Author Topic: VERITAS and EnVision  (Read 64081 times)

Offline Torten

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #60 on: 05/20/2023 03:16 pm »
I wouldn't be surprised if VERITAS is cancelled and NASA ups their contribution to EnVision instead - frees up money and JPL resources for more important missions and contributing more to EnVision - even if that merely means more transmit time on the DSN might give them a degree of cover for what would be a very unpopular move.

Offline redliox

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #61 on: 05/20/2023 10:53 pm »
I wouldn't be surprised if VERITAS is cancelled and NASA ups their contribution to EnVision instead - frees up money and JPL resources for more important missions and contributing more to EnVision - even if that merely means more transmit time on the DSN might give them a degree of cover for what would be a very unpopular move.

I'd be disappointed, but merging the 2 missions into a sort-of-flagship does make a lil sense, although I presume you're referring more to a support capacity.  Budgets allowing, I'd settle for NASA contributing a launch vehicle, one instrument, and the com support although naturally that's my opinion.  2 out of 3 Venus missions still an improvement over the years without Venusian science.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline vjkane

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #62 on: 05/21/2023 12:02 am »
I'd be disappointed, but merging the 2 missions into a sort-of-flagship does make a lil sense, although I presume you're referring more to a support capacity.  Budgets allowing, I'd settle for NASA contributing a launch vehicle, one instrument, and the com support although naturally that's my opinion.  2 out of 3 Venus missions still an improvement over the years without Venusian science.
EnVision's instrument list is set.  Perhaps there could be a tweak or two to an already selected instrument, but no merging of capabilities with VERITAS.

EnVision is limited in its data return and hence the total area to be mapped. Don't know the specific reasons why. Perhaps using the DSN in addition to ESA's antennas could allow more data return and more area mapped. However, other limitations such as onboard data storage or power for transmitting data could be the limiting factor. Lots of trades that are hard to understand without knowing details of the design.


Offline Don2

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #63 on: 05/27/2023 10:08 am »
VERITAS and Envision carry very different radars operating at different frequencies. VERITAS is an interferometric SAR, while Envision is a conventional SAR. I don't think there is any way to merge the two instruments.

The only other interferometric SAR I can think of is the Surface Water Ocean Topography (SWOT) mission which launched late last year. In March this mission released an image of Long Island. Water features stand out particularly well, and some highways also seem to be visible.

Attached image is from this press realease:
https://swot.jpl.nasa.gov/news/99/joint-nasa-cnes-water-tracking-satellite-reveals-first-stunning-views/


« Last Edit: 05/27/2023 10:13 am by Don2 »

Offline Don2

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #64 on: 05/28/2023 12:06 am »
This quote from the 2018 Envision assessment study report a good summary of the differences between the missions:

"VERITAS is designed to enable global topographic mapping, so it is naturally complementary to EnVision’s strategy of regional observations using a broad range of synergistic techniques. Whereas VERITAS observations would provide foundational datasets important for comparative planetology, and support science studies requiring global coverage (e.g., obtaining a complete inventory of crater characteristics), EnVision’s multi-messenger geophysics strategy uses combinations of observations at wavelengths from UV to radio-frequency waves to study the coupling of different processes associated with geological activity.
If selected, EnVision would collect targeted high-resolution dual-polarization radar imagery (30 m for up to 30% of surface and 10 m for 2-3% of surface) and generate topographic data via radar stereo techniques (300 m spatial resolution with 30-50 m height accuracy) over these regions."

(VERITAS provides 5m height resolution topography at 250m spacing. It provides a 30m resolution global map, and 15m resolution for 25% of the planet)

I think VERITAS will be very good at finding active areas by comparing their global map with Magellan data. The flexible multi-mode radar on Envision can then follow up on those discoveries. I expect Envision will take considerably better images than VERITAS. There is more to SAR image quality than resolution as the following link explains.

https://www.geospatialworld.net/article/sar-imagery-and-quality-metrics/

With a very long extended mission Envision might eventually approach global coverage, but the topographic map will never be as good as VERITAS.

VERITAS will also measure the spin state of Venus, and those measurements can constrain the core size and the core and mantle composition, as the paper linked below explains.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/PSJ/ac26c0
It should also be able to detect the recently discovered variations in the rotation rate of Venus.

VERITAS can lay a foundation on which Envision can build. It would be a real shame to lose it.

Offline vjkane

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #65 on: 11/03/2023 07:34 pm »
I don't know if it will have any practical effect, but the just released House FY24 budget language includes this statement:

Venus Emissivity, Radio Science, InSAR, Topography, and Spectrometry
mission.—The Committee supports the Discovery Program,
including competitively selected missions such as the Venus
Emissivity, Radio Science, InSAR, Topography, and Spectrometry
(VERITAS) mission. The Committee recommends that NASA request
sufficient funding to ensure a launch by the end of the decade.
The Committee directs NASA to provide a budget profile to ensure
the mission can remain on track.

https://appropriations.house.gov/sites/republicans.appropriations.house.gov/files/FY24-CJS-Explanatory-Materials.pdf

Offline VSECOTSPE

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #66 on: 11/08/2023 12:54 pm »

VERITAS Warns of Risk of Launch Delay

Quote
The head of a delayed NASA mission to Venus has warned that the project risks losing critical expertise if the agency doesn’t find a way to move up the mission…

She said an extended delay, as still planned by NASA, threatened the personnel available for VERITAS, particular for its SAR instrument being developed at JPL. “There’s insufficient radar work at JPL. The radar workforce is really at threat,” she said. “It’s a really big technical threat for us.”

She noted that while NASA has provided some funding for VERITAS to maintain its science team, there was “zero support for engineering development” for the mission. That has led some engineering staff assigned to the mission to seek other work at JPL.

“We are losing our key team members all the time,” she said. “Over the dozen years it took us to get selected we developed a highly experienced, knowledgeable team, and they have to go take other jobs.”

https://spacenews.com/veritas-mission-warns-of-risks-of-launch-delay/

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #67 on: 11/08/2023 01:51 pm »
I don't know if it will have any practical effect, but the just released House FY24 budget language includes this statement:

Venus Emissivity, Radio Science, InSAR, Topography, and Spectrometry
mission.—The Committee supports the Discovery Program,
including competitively selected missions such as the Venus
Emissivity, Radio Science, InSAR, Topography, and Spectrometry
(VERITAS) mission. The Committee recommends that NASA request
sufficient funding to ensure a launch by the end of the decade.
The Committee directs NASA to provide a budget profile to ensure
the mission can remain on track.

https://appropriations.house.gov/sites/republicans.appropriations.house.gov/files/FY24-CJS-Explanatory-Materials.pdf
What is not clear is that the appropriation committee can get the budget line amount to increase. AIUI geting funding for something in excess of a budget line usually meant something else in the budget line get short charged.

Offline vjkane

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #68 on: 03/11/2024 04:22 pm »
Just released FY25 budget proposal has these proposed changes for DAVINCI and VERITAS:

"This budget supports the VERITAS mission to launch during an available Venus opportunity in
2031-2032. NASA reduced the future Discovery and Planetary SmallSat budgets which will delay the
release of the next Discovery and SIMPLEx AOs to no earlier than FY 2026. This budget also delays the
DAVINCI mission launch from 2029 to an available Venus opportunity in the 2031-2032 timeframe."

Page PS-46

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/nasa-fy-2025-congressional-justification.pdf?emrc=65ef360b75003

Offline deadman1204

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #69 on: 03/11/2024 05:11 pm »
IF Veritas ever does happen, I wonder how it'll work. Isn't most the science team already gone and on other projects? They'll need to rebuild everyone from the ground up.

Offline Athelstane

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #70 on: 03/11/2024 05:31 pm »
IF Veritas ever does happen, I wonder how it'll work. Isn't most the science team already gone and on other projects? They'll need to rebuild everyone from the ground up.

That was my understanding, but any JPL peeps lurking here are certainly welcome to clarify how exactly it stands.

Otherwise, sadly, it strikes me as a kind of zombie program, stalking the halls of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory like the walking dead.

Offline Don2

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #71 on: 03/11/2024 06:04 pm »
IF Veritas ever does happen, I wonder how it'll work. Isn't most the science team already gone and on other projects? They'll need to rebuild everyone from the ground up.

The radar is similar to an Earth science probe called SWOT which launched last year. Also there is a another big JPL radar mission which is just about ready to launch. (NISAR) I think they are worried about losing their radar talent.

Offline AndrewM

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #72 on: 08/03/2024 12:00 am »
The 2024 annual GAO assessment of major NASA projects has KDP-B for the VenSAR instrument on EnVision as April 2024. Page 94 (sheet 103) of the report.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-24-106767.pdf

Online StraumliBlight

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #73 on: 11/27/2024 02:59 pm »
VERITAS Venus mission seeks to avoid further delays [Nov 27]

Quote
While the mission’s leadership hoped to bring up the launch from 2031, Sue Smrekar, principal investigator for VERITAS, said at the recent annual meeting of the Venus Exploration Analysis Group (VEXAG) is now working towards a launch in June 2031.

[...]

However, in her presentation at the meeting, she raised concerns that NASA might seek to further slip the launch. The next opportunity to launch VERITAS after June 2031 is November 2032. “There’s a real possibility of a further delay to ’32,” she said.

[...]

While VERITAS works to avoid further delays, both DAVINCI and EnVision are pressing ahead. In a separate presentation at the VEXAG meeting, Thomas Widemann of the Paris Observatory said EnVision was still planning a launch in December 2031. ESA recently changed the launch vehicle for the mission from an Ariane 62 to an Ariane 64, with the extra performance intended to reduce the time the spacecraft spends in aerobraking once at Venus to enter its science orbit.

DAVINCI is looking at launch opportunities in fiscal years 2031 and 2032, said Stephanie Getty, deputy principal investigator for the mission, in another presentation. A preferred launch date is December 2030, she said, which is “scientifically amazing” in terms of providing images of key regions of Venus during two flybys of the planet before arriving in early 2033 to deposit a probe in the planet’s atmosphere.

Launch Risks

Quote
If VERITAS were to launch in the November 2032 opportunity, the VERITAS and EnVision missions would have significant overlap, particularly in their aerobraking campaigns. The current November 2031 EnVision baseline would also be performing VOI within weeks of VERITAS’s VOI.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2024 09:50 pm by StraumliBlight »

Online StraumliBlight

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #74 on: 01/29/2025 12:11 am »
Signed and sealed: Envision can move towards construction

Quote
On 28 January 2025, the European Space Agency (ESA) awarded a contract to Thales Alenia Space (TAS) to build the Envision spacecraft. Launching in the 2030s, Envision will be the first mission to investigate Venus from its inner core to its upper atmosphere. It will investigate what made our most Earth-like neighbour turn out so different from our home planet. 

The contract signing, which took place at the 17th European Space Conference in Brussels, Belgium, kicks off the industrial development of the mission. In collaboration with the Envision team, TAS will now finalise the spacecraft design and begin its construction.

“We are extremely proud to announce our contribution as prime contractor to ESA's Envision mission, twenty years after the historic Venus Express mission,” says Giampiero Di Paolo, CEO of Thales Alenia Space Italia. “Thanks to our long-standing experience on complex scientific missions, we are determined to support this crucial planetary mission, which promises to further our knowledge of our Solar System.”

Prof. Carole Mundell, ESA's Director of Science, adds: “We are thrilled to partner with Thales Alenia Space on this groundbreaking new mission to Venus. No other mission has ever attempted such a comprehensive investigation of our remarkably inhospitable neighbour. Envision will answer fundamental questions about how a planet becomes habitable – or the opposite.” 

Why go to Venus?
Venus is the most Earth-like of the Sun’s terrestrial planets in terms of its size, composition and distance from the Sun. It may even have had a relatively Earth-like climate in its distant past.

Yet at some point in planetary history, the two started to evolve very differently. Venus today has a crushingly dense, toxic atmosphere and a surface that is far too hot to host liquid water. Hence, Venus provides a natural laboratory for studying how habitability – or the lack of it – evolved in the Solar System.

Europe's last mission to Venus – ESA's Venus Express – ended in 2014. It focused on the planet’s atmosphere, but also made dramatic discoveries that pointed to possible volcanic hotspots on the planet’s surface.

Following up on Venus Express's discoveries, Envision will investigate the planet’s surface, interior and atmosphere with unrivalled accuracy, allowing us to understand how these different layers work and interact with each other.

Notes for editors
Envision is an ESA-led mission in partnership with NASA. NASA is expected to provide the VenSAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) instrument, as well as Deep Space Network support. The other payload instruments are contributed by ESA member states, with ASI, DLR, BelSPO, and CNES respectively leading the procurement of the Subsurface Sounding Radar (SRS) and the VenSpec-M, VenSpec-H and VenSpec-U spectrometers. The radio science experiment is led by France with contributions by Germany.

Envision will join ESA’s science fleet of Solar System explorers. These missions address two top-level science themes of ESA’s Cosmic Vision 2015–2025, namely: What are the conditions for planet formation and the emergence of life? and How does the Solar System work?
« Last Edit: 03/10/2025 11:04 pm by StraumliBlight »

Online StraumliBlight

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #75 on: 05/30/2025 10:58 pm »
FY 2026 BUDGET TECHNICAL SUPPLEMENT [May 30]

Quote
Elsewhere in planetary science, NASA will continue development of high-priority missions such as Dragonfly and the Near-Earth Object Surveyor, while ceasing support for the Rosalind Franklin Rover, DAVINCI, VERITAS, EnVision, OSIRIS-Apophis Explorer, and Juno missions.

[...]

EXPLANATION OF MAJOR CHANGES IN FY 2026

In order to achieve cost savings, the DAVINCI, VERITAS, and EnVision missions are eliminated. No funding is provided for the Venus Technology project and funding is reduced for peer-reviewed science in Discovery Research.

All 2026 budget request documents

Offline vjkane

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #76 on: 05/30/2025 11:47 pm »
FY 2026 BUDGET TECHNICAL SUPPLEMENT [May 30]

Quote
Elsewhere in planetary science, NASA will continue development of high-priority missions such as Dragonfly and the Near-Earth Object Surveyor, while ceasing support for the Rosalind Franklin Rover, DAVINCI, VERITAS, EnVision, OSIRIS-Apophis Explorer, and Juno missions.

All 2026 budget request documents
Well, this would kill both ESA's EnVision and Franklin missions to save a few $10sM.  These are our partners and allies.

Offline vjkane

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Offline aga

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #78 on: 05/31/2025 05:29 am »
Well, this would kill both ESA's EnVision and Franklin missions to save a few $10sM.  These are our partners and allies.

will it kill envision? iirc nasa contributes one experiment? in the worst case you will not have it, otherwise it gets replaced by an european one (money and time question of course)
« Last Edit: 05/31/2025 05:29 am by aga »
42

Offline thespacecow

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Re: VERITAS and EnVision
« Reply #79 on: 05/31/2025 05:52 am »
Well if it's just a few tens of millions, ESA can pay NASA to obtain the expertise and services.

Paying for stuff, radical concept I know, but it works. In fact private companies pay NASA to get their expertise and services all the time.

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