Author Topic: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2  (Read 707132 times)

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1100 on: 04/06/2018 03:39 pm »
Whoever chose the color marking the recovery zone chose one to dark to stand out well IMO, so a quick color replace seems in order.

I welcome SpaceX to splash down off Anna Maria Island near my winter home anytime.
I wonder if they have a secondary agenda here getting Gulf permissions later extensible to some unnamed future vehicles post Falcon?

The future vehicles would require a whole new set of studies.

Offline Kansan52

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1101 on: 04/06/2018 03:54 pm »
That for both Crew and Cargo Dragon landings?

Likely no since the stated purpose if for CCP.

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1102 on: 04/06/2018 04:03 pm »
That for both Crew and Cargo Dragon landings?

Likely no since the stated purpose if for CCP.

It says it's a backup for both Dragon-1 and Dragon-2.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1103 on: 04/06/2018 04:45 pm »
That for both Crew and Cargo Dragon landings?

Likely no since the stated purpose if for CCP.

It says it's a backup for both Dragon-1 and Dragon-2.

Up to 6 a year sounds like more than a backup.

Quote
Draft Environmental Assessment for Issuing a Reentry License to SpaceX for Landing the Dragon Spacecraft in the Gulf of Mexico
>
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: The FAA is evaluating Space Exploration Technologies Corp.s (SpaceXs) proposal to conduct landings of the Dragon spacecraft (Dragon) in the Gulf of Mexico, which would require the FAA Office of Commercial Space Transportation to issue a reentry license. SpaceX has two versions of Dragon: Dragon-1 and Dragon-2.

Dragon-1 is used for cargo missions to the International Space Station (ISS), and SpaceX intends that Dragon-2 will eventually be used to transport astronauts to the ISS. Under the Proposed Action, the FAA would issue a reentry license to SpaceX, which would authorize SpaceX to conduct up to six Dragon landing operations per year in the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. Each landing operation would include orbital reentry, splashdown, and recovery.
>
 
« Last Edit: 04/06/2018 04:47 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline deruch

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1104 on: 04/06/2018 05:25 pm »
Yes.  It's a contingency for both Dragon-1 and Dragon-2 recoveries.  They already have approval for recoveries in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans for nominal recoveries.
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Offline jak Kennedy

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1105 on: 04/06/2018 06:13 pm »
NASA does not need to speed up itís process until the excess Boeing Soyuz seats have all been used up. Funny how that worked out.

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1106 on: 04/07/2018 12:20 am »
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/environmental/nepa_docs/review/launch/media/draft-EA_SpaceX-Dragon-Gulf-Landing.pdf

This helps mitigate the "Aborting into Sea States with Unsafe Rescue" safety risk (likelihood 3/5, consequence 5/5) seen in the last few ASAP updates.

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1107 on: 04/07/2018 12:41 am »
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/environmental/nepa_docs/review/launch/media/draft-EA_SpaceX-Dragon-Gulf-Landing.pdf

This helps mitigate the "Aborting into Sea States with Unsafe Rescue" safety risk (likelihood 3/5, consequence 5/5) seen in the last few ASAP updates.

I think that risk is mostly during the launch phase.  It would definitely help if there's a storm sitting over your primary landing zone though.

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1108 on: 04/08/2018 02:58 am »
I finally got back to looking at the recent document on the Gulf of Mexico landings.  A lot of great info in the page 75-85 range if you haven't looked at it yet.  Some details on fairing recovery (mentions sending up weather balloons before the fairing recovery attempts), all of the different Dragon landing zones (Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf).  It mentions cargo Dragon 2 will also have its primary landing zone off Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2018 04:00 pm by gongora »

Offline Joffan

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1109 on: 04/08/2018 05:31 pm »
Wow, that Bulb zone is seriously tight to the shore. Is the eastern limit some jurisdictional change like territorial waters?
« Last Edit: 04/08/2018 05:31 pm by Joffan »
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Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1110 on: 04/08/2018 05:37 pm »
Wow, that Bulb zone is seriously tight to the shore. Is the eastern limit some jurisdictional change like territorial waters?

No.  They must think they can land it in a zone that size.  It sounds like Dragon 2 has more precise landing than Dragon 1 (or they're doing more simulation/testing to prove the landing accuracy).

Offline darkenfast

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1111 on: 04/08/2018 06:55 pm »
They also need to ensure that any pieces of the trunk and it's attached hardware which survive re-entry do not come down over densely populated Florida.
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Offline philw1776

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1112 on: 04/08/2018 07:14 pm »
They also need to ensure that any pieces of the trunk and it's attached hardware which survive re-entry do not come down over densely populated Florida.

I'm not sure SpaceX can assure this or if the point is simply moot.
I believe (I know I'll be corrected here if wrong) that the scenario is that the trunk is detached and then the D2 retrofires and re-enters.  The trunk is light with a large cross section so it decays out of LEO fairly quickly but is not guided anywhere.  I believe (again) that its large cross section and relative flimsiness means that chunks do not survive re-entry.
« Last Edit: 04/08/2018 07:15 pm by philw1776 »
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Offline vaporcobra

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1113 on: 04/08/2018 07:32 pm »
Wow, that Bulb zone is seriously tight to the shore. Is the eastern limit some jurisdictional change like territorial waters?

No.  They must think they can land it in a zone that size.  It sounds like Dragon 2 has more precise landing than Dragon 1 (or they're doing more simulation/testing to prove the landing accuracy).

More specifically, here are a few quotes.
Quote
The Dragon spacecraft are similar in make up with the primary differences being limited to the additional propellant load on the Dragon-2, the crew capsule abort capabilities of the Dragon-2, the landing guidance system on the Dragon-2, and the life support system on the Dragon-2.

Quote
The splashdown zone is a circle with a radius of approximately 5.4 nautical miles [and] Dragon has been designed to perform precision landings within the splashdown zone.

Presumably, this means that Dragon 2's landing accuracy is magnitudes smaller than the 10.8 mi diameter splashdown zone.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1114 on: 04/09/2018 07:09 am »
Since it was originally designed to land at the landing zone on land, yes, the GNC is more than accurate enough for the above "bulb".

(And it has more than enough props to assure that.)
Never mind the fact that Dragon 1 landing accuracy is already extremely good. Regularly lands within less than a mile from the recovery fleet.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1115 on: 04/09/2018 05:39 pm »
Since it was originally designed to land at the landing zone on land, yes, the GNC is more than accurate enough for the above "bulb".

(And it has more than enough props to assure that.)
Never mind the fact that Dragon 1 landing accuracy is already extremely good. Regularly lands within less than a mile from the recovery fleet.
To land people that close to the shoreline requires significant control authority to insure an undershoot from a weather system doesn't put you onshore.

Agreed. But in case the weather gets in the way one would be well advised to forgo the primary landing area and target a back-up with better weather.
What do you think this Gulf thing is for, after all... back-up.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1116 on: 04/09/2018 06:20 pm »
Since it was originally designed to land at the landing zone on land, yes, the GNC is more than accurate enough for the above "bulb".

(And it has more than enough props to assure that.)
Never mind the fact that Dragon 1 landing accuracy is already extremely good. Regularly lands within less than a mile from the recovery fleet.
To land people that close to the shoreline requires significant control authority to insure an undershoot from a weather system doesn't put you onshore.

Agreed. But in case the weather gets in the way one would be well advised to forgo the primary landing area and target a back-up with better weather.
Florida weather has been known to change quickly.

Doing energy management of Shuttle much was discovered about this, where those much defamed wings allowed significant lift and flight management latitude. Having props and SuperDraco's that can use them does same.

Quote
What do you think this Gulf thing is for, after all... back-up.
Suggest it is more for ASAP.

If one can't land on land, landing near land as if it was land .. allows you to take and refine practice, possibly to the point where you can gain acceptance to landing on land ... much later, after many flights.

Which was my point, all along.  ;)

add:

Think about BFS propulsive landings (not hops, but from orbit landings).

One could practice certain maneuvers with a propulsive Dragon, both at altitude (simulated Mars landing) and well above ocean. It doesn't even need to actually land on land ever, to be of benefit to BFS (although there are ways by which it could directly benefit certain NASA needs if it did eventually).
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 07:43 pm by Space Ghost 1962 »

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1117 on: 04/09/2018 06:30 pm »
Since it was originally designed to land at the landing zone on land, yes, the GNC is more than accurate enough for the above "bulb".

(And it has more than enough props to assure that.)
Never mind the fact that Dragon 1 landing accuracy is already extremely good. Regularly lands within less than a mile from the recovery fleet.
To land people that close to the shoreline requires significant control authority to insure an undershoot from a weather system doesn't put you onshore.

Agreed. But in case the weather gets in the way one would be well advised to forgo the primary landing area and target a back-up with better weather.
Florida weather has been known to change quickly.

Doing energy management of Shuttle much was discovered about this, where those much defamed wings allowed significant lift and flight management latitude. Having props and SuperDraco's that can use them does same.

Quote
What do you think this Gulf thing is for, after all... back-up.
Suggest it is more for ASAP.

If one can't land on land, landing near land as if it was land .. allows you to take and refine practice, possibly to the point where you can gain acceptance to landing on land ... much later, after many flights.

Which was my point, all along.  ;)

Does the commercial crew contract go all the way through 2028 (assuming ISS still exists until then)?
It would be interesting if in the mid-2020s Dragon 2 is doing propulsive landings.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1118 on: 04/10/2018 07:55 am »
What do you think this Gulf thing is for, after all... back-up.
Suggest it is more for ASAP.

What entity do you think came up with the "suggestion" for back-up landing areas...

In other words: you and I both stated the same thing.

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SpaceX Dragon 2 Updates and Discussion - Thread 2
« Reply #1119 on: 04/12/2018 03:09 am »
Parabolicarc.com (@spacecom) tweeted at 0:37 PM on Thu, Apr 12, 2018:
SpaceX apparently has plans to do something with the Dragon-2 trunk after it separates from the reentry capsule. This from the environmental impact statement on landing Dragons in the Gulf of Mexico. https://t.co/MSF9zEUQ8g
(https://twitter.com/spacecom/status/984228866603417600?s=03)


They plan to separate D2 trunk before deorbit burning, leavin trunk in orbit. With D1 trunk separates after deorbit burn.

I think it could be safety issue, if it doesn't separate in orbit they have lots of time to sort it. After deorbit burn only seconds before it becomes fatal.

Anybody know when Starliner separates from service module?.

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