Author Topic: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion  (Read 355163 times)

Offline USFdon

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #540 on: 06/18/2013 05:51 am »


That is one good looking engine

Offline renclod

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #541 on: 06/18/2013 09:07 pm »
Oh cool !



« Last Edit: 06/18/2013 09:09 pm by renclod »

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #542 on: 06/18/2013 09:26 pm »
Nice!

Offline renclod

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #543 on: 06/18/2013 09:45 pm »

Offline Lobo

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #544 on: 06/18/2013 10:50 pm »
How much of the work done on J2X would be applicable to RS-25E?

If a lot, then maybe this work is more of "placeholder" work until RS-25E is needed.  And the money spent here is money that won't need to be spent developing RS-25E.

If not much, then this seems like a bit of a dead end of NASA goes with the DUUS for SLS.


Offline a_langwich

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #545 on: 06/18/2013 11:50 pm »
How much of the work done on J2X would be applicable to RS-25E?

If a lot, then maybe this work is more of "placeholder" work until RS-25E is needed.  And the money spent here is money that won't need to be spent developing RS-25E.

If not much, then this seems like a bit of a dead end of NASA goes with the DUUS for SLS.



Here's my understanding (I asked William Greene this, but any mischaracterizations or inaccuracies are probably my fault). 
1)  The personnel, at NASA and PWR (just Rocketdyne now?) and Stennis, will be largely the same ones working on RS-25.  Getting the personnel up (or back up) to speed is significant. 
2)  J-2X is a much simpler starting point.  It is also hydrolox, but only GG, not closed loop control, and so on.  That makes it a nice way to fiddle with combustion chamber, turbopumps, simple powerpack and combustion stability, without changes in those parts feeding back to all the rest of the engine. 
3)  The J-2X was already well underway at the end of CxP; the brouhaha with Congress made it necessary to continue, and in fact (as NK-33 shows) it takes a very long time indeed in the rocket industry to say a competent engine design was wasted effort.

EDIT:  FYI, the previous post on the J-2X blog mentioned adapting the controller they designed for the J-2X to use for the RS-25. 

Link:  http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/J2X/posts/post_1369837986140.html

Like #2 above, the RS-25 controller will be much more complex, since it manages a range of things under closed-loop control.  But large blocks of controller code can be moved over, and the more modern controller hardware can be used.
« Last Edit: 06/19/2013 12:30 am by a_langwich »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #547 on: 06/20/2013 12:02 am »
Another short article on the recent test firing:

NASA Initiates Critical J-2X Rocket Engine Test Series
By Megan Davidson, Marshall Star June 19, 2013

A 60-second test fire of NASA’s new J-2X rocket engine June 14kicked off a series of six scheduled tests under simulated flight conditions.  J-2X will power the upper stage of NASA’s 130-metric-ton Space Launch System (SLS) -- a new heavy-lift rocket capable of missions beyond low-Earth orbit. J-2X engine No. 10002 will remain on the A-1 test stand at NASA’s Stennis Space Center for all six tests. Engineers will evaluate the engine’s gimbaling, or pivoting, to see that it moves to ensure the rocket will fly on its proper trajectory, just as it is designed to do during an actual flight. When the tests conclude later this summer, the engine will have been fired at full power and for the total time it would operate during an actual flight.

“This will be a thrilling test series,” said Tom Byrd, J-2X engine lead in the SLS Liquid Engines Office at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center. “We will see our engine parts flex as designed during gimballing.  We also will collect much-needed data about loads, or stresses, as the engine gimbals.” Loads tests mimic stresses, like pressure, that the engine may encounter during its mission.

“These are our only open-atmosphere tests,” added Byrd, “which means J-2X will show its bright flame, intense heat and, of course, the incredible sound that makes rocket engine testing so exciting.”

Data will be collected on engine performance throughout the test firings. Data also will be obtained on the performance of Stennis’ A-1 test stand for future testing. Following gimbal testing, the stand will be outfitted for RS-25 engines -- the former space shuttle main engines -- which will be used to power the core stage of the SLS. RS-25 testing is scheduled to begin on the A-1 stand in 2014.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/pdf/756385main_star130619.pdf
« Last Edit: 06/20/2013 12:04 am by AnalogMan »

Offline Lobo

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #548 on: 06/20/2013 12:29 am »
William Greene's latest post: http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/J2X/posts/post_1371567316576.html

Interesting.  It actually does sound like a lot of the "infrastructure" set up done for J2X will be directly applicable as in facilities, software/controllers, and personnel.  Maybe not as much "hardware", but if you have an auto plant set up to make Ford F150's, but decide you want to make Ford F250's instead after it's built, much of the work for that will already be done for the F150 plant, and it just needs modifications to make the F250.  It's not liket he F250 plant would be built from scratch while the brand new F150 plant just sat next to it and rotted.  Sometimes J2X and RS-25E seem like it will be the latter.

Interesting in that, sounds like they are working on an engine controller that will work on any engine, past, present, or future.  I could see that being handy if SLS were to go with F-1B boosters.  It might transfer over to RS-68 as well, to keep the cost down a bit by having one universally compatable controller.  If I am reading that right anyway.

Maybe we should be calling this the "RSJ-25XE" project, so that it's more obviously that work and money spent on what could very well be a dead-end engine in the J2X will be utilized to build the RS-25E later.  So it doesn't seem like such a waste...as it can seem right now.

No matter how pretty the engine is.  :-)


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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #549 on: 06/20/2013 12:41 am »
William Greene's latest post: http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/J2X/posts/post_1371567316576.html

[...]
Interesting in that, sounds like they are working on an engine controller that will work on any engine, past, present, or future.  I could see that being handy if SLS were to go with F-1B boosters.  It might transfer over to RS-68 as well, to keep the cost down a bit by having one universally compatable controller.  If I am reading that right anyway.


Yes, the controller may be useful for other engines - see this post of a short NASA article in the SLS thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26853.msg969747#msg969747

Offline Lobo

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #550 on: 06/20/2013 05:24 pm »
William Greene's latest post: http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/J2X/posts/post_1371567316576.html

[...]
Interesting in that, sounds like they are working on an engine controller that will work on any engine, past, present, or future.  I could see that being handy if SLS were to go with F-1B boosters.  It might transfer over to RS-68 as well, to keep the cost down a bit by having one universally compatable controller.  If I am reading that right anyway.


Yes, the controller may be useful for other engines - see this post of a short NASA article in the SLS thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26853.msg969747#msg969747

Cool.  Thanks for that.

Other than the controller, I wonder how much actual hardware development will be applicable to RS-25E?
Obviously putting together a team that can develop a hydrolox engine will have been done.  And I'd assume if J2X doesn't go into production for a J2X upper stage for SLS, that "production space" would be used for RS-25E.  With much of the fabrication machinery just needing to be adjusted to produce hardware for RS-25E from J2S?

Will any of the existing RS-68 production space/equipment/personnel be applicable to RS-25E as well?

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #551 on: 07/17/2013 02:14 am »
J-2X Lights Up the Night

Published on Jul 16, 2013
J-2X engine No. 10002 is quite a sight to see as it tests at night on June 26 on the A-1 Test Stand at NASA's Stennis Space Center in south Mississippi. (NASA/SSC)

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #552 on: 07/17/2013 09:18 am »
As an accompaniment to the above video, William D Greene has also posted his latest blog giving his first-hand experiences of witnessing large engine tests.  Brilliantly written, worth reading!

http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2013/07/16/j-2x-progress-shaking-up-the-night/

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #553 on: 07/17/2013 11:49 am »
As an accompaniment to the above video, William D Greene has also posted his latest blog giving his first-hand experiences of witnessing large engine tests.  Brilliantly written, worth reading!

http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2013/07/16/j-2x-progress-shaking-up-the-night/

Is anyone else having problems with the RSS feed for this blog?

Unfortunately, this coincides with both the transition of this blog to the new NASA look, and the death of Google Reader (so now I'm using Feedly).

The transition to Feedly carried across saved posts, but has not picked up this new blog item.

I can't find an RSS subscription link on the blog page, so I'm wondering if NASA have given up on providing RSS feeds for this?

cheers, Martin

Online AnalogMan

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #554 on: 07/17/2013 12:55 pm »
As an accompaniment to the above video, William D Greene has also posted his latest blog giving his first-hand experiences of witnessing large engine tests.  Brilliantly written, worth reading!

http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2013/07/16/j-2x-progress-shaking-up-the-night/

Is anyone else having problems with the RSS feed for this blog?

Unfortunately, this coincides with both the transition of this blog to the new NASA look, and the death of Google Reader (so now I'm using Feedly).

The transition to Feedly carried across saved posts, but has not picked up this new blog item.

I can't find an RSS subscription link on the blog page, so I'm wondering if NASA have given up on providing RSS feeds for this?

cheers, Martin

With the recent update and rearrangement of NASA web sites I've also found quite a few of my favorite links no longer work and I've had to search out the replacements.

For the J-2X blog try this link:
http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/feed/

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #555 on: 07/19/2013 07:33 am »
As an accompaniment to the above video, William D Greene has also posted his latest blog giving his first-hand experiences of witnessing large engine tests.  Brilliantly written, worth reading!

http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/2013/07/16/j-2x-progress-shaking-up-the-night/

Is anyone else having problems with the RSS feed for this blog?

Unfortunately, this coincides with both the transition of this blog to the new NASA look, and the death of Google Reader (so now I'm using Feedly).

The transition to Feedly carried across saved posts, but has not picked up this new blog item.

I can't find an RSS subscription link on the blog page, so I'm wondering if NASA have given up on providing RSS feeds for this?

cheers, Martin

With the recent update and rearrangement of NASA web sites I've also found quite a few of my favorite links no longer work and I've had to search out the replacements.

For the J-2X blog try this link:
http://blogs.nasa.gov/J2X/feed/

That looks to be working - fab, thanks.

Looks like I'm the second person on Feedly to subscribe to that - out of 12m+ users on that service.

cheers, Martin

Offline Downix

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #556 on: 07/21/2013 10:20 pm »

Cool.  Thanks for that.

Other than the controller, I wonder how much actual hardware development will be applicable to RS-25E?
Obviously putting together a team that can develop a hydrolox engine will have been done.  And I'd assume if J2X doesn't go into production for a J2X upper stage for SLS, that "production space" would be used for RS-25E.  With much of the fabrication machinery just needing to be adjusted to produce hardware for RS-25E from J2S?

Will any of the existing RS-68 production space/equipment/personnel be applicable to RS-25E as well?
The same tools, fabrication, and even personnel will be used for the RS-68A, RS-25E, J-2X and RL-10C. Modern machine shop tools are computer controlled, so the same tool which makes parts for one will be easily adapted to work on another. Even the F-1B will take advantage of this modern fabrication technology.

The rules of the game have changed my friend. Now, through modern fabrication methods such as 3D printers and CNC, you no longer have to swap a factory around to change the production. You can have both being made at the same time at different points of the assembly chain, in this case.
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Offline newpylong

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #557 on: 07/25/2013 02:40 am »
The MB60 thread brought me back to this. Shoot me for being late to the game on this question which I am sure has been covered extensively... at this stage in the game, what is the purpose of the J2-X? Are we reasonably sure it won't see the light of day for quite some time, as the favored engine at this point is of the RL10/60 class?

If Ares V was going to have such high booster and first stage performance as SLS, why was it even considered to begin with? Just for commonality as it was needed for Ares I?

Is development continuing to fulfill the CxP contract with Rocketdyne and to keep the Liquid Propulsion team on the ball prior to transition to RS-25?

Thanks
« Last Edit: 07/25/2013 02:40 am by newpylong »

Offline Khadgars

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #558 on: 07/25/2013 04:20 am »
The MB60 thread brought me back to this. Shoot me for being late to the game on this question which I am sure has been covered extensively... at this stage in the game, what is the purpose of the J2-X? Are we reasonably sure it won't see the light of day for quite some time, as the favored engine at this point is of the RL10/60 class?

If Ares V was going to have such high booster and first stage performance as SLS, why was it even considered to begin with? Just for commonality as it was needed for Ares I?

Is development continuing to fulfill the CxP contract with Rocketdyne and to keep the Liquid Propulsion team on the ball prior to transition to RS-25?

Thanks

This may answer your question

"But here are the neato things that we’ll be able to do: We can use almost all of the work now completed on the J-2X engine controller hardware to inform the new RS-25 controller and we can use the exact same basic software algorithms from the SSME.  Because the RS-25 has a different control scheme from the J-2X, we cannot use the exact controller unit design from J-2X, but we can use a lot of what we’ve learned over the past few years.  And, because we can directly port over the basic control algorithms, we don’t have to re-validate these vital pieces from the ground up.  We just have to validate their operation within the new controller.  That’s a huge savings."
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Offline Lobo

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Re: J-2X Upper Stage Engine Updates and Discussion
« Reply #559 on: 07/25/2013 04:24 am »

Cool.  Thanks for that.

Other than the controller, I wonder how much actual hardware development will be applicable to RS-25E?
Obviously putting together a team that can develop a hydrolox engine will have been done.  And I'd assume if J2X doesn't go into production for a J2X upper stage for SLS, that "production space" would be used for RS-25E.  With much of the fabrication machinery just needing to be adjusted to produce hardware for RS-25E from J2S?

Will any of the existing RS-68 production space/equipment/personnel be applicable to RS-25E as well?
The same tools, fabrication, and even personnel will be used for the RS-68A, RS-25E, J-2X and RL-10C. Modern machine shop tools are computer controlled, so the same tool which makes parts for one will be easily adapted to work on another. Even the F-1B will take advantage of this modern fabrication technology.

The rules of the game have changed my friend. Now, through modern fabrication methods such as 3D printers and CNC, you no longer have to swap a factory around to change the production. You can have both being made at the same time at different points of the assembly chain, in this case.

Cool.  I sure hope so.  If J2X doesn't get used for SLS (hopefully RL-60 or MB-60 gets used on the DUUS) then I'd just like to see at least some...preferably most...of that investment leveraged into an engine that will be used.


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