Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5

[Vettedrmr]

The Air Force is talking about separate computer for weapons controls from flight computers because of problems with the F-35.

F-16, F-22, and F-35 (the three development programs I worked on) all had separate flight control and avionics (including fire control) computers.  Not even the same architecture.

[Jim]

The old bait and switch?

Just stop it.  Again, you are seeing things that aren't there.

[Jim]

Starlink and Dragon distort the numbers.

Thank goodness. Keep up the distortion, SpaceX!

Amazon’s constellation will distort the numbers too?  I don’t understand the distortion logic.

Starlink and Dragon are internal programs.

[Jim]

If my understanding is correct, then with respect to the specific point being discussed here (horizontal versus vertical integration), F9 is currently launching more US missions than all other rockets combined, which means that more payloads are being launched using horizontal integration than vertical integration.

Starlink and Dragon distort the numbers.

This *might* have some kind of relevance if the discussion were about the elasticity of comsat market demand, but I'm puzzled how it has any relevance to Falcon 9's manifest. The rockets don't care what the payloads are. And the payloads in question are all genuine space hardware genuinely going to orbit.

They are SpaceX internal designs and just one manufacturer.  They are not indicative of the rest of the spacecraft manufacturers.

[DanClemmensen]

Starlink and Dragon distort the numbers.

Thank goodness. Keep up the distortion, SpaceX!

Amazon’s constellation will distort the numbers too?  I don’t understand the distortion logic.

Starlink and Dragon are internal programs.

I agree that Starlink is an internal program, and it distorts the numbers not only directly but also because SpaceX uses Starlink to fill in the schedule gaps, so the other customers have a good choice of launch dates.

I disagree that Dragon is in the same category. The main customer for both Cargo Dragon and Crew Dragon is NASA, and the CRS-2 and CCP services would need to be launched by someone using some spacecraft and launcher even if SpaceX did not exist. Non-NASA Dragon missions are somewhere in between, but there have been only two of them so far.

Whether we count Dragon as "normal" payloads does not affect your argument much since there are currently only a few per year, while Starlink uses half the launches.

For purposes of comparing horizontal to vertical stacking, perhaps we should count types of payloads instead of counting payloads. All starlinks are one type, all Crew Dragon are one type, all transporters are one type, etc. Using this approach, we still have quite a few unique payload types that stack horizontally.

None of this addresses the original point: How much additional difficulty (schedule, cost, risk), if any, would there be to stack Starliner horizontally on an F9?

[Surfdaddy]

I notice that with today's rollout of Starliner, there is very little time in the humid environment before launch. Good call, given the past history with the valves. They obviously don't want outside humidity exposure for very long.

[Jim]

I disagree that Dragon is in the same category. The main customer for both Cargo Dragon and Crew Dragon is NASA, and the CRS-2 and CCP services would need to be launched by someone using some spacecraft and launcher even if SpaceX did not exist. Non-NASA Dragon missions are somewhere in between, but there have been only two of them so far.

It is in the same category because it is the manufacturer that matters and not the user when it comes to horizontal or vertical integration. 

[Jim]

I notice that with today's rollout of Starliner, there is very little time in the humid environment before launch. Good call, given the past history with the valves. They obviously don't want outside humidity exposure for very long.

Not true.  The VIF is not climate controlled. 

[AstroWare]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

[Jim]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

Not needed.

[AstroWare]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

Not needed.

If they thought it was needed they would have done it... Obviously. I'm not sure that's insightful. Lol let me try again

Why (did Boeing determine that) no Wet dress rehearsal (needed) this time?

[SoftwareDude]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

Not needed.

If they thought it was needed they would have done it... Obviously. I'm not sure that's insightful. Lol let me try again

Why (did Boeing determine that) no Wet dress rehearsal (needed) this time?

The bigger question: is Boeing ready for what comes next if OFT-2 is a success?  The crew manifest hasn't been finalized yet.

[Surfdaddy]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

Not needed.

If they thought it was needed they would have done it... Obviously. I'm not sure that's insightful. Lol let me try again

Why (did Boeing determine that) no Wet dress rehearsal (needed) this time?

Well, last time all of the flaws became apparent during the actual mission, so....

[Chris Bergin]

We'll start a new thread soon as it needs it and it's about to launch

[kdhilliard]

... is Boeing ready for what comes next if OFT-2 is a success?  The crew manifest hasn't been finalized yet.

At a recent presser Kathy Lueders said NASA still hasn't decided if they will add a third crew member for CTF.

But I don't see how this affects Boeing much.  They will presumably fly with all four seats in place and with an ECLSS capable of supporting a crew of 4.  The only question is how many seats will be empty and how much cargo will be onboard.  (I wonder what the lead-time for a Boeing IVA suit is.  That would presumably pace NASA's decision.)

[Jim]

Well, last time all of the flaws became apparent during the actual mission, so....

WDR is for the launch vehicle and not the spacecraft

[whitelancer64]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

They did a full mission dry dress rehearsal in the VIF.

ULA made wet dress rehearsals optional for the Atlas V in 2012. They're only done at the customer's discretion.

[Jim]

Why is there no Wet dress rehearsal this time? I remember OFT-1 did one... Or is there one planned for today?

Not needed.

If they thought it was needed they would have done it... Obviously. I'm not sure that's insightful. Lol let me try again

Why (did Boeing determine that) no Wet dress rehearsal (needed) this time?

It doesn't exercise the spacecraft and it is only to reduce a schedule risk.

Boeing just likely wanted to reduce exposure.

[SoftwareDude]

... is Boeing ready for what comes next if OFT-2 is a success?  The crew manifest hasn't been finalized yet.

At a recent presser Kathy Lueders said NASA still hasn't decided if they will add a third crew member for CTF.

But I don't see how this affects Boeing much.  They will presumably fly with all four seats in place and with an ECLSS capable of supporting a crew of 4.  The only question is how many seats will be empty and how much cargo will be onboard.  (I wonder what the lead-time for a Boeing IVA suit is.  That would presumably pace NASA's decision.)

What we see SpaceX do on each crewed launch does not happen by accident.
We learned at the news conference Boeing is going open the Starliner door on the pad and then close it and seal it again. Not an exact quote but something like, "Our guys will go up there and open the door."
Is Boeing flight operations ready?  I noticed Boeing has an opening for a position in the Commercial Crew Program within Space & Launch, Job ID 00000315362, as Flight Operations Manager of Crewed Flight , in Titusville (see below). There are no other openings for crewed launch.  Notice the date posted is 5/12/2022. Yeah, better get started, oh wait first must hire the manager. Check out the job description. It looks like Boeing has done nothing to get ready for crewed flight operations.

Job ID 00000315362
Date posted 05/12/2022
Location Titusville, Florida
Company

Job Description

At Boeing, we innovate and collaborate to make the world a better place. From the seabed to outer space, you can contribute to work that matters with a company where diversity, equity and inclusion are shared values. We’re committed to fostering an environment for every teammate that’s welcoming, respectful and inclusive, with great opportunity for professional growth. Find your future with us.

The Commercial Crew Program within Space & Launch is seeking a Flight Management and Integration First Line Manager (Level K) based at Kennedy Space Center, FL.

The successful candidate will support the Mission Integration & Operations IPT with Mission Integration, Mission Support Room (MSR) development, personnel training & certification. This position will be leading and supporting a multi-skill team that provides for all activities associated with the conduct of the mission, including, but not limited to site surveys, instrumentation, set-up, check-out, applicable reviews and briefings, conduct of the test, data analysis and data reduction and test reports.  The manager provides for the identification of test article configurations to satisfy test requirements including the definition of unique design and verification requirements as necessary for the mission.  This position entails supporting a team in the actual creation of the solutions by eliminating obstacles and facilitating collaboration across teams to engage a diverse pool of experts to best resolve technical and business issues. The position consists of understanding the operational impact of solutions provided by Boeing and connecting the Boeing team with the Customers' situational requirements. Some travel will be required to integrate with customers, suppliers, and other organizations.

Primary Responsibilities​

Develop and release of Flight Test unique documentation including test definition (TDD), requirements (TRD), procedures and report.

Coordinate Flight Test unique milestone reviews.

Coordinate Test as You Operate (TAYO) exception approval.

End-to-End Test and CEIT requirements development and planning.

Staff Test Director console as member of Mission Support Team.

Integration and delivery of products for DRD 104, 109 and Flight Test Readiness Review (FTRR).

Lead Flight Execution Team for Test Flights and PCMs, providing day to day decisions and ensuring issue resolution to maintain progress to plan per Flight Production Schedule.

Mission and cargo requirements integration, documentation (MRD) and reviews.

Coordinate agendas for SMMT meetings.

Integrate plans and products for and execution of PCM payment Milestones Reviews.

Update, maintain and release contract deliverables.

Mission Support Room management including BMCC/MSR integration and operation, Mission Support Team training & certification, Sim/Rehearsal planning & execution.

Develop and executes project and process plans, implements policies and procedures and sets operational goals.

Work with functional and business unit management to acquire resources for projects and processes, provide technical management of suppliers and lead process improvements.

Implement plans to ensure business, technical and customer requirements are achieved.

Assign authority and responsibilities to employees to execute the plan.

Reviews plans' execution, makes appropriate adjustments, and resolve issues.

Monitor appropriate metrics to ensure performance to plan.

Develop workgroup, project or operational goals, objectives and related metrics to ensure alignment with Company vision/strategy.

Generate requirements and analyze technical approach, statement of work, labor and deliverables for workgroup, projects or process to ensure a quality product is received.

Interface directly with external customers and suppliers to clarify technical requirements and issues.

Develop and maintain relationships and partnerships with customers, stakeholders, peers, partners and direct reports.

Provide oversight and approval of technical approaches, products and processes.

Manage, develop and motivate employees.

Coach, counsel, mentor and provide developmental opportunities and job assignments to enhance employee performance and expand capabilities.

Provide on-going developmental feedback.

Recognize contributions of individuals and teams to improve employee satisfaction and retain a skilled and motivated workforce.

Convey organizational messages to facilitate the accomplishment of workgroup, project or process goals.

Proactively communicate with employees, peers and customers. Keep others informed by communicating project status, conducting and participating in team meetings, providing presentations and listening to employee concerns and suggestions.

Enforce company rules and policies regarding ethical behavior, safety, security, use of company property, time charging, etc.
...

[psionedge]

Just because there's a job req out there doesn't mean the job isn't being done now. People are in acting roles all the time when people retire or get promoted and they haven't found a permanent replacement immediately.