Application of Starliner outside of Commercial Crew?

[TrevorMonty]

ISS trips involved an extensive training course. Some rich tourists might be interested in giving up few weeks to train as astronaut but most couldn't spare time. I think there is market for day trips to LEO. How big Boeing or SpaceX will likely find out on next year or two.

 Training may include a couple of suborbital trips in NS or SS2. I'd want to know how I'd react to zeroG before committing $30m to day in space.

[SWGlassPit]

I'd want to know how I'd react to zeroG before committing $30m to day in space.

You can already do that, for around $5,700

[Asteroza]

ISS trips involved an extensive training course. Some rich tourists might be interested in giving up few weeks to train as astronaut but most couldn't spare time. I think there is market for day trips to LEO. How big Boeing or SpaceX will likely find out on next year or two.

Training may include a couple of suborbital trips in NS or SS2. I'd want to know how I'd react to zeroG before committing $30m to day in space.

One day trips are problematic due to weightlessness acclimatization time varying between people. Some people need 3 days. If you are vomiting all day, that kinda spoils things. Not sure how one would predict reactions based on suborbital rides or vomit comet runs.

[tbellman]

One day trips are problematic due to weightlessness acclimatization time varying between people. Some people need 3 days. If you are vomiting all day, that kinda spoils things. Not sure how one would predict reactions based on suborbital rides or vomit comet runs.

Normal medicines against motion sickness are supposed to be pretty good helping against space adaptation syndrome as well.  A problem with those medicines is that you tend to get drowsy, which isn't very good for someone who goes to space to work, but it should be much less of a problem for people who only go as tourists.

[jebbo]

Until it can be launched on Vulcan, anything except the commercial crew ISS expeditions won't happen as they're RD-180 limited (and unlikely to buy more from Russia).

Afterwards, they *could* do orbital tourism stuff similar to Inspiration 4 and the AX1/2/3/4 flights, but it doesn't feel likely to me.

--- Tony

[Zed_Noir]

<snip>
Afterwards, they *could* do orbital tourism stuff similar to Inspiration 4 and the AX1/2/3/4 flights, but it doesn't feel likely to me.
....

Starliner might be able to compete for space tourist flights if they can find a cheaper launcher. It will enhanced their probability of success if they can also get something like the Dragon nose observation hemisphere installed on the Starliner.

[king1999]

<snip>
Afterwards, they *could* do orbital tourism stuff similar to Inspiration 4 and the AX1/2/3/4 flights, but it doesn't feel likely to me.
....

Starliner might be able to compete for space tourist flights if they can find a cheaper launcher. It will enhanced their probability of success if they can also get something like the Dragon nose observation hemisphere installed on the Starliner.

Assuming they can find a launcher comparable to Falcon 9, their spacecraft is still much more expensive to operate. The service module has a lot of hardware, including thrusters, for one time use only.

[Tomness]

<snip>
Afterwards, they *could* do orbital tourism stuff similar to Inspiration 4 and the AX1/2/3/4 flights, but it doesn't feel likely to me.
....

Starliner might be able to compete for space tourist flights if they can find a cheaper launcher. It will enhanced their probability of success if they can also get something like the Dragon nose observation hemisphere installed on the Starliner.

Assuming they can find a launcher comparable to Falcon 9, their spacecraft is still much more expensive to operate. The service module has a lot of hardware, including thrusters, for one time use only.

But their Commercial Only Version can seat 9 people. So with Vulcan or F9 and 9passagers they could be competitive

[joek]

But their Commercial Only Version can seat 9 people. So with Vulcan or F9 and 9passagers they could be competitive

? Per Boeing, max 7, not 9.
edit: p.s. If both are max 7 pax-crew, then advantage would still go to Dragon on per-seat price, all other things equal. Of course, neither has built such a configuration as far as I know, and we don't know details of the margins-constraints for a 7-seat configuration of either (e.g. ECLSS, down-mass limits, etc.).

[RonM]

But their Commercial Only Version can seat 9 people. So with Vulcan or F9 and 9passagers they could be competitive

? Per Boeing, max 7, not 9.
edit: p.s. If both are max 7 pax-crew, then advantage would still go to Dragon on per-seat price, all other things equal. Of course, neither has built such a configuration as far as I know, and we don't know details of the margins-constraints for a 7-seat configuration of either (e.g. ECLSS, down-mass limits, etc.).

Maxed out seven passenger version would not be good for tourists. Not enough room. Now if there was a commercial space station to fly to, such as Axion, then seven passengers makes sense.

[Tomness]

But their Commercial Only Version can seat 9 people. So with Vulcan or F9 and 9passagers they could be competitive

? Per Boeing, max 7, not 9.
edit: p.s. If both are max 7 pax-crew, then advantage would still go to Dragon on per-seat price, all other things equal. Of course, neither has built such a configuration as far as I know, and we don't know details of the margins-constraints for a 7-seat configuration of either (e.g. ECLSS, down-mass limits, etc.).

They had a mock-up seatting they could seat 8 with a pilot elevated to the hatch.

[king1999]

They had a mock-up seatting they could seat 8 with a pilot elevated to the hatch.

First time heard of this, any link/picture/reference? Max 7 was always the public info.

No mention here at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner

[Tomness]

They had a mock-up seatting they could seat 8 with a pilot elevated to the hatch.

First time heard of this, any link/picture/reference? Max 7 was always the public info.

No mention here at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner

Had the time to look it up here
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32438.260

[kdhilliard]

They had a mock-up seatting they could seat 8 with a pilot elevated to the hatch.

First time heard of this, any link/picture/reference? Max 7 was always the public info.

No mention here at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner

Had the time to look it up here
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32438.260

Which post on that page?
This post by jacqmans has an illustration showing six down and one up.
Source: 30 April 2014 Boeing press release: Boeing Showcases Future Commercial Spacecraft Interior

Funny that between the style of seats, treatment of bulkheads, and touchscreen controls, Crew Dragon came out much closer to that render than Starliner did.

[Lemurion]

One thing that concerns me about Starliner for space tourism is the free flight endurance--sixty hours is not a lot of time especially when you compare it to the Inspiration 4 mission's approximately 96 hour duration that's not even using half of Crew Dragon's endurance...

[ncb1397]

One thing that concerns me about Starliner for space tourism is the free flight endurance--sixty hours is not a lot of time especially when you compare it to the Inspiration 4 mission's approximately 96 hour duration that's not even using half of Crew Dragon's endurance...

If you are getting these figures from wikipedia, the sourcing for both is pretty sketchy. Dragon free flight duration links to dragonlab. CST-100 source links to a paper from 2011.

[docmordrid]

If they're only going to have 2 Starliners in rotation, wouldn't flying commercial put their CC program at risk if one were lost?

Crew Dragon is flying 2 but with 3 under construction ( Shotwell, after Crew-1).

https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/08/25/boeing-plans-second-starliner-test-flight-in-december-or-january/

Boeing plans to rotate between two reusable crew modules for all planned Starliner missions. Each flight will use a new service module, which provides propulsion and power generation capacity for the spacecraft.

[abaddon]

That’s always been the plan.  Not sure what it says about the value of the contract that it only funds two capsules.  Not sure who foots the bill if they have to retire (or god forbid) lose one of them.

[woods170]

They had a mock-up seatting they could seat 8 with a pilot elevated to the hatch.

First time heard of this, any link/picture/reference? Max 7 was always the public info.

No mention here at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Starliner

Had the time to look it up here
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32438.260

That shows the 7-person version. Six on the bottom (2 rows: 1 row of 4 seats and 1 row of 2 seats) and 1 seat at the top. Total is 7.

A 9 person version of Starliner was never proposed. Every press-release from Boeing and every other PR piece always mentioned a max number of 7 persons.

[MaxTeranous]

That’s always been the plan.  Not sure what it says about the value of the contract that it only funds two capsules.  Not sure who foots the bill if they have to retire (or god forbid) lose one of them.

Fixed price contract so the risk is on Boeing. Retiring one would be on Boeing. Most likely ways to lose a capsule would be an issue with the capsule itself (in which case Boeing would be using their remaining one for any remaining flights or building another) or with the launch vehicle going badly wrong. In that case I would assume ULA (well, their insurers) would pony up cash to Boeing. Would still leave Boeing with the fact they’re down a capsule mind.

Depends when they lose it too. Having to retire a capsule after flight 4 compared to after OFT2 for example is a huge difference.

Slightly more onto topic, you have to assume if Boeing win some non commercial crew work, they’d build another capsule to support it.