may have mentioned early, in some cases they had to go down to 150 feet before they hit suitable load-bearing strata.  The way they do it is they "splice" three 50-foot sections as they drive each section in.  I've been told (but not seen it myself) that in these cases, the first 50 ft section could almost be driven down with your thumb... ::)
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Offline just-nick

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #358 on: 04/02/2010 02:52 pm »
I don't think that just popping a Delta-K stage on top of the Taurus II first would actually buy you an increased payload.  More versatility to be sure, with the multiple ignitions, but less impulse.

  --N

You are correct; to come close to exceeding Castor-30 performance you have to almost double the stage fuel load (it's not just a matter of total impulse - thrust level makes the AJ-10 based stage much less DV-efficient so you actually need MORE total impulse than the Castor 30 to simply match the C-30 performance).

The problem with that is not as much bigger tanks, but that you also double the burn time.  Being ablatively cooled, the AJ-10 would have to be modified and re-certified (with appropriate testing) for the much extended burn time.  But even if the ablative material could be modified to handle this extended burn time, there is no guarantee that the unit itself could take the extended soakback thermal load.  It was never designed for such a long burn duration.

Believe me, we looked into it!
Thanks, Antonioe.  That's the nice thing about fast burning motors, I guess: the low gravity losses.

You could go Transtage on this I guess, and double up the AJ10's.

What's the latest word you can share on the enhanced 2nd stage?  Based on this forum, it seems be the iPad of the spaceflight world, at least as far as speculation goes.

  --N

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Taurus II Development News
« Reply #359 on: 04/02/2010 02:53 pm »
All I remember is it was in a civil engineering mag. and the actual work site was somewhere in the Netherlands. Wish I could help you more. If you have access to a good library and lots of time I am sure you could dig it up.
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