Author Topic: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5  (Read 636009 times)

Offline saturnsky

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1600 on: 05/12/2022 06:29 pm »
So lots of questioning of Boeing and its safety practices, probably good questions..But,, what about Space X building a Pad for an unproven, huge vehicle, that could at best be nothing more then a flying bomb, 300 yards from 39A, come on, lets hope OFT-2 is a success for Starliner and Boeing.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1601 on: 05/12/2022 07:04 pm »
<snip>
Some of 9 Atlases reserved for Amazon could be made available. Amazon doesn't care if their satellites fly on Atlas or Vulcan.
<snip>
Actually. Amazon do care. There is no way Amazon will relinquished the Atlas V needed for their constellation deployment, IMO.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1602 on: 05/12/2022 07:20 pm »

Some of 9 Atlases reserved for Amazon could be made available. Amazon doesn't care if their satellites fly on Atlas or Vulcan.  Really comes down to how quickly ULA can make replacement Vulcans available to Amazon.

Its good bet NASA has booked some Atlases for their planetary missions. Not so easy to switch LVs around in these cases but its a possibility. 

See:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlas_launches_(2020%E2%80%932029)#Future_launches
I know that Wikipedia is not authoritative, but if it's wrong, please help fix it if you can.
The  tables list 22 of the remaining 24 Atlas V launches. NASA has not directly booked any of them, but Boeing has booked six of them: OFT-2, CFT, and Starliners 1 through 4. Starliners 5 and 6 are not listed.  You might want to take a look at the other flights to see who you think might be willing to relinquish an Atlas V. Of course, Boeing might have reserved the two unlisted rockets.

Offline Josh_from_Canada

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1603 on: 05/12/2022 07:37 pm »
Out of the remaining 24 Atlas V launches, 8 are for Starliner, 9 are for Kuiper, 4 are for the DoD, 1 is for NASA LSP, 1 is for ViaSat, and 1 is for SES
Launches Seen: Atlas V OA-7, Falcon 9 Starlink 6-4, Falcon 9 CRS-28,

Offline abaddon

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1604 on: 05/12/2022 07:44 pm »
So lots of questioning of Boeing and its safety practices, probably good questions..But,, what about Space X building a Pad for an unproven, huge vehicle, that could at best be nothing more then a flying bomb, 300 yards from 39A, come on,
Whataboutism has no place here.  Feel free to air concerns about SpaceX 39A plans for Starship in the appropriate threads.
Quote
lets hope OFT-2 is a success for Starliner and Boeing.
That we can all agree on.


Offline deadman1204

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1605 on: 05/12/2022 08:03 pm »
Some of 9 Atlases reserved for Amazon could be made available. Amazon doesn't care if their satellites fly on Atlas or Vulcan.  Really comes down to how quickly ULA can make replacement Vulcans available to Amazon.


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This handwaving makes no sense. Amazon cares incredibly much. They have a timeline to get 50% of Kuiper deployed. They do not have extra years to wait. Also, delays could more money lost than the rocket costs (not competing with starlink).

Amazon gains NOTHING by giving away the atlas v launches, but it costs them alot of time (thus money). As Amazon has clearly demonstrated over the years, they would burn down orphanages for extra profit.

Offline Roy_H

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1606 on: 05/13/2022 04:18 am »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other. So does the ISS have specialized ports one for Starliner and the other for Dragon?
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1607 on: 05/13/2022 05:00 am »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other. So does the ISS have specialized ports one for Starliner and the other for Dragon?

No, the ports are not specialized. Either vehicle can dock to either port.
JRF

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1608 on: 05/13/2022 05:00 am »
EXCLUSIVE Boeing clashes with key supplier ahead of Starliner spacecraft launch

Quote from: reuters.com
Boeing in a statement provided by a spokesperson to Reuters acknowledged for the first time that it ultimately intends to redesign Starliner's valve system to prevent a repeat of the issue that forced last year's test-flight postponement. The Boeing statement said that "we are working on short- and long-term design changes to the valves."

<snip>

A team of Boeing and NASA engineers is in general agreement that the cause of the stuck valves involves a chemical reaction between propellant, aluminum materials and the intrusion of moisture from Starliner's humid Florida launch site.

Aerojet engineers and lawyers see it differently, blaming a cleaning chemical that Boeing has used in ground tests, two of the sources said.

There're more revelations in this article, yikes..

This CNN article is more explanative.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/11/tech/boeing-supplier-clash-starliner/index.html

NASA believes Boeing is correct here over Aerojet. It also quotes "someone on the project" who says that Aerojet would never admit fault because they would have to pay for the redesign. Given, the same could be said of Boeing. So the context that this is really about financial liability.

Emphasis mine.

That is understandable. If Aerojet were to admit that any fault in the design of the valves was their fault, than there would be "hell to pay", in the sense that they could potentially get into legal and financial trouble with several of their other clients.
You see, those valves are not just used in Starliner, but in several other spacecraft as well (that is what Jim told us some time ago in one of his more informative posts).
The difference being that the valves in those cases are used in spacecraft that sit under an air-conditioned fairing (unlike Starliner).

So yeah... Aerojet admitting that they "screwed up" is not gonna happen anytime soon. Unless Boeing sues them and provides rock-hard evidence in court. Which I don't think will happen. We'll probably hear about some settlement about a year from now.


Edit: reply moved from Updates to Discussion thread.

There is a distinct possibility Aerojet did think those valves could do 60 days un-air-conditioned. The lure of flight heritage valves being so strong though, overconfidence on perhaps (much) older flawed tests may have lead then astray? Unless there was a miscommunication on requirements internally...

Offline Hamish.Student

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1609 on: 05/13/2022 07:05 am »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other.
 
 
For Commercial Crew, the providers are responsible for building their own docking adaptor from the NASA Docking System Standard(NDSS). They are "technically" the same adaptor, just built by different people and as such may have minor design and/or implementation differences.  They should be fully compatible with other adaptors that follow the NDSS. I also believe NDSS is compatible with the International Docking System Standard. 
 
Quote
So does the ISS have specialized ports one for Starliner and the other for Dragon?
 
 
No, The two International Docking Adaptors on the ISS are the same design, and again built to NDSS spec. Anything compatible with NDSS should be able to use the two IDA's on the ISS.
« Last Edit: 05/13/2022 07:06 am by Hamish.Student »

Offline tbellman

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1610 on: 05/13/2022 09:29 am »
For Commercial Crew, the providers are responsible for building their own docking adaptor from the NASA Docking System Standard(NDSS). They are "technically" the same adaptor, just built by different people and as such may have minor design and/or implementation differences.  They should be fully compatible with other adaptors that follow the NDSS. I also believe NDSS is compatible with the International Docking System Standard. 

My understanding is that the standard is IDSS, the International Docking System Standard, and NDS, the NASA Docking System, is "just" an implementation of that standard.  So the requirement was to be compatible with IDSS, not specifically with NDS.

Of course, since the only IDSS-compatible ports on ISS are the two NDS ports provided by NASA, in practice the Commercial Crew providers would need to make sure that they were actually compatible with NDS, even if it had turned out that NDS didn't follow IDSS in every detail...  (There's a difference between being supposed to follow a standard, and actually doing it.  Sometimes implementors make errors when trying to follow the standard, sometimes the standard itself is ambigous or just plain wrong, and you might not notice that until someone else tries to follow the standard, interprets it differently, and the two implementations turn out to not be compatible.)

I also seem to remember that the Commercial Crew providers had the option of "buying" an NDS ring from NASA, but at least SpaceX chose to not do so, but have their own implementation.  I don't off hand know if Boeing has made their own implementation, or if they bought an NDS from NASA.  (And I might be misremembering this part.)


So does the ISS have specialized ports one for Starliner and the other for Dragon?

As Hamish.Student wrote, no, both the NDS ports on ISS should be able to support both Starliner and Dragon.

However, for the first test flight, there may be limitations in the rendez-vous software of the visiting vehicle, so it is actually only programmed to support flying to one of the ports.  That was at least the case for Boeing's earlier attempts; when OFT-2 was supposed to fly last year, SpaceX Crew-2 moved their Dragon from one port to the other, so Starliner would be able to use the one port it was programmed to arrive at.  (And if the situation had been the reverse, and Starliner had been first, I believe they may would have needed to relocate when SpaceX flew their Demo-1 mission.)

Once they are operational, though, they are supposed to be able to arrive at either port.  (And SpaceX has done this with Dragon 2 several times by now.)

Offline rliebman

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1611 on: 05/13/2022 10:03 am »
i may be wrong, but i recall the Boeing built the adaptor that was installed onto the PMAs.  if wrong, please correct / update.

Offline edzieba

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1612 on: 05/13/2022 11:19 am »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other.
 
 
For Commercial Crew, the providers are responsible for building their own docking adaptor from the NASA Docking System Standard(NDSS). They are "technically" the same adaptor, just built by different people and as such may have minor design and/or implementation differences.  They should be fully compatible with other adaptors that follow the NDSS. I also believe NDS is compatible with the International Docking System Standard. 
NASA offered Boeing-built NDS adapters to both CC providers, for a fee (some hundreds of thousands of dollars per, IIRC) that can been constructed prior to the CC programme starting. Boeing decided to use the Boeing built adapters (surprise), SpaceX decided to develop their own to the NDS standard. Both are NDS/IDS compatible so both can mate to the IDAs.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1613 on: 05/13/2022 02:21 pm »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other.
Warning, this is my understanding based on reading posts on this forum and details may be wrong.
The docking mechanism must adhere to a standard, and Starliner and Crew Dragon do this and can dock at either ISS port. However, they cannot dock to each other. the a port can be either "active", "passive", or both. To dock, one side must be active (or both) and the other passive (or both). Starliner and Crew Dragon are both active-only and therefore cannot dock to each other. Adding the passive hardware adds mass and complexity and there were basically no realistic scenarios where this capability was needed.

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1614 on: 05/13/2022 03:29 pm »
Please excuse this simple question I am sure covered elsewhere. But I was very surprised to read in the main page article that Starliner's docking mechanism is different from Dragon's. I thought they were both the same and could both dock at the same ports on the ISS and even with each other.
 
 
For Commercial Crew, the providers are responsible for building their own docking adaptor from the NASA Docking System Standard(NDSS). They are "technically" the same adaptor, just built by different people and as such may have minor design and/or implementation differences.  They should be fully compatible with other adaptors that follow the NDSS. I also believe NDS is compatible with the International Docking System Standard. 
NASA offered Boeing-built NDS adapters to both CC providers, for a fee (some hundreds of thousands of dollars per, IIRC) that can been constructed prior to the CC programme starting. Boeing decided to use the Boeing built adapters (surprise), SpaceX decided to develop their own to the NDS standard. Both are NDS/IDS compatible so both can mate to the IDAs.

Worth noting that the Boeing team that designed the NDS for NASA was completely firewalled off from the folks who do commercial crew for contractual reasons.

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1615 on: 05/13/2022 04:50 pm »
Sorry, I moved some non updates from updates to discussion thread 4 by mistake. Now corrected. I'm stupid :)
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1616 on: 05/14/2022 06:05 pm »
from the Starliner Master update thread:
https://twitter.com/russianspaceweb/status/1525498815117238274

Quote
Rogozin says that Roskosmos will not put its cosmonauts on Boeing's Starliner spacecraft, even in case of striking a deal with @NASA on crossover flights to #ISS.

In a follow-up tweet Anatoly says no reason has yet been given for this.
The Russians quite reasonably want to have at least one operational flight of the troubled Boeing Starliner completed before considering assigning cosmonauts to Starliner crews.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1617 on: 05/14/2022 08:17 pm »
Safety panel doesn't have lot of confidence in Starliner.  ULA has 8 Atlas reserved for Starliner, should see them through to end of ISS if flown once a year.


https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-safety-panel-dont-rush-to-crewed-test-flight-as-boeing-prepares-oft-2/

Eight Starliners get them to the end of their CCP contract, with no additional flights. One for OFT (this one), one for CFT, and one for each of their six contracted operational CCP flights (Starliner-1 through Starliner-6).  None for any non-CCP missions. If ISS does not last long enough for these six flights, I suppose NASA can fly the remaining flights to other LEO destinations. If Starliner-1 files in 2023, they can fly once a year through 2028.
(moved from the update thread.)

Offline MaxTeranous

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Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1618 on: 05/14/2022 09:03 pm »
Safety panel doesn't have lot of confidence in Starliner.  ULA has 8 Atlas reserved for Starliner, should see them through to end of ISS if flown once a year.


https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-safety-panel-dont-rush-to-crewed-test-flight-as-boeing-prepares-oft-2/

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Depends on how many OFTs they end up needing I suppose

Re: Boeing's Starliner (CST-100) - Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1619 on: 05/15/2022 12:23 am »
Boeing hasn't announced any plans beyond the existing ISS flights, though I assume human-rated Vulcan must be part of Starliners' future. However, Boeing's management plays its cards pretty close to its chest. There doesn't seem to be unwilling to articulate Starliner's future, or explain their vision, even where Vulcan is concerned. Meanwhile, Sierra Space has no such compunction.
Does Starliner have a future? What gives? 
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