Author Topic: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?  (Read 25316 times)

Offline Riley1066

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STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« on: 06/01/2011 05:43 am »
Wouldn't it be an appropriate thing to have NASA do some aerial photography of Atlantis as it lands to end its mission? I'm sure NASA could set up the flight paths of the chase planes so that they got very stunning views but kept the flight path safe for the vehicle.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2011 08:39 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #1 on: 06/01/2011 09:51 am »
Wouldn't it be an appropriate thing to have NASA do some aerial photography of Atlantis as it lands to end its mission? I'm sure NASA could set up the flight paths of the chase planes so that they got very stunning views but kept the flight path safe for the vehicle.

No, because there is no way for the chase planes to practice such maneuvers.  The SR-71 was used in the past.  There hasn't been chase planes for maybe 100 missions.

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #2 on: 06/01/2011 12:32 pm »
Another issue is that there's no guarantee that the approach would be lighted.  A daylight landing was one of the criteria for the very early flights.

Offline Riley1066

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #3 on: 06/01/2011 01:04 pm »

Yes but this is the last mission ever ... I'm sure they could incorporate chase planes into the last mission as a sort of color guard (with photographic duties) into the flight ...
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Offline Riley1066

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #4 on: 06/01/2011 01:04 pm »
Another issue is that there's no guarantee that the approach would be lighted.  A daylight landing was one of the criteria for the very early flights.


Of course that's a given that it would have to be in a daylight landing.
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Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #5 on: 06/01/2011 01:12 pm »

Yes but this is the last mission ever ... I'm sure they could incorporate chase planes into the last mission as a sort of color guard (with photographic duties) into the flight ...

So what if it is the last mission, there is no way to train for it.  The risk isn't worth it.

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #6 on: 06/01/2011 01:14 pm »

Yes but this is the last mission ever ... I'm sure they could incorporate chase planes into the last mission as a sort of color guard (with photographic duties) into the flight ...
It's not really a question of feasibility.

It's like other suggestions for imagery, like lining up the orbiters together before they go out to their respective museums -- there are much more limited resources today and tomorrow.  They won't be able to run with all the ideas like this.

Offline shuttlefanatic

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #7 on: 06/02/2011 03:03 am »
As psloss suggests, I don't think training is really the concern.  The pilots they have are pros, and with the training they already have, should be able to fly a few hundred or a thousand feet abeam a shuttle on approach with no danger to either craft.

They did photo-chase for the SCA as recently as STS-125 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17221.msg414674#msg414674) using a T-38, which I believe were also the jets chasing the shuttle in the early days of the program.

FWIW, among the various final flight suggestions I've heard (i.e. land at EDW and do a retirement SCA tour back to KSC), photo-chase for a shuttle landing would be one of the cheapest to pull off in terms of manpower and cost.


Offline Jorge

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #8 on: 06/02/2011 03:31 am »
Wouldn't it be an appropriate thing to have NASA do some aerial photography of Atlantis as it lands to end its mission? I'm sure NASA could set up the flight paths of the chase planes so that they got very stunning views but kept the flight path safe for the vehicle.

No, because there is no way for the chase planes to practice such maneuvers.

Practice during STA runs?

Quote
  The SR-71 was used in the past.

And T-38s. And I'm sure the T-38 chase planes used the STA as a training target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-3_landing.jpg
JRF

Offline lcs

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #9 on: 06/02/2011 03:32 am »
If you have any doubts about how spectacular and appropriate it would be to do it, here are the chase plane views of Columbia from 30 years ago:


Offline shuttlefanatic

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #10 on: 06/02/2011 03:41 am »
Oh man, does that bring back memories from my childhood years....

Offline chksix

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2011 10:26 am »
Amazingly soft landing by Young!

I saw it live (on tv) when it happened.
Hoping for a future of NASA manned spaceflight

Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #12 on: 06/02/2011 11:31 am »
Wouldn't it be an appropriate thing to have NASA do some aerial photography of Atlantis as it lands to end its mission? I'm sure NASA could set up the flight paths of the chase planes so that they got very stunning views but kept the flight path safe for the vehicle.

No, because there is no way for the chase planes to practice such maneuvers.

Practice during STA runs?

Quote
  The SR-71 was used in the past.

And T-38s. And I'm sure the T-38 chase planes used the STA as a training target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-3_landing.jpg

The SR-71 was used as a training target for the T-38's.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 11:52 am by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #13 on: 06/02/2011 11:51 am »
As psloss suggests, I don't think training is really the concern.  The pilots they have are pros, and with the training they already have, should be able to fly a few hundred or a thousand feet abeam a shuttle on approach with no danger to either craft.

They did photo-chase for the SCA as recently as STS-125 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=17221.msg414674#msg414674) using a T-38, which I believe were also the jets chasing the shuttle in the early days of the program.



Phil didn't suggest anything wrt training

It doesn't matter if the pilots are pros, it is not a task that is similar to anything they have done.

Photo chase for an SCA is nothing, it is a low, slow and non maneuvering target.  Anyone can fly chase for it.

To train the T-38 chase pilots, an SR-71 was used to simulate the high speed, high descent rate approach of the orbiter.  It is not the normal flight regime of a T-38.  Because of the nature of the shuttle descent, chase pilots would overshoot or undershoot and never meet up with the orbiter.  It took a few flights to get the technique down.  Current NASA pilots don't have this luxury.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 12:02 pm by Jim »

Offline lcs

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #14 on: 06/02/2011 02:50 pm »
Amazingly soft landing by Young!

I saw it live (on tv) when it happened.

So did I, but I never realized how tricky it was for the T-38s to keep up, while broadcasting a live TV picture of the descent.  The one shot where the shuttle is falling like a brick before flaring sums up the challenge. 

Offline mrhuggy

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #15 on: 06/02/2011 07:48 pm »
It would be nice to have, including landing at Edwards and have a tour back.

I wonder how long a F-15 diving high and fast could keep up with the shuttle while the shuttle is at mach 2?

Offline kartmarc

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #16 on: 06/02/2011 07:58 pm »
Wouldn't it be an appropriate thing to have NASA do some aerial photography of Atlantis as it lands to end its mission? I'm sure NASA could set up the flight paths of the chase planes so that they got very stunning views but kept the flight path safe for the vehicle.

Great to see that I'm not the only one who wants to get unique images for the last mission, as I proposed the same in an other thread (NASA HD TV)

Quote
Hello everybody,

As it seems that several of you are close to NASA people (or at least closer than I am !) so I guess it is worth to say it... can anyone suggest the following to someone from NASA medias ?

As the last shuttle mission approaches, it would be great to get new and unusual videos from NASA, like for example :

- instead of static camera, to follow the launch preparations from a cameraman who would go with the astronauts from the elevator to the astrovan, inside it, and up to the whit room, with ambient sound ! previously recorded videos instead of live videos would also be great.
- HD launch video from inside the cockpit, with ambient sound and astronauts live comms
- shuttle landing in formation with 2 or 3 T-38 airplanes... could you imagine such an incredible scene as Atlantis touches down ?
- videos from a T-38, as it was for STS-1... but in HD ! I wasn't born in 1981, I couldn't live this event live on TV, it would be an amazing shot for the final mission.


I know these ideas are probably not feasible... but I would have been angry at myself not having tried !

Regards,

kartmarc

Offline Pheogh

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #17 on: 06/02/2011 08:15 pm »
So  I guess it's out of the question that they re-enter over the US on a descending node as well then so at least the taxpayers that have supported this program for so long could get one last look at her?

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #18 on: 06/02/2011 08:30 pm »
So  I guess it's out of the question that they re-enter over the US on a descending node as well then so at least the taxpayers that have supported this program for so long could get one last look at her?
Not sure if it's out of the question, but it's not the plan.

Offline shuttlefanatic

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #19 on: 06/02/2011 09:12 pm »
I wonder how long a F-15 diving high and fast could keep up with the shuttle while the shuttle is at mach 2?

The shuttle is subsonic by the time it intercepts the HAC at about Mach 0.8 and 40kft.  I wouldn't think an intercept any earlier than that would be prudent.

From a textbook perspective, the HAC would seem to set up a favorable geometry for chase intercept.  However, I'll defer to Jim's statement above on the difficulties of where this fits into a T-38 (or F-15) flight envelope.

Offline nathan.moeller

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #20 on: 06/02/2011 09:14 pm »
So  I guess it's out of the question that they re-enter over the US on a descending node as well then so at least the taxpayers that have supported this program for so long could get one last look at her?

They haven't cared for the last two descending node entries.  I doubt they'd care about this one.  Not one single video was taken of STS-120 or STS-131 as they re-entered over the United States.  If they decide to do a descending node entry, it won't be to let the taxpayers look at her.  It would be to allow for more time in the mission timeline and a daylight landing.
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #21 on: 06/03/2011 08:18 pm »
Might not be a chase plane, but one could let a TV news helicopter in the area and track the orbiter with their camera.  The ones today are pretty powerful and gimbal all around, just let it fly in a racetrack pattern off in a certain corridor

Edit:  Or just bring back the WB-57 since that was its job for the STS.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2011 08:19 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline rdale

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #22 on: 06/03/2011 08:21 pm »
They aren't going to let a news chopper in. Based on what I've seen flying over the crew on the way to the pad, if they need a helicopter with good quality imaging - they already have one available ;)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #23 on: 06/03/2011 08:36 pm »
Why would they need to intercept Atlantis at high Mach numbers? Just chase it after it turns on to final and do a fly past. Good photo ops then...
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Offline msc

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #24 on: 06/03/2011 09:09 pm »
There was video of STS-133, and my memory is that it started before she did the big turn for approach.  I assume that was taken from the ground? 

Offline Pheogh

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing??
« Reply #25 on: 06/03/2011 09:16 pm »
So  I guess it's out of the question that they re-enter over the US on a descending node as well then so at least the taxpayers that have supported this program for so long could get one last look at her?

They haven't cared for the last two descending node entries.  I doubt they'd care about this one.  Not one single video was taken of STS-120 or STS-131 as they re-entered over the United States.  If they decide to do a descending node entry, it won't be to let the taxpayers look at her.  It would be to allow for more time in the mission timeline and a daylight landing.

I think it would be a worthwhile tribute to the final flight if there wasn't a safety reason for not doing it.

Offline Aobrien

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #26 on: 06/04/2011 02:46 am »
Anyone else remember the thread for the MPLM being permanently attached and it was said it would never happen and the taking a picture of the ISS with shuttle and about that never happening...just something to think about ;)
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Offline rdale

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #27 on: 06/04/2011 03:02 am »
Anyone else remember the thread for the MPLM being permanently attached and it was said it would never happen

There never can be a MPLM permanently attached... Those threads mentioned there would be need to modify the MPLM by adding shielding, redundancy, etc. because the MPLM lacked all of those things. :)

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just something to think about ;)

I love L2 as much as anyone else, but I don't think NASA reads the forum to get ideas for future missions and photo ops.

Offline Aobrien

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #28 on: 06/04/2011 05:11 am »
Oh don't get me wrong, i'm pretty sure NASA doesn't read the forum. Was just trying to show how things may seem unlikily but with NASA anything is possible ;)
Not saying there are any good chances of this happening but hey there is always a 1 in a million chance  :)
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Offline kartmarc

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #29 on: 06/04/2011 07:16 am »
NASA don't read forums, but forum members know some NASA employees, who can talk to other NASA employees, who can talk to astronauts, who can talk to managers, etc. It must at least be tried !

Offline shuttlefanatic

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #30 on: 06/04/2011 07:31 am »
NASA don't read forums, but forum members know some NASA employees, who can talk to other NASA employees, who can talk to astronauts, who can talk to managers, etc. It must at least be tried !
Some forum members are NASA employees/astronauts :)

Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #31 on: 06/04/2011 11:11 am »
NASA don't read forums, but forum members know some NASA employees, who can talk to other NASA employees, who can talk to astronauts, who can talk to managers, etc. It must at least be tried !

Why?

Offline kartmarc

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #32 on: 06/04/2011 04:17 pm »
NASA don't read forums, but forum members know some NASA employees, who can talk to other NASA employees, who can talk to astronauts, who can talk to managers, etc. It must at least be tried !
Some forum members are NASA employees/astronauts :)

Even better !  :) And I'm sure future astronauts are members of this forum too  ;)

NASA don't read forums, but forum members know some NASA employees, who can talk to other NASA employees, who can talk to astronauts, who can talk to managers, etc. It must at least be tried !

Why?

Because it is worth to try suggesting these ideas to managers or other influent people at NASA. This administration's media department has already done several operations (tweetup, music in space...) and I'm sure they would hear suggestions from Space Shuttle Program admirators.

Offline Jim

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #33 on: 06/04/2011 05:21 pm »

Because it is worth to try suggesting these ideas to managers or other influent people at NASA. This administration's media department has already done several operations (tweetup, music in space...) and I'm sure they would hear suggestions from Space Shuttle Program admirators.

Why take the pictures?

Offline Eksath

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #34 on: 06/06/2011 01:01 pm »
Orbiters in flight and on short final pictures

The following pictures have been confused as air-to-air.

The closest I have succeeded are these shots of Atlantis and Discovery.

Atlantis with gear up and heading down:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/NASA/Rockwell-Space-Shuttle/1619207/L/

Discovery on short final with gear down.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/NASA/Rockwell-Space-Shuttle/1694863/L/

Needless to say these are only two photos from each of a whole series. I have the sequence from last HAC down to wheels stop.

Unfortunately, Endeavour never seemed to come in on 33 in the recent past when I was in place. ;-)

« Last Edit: 06/06/2011 02:17 pm by Eksath »

Offline psloss

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #35 on: 06/06/2011 01:31 pm »
Needless to say these are only two photos from each of a whole series. I have the sequence from last HAC down to wheels stop.

Unfortunately, Endeavour never seemed to come in on 33 in the recent past when I was in place. ;-)
Those are still great pictures...but not sure there's any certainty that they'll use a Runway 33 approach for end-of-mission, either.

How often are you on the VAB roof for approach and landing?

Offline Eksath

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #36 on: 06/08/2011 02:27 am »
Needless to say these are only two photos from each of a whole series. I have the sequence from last HAC down to wheels stop.

Unfortunately, Endeavour never seemed to come in on 33 in the recent past when I was in place. ;-)
Those are still great pictures...but not sure there's any certainty that they'll use a Runway 33 approach for end-of-mission, either.

How often are you on the VAB roof for approach and landing?


Thanks.

About 80% of the time, it has been the VAB roof  for launch unless a better vantage point opens itself. Sun angle is part of the selection criteria. A little bit less for landing as sometimes such things as SRB stacking ops preclude VAB roof access.

I usually wait for runway selection before choosing between VAB or B Road or center point or something else. Part of this calculation is based upon sun position to landing time. The two pictures posted were morning landings on 33 hence VAB was an excellent spot.

Offline JAFO

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #37 on: 06/24/2011 01:44 am »
One suggestion by a member of the forum I liked was to put Young and Crippen in the back of a couple T-38s as chase to bring the program full circle.

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Offline sts126

Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #38 on: 06/26/2011 01:58 am »
What time of day is planned for eom ksc landing. Thought it was also early am.
Don't worry ... it IS Rocket Science. Dark matter somewhere in the house, just can't find it now.

Offline Austin

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #39 on: 06/26/2011 02:19 am »
What time of day is planned for eom ksc landing. Thought it was also early am.

Wednesday, July 20th. 7:06am EDT.
« Last Edit: 06/26/2011 02:26 am by Austin »

Offline Jester

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Re: STS-135 Aerial Photos of Landing?
« Reply #40 on: 07/04/2011 01:29 pm »
This came up on L2 about the ET Video mod.

It's "easy" to capture video from a P-3 Orion in Castglance / HYTHIRM config.
or an HALO II aircraft, question is, will they ?

Somebody ask spacegirly on twitter :)
twitter.com/spacegirly
« Last Edit: 07/04/2011 01:29 pm by Jester »

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