Author Topic: Missions for Advanced SLS versions  (Read 19460 times)

Offline Hyperion5

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Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« on: 01/29/2013 08:58 pm »
I thought that since we've got a thread dedicated to the missions an SLS Bloc I could pull off, it's about time we had a thread dedicated to what the bigger advanced versions' mission possibilities.  Here's how those versions look like right now:


SLS Bloc IA
Core Stage+advanced boosters (appears to be LRBs)-upper stage
Payload to LEO: 105 mt
BEO Payload: 0 mt
Year available: 2022 (if advanced booster program is funded)

SLS Bloc IB
Core stage+8.4 m CPS (8.4 m stage with four RL-10 engines)
Payload to LEO: 118 mt
BEO Payload: 43 mt
Year available: 2019 (if upper stage is funded)

SLS Bloc II
Core stage+8.4 m CPS (from Bloc IB)+advanced boosters (LRBs)
Payload to LEO: 155 mt
BEO Payload: 61 mt
Year available: 2022 (if boosters+CPS are funded)

SLS Bloc II
Core stage+8.4 m CPS (from Bloc IB)+advanced boosters (solids)
Payload to LEO: approximately 133 mt
BEO Payload: 50 mt?
Year available: 2022 (if boosters+CPS are funded)

SLS Bloc IIA
Core stage+8.4 m J-2X stage+advanced boosters (LRBs)
Payload to LEO: 178 mt
BEO Payload: 58 mt
Year available: 2027 (if boosters+J-2X stage funded)

---------

Now personally I think if the Congressional mandate for 130 mt to LEO capability holds up, the most likely versions we'll see are the Bloc IB and Bloc II with solids.  I've already thought up a few missions the IB and Bloc II with solids would enable. 

One-launch

Apollo-style lunar surface mission
NEA mission
Launching large space station modules (2 BA-330s to EML-2)
Mission to martian orbit 
orbiter to Pluto or other outer planets
Rover missions on Mars, Europa, Titan and all over

Multiple-launch
Robust lunar surface mission
Assembly of Mars Transfer Vehicle/Martian surface mission

----

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what kind of missions a Bloc II with LRBs or a Bloc IIA would enable that the Bloc IB and Bloc II with solids would not be able to do?  Right now I really can't think of any, but perhaps I'm wrong. 

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #1 on: 01/30/2013 02:24 am »
The possibilities are endless.  Of course I'd like to see some vastly capable and advanced craft like a Europa fossil prospector or a Titan blimp.  I'd also like to see a really large telescope in solar orbit, with multiple 5m mirrors on a framework that could hold them rigidly at a great enough distance to do some serious optical interferometry.

And, I'd like to see an industrial-capacity manufacturing facility that can do real work in microgravity instead of just HS science fair experiments.
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Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #2 on: 01/30/2013 04:47 am »
The possibilities are endless.  Of course I'd like to see some vastly capable and advanced craft like a Europa fossil prospector or a Titan blimp.  I'd also like to see a really large telescope in solar orbit, with multiple 5m mirrors on a framework that could hold them rigidly at a great enough distance to do some serious optical interferometry.

And, I'd like to see an industrial-capacity manufacturing facility that can do real work in microgravity instead of just HS science fair experiments.

As it turns out, to my surprise, not only has a blimp been envisioned (why I didn't think of that with Titan's super-thick atmosphere I don't know), but JPL has envisioned a variable-buoyancy airship setting down and picking up an amphibious rover on Titan.  That sounds like a mission that could use every kilogram an SLS Bloc II has at its disposal.  Diagrams are below. 

Offline CNYMike

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #3 on: 02/06/2013 08:41 pm »
I keep wondering what could be put in LEO by just the boosters (like the F-1 powered ones) and the core stage, as two stages in parallel.  You could launch sizeable modules for a new stages once it comes time to replace ISS.
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Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #4 on: 03/19/2023 12:20 am »
Although this thread is a decade old, I happened to notice that a NASA report from October 2021 officially lists Artemis 9 as the first planned flight of the SLS Block 2 variant. Also, the Artemis program page at Wikipedia lists two additional flights for the SLS Block 2 variant, Artemis 10 and 11.

Offline Jim

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #5 on: 03/20/2023 01:24 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2023 01:25 pm by Jim »

Offline RocketJeff

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #6 on: 03/20/2023 03:13 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.
(Off topic, mods feel free to delete)

Seems like a response that ChatGPT (or one of the other AI programs) would construct.

Which makes his replys to old threads make more sense.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #7 on: 03/20/2023 03:13 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.
What is status of Block 2 upgrade.
Stilling being funded or placed on hold?

Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #8 on: 03/20/2023 05:53 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.
What is status of Block 2 upgrade.
Stilling being funded or placed on hold?
In March 2019 the NASA budget for FY 2020 proposed to cancel funds for the SLS Block 2 along with the Block 1B, but when the budget was passed by Congress, funding for the Block 2 variant was included. Although NASA has a long way to go in carrying out the first two crewed SLS flights (Artemis 2 and 3) and all flights of SLS Block 1B before proceeding to planning for Artemis 9, NASA funding for the Exploration Upper Stage that will power both the Block 1B and 2 variants means that the Block 2 variant might be receiving a bit of funding when it comes to a few of its components, as the SRB design for the Block 2 has yet to enter the fabrication phase.

Link:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/03/26/is-nasa-preparing-to-cancel-its-space-launch-syste.aspx

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #9 on: 03/20/2023 06:23 pm »
Thanks

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Offline woods170

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #10 on: 03/22/2023 10:04 am »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.

If you got a problem with that then I suggest you use the "Report to moderator" button. But I don't think Chris B. will start "archiving" threads just because you don't like dead ones being resurrected.

Offline hektor

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #11 on: 03/22/2023 10:31 am »
My take on this is the following : so far I was believing that Block 2 was only a a maybe because you might not need the performance increase and just continue flying Block 1Bs.

However, reading the FY24 papers it seems to me now that given that
1) the SRBs are designed not to be reusable on SLS,
2) there is a given inventory of casings and other parts as Shuttle heritage,
3) and NASA has decided not to resume production of those,

the current SRBs will run out by Artemis VIII.

So Block 2 seems to me less hypothetical, since NASA has to go for the new boosters with Artemis IX.

Except if they can find old casings and parts somewhere or overturn their decision and resume production, I do not see how they can do otherwise.

« Last Edit: 03/22/2023 10:33 am by hektor »

Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #12 on: 03/22/2023 01:32 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.

If you got a problem with that then I suggest you use the "Report to moderator" button. But I don't think Chris B. will start "archiving" threads just because you don't like dead ones being resurrected.
The scope of this thread deals with missions for advanced SLS variants, which is why I mentioned on the thread the fact that NASA is looking at Artemis 9 as the first mission for the SLS Block 2 version judging from internal NASA documents.

Offline woods170

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #13 on: 03/22/2023 01:39 pm »
Although this thread is a decade old,

Stop resurrecting old dead threads.  Not our fault you weren't around then.

If you got a problem with that then I suggest you use the "Report to moderator" button. But I don't think Chris B. will start "archiving" threads just because you don't like dead ones being resurrected.
The scope of this thread deals with missions for advanced SLS variants, which is why I mentioned on the thread the fact that NASA is looking at Artemis 9 as the first mission for the SLS Block 2 version judging from internal NASA documents.

Just for clarity: my comment was aimed at Jim, who expressed his disagreement with new life being pumped in old threads. Personally I have no problem with resurrecting 10 year old threads, as long as the resurrection is useful (which in this case I think it is).

Offline woods170

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #14 on: 03/22/2023 02:08 pm »
My take on this is the following : so far I was believing that Block 2 was only a a maybe because you might not need the performance increase and just continue flying Block 1Bs.

However, reading the FY24 papers it seems to me now that given that
1) the SRBs are designed not to be reusable on SLS,
2) there is a given inventory of casings and other parts as Shuttle heritage,
3) and NASA has decided not to resume production of those,

the current SRBs will run out by Artemis VIII.

So Block 2 seems to me less hypothetical, since NASA has to go for the new boosters with Artemis IX.

Except if they can find old casings and parts somewhere or overturn their decision and resume production, I do not see how they can do otherwise.


Here's the thing: originally SLS Block 2 was the vehicle, designated by US Congress, to lift 130 metric tons to LEO.

BUT... sometime in 2020/2021 reality dawned on NASA and NG.

Even with all technology improvements associated with the BOLE program, the improved boosters would never be good enough to allow SLS to reach the 130-metric-tons-to-LEO target.
The performance gap between Block 1B and Block 2 is just too big for that: a whopping 25 metric tons to LEO, from 105 metric tons to LEO for Block 1B, to 130 metric tons to LEO for Block 2.

So, what did NASA do sometime in 2020/2021: they quietly adjusted the definition (and performance target) for SLS Block 2.
SLS Block 2 is now defined as SLS Block 1B, but with BOLE boosters. Performance increase thru TLI is 10% (from 39 metric tons to 43 metric tons). But performance increase for LEO is much less than the required 25 metric tons.

This little fact, as well as the fact that SLS will never launch anything to LEO, is why NASA switched to to TLI and NRHO performance figures only, for SLS. That is a cleverly devious way to obscure the fact, from the average uninformed US taxpayer, that SLS will never reach the original Block 2 performance target.


So yeah, SLS Block 2 will probably live, but not in the form promised to the world back in 2012.
« Last Edit: 03/22/2023 02:11 pm by woods170 »

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #15 on: 03/22/2023 04:20 pm »
I would say that not sticking to a decade-old LEO target that has zero relevance to the missions the vehicle is now executing is a good thing.

Offline hektor

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #16 on: 03/22/2023 05:36 pm »
Too bad. I was hoping a Skylab 2.

Offline woods170

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #17 on: 03/23/2023 10:42 am »
Too bad. I was hoping a Skylab 2.

Forget it. CLD put an axe to that idea.

Offline woods170

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #18 on: 03/23/2023 10:51 am »
I would say that not sticking to a decade-old LEO target that has zero relevance to the missions the vehicle is now executing is a good thing.

And now you understand why people mockingly refer to SLS as the "Senate Launch System".

Performance to LEO never was relevant for SLS, but yet it were performance to LEO figures that were put into law.

Which goes to show that it was never about having an operational SLS, but all about keeping certain contractors funded. Had US Congress actually understood what SLS would be used for, they would have put TLI performance figures or TMI figures into law. But that's not what they did. They put some imaginary LEO performance figures into law, including a growth path.

Why? Well, because US Congress wanted to drag out development as long as possible. Because that would ensure, for the longest possible time, that certain contractors would get funded.

The proof for this is that the "deadline" of December 2016 was carelessly dropped once it became clear that SLS would not make that date. Same for the "$11.5B funding stop" from Nelson. SLS remained funded despite missing the deadline and despite going well over budget. Yet the growth path remains.
All too obvious because it guarantees continued funding of certain contractors with close ties to certain congressional districts.

Offline TomH

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Re: Missions for Advanced SLS versions
« Reply #19 on: 04/02/2023 06:17 am »
I can't find a projected mass of the Dynetics HLS lander. The proposed BO HLS is listed as ca. 15 metric tonnes wet mass and Orion CSM is listed (depending upon the source) as 23 to 26 metric tonnes wet mass. Utilizing BO-HLS and Orion CSM, this is a combined mass of 38 to 41 metric tonnes. Somehow, this seems off, because, IIRC, Apollo CSM-LM total wet mass was around 46 tonnes. It's late and I'm not sure where I might be making an error. (Edit: Is National Team Transfer Element included in the quoted BO-HLS mass? Not sure how much ΔV is needed to transfer from NRHO to LLO.)

Current projections are that SLS Block II with solid boosters would have TLI throw mass of 46 tonnes. It seems that the National Team lander would fit within an adapter above the EUS with Orion atop the HLS, in a Saturn V/Apollo like configuration. The ultimate thing I am wondering about is whether a Lunar single launch architecture of Orion CSM and the BO-HLS on an SLS Block-II (solids) is even within the realm of possibility. Also, with NRHO, I am not sure how much ΔV is required for LOI and where that ΔV would come from in this architecture. The National Team architecture requires multiple NG or Vulcan launches for the HLS (or a single SLS Block IB) and then an SLS Block I for Orion. In this architecture, several launches are reduced to one.

Since the topic of this thread concerns what an advanced block of SLS could be used for, I have to wonder if this is at all possible, purely from a theoretical and technical perspective. I recognize the political ramifications are complicated and a real life application of this is quite different than theory. At the moment, though, I am wondering wether it is even close to being technologically possible.
« Last Edit: 04/02/2023 08:58 am by TomH »

 

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