Author Topic: California Secrets - SpaceX F9 v1.1 Cassiope Launch Party Thread  (Read 275737 times)

Offline Jim

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If they are in communication with the stage when it is still high up (i.e. during the 3-engine burn) then it can tell them where it's going, at which point the airplane can position itself very reliably.


A relay aircraft would be in a predetermine standoff orbit that would not repositioned during the Falcon flight.  No need to add complexity and risk with realtime changes
« Last Edit: 08/30/2013 06:18 pm by Jim »

Offline darkenfast

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With apologies to the Mamas and the Papas:

All the hills are brown,
And the fog is grey.
Saw a Delta IV,
It went roaring away.
What I really want to see,
Is Falcon soar today!

California dreamin', on such a summer's DAAAAY!

Well, this IS a party thread, isn't it?
Writer of Book and Lyrics for musicals "SCAR", "Cinderella!", and "Aladdin!". Retired Naval Security Group. "I think SCAR is a winner. Great score, [and] the writing is up there with the very best!"
-- Phil Henderson, Composer of the West End musical "The Far Pavilions".

Offline edkyle99

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I don't know why some are expecting to see a stage sitting itself softly onto the ocean surface during this first flight.  This first flight is only an experiment in engine restarting really.  I would be surprised if the thing survived reentry.  I'm not sure the stage has any directional control, for example, besides Merlin TVC.     
 - Ed Kyle
It has cold gas ACS.
For the first flight?  Do you have a link?

 - Ed Kyle

Offline daveklingler

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This is a new vehicle.  I just want to see it make the right orbit and deliver a non-government payload for money.

Anything else is gravy.

Offline dhHopkins

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Space fan, Lurker, Extremely Infrequent poster here.

The reason I follow and appreciate SpaceX is beacuse in my estimation - they go for it!  They have thrown a lot of seemingly 'Hail Marys' in their history, and have connected for touchdowns on a high percentage of them.  Most impressive among them are all the Falcon 9 and Dragon accomplishments.  They give the impression of a company moving forward, with real hardware flying and succeeding.  Even if this 1.1 first stage tumbles and flies apart - this is still exciting.  Based on their pervious performance, I would not be surprised if they eventually get it right, and land the thing successfully.  I believe one previous post above was correct in that they won't be able to tell if it's worth doing, until you perfect the landing procedure.  Even if it works, how many times will you really be able to fly a stage, etc?  But, I'm with everyone else - can't wait to see video of that stage gracefully slipping into the drink!
David H.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Some people are saying delivering the payload to orbit is the important thing.  Some are saying the water landing is the important thing.

I agree with both.  For the near-to-medium term, the payload delivery is what matters.  It's important that F9v1.1 become a reliable, high-frequency launch vehicle for SpaceX to claim significant market share (or maintain share, if you consider the manifest of future launches to be share).

For the long term, the water landing is the important thing.  Long term, if SpaceX gets a lot of share but doesn't ever manage reusability, it will mean an incremental improvement to space access, but no revolution.  If SpaceX falters in the near term but long term achieves reusability and drastically lowers the cost of access to orbit, it will be revolutionary.

Of course the failure to do the water landing on the first try doesn't mean they won't get it eventually.  But the water landing on the first try would remove a huge amount of the risk that they can make first stage reusability work, which would be enormously exciting.

I'd be excited by either a flawless placement of the payload or a water landing, and even more excited by both.  And a successful second-stage relight and burn-to-depletion would be a nice additional bonus.

Offline AncientU

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Some of you got trolled by someone pretending to be a SpaceX fan. His posts and responses have been removed.

Was that me???
The first ever to get removed from a PARTY thread for being serious?
Sorry, I was at my day job and missed the fun.

To set the record straight, I am a HUGE SpaceX fan, wouldn't knowingly troll anyone or even know what that means, and personally believe that soft-landing a stage (sorry, called it a booster before) will be a potentially historic event.  Such events usually come in modest form -- smoky/noisy auto-mobiles, balsa wood fliers, quirky desk-top 'personal' computers -- and take time to be recognized for their impact.  Hope this is one of them!!!
And that the payload gets delivered (so SpaceX can continue doing this and more).
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline Zed_Noir

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And I hope to God they have a camera or two on that first stage as it approaches those waves.


If they do, they will have an asset out there to pick up the signal since it will be beyond the horizon of VAFB recievers.  And for that matter, I wonder what they will be using for for picking up telemetry?  TDRSS, an ocean going platform or an aerial asset?

Have a wacky idea. Can an expandable tracking camera with radio link be ejected from the F9 core prior to the final burn? The camera's descend retarded with drogue chute. Sort of like an aerial sonobuoy with video.  ;D
 

Offline rcoppola

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I don't know why some are expecting to see a stage sitting itself softly onto the ocean surface during this first flight.  This first flight is only an experiment in engine restarting really.  I would be surprised if the thing survived reentry.  I'm not sure the stage has any directional control, for example, besides Merlin TVC.     
 - Ed Kyle
It has cold gas ACS.
For the first flight?  Do you have a link?

 - Ed Kyle
Every video from each second stage sep event shows the first stage beginning to tumble before reentry. I don't see how they re-light 3 engines to reduce re-entry speeds without having a stable trajectory. So how else would they be able to do this without cold gas ACS to stabilize and get ready for re-light? It seems, but not sure, that the tumble would be of such a nature that TVC would not be ideal or even possible?
« Last Edit: 08/30/2013 10:01 pm by rcoppola »
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Offline douglas100

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Have a wacky idea. Can an expandable tracking camera with radio link be ejected from the F9 core prior to the final burn? The camera's descend retarded with drogue chute. Sort of like an aerial sonobuoy with video.  ;D

That's the way they used to do rocketcams in the old days. That's when cameras used...what was it called again? Ah yes, film.  :)
Douglas Clark

Offline douglas100

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Every video from each second stage sep event shows the first stage beginning to tumble before reentry. I don't see how they re-light 3 engines to reduce re-entry speeds without having a stable trajectory. So how else would they be able to do this without cold gas ACS to stabilize and get ready for re-light? It seems, but not sure, that the tumble would be of such a nature that TVC would not be ideal or even possible?

My bold. I'm assuming you mean attitude here, rather than trajectory. In which case, I agree. They need thrusters stop any tumbling, turn the stage to the correct attitude, stabilize it and settle the propellant before attempting a restart.

Douglas Clark

Offline go4mars

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I think the best way to record it slipping into the drink would be to send out a fleet of pre-programed octocopters.  If you have a projected ellipse of 50 square kilometres, get 50 of them, or less.  One every x area.  $15k for each of those, 15k for the hassellblad hanging off them, they point toward a bright signature above the horizon that isn't the sun, then go back to the unmanned barge they took off from.  Yes, 10 would be $300k.

The guy who bought them then rents them out 5 more times to pay it all off. 
Speaking of which, octocopters are highly underutilized in car commercials and sales videos, movies about environmental awareness, and aerial shots of solar installations across the suburbs and various industrial buildings.  Maybe even unmanned solar panel maintanance checks.  No ladders.  RC if local laws forbid anything cooler.  In for a penny...      Best part about owning them in house: no distracting security/itar issues. 

Peanut Gallery out.
« Last Edit: 08/30/2013 11:34 pm by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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I think the best way to record it slipping into the drink would be to send out a fleet of pre-programed octocopters.  If you have a projected ellipse of 50 square kilometres, get 50 of them, or less.  One every x area.  $15k for each of those, 15k for the hassellblad hanging off them, they point toward a bright signature above the horizon that isn't the sun, then go back to the unmanned barge they took off from.  Yes, 10 would be $300k.

The guy who bought them then rents them out 5 more times to pay it all off. 
Speaking of which, octocopters are highly underutilized in car commercials and sales videos, movies about environmental awareness, and aerial shots of solar installations across the suburbs and various industrial buildings.  Maybe even unmanned solar panel maintanance checks.  No ladders.  RC if local laws forbid anything cooler.  In for a penny...      Best part about owning them in house: no distracting security/itar issues. 

Peanut Gallery out.

How far are you imagining an RC octocopter can fly?  I would imagine it wouldn't have the endurance to fly very far from the land or ship it was launched from, so you still need a ship out there within sight of the landing site.

Offline Joffan

So... its the Pretty Big Rocket party and people are clearly NOT DRINKING ENOUGH.

Getting through max-Q for humanity becoming fully spacefaring

Online meekGee

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I don't know why some are expecting to see a stage sitting itself softly onto the ocean surface during this first flight.  This first flight is only an experiment in engine restarting really.  I would be surprised if the thing survived reentry.  I'm not sure the stage has any directional control, for example, besides Merlin TVC.     
 - Ed Kyle
It has cold gas ACS.
For the first flight?  Do you have a link?

 - Ed Kyle
Every video from each second stage sep event shows the first stage beginning to tumble before reentry. I don't see how they re-light 3 engines to reduce re-entry speeds without having a stable trajectory. So how else would they be able to do this without cold gas ACS to stabilize and get ready for re-light? It seems, but not sure, that the tumble would be of such a nature that TVC would not be ideal or even possible?

All, except the very first one, when the stage fell back straight as an arrow.

In the second one, the stage fall back straight, and then very clearly starts rotating after about 2-3 seconds.  The view FROM the first stage confirms that, and also confirms that the rate of rotation remains constant.

There was speculation that it was intentional, but could have also been a result of a vent.

Either way, it didn't seem to start tumbling spontaneously.

On top, why wouldn't it be possible to stop a tumble with the main engines?  It's not any faster than the "tumble" induced during the GH divert maneuver.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline savuporo

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How far are you imagining an RC octocopter can fly? 
If its not running off batteries, it could go pretty far.

http://www.incrediblehlq.com/
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Offline Lurker Steve

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So... its the Pretty Big Rocket party and people are clearly NOT DRINKING ENOUGH.


If you've started drinking already, you're going to have a real bad hangover by the time this thing gets off the ground. Or maybe just 1 hell of a bar tab...

Offline ChrisWilson68

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How far are you imagining an RC octocopter can fly? 
If its not running off batteries, it could go pretty far.

http://www.incrediblehlq.com/

How far?  I didn't see anything on the first page of that site that mentions range, or any links that sounded like they'd have that kind of detail.

Offline Elvis in Space

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So... its the Pretty Big Rocket party and people are clearly NOT DRINKING ENOUGH.


If you've started drinking already, you're going to have a real bad hangover by the time this thing gets off the ground. Or maybe just 1 hell of a bar tab...

It's just grape Kool-Aid.
Cheeseburgers on Mars!

Offline go4mars

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How far are you imagining an RC octocopter can fly? 
If its not running off batteries, it could go pretty far.

http://www.incrediblehlq.com/

How far?  I didn't see anything on the first page of that site that mentions range, or any links that sounded like they'd have that kind of detail.

Some models claim 20 pounds at 70 km/h for >1.5 km.  less weight and less speed means further.  But potentially all this would require is up (if multiple rafts). 
 I suggested hassellblad; Just zoom in after the fact with all those megapixels.   How far can they go up?  About a kilometer IIRC.  But it might not be necessary to go that high. 
« Last Edit: 08/31/2013 03:04 am by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

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