Author Topic: Astronauts and math  (Read 19504 times)

Offline Wigles

  • Member
  • Posts: 52
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #20 on: 01/24/2015 07:06 pm »
Indeed. Armstrong's experience from fighter aircraft in recovering from a spin did save his life during the Gemini 8 & Agena docking incident. Non test pilots would likely not have recovered as quickly and would probably have passed out and died.

Really?  I learned spin recovery when I was flying and had to demonstrate it on my flight test.  (Glider pilots learn stuff power pilots stay away from).  I think Armstrong's dealing with the G8 problem had more to do with shutting down the recalcitrant system and switching on the re-entry mode, not "stick forward and opposite rudder".

While commercial pilots tend to stay away, in one of the military pilot training units there is an unofficial competition to see how many fully developed rotations a pilot can do without breaking their airspace. Last I heard the record was over 20.

I suppose that familiarity with managing complex and disorienting situations and managing your vehicle in 3 dimensions is one reason military pilots are selected.

Back to the OP; I don't know any astronauts, but I do know test pilots most of whom have engineering/science qualifications and they need to know the concepts/processes but rarely actually do the actual math. It also helps the team understand each other when the pilot and engineer can speak the same "language".

Offline Nomadd

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8840
  • Lower 48
  • Liked: 60431
  • Likes Given: 1305
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #21 on: 01/24/2015 07:42 pm »
Aldrin was capable, but I thought I remembered him saying in an interview that he was awed by Armstrong's ability to run the math in his head regarding distance and fuel usage on Eagle's unexpectedly long decent.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline nlec

  • Member
  • Posts: 57
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 51
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #22 on: 02/02/2015 12:33 pm »
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/01/31/international-space-station-astronaut-air-force-terry-virts-spacewalk/22545423/

Quote
Piloting fighter jets taught Virts how to prioritize tasks on a moment's notice, to think on his feet, to communicate quickly and succinctly.

When it came to being an astronaut, "it was probably the most important training foundation I had," a literally buoyant Virts said in the microgravity of the space station Wednesday.

He floated between fellow flight engineer Samantha Cristoforetti and Expedition 42 Commander Butch Wilmore for an interview with Air Force Times broadcast live on NASA TV.

Like Virts, Cristoforetti and Wilmore are military pilots. Wilmore flew tactical jets for the U.S. Navy; Cristoforetti piloted fighters for the Italian air force.

The experience put Cristoferetti in the habit of handling complex machines in operational environments. It also taught her self-discipline, perseverance and to put the goals of the team before the goals of oneself.

As a naval aviator, Wilmore said, he grew accustomed to stressful situations. That made him all the better at handling them.

Offline TomH

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2938
  • Vancouver, WA
  • Liked: 1868
  • Likes Given: 909
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #23 on: 02/02/2015 07:31 pm »
If DC makes it to flight some day, I would expect to see test pilots with PhDs in Aeronautical Engineering. Even with computers flying the craft, my supposition would be they'd want a pilot eho understood the aerodynamics in great detail at the controls in case the computers went down. I know a capsule can be steered to some degree, but I doubt it would matter as much as DC.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37441
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21451
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #24 on: 02/02/2015 07:41 pm »
Most Test pilots don't have MS, much less PHD.  Flight time is more important.  And the amount of education doesn't amount to squat when the computers go  down, the vehicle is unflyable.  Also, again, flight time is more valuable than phd.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2015 07:44 pm by Jim »

Offline DarkenedOne

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Liked: 58
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #25 on: 02/02/2015 08:32 pm »
Look its a competition its that simple.  Given how popular going into space is, and how few actually get to go I would say that getting selected to be an astronaut is more competitive then getting into the NFL.

Sure one could argue that an astronaut flying to the ISS does not need a PhD or a masters degree.  We could definitely argue they do not need much flight time considering that they do not do much flying these days.  If they are there doing simple maintenance then we could even argue they do not need a college degree.  What is needed in an absolute sense is not relevant. 

NASA gets many thousands of applications for the very small number of seats it owns on the ISS.  They get to choose the best of the best.  That means people in the best health, with the best education, and with the most amount of relevant experience.  They probably have tones of applicants who graduated from the great universities with a large amount of relevant experience.   

As far as how much "math" do astronauts us on a daily basis I would probably say none.  It makes no sense for NASA to put someone into space for 50 million plus dollars just to have them spend their time doing intellectual work that could be done by someone on the ground. 
« Last Edit: 02/02/2015 08:37 pm by DarkenedOne »

Offline IRobot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1312
  • Portugal & Germany
  • Liked: 310
  • Likes Given: 272
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #26 on: 02/02/2015 09:40 pm »
I think the importance of Astronauts-Engineers vs Astronauts-Read_the_checklist will increase proportionally with the communication distance to Earth.

A 4-25 minutes delay in communications between Earth and Mars (33-49min to Jupiter) means that Astronauts will have to rely on their judgement more often.

Offline erioladastra

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Liked: 222
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #27 on: 02/02/2015 11:48 pm »
Also, occasionally (due to procedural errors, mostly) one of the big computers in Houston or Moscow will send up a wildly incorrect update to, say, a spacecraft's navigation state.  Sometimes it's useful for an astronaut to be able, just by looking at a given set of numbers, to see that they are not within a reasonable order of magnitude of an expected value.  Astronauts who have no clue what the correct numbers should look like are less useful as the final check on the reasonability of numbers passed up from the ground.

The astronauts don't see the numbers, it is a direct file transfer

These days, yeah, for the most part.  Though some things are still sent up via teleprinter that include "crunched" numbers.  I admit that I'm more of a buff of early spaceflight, when maneuver pads, etc., were frequently read up to the crews on the radio.  During Gemini and Apollo, the test pilots on the crews (a majority of them, in fact) were able to, and often did, ask for explanations of the orders of magnitude of various planned maneuvers.

However, you're absolutely right in re the standard role of the astronaut in manned spaceflight -- he/she tends to be a "cookbook" equipment operator, who through training has a general understanding of the operational limitations of the equipment he/she operates and who follows a checklist religiously to perform the intended functions.

I always did find it interesting that NASA would hire astronauts with all of this flight experience and then set them to tasks that, on the whole, an average 14-year-old would be able to easily learn and master.  (I especially found this interesting when I was in fact a 14-year-old, and determined that I could probably learn to operate the Apollo spacecraft with as much accuracy and professionalism as the test pilots...)

Actually this is very incorrect.  First of all, astronauts use a fair amount of math - though generally it is on the ground to understand the principals of the systems, whether it be orbital mechanics of a visiting vehicle or water levels.  Yes, in space procedures and checklist are the main way to execute an activity.  But you still need to understand the big picture.  yes a 14 year old can read the procedure and push the buttons on the computer but if there is an error in the procedure or the system doesn't react as needed, the operator needs to understand the why.  A 14 year old won't.  Another key thing is that pilots have learned a great deal of resource and crises management.  That skill alone is probably one of the most critical skills to have.  While a PhD may never use the actually training, they are using the general skills of problem solving.

So while the math used on orbit is pretty basic on a day-to-day basis, the actual math skills are pretty advanced to do the job.

Offline joema

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #28 on: 02/05/2015 11:27 am »
....astronauts use a fair amount of math - though generally it is on the ground to understand the principals of the systems, whether it be orbital mechanics of a visiting vehicle or water levels.  Yes, in space procedures and checklist are the main way to execute an activity...So while the math used on orbit is pretty basic on a day-to-day basis, the actual math skills are pretty advanced to do the job.

The OP question was ISS astronauts using math on orbit, and by extension other in-flight uses of math. Obviously this is limited for several reasons:

(1) In time critical or life critical situations you don't want any pilot doing math

(2) Starting with Skylab an HP-35 calculator was taken: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-35, then on Apollo-Soyuz an HP-65: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-65 

The HP-65 was programmable, so in the rare case this might be needed the astronaut wouldn't be looking at a formula, it would already be programmed in. Like the Apollo Guidance Computer, it would be about entering numbers accurately. These were all backup only.

Today a smartphone or even wrist watch can do these in the rare case they'd be needed.

Had these been available on Apollo 13, Jim Lovell wouldn't have been scribbling calculations by hand. See his actual notes here: http://gizmodo.com/5863778/the-math-that-saved-apollo-13

Astronauts are generally from an aviation or technical discipline where they are familiar with math, but on an actual mission they aren't solving differential equations by hand or anything like that. What level of math is needed? As the Jack Swigert character said in the movie Apollo 13: "I can add".

Offline Henchman21

  • Member
  • Posts: 28
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 20
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #29 on: 06/30/2015 06:30 pm »
Alot of astronauts today are college graduates with at least a bachelors or maybe a masters
I honestly could probably get the education and physical stuff out of the way but even then I could never be an astronaut because of R/G colorblindness.I personally think it is a stupid rule that bars pilots  from being colorblind, I can drive just fine and I KNOW the difference between red and green but they still would never let me fly let alone become as test pilot.

Currently going to community college trying to boost my GPA enough that I could either get into a good school, or if I'm lucky enough intern at Spacex  then go off to college.

Would love to help be part of NASA's Mars program. If I could work with Spacex or on SLS It would be a dream come true

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37441
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21451
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #30 on: 06/30/2015 06:33 pm »

Currently going to community college trying to boost my GPA enough that I could either get into a good school, or if I'm lucky enough intern at Spacex  then go off to college.


Interns are college engineering students.

Offline dks13827

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Phoenix
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Astronauts and math
« Reply #31 on: 07/02/2015 01:25 am »
The Gemini 8 crew actually were pretty close to being killed.  It is not like a spin in a light plane where the danger of blackout is not high.  Any stuck thruster in space causes an accelerating rotation, and in this case in more than 1 axis.  This can VERY EASILY cause LOC.  It's in Dave Scott's book, for one example.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1