Starship launch bids

[rakaydos]

What is Elon's plan for an LAS for Starship?

Elon's plan is that starship IS the Launch abort system.

For the moonship, in theory the waist engines provide an independant  propulsion system that could be used for abort, but the system would be difficult to implement in any starship with a heat shield.

[novo2044]

I'm curious as to how Starship will handle the constellation market.

Obviously, its incredible payload capacity would allow for a lot of satellites to go into orbit at once, but when I was reading about what Peter Beck was saying in regards to Neutron, he said these Super Heavy launchers aren't as fit for the constellation market as it may seem:

"We’ve listened to our customers and the message is clear - biggest doesn’t always mean best when it comes to constellation deployment. Efficiently building the mega constellations of the future requires launching multiple satellites in batches to different orbital planes. It’s a requirement that all too often sees large launch vehicles fly with payloads well below their full lift capacity, which is an incredibly expensive and inefficient way to build out a satellite constellation."

So it's an interesting take. Obviously, the benefit of Starship is that even though if it carries significantly below payload capacity, all stages of the vehicle are recovered and reused. But is it "efficient" using a vehicle of this size to do that?

And its also worth noting that Starship will mainly concentrate on Starlink, and the above point Peter is making, isn't directly applicable for this - but I just thought it's an interesting point in regards to potential constellation customers for Starship.

As long as they are cost competitive, which they should be for literally everything if 2nd stage reuse is successful, inefficient launches will not be a problem if for no other reason than Musk wants 1000's of launches for the system to both refine the engineering and prove human safety. 

100 launches for a rocket system has been achieved by a select handful.  Musk wants that or more for individual Starships, which would completely change how we view rocket safety and man rating.  I'm actually really curious how various agencies and insurance companies will view it.

[philw1776]

for it to achieve orbit by itself it must leave the aerosurfaces and heatshield tiles on the ground so a complete starship cannot achieve orbit without sh

do you have a link handy?

No link but assuming a stripped down Starship without legs and ~10 ton TPS masses 80 tons (optimistic IMO), sea level raptors and zero payload I get under 8.3 Km/sec. Not enough for orbit.
Elon's statement is years old and we know he's an optimist.

[novo2044]

for it to achieve orbit by itself it must leave the aerosurfaces and heatshield tiles on the ground so a complete starship cannot achieve orbit without sh

do you have a link handy?

No link but assuming a stripped down Starship without legs and ~10 ton TPS masses 80 tons (optimistic IMO), sea level raptors and zero payload I get under 8.3 Km/sec. Not enough for orbit.
Elon's statement is years old and we know he's an optimist.

If you fudge the size of the tanks/nose, strip out headers, flaps, TPS, use thinner steel, push the Raptors to their limit...  1200 wet, 80 dry, ISP 350 gets you around 9.3 doesn't it?

[DreamyPickle]

This thread has gone quite far off the rails, it was meant to discuss commercial contracts for Starship specifically.

This article already confirms that they bid the Starship+Super Heavy combination, not any SSTO version.

[su27k]

At what point of maturity is Starship already a better alternative to SLS?

Depends on the payload:

1) Orion? No chance. You can't stack it on top, and putting it inside is pointless (still no LAS). Once you accept Starship as the crew launch and return vehicle, then not only are you using an alternative to SLS + Orion, but an alternative to the entire architecture of Moon & Mars exploration proposed thus far.

2) Payloads that require ICPS or EUS as an earth-departure stage? Also no, unless you develop a stage that can be carried internally and deployed from the chomper, or if you pay SpaceX to develop the notional Starkicker, or pay them to expend a Starship.

3) Big payloads to Earth orbit (or to a transfer orbit from which the payload will propel itself)? Yes, Starship works very well here, though almost certainly needs a propellant resupply launch for deploying to higher orbits.

In terms of SLS announced payloads? Those all fit in category 1 (Artemis missions) or category 2 (Europa Clipper before being moved off of SLS), so none. That leaves you with concept missions like LUVOIR that could be accomplished with either launch vehicle. That's not a slight on Starship, more that SLS scope of utility has always been very limited.

1) and 2) can be easily solved with an expendable Starship upper stage, which SpaceX already proposed to USAF in the EELV Phase 2 LSA competition.

[edzieba]

1) and 2) can be easily solved with an expendable Starship upper stage, which SpaceX already proposed to USAF in the EELV Phase 2 LSA competition.

SpaceX only bid Starship for Phase 1 Class C missions. Phase 1 Class A & B, and Phase 2 Classes A, B, and C, were Falcon 9 & Falcon Heavy only.
Their Phase 1 proposal was never released, so I'm not sure where the idea they bid an expendable Starship variant comes from.

[su27k]

1) and 2) can be easily solved with an expendable Starship upper stage, which SpaceX already proposed to USAF in the EELV Phase 2 LSA competition.

SpaceX only bid Starship for Phase 1 Class C missions. Phase 1 Class A & B, and Phase 2 Classes A, B, and C, were Falcon 9 & Falcon Heavy only.
Their Phase 1 proposal was never released, so I'm not sure where the idea they bid an expendable Starship variant comes from.

I was talking about LSA competition which they lost, not LSP which they won: SpaceX handed loss in challenge over Air Force contract

According to the order, part of SpaceX’s pitch to the Air Force included a previously unreported less-reusable version of Starship whose upper stage would not return to Earth after delivering a payload into orbit - a “substantial” design change to the rocket’s fully reusable architecture that the Air Force considered too complex of a challenge.

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1470435317270384642

Ochinero [SpaceX’s Tom Ochinero, VP of Commercial Sales]: we have been actively marketing Starship to commercial customers, and signed up some already. #WSBW


Ochinero: talking to insurers about Starship, but initial flights will be with our Starlink satellites; by the time external customers ready to fly, we’ve reduced the risk and thus premiums. #WSBW

[volker2020]

There is another possible explanation, why they did bid on a 56kg to orbit deal with Starship.

It could be a message to there investors and specifically a message to the investors of other rocket startups.

No matter how small your payload, we will get that market too, and serve it cheaper and better than you.  Having that in mind, would you invest big sums, into a company specializing in small payloads?

[su27k]

Small satellite sector should prepare for Starship

Small satellite manufacturers should prepare for the emergence of rideshare flights on the SpaceX Starship spacecraft and Super Heavy launch vehicle, according to panelists speaking Feb. 7 at the SmallSat Symposium here.

“If you are not preparing for how you’re going to launch your product on Starship and how you’re going to change your business model to work with Starship, you are going to be in trouble,” said Abhishek Tripathi, mission operations director at the University of California, Berkeley, Space Sciences Laboratory.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

I guess SpaceX won this bid

I think only Starship big enough to launch this? (Starlab has 8m diameter?)

https://twitter.com/starlab_space/status/1752694395776663876

Launch vehicle secured! 🚀 Alongside @VoyagerSH + @AirbusSpace, we are thrilled to announce we have selected @SpaceX’s Starship to launch #Starlab into #LEO. Learn more about this historic launch here:

https://voyagerspace.com/2024/01/31/starlab-space-selects-spacexs-starship-for-historic-launch/

Starlab Space Selects SpaceX’s Starship for Historic Launch
Issued by Starlab Space LLC.

Washington DC, January 31, 2024 — Starlab Space LLC (Starlab Space), the transatlantic joint venture between Voyager Space and Airbus, today announced the selection of SpaceX to launch the Starlab commercial space station to low-Earth orbit (LEO). Starship, SpaceX’s fully reusable transportation system designed to carry both crew and cargo to Earth orbit, the Moon, Mars and beyond, will launch Starlab in a single mission prior to the decommissioning of the International Space Station.

“SpaceX’s history of success and reliability led our team to select Starship to orbit Starlab,” said Dylan Taylor, Chairman and CEO, Voyager Space. “SpaceX is the unmatched leader for high-cadence launches and we are proud Starlab will be launched to orbit in a single flight by Starship.”

As a continuously crewed, free-flying space station, Starlab will serve a global customer base of space agencies, researchers, and companies, ensuring a continued human presence in LEO and a seamless transition of microgravity research from the International Space Station into the new commercial space station era. Starlab will launch on a single flight, be fully outfitted on the ground, and ready to permanently host four crew members in LEO to conduct microgravity research and advanced scientific discovery.

“Starlab’s single-launch solution continues to demonstrate not only what is possible, but how the future of commercial space is happening now,” said Tom Ochinero, Senior Vice President of Commercial Business at SpaceX. “The SpaceX team is excited for Starship to launch Starlab to support humanity’s continued presence in low-Earth orbit on our way to making life multiplanetary.”

The Starlab team has advanced through multiple program milestones over the past year, including completion of the Systems Requirements Review, System Definition Review, Human in the Loop testing, and more. Starlab Space recently announced a teaming agreement with Northrop Grumman and plans to collaborate with the European Space Agency. Additional Starlab partners include Hilton Hotels and The Ohio State University.