Author Topic: What if Beal had been successful?  (Read 51880 times)

Offline bad_astra

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What if Beal had been successful?
« on: 03/28/2013 05:02 pm »
I know there are a lot of these "What if" topics, but it is interesting to learn lessons and plot courses that could have occured. Certainly there were a lot of serious startup in the 1990's such as Kelly, Pioneer, Kistler, RRC, and  Space Services (Conestoga 1620), but going into the new Millennium, most of them were gone or soon to be, apart from Kistler. Beale had deeper pockets than the rest.

With Beale Aerospace I specifically wonder if it had been successful, would we in the present time be in the same current situation in the US (OSC and ULA with Beale being an emerging competitor, or possibly a few years further down the road towards manned commercialized spaceflight.

At this point in 2013 has anything good come down the line from Beale? I have never heard of anyone continuing the work on the BA-2, for instance.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2013 12:37 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #1 on: 03/28/2013 06:18 pm »
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2001-03-01/news/love-rockets/

http://www.bealaerospace.com/

Beal was just like Kistler: impeccable technical credentials, bad business plan.
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Offline Mark S

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #2 on: 03/28/2013 06:21 pm »
Well for one thing, SpaceX wouldn't be using Beal's former facilities in MacGregor TX.

I seem to recall that Beal didn't fail so much as give up. Beal Bank is still going strong.

Offline kch

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #3 on: 03/28/2013 06:38 pm »
I've often thought the first stage of the BA-2 would've been a good starting point for an inexpensive replacement for the Shuttle's SRBs -- particularly that 3.2-million-pound-thrust engine:

http://www.astronautix.com/engines/ba3200.htm

 :)

Offline simonbp

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #4 on: 03/28/2013 07:31 pm »
Beal was just like Kistler: impeccable technical credentials, bad business plan.

Not really; Kistler had a very ambious initial design, and almost no intermediate steps to test before an all-up launch. Beal, on the other hand, had a very simple design (pressure-fed Jet-A/LOX or H2O2 with ablative nozzles), but hit the market at just the wrong time.

It's probably more accurate to think of SpaceX as the reincarnation of Beal. Indeed, the original Falcon 5 with the ablative nozzles was very similar to the Beal BA-1, before they went with the H2O2 BA-2. And of course, SpaceX has taken over the Beal test facility and may soo have a Texas coast launch site too. If Beal had managed to get over the hump and fly a few rockets, it's not hard to imagine them occuping the space that SpaceX now holds.

Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #5 on: 03/28/2013 07:36 pm »
Not really; Kistler had a very ambious initial design, and almost no intermediate steps to test before an all-up launch. Beal, on the other hand, had a very simple design (pressure-fed Jet-A/LOX or H2O2 with ablative nozzles), but hit the market at just the wrong time.

Beal failed because he skipped the BA-1

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #6 on: 03/29/2013 04:36 am »
It might be a useful exercise to look at some things like Atlas II and Delta II costs in the time Beal was pitching his idea and then applying standard inflation rates and seeing what they would cost today. One of the things that gets lost in all the hype about SpaceX lowering costs is that once you actually take into account all the other things that are part of launch costs, SpaceX is cheap, but it's not revolutionary cheap. It's not really out of line with what a Delta II would cost today if various policy decisions had not driven the price up way above inflation.

So assume Beal would have done the same thing. Would it really have been that big a deal? Would it have totally disrupted the launch industry? Probably not.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2013 02:35 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Archibald

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #7 on: 03/29/2013 08:02 am »
Quote
If Beal had managed to get over the hump and fly a few rockets, it's not hard to imagine them occuping the space that SpaceX now holds.

That would have been a memorable competition. Would they had killed each others ?

The BA-2 was also somewhat oversized - 17 tons to LEO (from memory). Was the BA-1 smaller ? (never heard of it before)
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Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #8 on: 05/31/2013 01:59 pm »
It might be a useful exercise to look at some things like Atlas II and Delta II costs in the time Beal was pitching his idea and then applying standard inflation rates and seeing what they would cost today. One of the things that gets lost in all the hype about SpaceX lowering costs is that once you actually take into account all the other things that are part of launch costs, SpaceX is cheap, but it's not revolutionary cheap. It's not really out of line with what a Delta II would cost today if various policy decisions had not driven the price up way above inflation.

So assume Beal would have done the same thing. Would it really have been that big a deal? Would it have totally disrupted the launch industry? Probably not.

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #9 on: 05/31/2013 03:26 pm »

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 

I don't understand this question. Can you explain it?

Offline kch

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #10 on: 05/31/2013 03:47 pm »

The BA-2 was also somewhat oversized - 17 tons to LEO (from memory). Was the BA-1 smaller ? (never heard of it before)

Yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beal_Aerospace

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/bealba2.htm

:)

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #11 on: 05/31/2013 05:01 pm »

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 



I don't understand this question. Can you explain it?

Beal at the end tried to make the case that NASA in some way was a hindrance to his project.   If this is the case, then wouldn't those who had funded projects with NASA be the ones who would have the losers?
 
Is it possible what Beal said is true?   Could the contractors have put pressure on to put roadblocks in the way of Beal?   
« Last Edit: 05/31/2013 06:40 pm by Prober »
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Offline kch

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #12 on: 05/31/2013 05:47 pm »

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 

I don't understand this question. Can you explain it?


Beal at the end tried to make the case that NASA in some way was a hindrance to his project.   If this is the case, then wouldn't those who had funded projects with NASA be the ones who would have the losers?
 

Seems doubtful -- IIRC, the competitors were (allegedly) being funded by NASA, and Beal was not.  How would that be a bad thing for the ones that were being funded?



Is it possible what Beal said is true?   Could the contractors have put pressure on to put roadblocks in the way of Beal?   


Is it possible?  Of course -- many things are possible.  Is it actually the case?  We may never know.

Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #13 on: 05/31/2013 05:57 pm »
   Could the contractors have put pressure on to put roadblocks in the way of Beal?   


They didn't.  Beal was mad at NASA for doing business as usual. 

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #14 on: 05/31/2013 06:39 pm »

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 

Beal at the end tried to make the case that NASA in some way was a hindrance to his project.   If this is the case, then wouldn't those who had funded projects with NASA be the ones who would have the losers?
 
Is it possible what Beal said is true?   Could the contractors have put pressure on to put roadblocks in the way of Beal?   

I don't understand this question. Can you explain it?

This doesn't make your question any clearer.
« Last Edit: 05/31/2013 06:58 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #15 on: 05/31/2013 07:00 pm »

So in your thinking Beal wasn't a problem to the other NASA programs that were funded?
 

Beal at the end tried to make the case that NASA in some way was a hindrance to his project.   If this is the case, then wouldn't those who had funded projects with NASA be the ones who would have the losers?
 
Is it possible what Beal said is true?   Could the contractors have put pressure on to put roadblocks in the way of Beal?   

I don't understand this question. Can you explain it?

Posts like this don't make your question any clearer.

take for example (under roadblocks) the EPA wouldn't let Beal have a launch site.  It's like today the EPA looks the other way with some companies.
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Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #16 on: 05/31/2013 07:26 pm »

take for example (under roadblocks) the EPA wouldn't let Beal have a launch site.  It's like today the EPA looks the other way with some companies.

Nothing like that happened with Beal.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #17 on: 05/31/2013 10:44 pm »
I'm very much interested in any facts people can provide on the ultimate failure of Beal Aerospace.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #18 on: 05/31/2013 11:27 pm »
I'm very much interested in any facts people can provide on the ultimate failure of Beal Aerospace.

Fact is that just when things were getting interesting, the firm was shut down.  I don't consider the company a failure as Mr Beal pulled the plug.
 
« Last Edit: 05/31/2013 11:39 pm by Prober »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #19 on: 05/31/2013 11:38 pm »
Fact is that just when things were getting interesting, the firm was shut down.  I don't consider the company a failure.

Agreed, but what did they learn didn't work?
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Offline R7

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #20 on: 06/01/2013 03:23 pm »
Judging by the statement on bealaerospace.com:

Beal was too revolutionary, wanted Beal Aerospace to be truly commercial (sell only developed concrete services, not demo-flights to get paid for RnD) and compete only with others like it. NASA wanted to subsidize the development of other "commercial" services. Beal made a value choice that this picture wasn't commercial enough for him so shut it down. He was already a billionaire so this was an option. But he did burn quite a big pile of his own money in this, did he not? IIRC something like $700M.
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #21 on: 06/01/2013 04:43 pm »
Judging by the statement on bealaerospace.com:

Beal was too revolutionary, wanted Beal Aerospace to be truly commercial (sell only developed concrete services, not demo-flights to get paid for RnD) and compete only with others like it. NASA wanted to subsidize the development of other "commercial" services. Beal made a value choice that this picture wasn't commercial enough for him so shut it down. He was already a billionaire so this was an option. But he did burn quite a big pile of his own money in this, did he not? IIRC something like $700M.

He walked into a subsidized market, couldn't make things work, and then complained that it was a subsidized market. His departing statement sounded naive, like somebody who had not researched his market.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2013 04:43 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #22 on: 06/01/2013 06:52 pm »
Judging by the statement on bealaerospace.com:

Beal was too revolutionary, wanted Beal Aerospace to be truly commercial (sell only developed concrete services, not demo-flights to get paid for RnD) and compete only with others like it. NASA wanted to subsidize the development of other "commercial" services. Beal made a value choice that this picture wasn't commercial enough for him so shut it down. He was already a billionaire so this was an option. But he did burn quite a big pile of his own money in this, did he not? IIRC something like $700M.

He walked into a subsidized market, couldn't make things work, and then complained that it was a subsidized market. His departing statement sounded naive, like somebody who had not researched his market.

fully researched not naïve  ;)
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #23 on: 06/02/2013 12:08 am »
What competitors was he referring to?

Is there a history somewhere?
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Offline gbaikie

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #24 on: 06/02/2013 12:29 am »
I'm very much interested in any facts people can provide on the ultimate failure of Beal Aerospace.


Maybe, if he writes an autobiography, one could get his opinion of the facts.

But it seems to me, it was around the time he was looking for some place
to launch the rocket which had the least hassle involved.

If he was a genius he would have first focused on making some place which is easiest to launch from [in my opinion].
Of course few seem overly fond of my idea of making a pipelauncher :)
« Last Edit: 06/02/2013 12:32 am by gbaikie »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #25 on: 06/02/2013 12:42 am »
Maybe, if he writes an autobiography, one could get his opinion of the facts.

I wonder if anyone has ever approached him for a book. Hopefully not Elizabeth Weil.

Perhaps it was the Fastrac gifted to Orbital Sciences for the X-34 that ticked Beal off?

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #26 on: 06/02/2013 03:32 am »
Judging by the statement on bealaerospace.com:

Beal was too revolutionary, wanted Beal Aerospace to be truly commercial (sell only developed concrete services, not demo-flights to get paid for RnD) and compete only with others like it. NASA wanted to subsidize the development of other "commercial" services. Beal made a value choice that this picture wasn't commercial enough for him so shut it down. He was already a billionaire so this was an option. But he did burn quite a big pile of his own money in this, did he not? IIRC something like $700M.

He walked into a subsidized market, couldn't make things work, and then complained that it was a subsidized market. His departing statement sounded naive, like somebody who had not researched his market.

fully researched not naïve  ;)

That's a little hard to believe based upon his departing statement. If anything, he should have been more angry at DoD than NASA, because they were buying more rockets and had created the EELV program. But when he quit, he blamed others for his failure to succeed.

Offline Danderman

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #27 on: 06/02/2013 05:33 am »
Maybe, if he writes an autobiography, one could get his opinion of the facts.

I wonder if anyone has ever approached him for a book. Hopefully not Elizabeth Weil.

Perhaps it was the Fastrac gifted to Orbital Sciences for the X-34 that ticked Beal off?



IIRC, it was the Air Force subsidies for EELV plus the NASA SLV SLI technology program that bothered Andy Beal.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2013 03:07 pm by Danderman »

Offline R7

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #28 on: 06/02/2013 08:06 am »
That's a little hard to believe based upon his departing statement. If anything, he should have been more angry at DoD than NASA, because they were buying more rockets and had created the EELV program. But when he quit, he blamed others for his failure to succeed.

From the statement:

Quote
While we believed we could compete successfully against the government subsidized EELV launch vehicles, the characteristics and depth of subsidy for NASA’s new initiative as well as its ultimate performance are impossible to determine or evaluate.

It wasn't the EELV that upset Beal. It was already on when Beal got into the business and hard to believe that he didn't know about it :)

SLI was too much for him. In retrospect he pulled the plug too hastily. The naivety was not expecting NASA to continue to do things like SLI and expecting something wonderful to come out of it to put him utterly out of the business. He even admits in the open letter to Space News:

Quote
We were naively lured into business by NASA’s constant remarks about wanting to encourage privatization and new launch service providers.
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #29 on: 06/02/2013 02:51 pm »
That's a little hard to believe based upon his departing statement. If anything, he should have been more angry at DoD than NASA, because they were buying more rockets and had created the EELV program. But when he quit, he blamed others for his failure to succeed.

From the statement:

Quote
While we believed we could compete successfully against the government subsidized EELV launch vehicles, the characteristics and depth of subsidy for NASA’s new initiative as well as its ultimate performance are impossible to determine or evaluate.

It wasn't the EELV that upset Beal. It was already on when Beal got into the business and hard to believe that he didn't know about it :)

SLI was too much for him. In retrospect he pulled the plug too hastily. The naivety was not expecting NASA to continue to do things like SLI and expecting something wonderful to come out of it to put him utterly out of the business. He even admits in the open letter to Space News:

Quote
We were naively lured into business by NASA’s constant remarks about wanting to encourage privatization and new launch service providers.

Jim summed this up real well
"Beal was mad at NASA for doing business as usual."
 
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #30 on: 06/02/2013 04:24 pm »
We were naively lured into business by NASA’s constant remarks about wanting to encourage privatization and new launch service providers.

And I think the collective response was "Boo hoo." He didn't know he was getting into a tough field when he started? And how did he think he was going to compete against Ariane, or Proton? Again, he blamed other people for his failures. It was pretty self-serving.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #31 on: 06/02/2013 04:55 pm »
We were naively lured into business by NASA’s constant remarks about wanting to encourage privatization and new launch service providers.

And I think the collective response was "Boo hoo." He didn't know he was getting into a tough field when he started? And how did he think he was going to compete against Ariane, or Proton? Again, he blamed other people for his failures. It was pretty self-serving.

His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.
Falcon 9 is a lot cheaper,Zenit is, and in some cases maybe even an Atlas V is.

I think he gave up because he wasn't willing to risk money if he was going to have to compete with a subsidize NASA RLV.

Still looking at Spacex's success I wonder if he regrets his decision.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2013 05:04 pm by Patchouli »

Offline savuporo

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #32 on: 06/02/2013 06:55 pm »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.
Falcon 9 is a lot cheaper,Zenit is, and in some cases maybe even an Atlas V is.
....
Still looking at Spacex's success I wonder if he regrets his decision.
SpaceX has not yet shown success in competing with Ariane and Proton, i.e. they are not on the real commercial launch market where Beal wanted to be.

See earlier in this thread:
Quote
Beal was too revolutionary, wanted Beal Aerospace to be truly commercial (sell only developed concrete services, not demo-flights to get paid for RnD) and compete only with others like it. NASA wanted to subsidize the development of other "commercial" services. Beal made a value choice that this picture wasn't commercial enough for him so shut it down....

Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #33 on: 06/02/2013 06:58 pm »
With skipping the BA-1, it is not a given that the BA-2 would work

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #34 on: 06/02/2013 07:39 pm »
With skipping the BA-1, it is not a given that the BA-2 would work

your talking about the commercial launches of the Iridium satellites when the company went bankrupt.
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #35 on: 06/02/2013 09:10 pm »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.

Paper rockets are always cheaper than actual rockets.

Offline R7

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #36 on: 06/03/2013 10:51 am »
BA-2 would have been the first real incarnation of Big Dumb Booster philosophy, which is heavily connected to Minimum Cost Design. For all intents and purposes it should have been cheaper than equivalent LV of conventional design. Beal didn't give it a chance to either succeed or fail in that.

take for example (under roadblocks) the EPA wouldn't let Beal have a launch site.  It's like today the EPA looks the other way with some companies.

The launch site was supposed to be Sombrero Island, so that's UK territory. But I guess that didn't make things any easier, there's "EPA" in every industrial country that, with help of fierce greenies, must make sure a launch pad won't disturb an island ... already fubarred by guano mining.  ::)
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #37 on: 03/18/2014 12:24 pm »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.

Paper rockets are always cheaper than actual rockets.

Well the second stage engine worked quite well and that was a good sign. Damn powerful rocket too. BTW, who got all the IP (such as engine designs) when Beal quit? Anyone know>

Randy
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British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Prober

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #38 on: 03/22/2014 11:54 am »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.

Paper rockets are always cheaper than actual rockets.

Paper rockets?   Mr. Beal deserves the respect for putting his money in real terms where his mouth was.

Please do check out the amount of cash he personally invested the adjust it for inflation.

If you compare the amount, or even the percentage of Mr. Beal's investment compared with todays so called "commercial" its very much an apples vs oranges story.    Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.

If you wish to discuss "paper rockets";  That's open to discussion. Mr. Beal might not have gotten to the assembly, and launch phase he did build much of that rocket.   My files, In storage  include much of his web site materials that are no longer available.   
 
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #39 on: 03/22/2014 12:41 pm »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.

Paper rockets are always cheaper than actual rockets.

Paper rockets?   Mr. Beal deserves the respect for putting his money in real terms where his mouth was.

Please do check out the amount of cash he personally invested the adjust it for inflation.

If you compare the amount, or even the percentage of Mr. Beal's investment compared with todays so called "commercial" its very much an apples vs oranges story.    Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.

If you wish to discuss "paper rockets";  That's open to discussion. Mr. Beal might not have gotten to the assembly, and launch phase he did build much of that rocket.   My files, In storage  include much of his web site materials that are no longer available.   
 

I posted that nearly 10 months ago and you're going to feign outrage now?

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #40 on: 03/22/2014 02:36 pm »
His LV probably could have easily undercut Ariane and Proton which really are not all that cheap.

Paper rockets are always cheaper than actual rockets.

Paper rockets?   Mr. Beal deserves the respect for putting his money in real terms where his mouth was.

Please do check out the amount of cash he personally invested the adjust it for inflation.

If you compare the amount, or even the percentage of Mr. Beal's investment compared with todays so called "commercial" its very much an apples vs oranges story.    Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.

If you wish to discuss "paper rockets";  That's open to discussion. Mr. Beal might not have gotten to the assembly, and launch phase he did build much of that rocket.   My files, In storage  include much of his web site materials that are no longer available.   
 

I posted that nearly 10 months ago and you're going to feign outrage now?

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

 :-[   not outrage,  Clarification for a good conversation  ;D

Prober even got Jim to post more than a few words for an answer :)

Your turn  8)
« Last Edit: 03/22/2014 03:07 pm by Prober »
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Offline Step55

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #41 on: 03/22/2014 03:36 pm »
I'm very much interested in any facts people can provide on the ultimate failure of Beal Aerospace.

Fact is that just when things were getting interesting, the firm was shut down.  I don't consider the company a failure as Mr Beal pulled the plug.

How close was the pickup truck to the test stand? That just looks wrong :o

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #42 on: 03/22/2014 04:08 pm »

1.  If you compare the amount, or even the percentage of Mr. Beal's investment compared with todays so called "commercial"

2.  If you wish to discuss "paper rockets";  That's open to discussion. Mr. Beal might not have gotten to the assembly, and launch phase he did build much of that rocket.   My files, In storage  include much of his web site materials that are no longer available.   
 

1.  It was a small amount compared to what Boeing, LM or Spacex have invested

2 It was a bad design

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #43 on: 03/22/2014 07:08 pm »

1.  If you compare the amount, or even the percentage of Mr. Beal's investment compared with todays so called "commercial"

2.  If you wish to discuss "paper rockets";  That's open to discussion. Mr. Beal might not have gotten to the assembly, and launch phase he did build much of that rocket.   My files, In storage  include much of his web site materials that are no longer available.   
 

1.  It was a small amount compared to what Boeing, LM or Spacex have invested

2 It was a bad design

1. Yes, but you cut the most important line and point.  Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.    The funds for his development came directly out of his pocket

"Beal Aerospace is 100 percent privately financed with a commitment of many hundreds of millions of dollars from Mr. Beal. The company is breaking the mold of traditional aerospace companies, which typically develop products using government funds to meet government needs." *

2) In what way?

Edit: add text *For Immediate Release
                      June 16, 1998
« Last Edit: 03/22/2014 07:17 pm by Prober »
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #44 on: 03/22/2014 07:17 pm »

1. Yes, but you cut the most important line and point.  Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.    The funds for his development came directly out of his pocket

2) In what way?

1.  After COTS, Spacex hasn't.  Beal wanted to get money.

2.  The location of pressurant tanks and the vehicle assembly.  Also, he should have gone with a the BA-1 first, like Falcon 1

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #45 on: 03/22/2014 07:35 pm »

1. Yes, but you cut the most important line and point.  Today's "commercials" take taxpayer money to fund their companies.    The funds for his development came directly out of his pocket

2) In what way?

1.  After COTS, Spacex hasn't.  Beal wanted to get money.

2.  The location of pressurant tanks and the vehicle assembly.  Also, he should have gone with a the BA-1 first, like Falcon 1

1.  Beal hoped to make Beal Aero into a money making business.   Mr. Beal (the man), should be admired.  His life after Beal Aero makes for a story of a truly decent person.    Beal Aero was a sad part in his life.

2) You might be right about the BA-1.   Sure launching payloads would have brought the cash in.
Care to expand more on the tankage?
« Last Edit: 03/23/2014 02:21 pm by Prober »
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #46 on: 03/22/2014 08:00 pm »
Some specs and more details

For Immediate Release
June 16, 1998


Beal Aerospace to Develop BA-2 Rocket, Bypassing BA-1
DALLAS, TEXAS - Beal Aerospace announced today that it is moving directly to the development of the BA-2 satellite launcher and bypassing the smaller BA-1. Progress over the past year and numerous successful engine tests have prompted the decision to develop an Ariane-5 class launcher directly. "The BA-2 has always been the ultimate goal," notes Andrew Beal, CEO of Beal Aerospace. "Given our past successes, I am extremely confident that we can develop the BA-2 and dramatically reduce the cost of space launch."

The BA-2 is more than double the weight of the BA-1 and will address the entire commercial launch market - including current and planned geostationary satellites. The BA-2 will be able to lift satellites weighing over 5,000 kg to geostationary transfer orbit or GTO. GTO is the orbit to which launch vehicles often deliver satellites when the satellites are ultimately headed to geostationary orbit some 23,000 miles in space. Geostationary satellites are well established and represent the major share of the launch market. The BA-2 will also be highly cost effective in launching multiple low earth orbit satellites such as Teledesic, Globalstar, and Iridium.

The three-stage rocket will launch from Sombrero Island in the Caribbean and offer GEO satellites a significantly more efficient transfer orbit than rockets launching from Cape Canaveral. Sombrero is ten degrees in latitude closer to the equator than the Cape and gives the Beal rockets a built-in advantage.

Beal Aerospace was formed in early 1997 and has a rapidly growing team of 70 highly talented managers, engineers, and technicians. The initial 100,000 square foot factory in Frisco, TX is nearing completion and is currently being outfitted with rocket production tooling. Dozens of engine firings have been completed to-date with four recent tests of a scale model stage-1. The engine firings have been particularly successful with extremely stable combustion, no injector heat damage, and virtually no throat erosion. "We are designing a low cost expendable rocket and finding that our engines could be reused many times - should we decide to recover the spent stages from the ocean," comments Scott McFarlane, head of propulsion development.

The all carbon-fiber and epoxy BA-2 rocket will introduce many firsts including high-tech overwrapped tanks and engines, low-cost and environmentally safe hydrogen peroxide propulsion, and the world's largest rocket engine. The 3 million pound thrust first stage engine will generate twice the thrust of the F-1 engine used on the Saturn-V rocket - but without the combustion instabilities that plagued the development of the F-1. "Hydrogren peroxide is key to the simplicity of our design," says Scott Frazier, Program Manager at Beal Aerospace. "It is safe, environmentally benign, and has fundamentally different combustion properties which bypass previous engine development problems associated with large thrust chambers."

Beal Aerospace is 100 percent privately financed with a commitment of many hundreds of millions of dollars from Mr. Beal. The company is breaking the mold of traditional aerospace companies, which typically develop products using government funds to meet government needs.


# # #
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #47 on: 03/22/2014 08:02 pm »
From the former Web page

Vehicle Description
The BA-2 is a three-stage launcher that will stand 68 meters tall. Having a diameter of 6.2 meters, the rocket is topped by a payload fairing that is huge by industry standards. This very large payload fairing affords room for side-by-side placement of large satellites. The vehicle employs one centerline engine per stage and weighs 950 tons at liftoff. Stages one and two utilize liquid injection (LITVC) for steering and stage-3 has a gimbaled engine with the ability to restart multiple times. The BA-2 will be able to lift 5,800 kg to GTO and 17,000 kg LEO at substantially lower prices than currently charged. Stages 1 and 2 will ultimately employ reusable technologies for complete recovery at sea.

Choice of propellants is at the heart of the BA-2: clean burning kerosene and hydrogen peroxide. Fuel is fed to Beal Aerospace Technologies-built engines using helium pressure. This pressure fed propellant technique negates the use of costly and complicated turbo pumps. Propellant tanks are being fabricated as composite filament wound structures, permitting the pressure vessels to be lightweight, highly durable and strong. Modified to meet the larger BA-2 diameter, one of the world's largest filament winding machines is now in operation at Beal.

Performance Capability

The BA-2 has a restarting third stage, which enables Hohmann transfer orbit injections, GTO, and targeted Earth escape missions. The standard ascent trajectory launches to a 200 km altitude. For GTO and Earth escape missions, a 200 km circular orbit is used as a parking/phasing orbit. For Hohmann transfer missions an elliptic parking orbit is used where the perigee is 200 km and the apogee is the final orbit altitude. Upon reaching apogee, a second burn is executed by the third stage to circularize the orbit.

All of the payload performance data presented here contains a 60 m/s flight performance reserve, a 200 kg "avionics growth" reduction, a five percent margin, 20% burnout mass margins for each stage, and a three percent specific impulse margin for each stage. Performance simulations have been performed with DAB Ascent 2.0 (3DOF) and validated with POST-3D to confirm accuracy.

Performance to GTO with the above mentioned margins is 5,800 kg, to an inclination of 17.6 degrees. Payload attachment shall be accomplished utilizing the EELV standard 117 inch or 62 inch bolt circles. Electrical interfaces shall meet or exceed EELV requirements.

Edit: add charts
« Last Edit: 03/22/2014 08:07 pm by Prober »
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #48 on: 03/22/2014 10:58 pm »
Several years ago I wrote an article about what I called "space fetishism," about how space enthusiasts often get wrapped around some specific technology or ideological solution that they think is truly wonderful and is the magic solution to--if not all problems, then it is at least the solution to what they consider the biggest problems.

So we have people who are obsessed with space solar power ("the solution to all of our energy needs!") or fuel depots ("the only viable way to expand into the solar system!") or space elevators, VASIMR, "commercial" contracting, ISRU, liquid salt reactors (?!), fixed price contracting ("Death to the FAR!"), 3D printing, SpaceX (solves virtually all problems, from low cost launch to landing on Mars), Polywell fusion, reusable launch vehicles, SSTO, I could go on and on.

And in addition to these current fetishes, there are the historical fetishes as well. Poke around in space discussion groups and you can find passionate advocates for:

-Dyna-Soar
-DC-X
-MirCorp

These advocates bemoan the cancellation of these projects and argue that if they "had just been allowed to work!" they would have been great, probably much better than what we ended up with.

Every canceled project is far superior to our dismal reality for somebody. Every canceled project has great performance, even though it never fully demonstrated that performance in operation.

I would humbly suggest that Beal is in that category for some people. They think that Beal would have been a great project and would have achieved all its goals, if only the nefarious government bureaucrats who destroy everything good and noble in this world had not gotten involved.

« Last Edit: 03/22/2014 10:59 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #49 on: 03/22/2014 11:59 pm »

2) You might be right about the BA-1.   Sure launching payloads would have brought the cash in.


It wouldn't be for cash but for validating the concept and technology

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #50 on: 03/23/2014 02:11 pm »
Several years ago I wrote an article about what I called "space fetishism," about how space enthusiasts often get wrapped around some specific technology or ideological solution that they think is truly wonderful and is the magic solution to--if not all problems, then it is at least the solution to what they consider the biggest problems.


Sounds like a great article maybe you can post it under "general".   Would enjoy to see if you cover the differences between "space fetishism," "space enthusiasm ," and the "space Cult" person.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #51 on: 03/23/2014 02:16 pm »

2) You might be right about the BA-1.   Sure launching payloads would have brought the cash in.


It wouldn't be for cash but for validating the concept and technology

Yes, looks like the move to the BA-2 was his motivated by his view on future payloads.
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #52 on: 03/23/2014 05:42 pm »
Several years ago I wrote an article about what I called "space fetishism," about how space enthusiasts often get wrapped around some specific technology or ideological solution that they think is truly wonderful and is the magic solution to--if not all problems, then it is at least the solution to what they consider the biggest problems.


Sounds like a great article maybe you can post it under "general".   Would enjoy to see if you cover the differences between "space fetishism," "space enthusiasm ," and the "space Cult" person.




I wrote it over four years ago. Got a lot of comments along the lines of "You are wrong about space solar power! It is about to happen right now! Pacific Gas and Electric is going to do it!"

Four years ago.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #53 on: 03/23/2014 10:25 pm »
Here is the article in question in case anyone would like to read it.
Space fetishism: space activism’s obsession with technological and ideological saviors
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1534/1

Offline su27k

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #54 on: 03/24/2014 03:28 am »
What space conservatists don't understand is that there is an industry where "fetish" actually works, yesterday's dream is really today's hope and tomorrow's reality, because it's happening right before our eyes. And people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world really are the ones who do, because they became billionaires overnight.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #55 on: 03/24/2014 11:45 am »
yesterday's dream is really today's hope and tomorrow's reality

Print that in a Hallmark card.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #56 on: 03/24/2014 12:00 pm »
yesterday's dream is really today's hope and tomorrow's reality

Print that in a Hallmark card.

It's actually printed on the side of my GSFC coffee cup. "It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow." Dr. Robert H. Goddard

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #57 on: 03/24/2014 01:29 pm »
What space conservatists don't understand is that there is an industry where "fetish" actually works,

Which industry is that?

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #58 on: 03/24/2014 02:57 pm »
What space conservatists don't understand is that there is an industry where "fetish" actually works,

Which industry is that?

Do not look it up on your work computer.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #59 on: 03/24/2014 02:59 pm »
What space conservatists don't understand is that there is an industry where "fetish" actually works,

Which industry is that?

Do not look it up on your work computer.

Duh!

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #60 on: 03/24/2014 03:24 pm »
Do not look it up on your work computer.

That's why I like Space Activity Suit, a legitimate crossover  :-X
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #61 on: 04/03/2014 01:22 pm »
In a nutshell,

   Beal started too early, ticked off the wrong people, spread his construction and launch facilities a bit too wide, (at the time) and choose locations for some of his facilities sure to tick off a lot of rich people.
     Individually, none of these things were insurmountable, but together, they were just too much.
My God!  It's full of universes!

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #62 on: 02/19/2016 01:11 am »
NEW

This web site is new, is he going back in the Aerospace Business?


http://www.andrewbeal.com/Beal-Aerospace


can someone grab those videos....they have been gone for years.


PDF 2014






« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 01:20 am by Prober »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #63 on: 02/19/2016 01:15 am »
I doubt it.. just a little corporate history.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #64 on: 02/19/2016 04:55 pm »
Maybe Beal decided to go back to the launch business, now that the high frontier is opening for real, the large lift capability of the BA-2 would be welcomed...
« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 04:57 pm by Archibald »
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #65 on: 02/19/2016 04:59 pm »
Too bad really because even the BA-810 would have made a heck of a booster engine :)
(1 BA-810 = 4.3 Merlin1Ds just gives me chills to think of the things you can do :) )

Timing is everything they say and Beal didn't have that or the vision/drive to go broke competing in the market of the day. Can't really fault him for pulling out, and lets face it NASA-et-al are a convenient whipping boy for almost everyone despite the "facts" on the ground so his good-bye post is understandable if not actually supported by the facts.

His concept of "purely commercial" was the biggest flaw in the plan as far as I can see since even Elon isn't willing to go that far and gladly accepted NASA money/support which is why I don't see Beal ever stepping back into the game.
Jim's also right that he tried to do to much from the start with not enough "proof" on the ground and it would have done wonders for the design to proceed through some intermediary steps before trying to fly the full-up design.

And you can't fault his ultra-conservative design really under the circumstances, as he was coming at the problem from a "purely commercial" point of view with no plans for pushing the boundaries like SpaceX has done. Today might be different but I'm doubtful the incentive would be there to jump in again...

So, that means we can steal, er borrow I mean, what he did do and make our own plans for Solar domination! Bwhahahahaha! Er, Hmmm, that sounded WAY less "super-villain-ish" in my head :)

Randy
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British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #66 on: 02/19/2016 05:38 pm »
Too bad really because even the BA-810 would have made a heck of a booster engine :)
(1 BA-810 = 4.3 Merlin1Ds just gives me chills to think of the things you can do :) )

Timing is everything they say and Beal didn't have that or the vision/drive to go broke competing in the market of the day. Can't really fault him for pulling out, and lets face it NASA-et-al are a convenient whipping boy for almost everyone despite the "facts" on the ground so his good-bye post is understandable if not actually supported by the facts.

His concept of "purely commercial" was the biggest flaw in the plan as far as I can see since even Elon isn't willing to go that far and gladly accepted NASA money/support which is why I don't see Beal ever stepping back into the game.
Jim's also right that he tried to do to much from the start with not enough "proof" on the ground and it would have done wonders for the design to proceed through some intermediary steps before trying to fly the full-up design.

And you can't fault his ultra-conservative design really under the circumstances, as he was coming at the problem from a "purely commercial" point of view with no plans for pushing the boundaries like SpaceX has done. Today might be different but I'm doubtful the incentive would be there to jump in again...

So, that means we can steal, er borrow I mean, what he did do and make our own plans for Solar domination! Bwhahahahaha! Er, Hmmm, that sounded WAY less "super-villain-ish" in my head :)

Randy


Randy Take the info from this
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39553.msg1489811#msg1489811


enough incentive ?   :)
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #67 on: 02/19/2016 08:22 pm »
Randy Take the info from this
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39553.msg1489811#msg1489811


enough incentive ?   :)

To be honest? It's the Air Force and I happen to know from experience they don't appreciate "domination" schemes where they in fact are not the one doing the "domination" thing...

Annoying that :)

Getting Beal's attention is doubtful for much the same reason, it's the Air Force and his vision was to avoid government entanglements as much as possible. Government customers is one thing, them paying the way? I didn't get the impression that was the way he was seeing things working and a major reason why he quit is because that WAS in fact the way things were set up to work.

Randy
« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 08:25 pm by RanulfC »
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Dante80

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #68 on: 10/23/2016 09:00 am »

Too bad really because even the BA-810 would have made a heck of a booster engine :)


It really was a monster..<3
« Last Edit: 10/23/2016 09:41 am by Dante80 »

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #69 on: 10/24/2016 06:02 pm »
How close was the pickup truck to the test stand? That just looks wrong :o


Too bad really because even the BA-810 would have made a heck of a booster engine :)
It really was a monster..<3

The photo in the immediately previous post, taken from a different perspective, appears to answer Step55's question.  That truck does appear to be too close.  Did it get stuck in the mud?  It looks like steam is rising from the mud puddles.

It looks like the set-up for a Farmer's Insurance ad for strange claims..."We are Farmer's, bum-te-de-um-bum, bum-bum."  ;D
« Last Edit: 10/24/2016 06:16 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #70 on: 10/24/2016 07:34 pm »
Interesting bit from the video's up thread. That was the smaller second stage engine. Imagine what they would have parked next to it if they had built and tested the first stage engine?
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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #71 on: 10/24/2016 08:58 pm »
If this fact was not posted yet, here's something amazing about Beal's canceled BA-2 launch vehicle:

At liftoff, the first stage produces a thrust of 2,693,211 pounds. About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.
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Offline Jim

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #72 on: 10/24/2016 09:02 pm »
About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.

That was never a planned configuration. 

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #73 on: 10/24/2016 09:26 pm »
About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.

That was never a planned configuration.

Well, it was discussed, but not formally planned.
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #74 on: 10/25/2016 09:47 pm »
How close was the pickup truck to the test stand? That just looks wrong :o


Too bad really because even the BA-810 would have made a heck of a booster engine :)
It really was a monster..<3

The photo in the immediately previous post, taken from a different perspective, appears to answer Step55's question.  That truck does appear to be too close.  Did it get stuck in the mud?  It looks like steam is rising from the mud puddles.

It looks like the set-up for a Farmer's Insurance ad for strange claims..."We are Farmer's, bum-te-de-um-bum, bum-bum."  ;D

I keep seeing that and thinking there's a conversation there...
"3, 2, 1, fire!"
"Hey Jim, did you get your camera from the truck?"
"Ya, I got and rode back to the bunker with Ted...."
"Jim, where's your truck?"
"Uhm..."

On the other hand I can imagine some great 'dashboard' cooking going on...

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Dante80

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #75 on: 10/26/2016 08:04 am »
At liftoff, the first stage produces a thrust of 2,693,211 pounds. About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.

I get some different numbers here.

http://www.astronautix.com/b/bealba-2.html
http://www.astronautix.com/b/ba-3200.html

If I understand correctly, The number in the engine name was used as a descriptor of its planned thrust. In other words, at liftoff the BE-3200 was supposed to give/have more thrust and SL Isp than the STS SRBs.

« Last Edit: 10/26/2016 08:07 am by Dante80 »

Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #76 on: 10/26/2016 07:02 pm »
At liftoff, the first stage produces a thrust of 2,693,211 pounds. About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.

I get some different numbers here.

http://www.astronautix.com/b/bealba-2.html
http://www.astronautix.com/b/ba-3200.html

If I understand correctly, The number in the engine name was used as a descriptor of its planned thrust. In other words, at liftoff the BE-3200 was supposed to give/have more thrust and SL Isp than the STS SRBs.

Was suggested actually in 1999, (not using Beal motors though) by someone who's name many here will recognize:
http://www.sworld.com.au/steven/pub/lrb.pdf

Problem would be the diameter and thrust, (no throttling) of the big Beal engine and stage.

When you read the description of Beal's 'vision' you note that other than a lack of focus on Mars, (and making humanity a multi-planet species) it sounds awfully familiar.

And addressing the original question I'd note, (though I think it's mentioned up-thread) that had Beal been successful then Elon would have probably not gotten into the launch business at all as Beal could have provided an 'economic' LV to launch his original Mars greenhouse idea. "Economic" enough is another question I suppose though.

But I don't see Beal having the extensive vision that Elon did/does and in that respect Beal's efforts were both more realistic but significantly lacking which contributed to failure.

Elon has stated he believes enough in his vision to spend himself into-the-poor-house in essence where as with Beal's background I doubt that would have been a viable path for Beal to take. Beal planned to flout 'convention' and blaze his own path much as Elon has done, (with as I noted a very similar 'basic' plan) but he was less willing to work with the government or pursue contacts and contracts which Elon has depended on. Elon planned reusability from the beginning but was willing to forgo it initially to pursue an operational vehicle, Beal seems to never have considered it and granted his aimed for business segment would not have been effected by reusability to a large degree and his vehicle design wasn't really capable of being turned into a reusable design. (There was some wiggle room but not without a fundamental effort towards it) Beal also seems to have had no interest in manned space flight which is the premise of Elon's plans.

Overall while both Beal and Elon had a very superficial commonality of vision and planning Beal's was more practically rooted in the then 'current' business environment where as Elon, (and Beezo's for that matter) have always been more focused on longer-term goals. And that made a world of difference to the outcomes.

Frankly I'd love to see some development work done on the Beal engines to make the more reusable and operationally robust as I can see a real competitor emerging from reusable design using them. But I don't see anyone being interested in taking a good look at what everyone considers 'obsolete' and 'low-performance' equipment and systems.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #77 on: 10/30/2016 04:42 pm »
At liftoff, the first stage produces a thrust of 2,693,211 pounds. About as much as the canceled Delta IV Medium+ (5,8) variant.

I get some different numbers here.

http://www.astronautix.com/b/bealba-2.html
http://www.astronautix.com/b/ba-3200.html

If I understand correctly, The number in the engine name was used as a descriptor of its planned thrust. In other words, at liftoff the BE-3200 was supposed to give/have more thrust and SL Isp than the STS SRBs.

You got a different number because that's the vacuum thrust in kilonewtons. What was listed was the sea-level thrust converted to pound-forces from kilonewtons.

In conclusion, the BA-2 produces 11,980 kilonewtons (2,693,211 pounds) of thrust at liftoff, and 14,100 kilonewtons (3,169,806 pounds) of thrust once out of Earth's atmosphere.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2016 05:28 pm by ZachS09 »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #78 on: 10/31/2016 08:58 am »
I'm away from my HD but I dug out a recent interview of Beal about SpaceX. Andrew and Elon know each others pretty well, and not only because of the McGreggor connection. Basically Beal feel a little too old to try again, but he is quite happy with what Elon already achieved.
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #79 on: 10/31/2016 02:53 pm »
I'm away from my HD but I dug out a recent interview of Beal about SpaceX. Andrew and Elon know each others pretty well, and not only because of the McGreggor connection. Basically Beal feel a little too old to try again, but he is quite happy with what Elon already achieved.

I can understand that though to be honest I'm still going to be disappointed :)

I'd love to see someone come up with a from-the-start reusable booster based on keroxide based around some of the Beal engines and what we know today about high-test peroxide. (It still kills me that we should have discovered how easy it was to get peroxide NOT to decompose in storage a lot earlier than the mid-70s, and despite that almost no one who uses or proposes peroxide STILL don't seem to know about it!)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Archibald

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Offline tdperk

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #81 on: 10/31/2016 04:57 pm »
(still kills me that we should have discovered how easy it was to get peroxide NOT to decompose in storage a lot earlier than the mid-70s, and despite that almost no one who uses or proposes peroxide STILL don't seem to know about it!)

Err...how do you keep it from decomposing?

Offline RanulfC

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #82 on: 10/31/2016 08:09 pm »
(still kills me that we should have discovered how easy it was to get peroxide NOT to decompose in storage a lot earlier than the mid-70s, and despite that almost no one who uses or proposes peroxide STILL don't seem to know about it!)

Err...how do you keep it from decomposing?

Store in a cooled container, (5C/41F), see: http://www.hydrogen-peroxide.us/chemical-mfg-storage/AIAA-2005-4551_Long_Term_Storability_of_Hydrogen_Peroxide.pdf, paragraph XI, page 8;

"In addition, a second set of drums containing 90% hydrogen peroxide have been in storage at 5 deg. Celsius for over 17 years and have been recently measured at 90.5%. This demonstrates that at 5 deg. Celsius that essentially no decomposition occurred for 17 years." (Compared to LOX at around -118.5C/-181.3F)

I'd have thought SOMEONE would have discovered this little factiod before then considering how many programs worked with peroxide over the years.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Archibald

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #83 on: 04/09/2019 02:46 pm »
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ty-bonte-6201898

was wondering if Blue Origin BE-2 that used peroxide was related to Beal Aerospace in any way. Well, look at the above CV. While SpaceX   took McGregor from Beal, Bezos might have been interested in their peroxide engines.
Han shot first and Gwynne Shotwell !

Offline libra

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #84 on: 04/09/2019 05:32 pm »
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ty-bonte-6201898

was wondering if Blue Origin BE-2 that used peroxide was related to Beal Aerospace in any way. Well, look at the above CV. While SpaceX   took McGregor from Beal, Bezos might have been interested in their peroxide engines.

and here is another one !

https://www.linkedin.com/in/waltmccleery

And another one... Beal & Blue...

https://www.linkedin.com/in/hdwysong

Boom, straight out to Blue Origin after leaving Beal !  :o

so I'm left wondering, is Blue Origin a bastard child of Beal Aerospace ? un-be-lievable. Jeff Bezos, you naughty boy, you didn't told us about this !


Offline Lar

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #85 on: 04/09/2019 06:11 pm »
Small community. People move around. Nothing sinister I don't think.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #86 on: 04/10/2019 09:29 am »
Looking back, Beal Aerospace had allot of Issues with there program

Biggest one was crazy idea to build a launch pad on Sombrero Island in Anguilla,
and to mass-produce launch vehicles in the Virgin Islands.

oh the environmentalists have aggressive opposed those plans

That Island is part of the British overseas territory of Anguilla.


Means Beal Aerospace had to make a deal with British government in order to get use rights (unlikely)
Next that Island is dead rock in ocean, a launch pad would be hit hard by Hurricanes here
Also to install rocket building infrastructure on Virgin island would be extremely expensive and logistic nightmare.

Had Beal Aerospace stick to USA for rocket building and used existent launch pads or build one in Texas.
They would have chance to get a launch
like SpaceX or Rocket Lab (last are USA & New Zealand join-venture) 


Another issue was Beal Aerospace had no working product to show investors or Clients
Had they build suborbital rocket or Beal-1 for small Satellite für Pentagon or University
They had gain customers early and the could finance Beal-2

Final problem was that the Beal rocket to be manufactured from lightweight composite materials
what in early 2000s was very expensive
had they stick to aluminum production cost could lower (yes i know with Payload losses)
they could manufacture the rockets much cheaper
« Last Edit: 04/10/2019 10:30 am by Michel Van »

Offline Archibald

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #87 on: 04/10/2019 10:36 am »
at some point they wanted to launch BA2 from LC-20 at The Cape ?
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Offline HMXHMX

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Re: What if Beal had been successful?
« Reply #88 on: 04/11/2019 11:32 pm »
Looking back, Beal Aerospace had allot of Issues with there program

Biggest one was crazy idea to build a launch pad on Sombrero Island in Anguilla,
and to mass-produce launch vehicles in the Virgin Islands.

oh the environmentalists have aggressive opposed those plans

That Island is part of the British overseas territory of Anguilla.


Means Beal Aerospace had to make a deal with British government in order to get use rights (unlikely)
Next that Island is dead rock in ocean, a launch pad would be hit hard by Hurricanes here
Also to install rocket building infrastructure on Virgin island would be extremely expensive and logistic nightmare.

Had Beal Aerospace stick to USA for rocket building and used existent launch pads or build one in Texas.
They would have chance to get a launch
like SpaceX or Rocket Lab (last are USA & New Zealand join-venture) 


Another issue was Beal Aerospace had no working product to show investors or Clients
Had they build suborbital rocket or Beal-1 for small Satellite für Pentagon or University
They had gain customers early and the could finance Beal-2

Final problem was that the Beal rocket to be manufactured from lightweight composite materials
what in early 2000s was very expensive
had they stick to aluminum production cost could lower (yes i know with Payload losses)
they could manufacture the rockets much cheaper

Andy is and was worth billions; he had no need for outside investors and wouldn't have accepted any even if someone offered to invest.  Aluminum wouldn't work for a pressure fed rocket, either.

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