I'm still flabbergasted by the economics of this engine deal. If they get 20 engines for close to $1 billion, that is close to $50 million per engine. Close to $100 million for each Antares. And that is for the first stage engines only - does not include 1st stage tank, 2nd stage, or avionics.How do they expect to make money off this?
Quote from: Lars-J on 12/17/2014 06:03 pmI'm still flabbergasted by the economics of this engine deal. If they get 20 engines for close to $1 billion, that is close to $50 million per engine. Close to $100 million for each Antares. And that is for the first stage engines only - does not include 1st stage tank, 2nd stage, or avionics.How do they expect to make money off this?That's the same reason I'm assuming that the 1B figure is when they include the two extra options, or for 60 engines, which would make each pair about 35M. Add a 15M for the Castor 30XL and that's 50M in propulsion. Orbital already stated that propulsion was 70% of the LV cost, so it would mean a cost of 72M or so per launch. A much more reasonable cost. Of course, still not competitive with the Falcon 9, but good enough for the CRS2 contract.
“If all the options under the contract were exercised, the total value would be significantly less than $1 billion,” Beneski added in an email to SpaceNews. “I can’t be more precise than that.”
ULA are paying approx $20m for RD180, Aerojet quoted $20-25m for pair of AR1. I would expect a price of around $20m a pair for RD181.
Quote from: Razvan on 12/17/2014 02:09 pmhttp://spacenews.com/orbital-sciences-orders-rd-181-engines-for-antares-rocket/So, now Antares is going to be powered by RD181.What is Orbital doing with the 20 engines on contract and the other 20 engines option...They're going to exercise whatever escape clauses they have in their contract with Aerojet to minimize their losses and move on. The real question is, what is Aerojet going to do with the engines?
http://spacenews.com/orbital-sciences-orders-rd-181-engines-for-antares-rocket/So, now Antares is going to be powered by RD181.What is Orbital doing with the 20 engines on contract and the other 20 engines option...
Quote from: Lars-J on 12/17/2014 06:03 pmI'm still flabbergasted by the economics of this engine deal. If they get 20 engines for close to $1 billion, that is close to $50 million per engine. Close to $100 million for each Antares. And that is for the first stage engines only - does not include 1st stage tank, 2nd stage, or avionics.How do they expect to make money off this?Your presumption makes sense price-wise, but to buy 60 engines before you are sure you're going to get the contract??? Now, that Boeing is offering its CST100 and surely SpaceX is another bidder. Of the three I'd say Orbital is most likely the third one...That's the same reason I'm assuming that the 1B figure is when they include the two extra options, or for 60 engines, which would make each pair about 35M. Add a 15M for the Castor 30XL and that's 50M in propulsion. Orbital already stated that propulsion was 70% of the LV cost, so it would mean a cost of 72M or so per launch. A much more reasonable cost. Of course, still not competitive with the Falcon 9, but good enough for the CRS2 contract.
Also, the forum offers an ignore feature for those who wish to ignore certain posters...
If Orbital could ever develop a reasonable upper stage for Antares, then with RD-181, this could be a great GEO comsat launcher.......
I think LOX/Methane and an engine from Darma Technology or Xcor would be a good choice for a high energy upper stage.
I have to ask if RD-181s are being invoked in this contract to somehow differentiate the engines from the RD-180s that some third party controls?Otherwise, why would Orbital want untested RD-181s when the RD-180 seems to work?
The RD180 was Orbitals first choice but ULA stopped them buying RD180.
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 12/25/2014 07:55 amThe RD180 was Orbitals first choice but ULA stopped them buying RD180.Then Orbital sued and, after a number of months during which the case seemed to be going Orbital's way, Orbital and ULA seemed to have reached some agreement because Orbital withdrew the suit. RD-181 is going to essentially be a substantially throttled-back RD-191 (proven on Angara), which means that the engine likely won't be pushed toward any red line limits. - Ed Kyle
Quote from: edkyle99 on 12/26/2014 02:45 pmQuote from: TrevorMonty on 12/25/2014 07:55 amThe RD180 was Orbitals first choice but ULA stopped them buying RD180.Then Orbital sued and, after a number of months during which the case seemed to be going Orbital's way, Orbital and ULA seemed to have reached some agreement because Orbital withdrew the suit. RD-181 is going to essentially be a substantially throttled-back RD-191 (proven on Angara), which means that the engine likely won't be pushed toward any red line limits. - Ed KyleDo you know it's going to be throttle back in general or you mean before they strengthen the thrust structure.
It is going to be throttled to match AJ26 performance for the stages already completed. I suppose that some structural changes could allow slightly higher thrust, but there is little reason to increase the thrust to its maximum capability unless the stage is stretched and loaded with more propellant. - Ed Kyle
It is going to be throttled to match AJ26 performance for the stages already completed. I suppose that some structural changes could allow slightly higher thrust, but there is little reason to increase the thrust to its maximum capability unless the stage is stretched and loaded with more propellant.
Are the fuel/oxidizer tanks on the existing stages sized correctly for the -181 fuel mixture ratio?