If the ISS gets extended to 2030, Europe could take the work done so far on Orion Service Module, integrate it with a capsule/spaceplane and use this system for both crew and cargo deliveries on Ariane 6. Work on ATV has already given Europe autonomous docking capabilities. A scheme like this would push up the launch rate of Ariane 6, pay for European use of the ISS and reduce dependency on Russia. Such a system could even potentially visit the future Chinese Space Station.On a minor note, it's kind of embarrassing Europe lacks an indigenous human spaceflight capability. It's not a money problem, collectively European states have a GDP equivalent to the United States and far greater than China, Russia or India. It's not a technical problem either, the know-how exists in Europe to achieve this and even greater things. If it really wanted, Europe could have a lunar base with a completely reusable architecture based on refueling upper stages of Ariane-6 sized vehicles and ISRU. What seems to be lacking is the will. Part of this might be due to its terrible legacy with colonialism, which is understandable: European empires committed massive crimes against humanity all around the world and anything that sounds expansionist or colonial has a bad reputation on the continent. Whatever the block is, I hope it is overcome and the peaceful exploration and settlement of space becomes a driving force in Europe in the near future. Who knows, perhaps even Space Solar Power would offer Europe in the future a way to ween itself off Russian gas :/
Maybe ESA/ Europe can spend it's money on Station modules aka a destination for the crew to go to. Nasa is spending tens of billions on the development of SLS and Orion but doesn't have funding left to develop moon landers; moon modules; moon orbital stations or even a replacement of the ISS. I fear it's far more likely that the permanent human presence in space ends than that one other human being will set a foot on the moon.I think doing unmanned science in a LEO spacestation/reconfigurable pressurized satellite is the fourth most important activity that can be done in space. Humans involvement in this creates oportunities to do more, but at huge cost. Space exploration should be done with robots!!! Far to dangerous and expansive to do it with humans. I also see far less use in a moon station(moon village) than in a LEO station. That's my opinion (yes, I'm not very optimistic)
unless things change I agree human spaceflight in the west is dying...
the GOOD NEWS at least in my world...is that I think change is coming
Besides the ATV derived European Service module is far to heavy.
it makes no real sense for them to spend a lot of Euros on a vehicle...when they could go to Boeing or SpaceX (and within 5 years BO) and plop down not a lot of cash and put people on the bird. the countries there are not ego driven like say the US or Chinese or Indians are.
If the ISS gets extended to 2030, Europe could take the work done so far on Orion Service Module, integrate it with a capsule/spaceplane and use this system for both crew and cargo deliveries on Ariane 6.
Change is a constant, so your statement is meaningless. It's like saying "I think the sun will rise tomorrow! "
Quote from: Rik ISS-fan on 09/14/2018 01:40 pmBesides the ATV derived European Service module is far to heavy. It isn't too heavy, It can act as a rocket's third stage, with a lighter capsule, it can probably easily do 2km/s+ or nearly a quarter of LEO dV. Even Zefiro 9 on the a small launcher like Vega masses ~12,000 kg. It would be little different than Shuttle where the OMS did the final orbital insertion.
Quote from: ncb1397 on 09/14/2018 05:21 pmQuote from: Rik ISS-fan on 09/14/2018 01:40 pmBesides the ATV derived European Service module is far to heavy. It isn't too heavy, It can act as a rocket's third stage, with a lighter capsule, it can probably easily do 2km/s+ or nearly a quarter of LEO dV. Even Zefiro 9 on the a small launcher like Vega masses ~12,000 kg. It would be little different than Shuttle where the OMS did the final orbital insertion.The T/W is way too bad , it practically only works after reaching orbit. Could be used for going from LEO to GTO, but not for reaching LEO.ATV has 1960 kilonewtons of thrust. This means about 200 kilograms at earth gravity. With mass of 20 tonnes this becomes T/W of 1/100.
Arianspaces's CEO is probably just trying to drum up some business.
Then why are they building Ariane 6?
Interesting... My humble but honest opinion, as a deep supporter of a unified Europe is:(1) This is highly unlikely to happen. Europe is in a deep identity crisis, has many urgent issues to sort out and I see very hard to build a critical mass around such an (expensive) idea. (2) Said that, I would really welcome such an effort. Europe must become independent as much as possible in any field. We cannot depend anymore on others for basic issues like defense, space, the internet, etc. Recent developments show that while equal collaboration is still possible with other superpowers, be forced to depend on others is a risk, that may become very high as the international situation is very unstable, unpredictable and deteriorating.
Quote from: Coastal Ron on 09/14/2018 03:43 pmQuote from: TripleSeven on 09/14/2018 02:57 pmthe GOOD NEWS at least in my world...is that I think change is coming Change is a constant, so your statement is meaningless. It's like saying "I think the sun will rise tomorrow! "I dont agree change is constant. the US space program has seen very little change since Apollo.
Quote from: TripleSeven on 09/14/2018 02:57 pmthe GOOD NEWS at least in my world...is that I think change is coming Change is a constant, so your statement is meaningless. It's like saying "I think the sun will rise tomorrow! "
for what it is worth the sun coming up in the morning is not change...it is constant.
I see that coming in human spaceflight...its not going to happen over night,, but it is coming in my view. all events are pointing to a "cycle" shift in the US.
I wonder if this announcement has anything to do India's announcement of their crewed space program. In any case, ESA should have had a capsule a long time ago. The service module from Orion should be fine to use. Just shorten it, so that it carries less propellant for Earth orbit use and add a 4 m diameter capsule. Abort can be done SpaceX style. Time to dust off those old studies.http://www.astronautix.com/m/multi-rolercoverycapsule.htmlhttp://www.astronautix.com/e/esaacrv.htmlhttp://www.astronautix.com/c/ctv.html
Manned spaceflight is not a strategic thing. Having your own independent access to space for strategic (and thus unmanned) assets IS however. Hence why Europe has Ariane, has its own weather sats, has its own Earth observation program, has its own data relay sats, has its own spysats, has its own maritime support sats, has its own GPS equivalent, etc. etc.