Author Topic: Home built space craft.  (Read 32741 times)

Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #40 on: 12/03/2009 05:01 pm »
Would the necessary medical procedure be covered by the upcoming health bill?
I think we're looking for a volunteer with the right stuff.

And this would absolutely have to be a team effort... the movie we keep referring to is hardly a good playbook for this game.

C.L., at suborbital speeds, feathering and tumbling is reasonable for slowing down. At double/triple that speed coming back from orbit, there's a lot more energy to dissipate, so different technologies need to be considered. Lift and control is actually goodness in this regime.
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Offline 3Designer

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #41 on: 12/04/2009 01:28 am »
While this is suborbital and not quite "home built" I think it's an interesting study for the smallest possible envelope for a single person launch vehicle.

http://www.copenhagensuborbitals.com/spacecraft.php





 ;D 8)

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #42 on: 12/04/2009 02:25 am »
While this is suborbital and not quite "home built" I think it's an interesting study for the smallest possible envelope for a single person launch vehicle.

http://www.copenhagensuborbitals.com/spacecraft.php





 ;D 8)
Now THAT would be a wild ride :o .  About as close to wile e coyote as you can get.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #43 on: 12/04/2009 02:36 am »
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/11/ff_whiteknight/

Here is a very interesting article about SpaceshipTwo. The designer was asked about the technical problems when sending a space ship into orbit and all the problems we face today with re-entry into the atmosphere among other things, and he response was, quote: "Umm, really, it's not much of a technical job at all" Wow. This guy has it figured out, obviously. I especially like his startegy for re-entry into the atmosphere. So simple yet so genius.

Big difference between a Mach 3 suborbital reentry and a Mach 25 orbital reentry.
JRF

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #44 on: 12/04/2009 04:44 pm »
Heat shield's too thin
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Downix

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #45 on: 12/04/2009 04:47 pm »
Heat shield's too thin
What if it was an inflatable heat shield?
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #46 on: 12/04/2009 05:27 pm »
Dunno, but I don't know how inflatable heatshields work.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline AlexInOklahoma

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #47 on: 12/04/2009 05:57 pm »
Dunno, but I don't know how inflatable heatshields work.

Here's a little bit on them; heard they were being looked at for possible Mars use (forget where I heard/saw such)

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/aeronautics/features/irve.html

HTH,
Alex

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #48 on: 12/04/2009 10:27 pm »
Dunno, but I don't know how inflatable heatshields work.

If I understand correctly the idea is to increase drag so as to get significant deceleration at higher altitudes. As a result you dissipate your energy over longer part of your path and therefore do not produce as much heating. You could probably even shallow out your reentry path so as to maximize this effect.

The point is still good. For are “garage” built space craft. Even if go with a pressurized cabin in stead of just a space suit, an inflatable heat shield would be way to go.

By the way let’s stick to a pressurized cabin so as not to have to invest in an EVA suit. You could get a small tank for a few hundred dollars that could more than hold the needed pressure.

Offline Downix

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #49 on: 12/04/2009 10:54 pm »
By the way let’s stick to a pressurized cabin so as not to have to invest in an EVA suit. You could get a small tank for a few hundred dollars that could more than hold the needed pressure.
two words:

Soyuz 11
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #50 on: 12/04/2009 11:12 pm »
By the way let’s stick to a pressurized cabin so as not to have to invest in an EVA suit. You could get a small tank for a few hundred dollars that could more than hold the needed pressure.
two words:

Soyuz 11

Theoretically, you could make most of your space suit (besides the helmet) out of something like duct tape and foam. With enough trial-and-error with a large vacuum chamber (and someone looking out for you for the first 200 times you try it and your suit leaks), it's possible, (though your medical bills would probably get pretty high before you finished testing). You'd be uninsurable, that's for sure. Don't know what I'd do for a helmet, but you could get something made out of lexan, and it'd be a start (wouldn't want something too brittle, otherwise you will cut your face up pretty bad when it fails during testing). You could use the same sort of life support system used for your cabin.

We are talking seat-of-your-pants, here. ;)
I'm sure you would be the toughest son-of-a-gun astronaut ever after testing your spacesuit out in that way, assuming you survived without permanent injury. You'd be more accustomed to your body being exposed to vacuum than everyone in the world, combined. I'd imagine it'd take a while to recover after each test. You'd be getting effectively the bends every time your suit failed... Best to do this at like 10,000 feet (at Leadville, CO) or so to minimize the effects of the bends. And always have an oxygen mask handy. And lots of release valves on your vacuum chamber, both inside and outside.

Also, you could likely burst your eardrums, so it'd be best to install tubes in them before you start testing.

But, I think you could survive such testing, as long as you were careful.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline luke strawwalker

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #51 on: 12/05/2009 05:46 pm »

Just for fun,

If your willing to ride a solid, there is this new fuel that is a mix of nano AL and water ice. Give it a try. Easy and safer than most fuels to handle.

A "manned" space craft could be built with off the self parts, it would just most likely be heavier than one built with more expensive and lighter aerospace grade parts. Assuming your willing to ignore the manufactures statements on most electronic semiconductors that say "Not to be used in a life support system".

As for the goverment stopping people willing to try, as long as you follow the rules Orbital, SpaceX, Masten, Armadilo, Blue Origin, and Virgin Galactic seem to be making progress. That is the point of new space.

From the movie, I have a problem with being able to patch back together an Atlas after it skidded along the ground.

Yeah... I was enjoying the movie until THAT scene... despite the implausability, it was a fun movie until THAT scene... 

Guess if I were a typical Gen X'er that didn't know anything but the mall and skateboards it wouldn't have ruined the movie for me... but I've seen too many of the old Atlas missile test films of them bursting into flames and then rupturing and exploding, collapsing from loss of pressure, or otherwise blowing themselves and a good portion of anything nearby to kingdom come, to EVER be able to swallow the absolute stupidity of an Atlas bumping along the desert floor before hurling the capsule bouncing over the rocks before slamming to the ground... HELLO!!!! 

Wonder if any of these film writers have ever heard of GOOGLE or YOUTUBE??  Geez, do FIVE MINUTES of research on the subject, guys, and you'll see that the Atlas was the world's largest explosive steel WATER BALLOON that would NEVER have made it past it's own shadow before blowing up in the scene from that movie... and HELLO!!! WHY OH WHY did the Mercury Atlas have an ESCAPE ROCKET if it was NOT going to use it to pull the capsule free of an errant booster, instead of skidding and bouncing across the desert before catapulting into the rocks?? 

I'm getting a headache... Geez, sloppy screenwriting just gets on my nerves... at least TRY to keep it into the realm of implausability instead of absolute impossibility or patent stupidity... OL JR :)
NO plan IS the plan...

"His plan had no goals, no timeline, and no budgetary guidelines. Just maybe's, pretty speeches, and smokescreens."

Offline ChuckC

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #52 on: 12/05/2009 08:06 pm »
By the way let’s stick to a pressurized cabin so as not to have to invest in an EVA suit. You could get a small tank for a few hundred dollars that could more than hold the needed pressure.
two words:

Soyuz 11

First of all you’re forgetting the fact that several manned Soyuz flights flew safely before   Soyuz 11. Not to mention Voshkok I  and 21 Space shuttle flights all flew saffly with out pressure suits.

In fact of the four fatal manned flights only the crew of Soyuz 11 would have been saved by having pressure suits. They would have made no difference in Soyuz 1 or STS 51L. Also they made no difference in STS 107.

Besides I was not talking about going entirely without a pressure suit, not an EVA suit. The pressure suites used on Vostok Mercury, some Gemini Soyuz and the Shuttle during launch and reentry were not EVA suits.




Offline ChuckC

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #53 on: 12/05/2009 08:19 pm »
By the way let’s stick to a pressurized cabin so as not to have to invest in an EVA suit. You could get a small tank for a few hundred dollars that could more than hold the needed pressure.
two words:

Soyuz 11

Theoretically, you could make most of your space suit (besides the helmet) out of something like duct tape and foam. With enough trial-and-error with a large vacuum chamber (and someone looking out for you for the first 200 times you try it and your suit leaks), it's possible, (though your medical bills would probably get pretty high before you finished testing). You'd be uninsurable, that's for sure. Don't know what I'd do for a helmet, but you could get something made out of lexan, and it'd be a start (wouldn't want something too brittle, otherwise you will cut your face up pretty bad when it fails during testing). You could use the same sort of life support system used for your cabin.

We are talking seat-of-your-pants, here. ;)
I'm sure you would be the toughest son-of-a-gun astronaut ever after testing your spacesuit out in that way, assuming you survived without permanent injury. You'd be more accustomed to your body being exposed to vacuum than everyone in the world, combined. I'd imagine it'd take a while to recover after each test. You'd be getting effectively the bends every time your suit failed... Best to do this at like 10,000 feet (at Leadville, CO) or so to minimize the effects of the bends. And always have an oxygen mask handy. And lots of release valves on your vacuum chamber, both inside and outside.

Also, you could likely burst your eardrums, so it'd be best to install tubes in them before you start testing.

But, I think you could survive such testing, as long as you were careful.

There are safer ways to test a pressure suit.

1. Pressurize it to fictional pressure + 1 atmosphere. This can be done with or with out a person in it.

2. Before testing you home made pressure suit in a vacuum while warring it just inflate it with empty until you are certain it’s safe.

So you don’t need to take all the risks you are describing.

One option would be to keep an eye out for a suit used on Soyuz on e-Bay. I saw one once and it went for about $11,000. Before you ask I didn’t buy it or even bid on it but I did keep an eye it to see what happened.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #54 on: 12/05/2009 08:31 pm »
I was thinking that something more along the lines of the the space activity suit, which only is airtight around the head. Such a suit takes longer to get into, but you could be far more maneuverable. Also, thermal management (except for the helmet) is taken care of naturally through perspiration.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline AlexInOklahoma

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #55 on: 12/05/2009 11:38 pm »
Speaking of the Space Activity Suit, see http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720005428_1972005428.pdf (~10mB pdf) 

Lots more info on it there  :)  Interesting piece actually...

Alex

Offline RandyH

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #56 on: 12/09/2009 08:00 pm »
A fun first part of the feasibility study would be dropping by Norton Sales in North Hollywood, CA.  They carry aerospace surplus. I'm not so sure stuff this old is good for flight, but it would sure be good for study and design reference.
If anyone knows of other places like this, please post!

http://www.nortonsalesinc.com/

Here's a partial list from their site of what they have:

------
What else is in our rocket parts inventory?

    * X-15 XLR99 Engines
    * THIOKOL THRUST CHAMBERS (2)
    * LR101's NEW AND FIRED (NO INJECTOR)
    * LR 101 MOUNTED ON GIMBLE (W/ INJECTOR)
    * LR 101 MOUNTED ON GIMBLE (NO INJECTOR)
    * LR 101 ROCKETDYNE NEW IN BOX (W/ NEW INJECTOR-2PS STYLE)
    * LR 101 INJECTOR ONLY (1PS STYLE)
    * LR 101 MISC. PARTS (INJECTOR CAPS, SCREENS, VALVES, ETC)
    * 4" ROCKETDYNE BUTTERFLY VALVES (ALSO OTHER SIZES)
    * GEMINI MINI THRUSTER (SE-6 AND SE-8)
    * SPHERES (FUEL TANKS) 24"-40" TITANIUM
    * SPHERES (ALL SIZES) 12"-23" ALL MATERIALS
    * CONDOR NOZZLE P/N-RS001115X0 (W/ INJECTOR)
    * CONDOR NOZZLE (NO INJECTOR)
    * LIQUID ROCKET ENGINE (ROCKETDYNE P/N-101030)
    * ATTITUDE CONTROL ENGINE (ROCKETDYNE P/N-9R023080)
    * TANK ASSY-APS BLADDER EXPULSION (BELL P/N-8400)
    * ABMA-NASA LUNAR PROBE FLIGHT (TITANIUM)
    * ABMA-JPL EXPLORER FLIGHT (STAINLESS-STEEL)
    * FLOW STRAIGHTENERS
    * GAS GENERATORS (ROCKETDYNE P/N-9512-44185-11 D)
    * IGNITER FUEL VALVES
    * TRANSDUCERS
    * HATO M7J-317-2 (LIQUID OXYGEN ROCKET OXIDIZER)
    * TURBOPUMP ASSY FUEL "J-2" (P/N-460160-51)
    * LIQUID PROPELLANT ENGINE "XLR79NA-9" (P/N-100567)
    * AEROJET THRUST CHAMBER ASSY (# 37600)
    * PACKAGE 3 NOZZLE ASSY (BELL AIRCRAFT P/N-62-474-004-13)
    * IGNITION EXCITER, HIGH TENSION NA5-27201-2 (P/N-W1750-2)
    * TURBINE ASSY (P/N-1R 91933)

I should go, I really need my flow straightened.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #57 on: 12/09/2009 08:13 pm »
A fun first part of the feasibility study would be dropping by Norton Sales in North Hollywood, CA.  They carry aerospace surplus....
http://www.nortonsalesinc.com/
...

LOL, I was not expecting that.

EDIT:Also, that Space Activity Suit document is really interesting. I'm reading it right now. Why don't we use these???
« Last Edit: 12/09/2009 08:14 pm by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #58 on: 12/09/2009 08:15 pm »
Bob Truax was working on a suborbital project back in the 80's, which I think used Atlas verniers. I don't know if there are still any around.
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline kkattula

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Re: Home built space craft.
« Reply #59 on: 12/10/2009 06:37 am »
I think there is probably too much work to do, and too many different skills needed for one person to build in their garage, or barn, in any reasonable period of time.

However, a small team like Armadillo or Masten, with access to a few million dollars for materials, machine tools, etc, could conceivably do it.

Using the technology and capabilities Armadillo (for example) have already demonstrated, I think they could build a TSTO expendable, with the following assumptions:

Low mass cabin/reentry vehicle (possibly not pressurized, or only to 4 or 5 psi)
Mass = 1t  including occupant.

Stage 1:
LOX/Methane, Helium pressure fed(300 psi), stainless steel, film-cooled
Nozzle ER 8
Average Isp 280
Engine T/W 25:1
Tankage MR 15:1
Empty mass 20.75t
Pressurant mass 3t
Propellant 123.6t
Residuals 1%

Stage MR = 3.27
Delta V = 3250 m/s

Stage 2:
LOX/Methane, He pressure fed (200 psi) , stainless steel, film-cooled
Nozzle ER 40
Average Isp 320
Engine T/W 25:1
Tankage MR 25:1
Empty mass 2.6t
Pressurant mass .4t
Propellant 25t
Residuals 1%

Stage MR = 6.88
Delta V = 6050 m/s


Total Delta V = 9300 m/s
« Last Edit: 12/10/2009 06:38 am by kkattula »

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