Is it possible?
"If you remove SLS from the mission, there is no reason for Orion to go around the moon."Yes there is. We want to go to the Moon (starting with around it). That's the reason for all of this.
I can’t do the maths right now, but wouldn’t FH expendable put Orion in a high earth orbit, then a second expendable FH with docking ring as a payload have more than enough fuel to dock and take the Orion from heo to tli? - it costs twice as much but is still relatively cheap
Orion is too heavy, even for a fully expendable Falcon 9. I'd rather see the 'Lunar Tourist' mission doing the circumlunar flight with 2x Falcon 9, Block 5's - one is partly reusable and one is fully expendable. Expendable places an upper stage with 20 tons or more of propellants left aboard near a previously launched Dragon 2 and crew. If the Dragon had increased propellant supplies, either aboard the main prop systems or as a 'Propulsion Pallet'tm carried in the Trunk, then there should be enough delta-v to proceed to the Moon.But sadly; probably no one is going to turn the Dragon into a 'Command & Service' module. That task is still the modus-operandi of Orion. Orion will never launch on Falcon 9 or Heavy. It would be better and more plausible to imagine Orion being launched on the ULA Vulcan, for the mission you want to discuss. A dual launch of the Vulcan; one with the 26 ton Orion and the second, a 6x SRM version with the Centaur V stage atop it. The Centaur has a docking port on it - Orion docks with this and the crew endures an 'eyeballs out' Trans-lunar injection burn. Which was, of course, how Constellation was going to do it.I've been imagining an 8 or 10x solid booster, enhanced Vulcan that could do a lunar mission in 2x launches of such a booster. One Vulcan Enhanced sends up the Orion and a 20+plus ton lander. The Orion does an Apollo-style transposition and docking maneuver that extracts the Lander from the upper stage of the first Vulcan. The second Vulcan Enhanced places the Centaur V/ACES Earth Departure Stage nearby the two spacecraft. The Orion/Lander duo dock with the EDS - Lander's 'tail first' and burn for the Moon. Three days or so later, the rocket stage places the combined spacecraft into lunar orbit.But the mission masses for the Lunar flights could be relaxed by using 4x launches of the 'standard' 6x solid booster Vulcan. Launch 1 - 25-30 ton Lunar Lander in Earth parking orbit. Launch 2 - Earth Departure Stage. Lander and Departure Stage unite and burn for the Moon. The Departure Stage inserts the Lander into Lunar orbit. The Lander circularizes it's own orbit.Launch 3 - Earth Departure Stage launched into LEO. Launch 4 - 26 ton Orion launches and docks with EDS. They depart for the Moon and the Stage inserts the Orion into lunar orbit. The crewed Orion docks with the Lander and the landing mission begins...
Quote from: Phil Stooke on 03/01/2018 05:46 am"If you remove SLS from the mission, there is no reason for Orion to go around the moon."Yes there is. We want to go to the Moon (starting with around it). That's the reason for all of this.That makes the assumption that Orion is an important step in any plan back to the moon.
...This thread's scenario would dovetail nicely(?) with another thread that discusses a Falcon Heavy upper stage upgrade; such as widening the stage to 5.2 meters to match the payload fairing, and converting it to use subchilled LOX/CH4 and a single Raptor engine. That would give Falcon Heavy a kick-ass capability. A fallback compromise would be to merely stretch the stage's propellant tanks again and upgrade the Merlin 1D Vacuum some more. I doubt that'd be enough, though.*Isn't there a thread discussing all this round here, somewhere?! A Falcon Heavy with the methane-fueled Raptor upper stage might push more than 30 tons to TLI. Or am I overestimating that figure? The LOX/RP1 stretched version with Merlin upgrade might reach 26 tons to TLI. Or am I underestimating that figure?
1. Does anybogy knows how much F9 block5 can launch to LEO?I could not find ... 2. Let us launch F9H to LEO with NO Paylod. To that F9H upper stage on LEO docks some spacecraft ... what maximum mass can that stage launch towards the Moon?
I doubt those Falcon Heavy on-orbit delivery figures. The official figure is 63,800 kg to orbit - the mass of the stage combined with it's residual propellant should get to be a little more than that; since it would not be pushing against payload gravity losses, still...