Author Topic: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone  (Read 439736 times)

Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1320 on: 02/03/2024 07:33 pm »
Trust me, I've read the thread.  Again, why the fixation on something that no one with info has even hinted was the cause?

Isn't that part of the explanation itself? When a space journalist makes big claims based upon limited info, it gets some attention.

Ok, but where did he make any claims about not needing radiation hardening?  All Berger did was talk about how the Ingenuity engineers used off the shelf components to meet their mass and processor requirements and how well those components worked on Ingenuity.  Eliminating a radiation hardened processor requirement was one example he made, and how Ingenuity's performance is an example of smart risk taking.

Is your point that people should not be discussing something that you do not think is worth discussing?

Online Vettedrmr

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1321 on: 02/03/2024 07:58 pm »
Is your point that people should not be discussing something that you do not think is worth discussing?

No, but going back I realize that the last 4 pages have been your steadfastness that Berger not speaking to "experts" (where we don't know if he did or didn't) about using non-hardened processors, where that was just an example he used. If you want to start a thread about the pros/cons of doing things new ways I think somewhere other than the Ingenuity thread would be more focused.
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Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1322 on: 02/03/2024 09:24 pm »
Is your point that people should not be discussing something that you do not think is worth discussing?

No, but going back I realize that the last 4 pages have been your steadfastness that Berger not speaking to "experts" (where we don't know if he did or didn't) about using non-hardened processors, where that was just an example he used. If you want to start a thread about the pros/cons of doing things new ways I think somewhere other than the Ingenuity thread would be more focused.

Thank you, I will take that under consideration.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1323 on: 02/03/2024 09:52 pm »
Is your point that people should not be discussing something that you do not think is worth discussing?

No, but going back I realize that the last 4 pages have been your steadfastness that Berger not speaking to "experts" (where we don't know if he did or didn't) about using non-hardened processors, where that was just an example he used. If you want to start a thread about the pros/cons of doing things new ways I think somewhere other than the Ingenuity thread would be more focused.

Thank you, I will take that under consideration.
I know this isn't a poll (Which I loathe) but I for one, would love to see that thread take off.
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Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1324 on: 02/05/2024 12:46 pm »
Ingenuity helicopter photographed by Perseverance rover yesterday.

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1325 on: 02/05/2024 12:55 pm »
Thanks for the photo.  I know (via Scott Manley's report) that 2 of the blades were damaged, and the one rotor I could see sure does look shorter than I remember.  I wonder if Perseverance is going to get any closer?
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Offline litton4

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1326 on: 02/05/2024 01:05 pm »
Thanks for the photo.  I know (via Scott Manley's report) that 2 of the blades were damaged, and the one rotor I could see sure does look shorter than I remember.  I wonder if Perseverance is going to get any closer?

Looking at those dunes and the intervening terrain, I would think very much not.
Dave Condliffe

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Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1328 on: 02/05/2024 10:43 pm »

Online cpushack

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1329 on: 02/05/2024 11:31 pm »
Wonder if they don't get too much vibration they could hop it a bit closer to the rover for some better pics

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1330 on: 02/05/2024 11:49 pm »
Wonder if they don't get too much vibration they could hop it a bit closer to the rover for some better pics

I would say, not a chance.  Not only would vibration probably kill the vehicle, but also the outer part of the blades generate a lot of lift.
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Offline spacexplorer

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1331 on: 02/06/2024 06:38 am »
Ingenuity helicopter photographed by Perseverance rover yesterday.

Still in one piece after hitting ground at 500 mph with its propeller.

Online deadman1204

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1332 on: 02/07/2024 04:34 pm »
Is your point that people should not be discussing something that you do not think is worth discussing?

No, but going back I realize that the last 4 pages have been your steadfastness that Berger not speaking to "experts" (where we don't know if he did or didn't) about using non-hardened processors, where that was just an example he used. If you want to start a thread about the pros/cons of doing things new ways I think somewhere other than the Ingenuity thread would be more focused.
i would much rather welcome ANY input from an actual expert rather than forum policing and telling him to get out of the thread. But thats just me...

Online catdlr

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1333 on: 02/12/2024 01:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1757043620329267620

Quote
I have a long feature article on the Mars Ingenuity mission, and its prolonged battle to get a spot on the Perseverance rover. If you want the inside story, this is it:

Link to Article
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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1334 on: 02/12/2024 02:42 pm »
Quite an interesting article, thanks for sharing.

It's another story in the long line of scientists thinking space exploration is ONLY about the science, when it really never has been.  Sure, the science is important, but you have to also capture the interest of the public, and Ingenuity did that amazingly well.  It's why we have humans in space, when they "limit" the science experiments that are flying on their craft.  IMO, if we didn't have humans in space, or dream of humans in space, the science would be MUCH more limited.
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Offline StraumliBlight

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1335 on: 02/12/2024 03:53 pm »
Quote
"The biggest thing was mass. It was just such a big battle," Aung said.

Eventually, they settled on a top-line mass of 4 pounds (1.8 kg) and fought pitched battles over grams.

Was there similar political infighting over Perseverance's sample capsules payload (> 2.45 kg), seeing as the MSR mission has much higher technical risk (e.g. costs rising to $8-11 billion)?

Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1336 on: 02/12/2024 03:53 pm »
Quite an interesting article, thanks for sharing.

It's another story in the long line of scientists thinking space exploration is ONLY about the science

The article also mentions that mission managers, leadership teams, and outside experts were also against the helicopter.

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1337 on: 02/12/2024 03:57 pm »
Was there similar political infighting over Perseverance's sample capsules payload (> 2.45 kg), seeing as the MSR mission has much higher technical risk (e.g. costs rising to $8-11 billion)?

Yes, but different.

Keep in mind that Perseverance was always a top priority (i.e. "flagship") science mission. The issue with including the helicopter was that it was a tech demo, not part of the primary mission. The article refers to this several times. People viewed it as a distraction, even a risk to the primary mission.

The politics over the sample caching in Perseverance are different. The entire point of doing the mission was to cache samples. Early on there was infighting over removing that payload, which raised the question of why do the mission at all? That story has only been partially told.


Online vjkane

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1338 on: 02/12/2024 07:39 pm »
Quote
"The biggest thing was mass. It was just such a big battle," Aung said.

Eventually, they settled on a top-line mass of 4 pounds (1.8 kg) and fought pitched battles over grams.

Was there similar political infighting over Perseverance's sample capsules payload (> 2.45 kg), seeing as the MSR mission has much higher technical risk (e.g. costs rising to $8-11 billion)?
Collecting samples was always Perseverance's primary mission. Mars sample return has been the highest priority of the planetary science committee for I believe over 20 years (Blackstar probably remembers which Decadal Survey first established it as the top priority).

For every mission, there are endless opportunities to enhance it. That's why NASA has such a rigorous review process to tie implementation directly to stated mission goals.

In the case of Ingenuity, it had outside advocates that bypassed the process. It worked out brilliantly this time. But I bet every mission manager's nightmare is having outsiders come in an demand that this or that be added to a mission.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Ingenuity, Mars 2020 Helicopter Drone
« Reply #1339 on: 02/12/2024 08:33 pm »
Collecting samples was always Perseverance's primary mission. Mars sample return has been the highest priority of the planetary science committee for I believe over 20 years (Blackstar probably remembers which Decadal Survey first established it as the top priority).

Well, Mars sample return has been growing in importance and priority over a long period of time, really since the 1990s. What you have to keep in mind is that there was a lot of support for this within the Mars science community. If you're on the outside looking at this stuff, you may see it as the rover and then the helicopter, simply two spacecraft. But that rover's mission had a lot of people behind it and developed support over decades, and the helicopter was a small tech demo that didn't have a lot of people behind it, was a relatively new idea, and didn't have a scientific rationale. These two things are not equivalent.


In the case of Ingenuity, it had outside advocates that bypassed the process. It worked out brilliantly this time. But I bet every mission manager's nightmare is having outsiders come in an demand that this or that be added to a mission.

Worse, their nightmare is somebody who comes up with a cool idea and then gets a member of Congress to force it into happening. In the case of Ingenuity, it was not a big deal. But the reason that the scientific communities came up with the decadal survey process, and the reason that Congress itself has enshrined them into law, was to limit political influence over the selection of specific missions. There have been a number of examples over the years where some scientist tried to get a member of Congress to get their mission approved even though the science community did not want it. New Horizons II is a good example of that. I think there are a few others in the past 20 years. And the DART mission demonstrates what happens when somebody in Congress earmarks a mission without a clear prioritization process.


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