SpaceX Dragon XL

[Jim]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

[Jim]

Will the payments to SpaceX be increased to account for the ~20% inflation that has happened between contract award and now? It seems a little unfair to make SpaceX eat the inflation since neither the 3 year delay nor the recent high inflation appear to be SpaceX's fault.

There are adjustments for delays.

[Zed_Noir]

Makes me wonder if HALO+PPE is getting too close to getting overweight that they had no choice but to proceed with Dragon XL for mass offload in case they blew their margin?

I posted it in the launch thread a while back, but according to Stephen Clark earlier this year, the HALO-PPE stack is approaching 18 tons. There have been whispers for years that that stack is overweight, and moving at least initial supplies + maybe some non-essential internal pieces to dragon XL or even to launch on HLS would be an option.

With delays of the Artemis II through Artemis IV missions. Wonder if it is too late to go back to separate Falcon Heavy launches for the HALO and PPE modules. Since the likelihood that the integrated HALO & PPE stack will have further mass growth with the usual requirement changes that NASA seem to have with most programs is almost a certainty. It will also not required the need to offload mass to a Dragon XL from the bloated integrated stack.

[DanClemmensen]

Makes me wonder if HALO+PPE is getting too close to getting overweight that they had no choice but to proceed with Dragon XL for mass offload in case they blew their margin?

I posted it in the launch thread a while back, but according to Stephen Clark earlier this year, the HALO-PPE stack is approaching 18 tons. There have been whispers for years that that stack is overweight, and moving at least initial supplies + maybe some non-essential internal pieces to dragon XL or even to launch on HLS would be an option.

With delays of the Artemis II through Artemis IV missions. Wonder if it is too late to go back to separate Falcon Heavy launches for the HALO and PPE modules. Since the likelihood that the integrated HALO & PPE stack will have further mass growth with the usual requirement changes that NASA seem to have with most programs is almost a certainty. It will also not required the need to offload mass to a Dragon XL from the bloated integrated stack.

The current mission plan depends on PPE to use its thrusters to take PPE+HALO to NRHO. If they launch separately, where will they be mated? (I've lost track of the old mission concept).

[Zed_Noir]

Makes me wonder if HALO+PPE is getting too close to getting overweight that they had no choice but to proceed with Dragon XL for mass offload in case they blew their margin?

I posted it in the launch thread a while back, but according to Stephen Clark earlier this year, the HALO-PPE stack is approaching 18 tons. There have been whispers for years that that stack is overweight, and moving at least initial supplies + maybe some non-essential internal pieces to dragon XL or even to launch on HLS would be an option.

With delays of the Artemis II through Artemis IV missions. Wonder if it is too late to go back to separate Falcon Heavy launches for the HALO and PPE modules. Since the likelihood that the integrated HALO & PPE stack will have further mass growth with the usual requirement changes that NASA seem to have with most programs is almost a certainty. It will also not required the need to offload mass to a Dragon XL from the bloated integrated stack.

The current mission plan depends on PPE to use its thrusters to take PPE+HALO to NRHO. If they launch separately, where will they be mated? (I've lost track of the old mission concept).

IIRC originally both the HALO and PPE modules goes to NRHO on separate Falcon Heavy launches, then docked together. Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Easier to think of a Dragon XL as a stand in for either the HALO or PPE modules on how to get those modules to NRHO.

[clongton]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

DoD does have skin in the game. Boca Chica is where Starship is being developed and the DoD wants it. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/02/01/us-spacex-starship-missions/

[Asteroza]

Makes me wonder if HALO+PPE is getting too close to getting overweight that they had no choice but to proceed with Dragon XL for mass offload in case they blew their margin?

I posted it in the launch thread a while back, but according to Stephen Clark earlier this year, the HALO-PPE stack is approaching 18 tons. There have been whispers for years that that stack is overweight, and moving at least initial supplies + maybe some non-essential internal pieces to dragon XL or even to launch on HLS would be an option.

With delays of the Artemis II through Artemis IV missions. Wonder if it is too late to go back to separate Falcon Heavy launches for the HALO and PPE modules. Since the likelihood that the integrated HALO & PPE stack will have further mass growth with the usual requirement changes that NASA seem to have with most programs is almost a certainty. It will also not required the need to offload mass to a Dragon XL from the bloated integrated stack.

The current mission plan depends on PPE to use its thrusters to take PPE+HALO to NRHO. If they launch separately, where will they be mated? (I've lost track of the old mission concept).

IIRC originally both the HALO and PPE modules goes to NRHO on separate Falcon Heavy launches, then docked together. Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Easier to think of a Dragon XL as a stand in for either the HALO or PPE modules on how to get those modules to NRHO.

Wait, is that implying a HALO+DXL and a PPE+DXL stack set, or launching a DXL to loiter in parking orbit before a HALO or PPE shows up to be chased, docked with, then transferred to NRHO?

[Star One]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

DoD does have skin in the game. Boca Chica is where Starship is being developed and the DoD wants it. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/02/01/us-spacex-starship-missions/

Why do people keep recycling these nebulous reports on the matter. I’d take Jim’s word over yet another article claiming some inside track on the DOD’s thinking.

[Timber Micka]

Makes me wonder if HALO+PPE is getting too close to getting overweight that they had no choice but to proceed with Dragon XL for mass offload in case they blew their margin?

I posted it in the launch thread a while back, but according to Stephen Clark earlier this year, the HALO-PPE stack is approaching 18 tons. There have been whispers for years that that stack is overweight, and moving at least initial supplies + maybe some non-essential internal pieces to dragon XL or even to launch on HLS would be an option.

With delays of the Artemis II through Artemis IV missions. Wonder if it is too late to go back to separate Falcon Heavy launches for the HALO and PPE modules. Since the likelihood that the integrated HALO & PPE stack will have further mass growth with the usual requirement changes that NASA seem to have with most programs is almost a certainty. It will also not required the need to offload mass to a Dragon XL from the bloated integrated stack.

The current mission plan depends on PPE to use its thrusters to take PPE+HALO to NRHO. If they launch separately, where will they be mated? (I've lost track of the old mission concept).

IIRC originally both the HALO and PPE modules goes to NRHO on separate Falcon Heavy launches, then docked together. Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Easier to think of a Dragon XL as a stand in for either the HALO or PPE modules on how to get those modules to NRHO.

Wait, is that implying a HALO+DXL and a PPE+DXL stack set, or launching a DXL to loiter in parking orbit before a HALO or PPE shows up to be chased, docked with, then transferred to NRHO?

The original plan was for HALO to launch with a modified Cygnus service module for lunar capture and docking operations with the PPE. Other modules would then be co-manifested during SLS 1B launches, just as in the current plan.
My guess is that part of the weight issue comes from converting the Cygnus pressurized cargo module to an ISS-like Node Module. Around Y2K, the Russians wanted to convert the spherical section of the FGB-2 (Nauka) into a Node module, instead of building a Node from scratch. FGB-2 would have ended up being overweight, so they ended up building the Prichal Node module.
Docking/berthing hardware weights a lot.

[woods170]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

DoD does have skin in the game. Boca Chica is where Starship is being developed and the DoD wants it. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/02/01/us-spacex-starship-missions/

Why do people keep recycling these nebulous reports on the matter. I’d take Jim’s word over yet another article claiming some inside track on the DOD’s thinking.

Referring to Aviation Week as "nebulous reports" does not do justice to the people working there.

[Jim]

Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Not HALO.

[DanClemmensen]

Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Not HALO.

Does HALO by itself have any sort of attitude adjustment or stabilization? If not, then how could PPE dock to it?

[yg1968]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

DoD does have skin in the game. Boca Chica is where Starship is being developed and the DoD wants it. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/02/01/us-spacex-starship-missions/

Why do people keep recycling these nebulous reports on the matter. I’d take Jim’s word over yet another article claiming some inside track on the DOD’s thinking.

Referring to Aviation Week as "nebulous reports" does not do justice to the people working there.

I am not sure about that, the context of the statement is important here:

https://twitter.com/rocketrepreneur/status/1753159337453723950

[RedLineTrain]

DoD has very little skin in the Starship game.  Jim is probably right.  But I believe that it should have more.  The DoD is a conservative organization that has an immense amount of inertia to taking on new methods of warfighting.

A hardened cynic could say that it is a fossilized organization that actively tries to kill technological advances.  But I am not quite so hardened and observe that there are parts of the DoD that are somewhat more responsive.  It's not a monolithic organization.

The DoD should press the advantage that Starship represents.  I don't think the DoD should be on the backfoot, like they were with Starlink for two or three years.  Given that Starship ultimately is important for Starlink, maybe the DoD will see fit to express its interests in Starship at Starbase, like NASA has.

[Jim]

Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Not HALO.

Does HALO by itself have any sort of attitude adjustment or stabilization? If not, then how could PPE dock to it?

No.  SLS would deliver it.

[Jim]

DoD has very little skin in the Starship game.  Jim is probably right.  But I believe that it should have more.

no.  Not untfil Starship stops morphing and finishes development.

[DanClemmensen]

Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Not HALO.

Does HALO by itself have any sort of attitude adjustment or stabilization? If not, then how could PPE dock to it?

No.  SLS would deliver it.

Do you mean Orion? For SLS to provide attitude control, EUS would need to enter NRHO. At least for I-HAB, I thought Orion docked to I-HAB while I-HAB was still connected to EUS
     https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Artemis_IV_Mission_profile_as_of_April_2022.jpg

[woods170]

Both modules has orbital adjustment thruster systems.

Not HALO.

Does HALO by itself have any sort of attitude adjustment or stabilization? If not, then how could PPE dock to it?

No.  SLS would deliver it.

To quote yourself Jim:

Wrong.

The original plan for HALO was that it would be launched on a commercial launch vehicle which would put it thru TLI. In fact, that was one of three reasons, specifically mentioned by NASA in its "Justification for Other Than Full and Open Competition" document, for selecting NG as HALO contractor in July 2019.

HALO was to be equipped with a detachable Cygnus service module. So, as such, HALO would in fact have orbital adjustment thrusters, albeit of the detachable type. The plan was that HALO/Cygnus-SM would perform the docking with the PPE in NRHO. After which the Cygnus-SM would detach and move itself into a graveyard orbit.

There never was a concrete plan to have HALO delivered to NRHO by SLS.

The plan to launch HALO with an attached Cygnus-SM on a commercial launcher became irrelevant when NASA, in mid-2020, decided to dock PPE and HALO at KSC and send it up as a single payload on FH. And that has been THE PLAN ever since.

[Star One]

Can Starship even get launched at Boca Chica now?  With the litigation saying they can't close the beach. 

The litigation coming from the appeals court will be thrown out. Not being able to launch Starship from Boca Chica is unacceptable to at least two government agencies (NASA and DoD), which means that higher powers will eventually intervene.

Not really.  DOD has no skin in the game.

DoD does have skin in the game. Boca Chica is where Starship is being developed and the DoD wants it. https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/02/01/us-spacex-starship-missions/

Why do people keep recycling these nebulous reports on the matter. I’d take Jim’s word over yet another article claiming some inside track on the DOD’s thinking.

Referring to Aviation Week as "nebulous reports" does not do justice to the people working there.

I am not sure about that, the context of the statement is important here:

https://twitter.com/rocketrepreneur/status/1753159337453723950

Precisely. It’s just making an article out of a few discussions that in the grand scheme of things don’t mean much at this stage.

[Emmettvonbrown]

Here's is my 2cts (for what it's worth).

As a F9 & FH user the Air Force is - quite logically - closely following Starship development (like everyone else !). So far however they toys with ideas to use it someday - when it will have matured enough (two years ? three years ?)

They have noted its payload to orbit is right between a C-17 and a C-5 (80 mt and 120 mt, respectively) so they are daydreaming about ultra fast cargo transportation.

But nothing really serious so far.

They are are the level of "throw ideas at the wall, see what's stick".