Quote from: CW on 11/02/2015 03:46 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 11/01/2015 02:50 pm(...)Bingo! If Dr. White is correct in arguing that 4D+ spacetime IS the quantum vacuum and visa versa, and if gravity is an emergent force generated by the forced hydrodynamic flow of the quantum vacuum, then what these EM-Drives are, is a directional "gravity" flow generator powered by E&M fields. The trick now is to prove this conjecture, which at a minimum will take the final marriage of Quantum Mechanics (QM) and General Relativity Theory (GRT)...(...)Best, Paul M.Proving this conjecture can be done by experiment alone, I think. Just put a working thruster on a testbench in high vacuum and use accelerometers in front and in the back of the thruster. In front, you should then measure a 'suction effect', and in the back, a repulsion effect from an enclosed device in vacuum. QED.I think that was one of the first questions I asked joining here by using smoke, someone even said to use cassette tapes. I like yours.I wonder if EW followed through using a laser interferometer in a vacuum setting?Shell
Quote from: Star-Drive on 11/01/2015 02:50 pm(...)Bingo! If Dr. White is correct in arguing that 4D+ spacetime IS the quantum vacuum and visa versa, and if gravity is an emergent force generated by the forced hydrodynamic flow of the quantum vacuum, then what these EM-Drives are, is a directional "gravity" flow generator powered by E&M fields. The trick now is to prove this conjecture, which at a minimum will take the final marriage of Quantum Mechanics (QM) and General Relativity Theory (GRT)...(...)Best, Paul M.Proving this conjecture can be done by experiment alone, I think. Just put a working thruster on a testbench in high vacuum and use accelerometers in front and in the back of the thruster. In front, you should then measure a 'suction effect', and in the back, a repulsion effect from an enclosed device in vacuum. QED.
(...)Bingo! If Dr. White is correct in arguing that 4D+ spacetime IS the quantum vacuum and visa versa, and if gravity is an emergent force generated by the forced hydrodynamic flow of the quantum vacuum, then what these EM-Drives are, is a directional "gravity" flow generator powered by E&M fields. The trick now is to prove this conjecture, which at a minimum will take the final marriage of Quantum Mechanics (QM) and General Relativity Theory (GRT)...(...)Best, Paul M.
Quote from: SeeShells on 11/02/2015 04:02 pmQuote from: CW on 11/02/2015 03:46 pmQuote from: Star-Drive on 11/01/2015 02:50 pm(...)Bingo! If Dr. White is correct in arguing that 4D+ spacetime IS the quantum vacuum and visa versa, and if gravity is an emergent force generated by the forced hydrodynamic flow of the quantum vacuum, then what these EM-Drives are, is a directional "gravity" flow generator powered by E&M fields. The trick now is to prove this conjecture, which at a minimum will take the final marriage of Quantum Mechanics (QM) and General Relativity Theory (GRT)...(...)Best, Paul M.Proving this conjecture can be done by experiment alone, I think. Just put a working thruster on a testbench in high vacuum and use accelerometers in front and in the back of the thruster. In front, you should then measure a 'suction effect', and in the back, a repulsion effect from an enclosed device in vacuum. QED.I think that was one of the first questions I asked joining here by using smoke, someone even said to use cassette tapes. I like yours.I wonder if EW followed through using a laser interferometer in a vacuum setting?ShellGasp!1. Smoke in a vacuum means it isn't a vacuum2. Observed directional flow of smoke means there is observed directional flow of smoke. Doesn't point to cause.I think there is no disagreement that thrust is observed. They debate focuses on why. Smoking will only increase your risk of heart disease, cancer and stroke.
On the accelerometer space acceleration test idea, Would vacuum really be necessary?Secured accelerometer isn't going to accelerate by conventional means, after all.And does the basic idea under test apply to the significant difference in forces detected in air and in vacuum? That is, air filled space accelerated vs. vacuum filled space accelerated? Maybe something to do with the reach of the effect?
Summation article. Useful for those new posters who don't want to plough back all the way through this thread.http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/11/nasa-eagleworks-has-tested-upgraded.html?m=1
I really hope Paul doesn't get in trouble.http://finance.yahoo.com/news/nasa-latest-tests-show-physics-230112770.html
Quote from: Star One on 11/02/2015 08:19 pmSummation article. Useful for those new posters who don't want to plough back all the way through this thread.http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/11/nasa-eagleworks-has-tested-upgraded.html?m=1I'm still waiting for someone to just heat the fustrum and compare the response to that with what is observed when RF is the driving force. Paraphrasing Djikstra, "Testing proves the presence, not the absence of measurement errors".
Quote from: zen-in on 11/03/2015 12:21 am...I'm still waiting for someone to just heat the fustrum and compare the response to that with what is observed when RF is the driving force. Paraphrasing Djikstra, "Testing proves the presence, not the absence of measurement errors".Ambient heating would just cause a rise on horizontal balance beam test stands, the trick would be to simulate a mag on/off condition without actually filling it with MW energy. I suppose a suitable replacement for the frustum could be a round, cylindrical cavity, tuned for resonance but the wrong shape and firing the mag into it.Whatever the effect is, it is not easily identifiable. Lorentz forces are simply too small to make a difference on a setup like mine. The noise floor is way over the forces potomacneuron reported in his paper, which I thought was very useful.
...I'm still waiting for someone to just heat the fustrum and compare the response to that with what is observed when RF is the driving force. Paraphrasing Djikstra, "Testing proves the presence, not the absence of measurement errors".
I'm thinking about heating tests that can done in a vacuum chamber. Thermal camera imaging has shown what part of the fustrum heats up the most. So apply some mylar heating elements to that surface and run a test with the same power level. There also might be heating of the feedline from reflected power. If the response of the system from heating is known it can be subtracted from the test results, just like the Lorentz force error was subtracted out a year ago. Any heat applied to the fustrum will cause movement that is at present not distinguished from a force produced by RF energy. When it is quantified the em-drive force will be known to a higher precision.
Rotary test in a vacuum chamber. Thermal effects are unlikely to result in rotary motion.
Quote from: ThinkerX on 11/03/2015 03:12 amRotary test in a vacuum chamber. Thermal effects are unlikely to result in rotary motion.Ditto
QuoteI'm thinking about heating tests that can done in a vacuum chamber. Thermal camera imaging has shown what part of the fustrum heats up the most. So apply some mylar heating elements to that surface and run a test with the same power level. There also might be heating of the feedline from reflected power. If the response of the system from heating is known it can be subtracted from the test results, just like the Lorentz force error was subtracted out a year ago. Any heat applied to the fustrum will cause movement that is at present not distinguished from a force produced by RF energy. When it is quantified the em-drive force will be known to a higher precision.Rotary test in a vacuum chamber. Thermal effects are unlikely to result in rotary motion.
...However these new plus and minus thrust signatures are still contaminated by thermally induced TP center of gravity (cg) zero-thrust baseline shifts brought on by the expansion of the copper frustum and aluminum RF amp and its heat sink when heated by the RF, even though these copper and aluminum cg shifts are now fighting each other. (Sadly these TP cg baseline shifts are ~3X larger in-vacuum than in-air due to the better insulating qualities of the vacuum, so the in-vacuum thrust runs look very thermally contaminated whereas the in-air run look very impulsive.) ...Best, Paul March
Yet another article written about recent news on the EmDrive.http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/researchers-conduct-successful-new-tests-of-emdrive/What I like about those new articles is that when you compare them to the first news about the EmDrive, these new are more calm and less "hype". They are also trying to explain what is currently going on in a language that "normal" readers will understand.What this means to us? It means that thanks to people like Rfmwguy, Paul March, Dr. Rodal, See-Shell, moderators of the NSF and many others here the EmDrive is starting to get step by step on its credibility.See-Shells and TTs coming tests may yet push us further. Of course same goes for the NASA EW.I hope this restores some of your motivation and hope for further testing. Of course when offical NASA paper is out, there will be a lot of criticism as usual. My advice is, that it is good listen to it as they provide some interesting "mirrior", but I also advice ignore offensive criticism as we see from some people at the reddit forum.NSF forum is a shining example that a debate and share of knowledge can be civil . It also means that this little forum can get into the books as one of the places where scientists, engineers and critics pushed forward the technology that may help us reach the stars.
... If it were possible to actually impart those particle pairs with a unidirectional impulse while they exist.. what would happen to the impulse...at the moment when the borrowed energy is returned to the quantum vacuum?......it seems likely that this would lead to spacetime locally gaining momentum itself...accelerated...A body in front of the thruster nozzle would then feel a repulsive force coming from the nozzle, caused by the spacetime volume that's being moved by the thruster. Since matter is embedded in spacetime, the moving spacetime would then act like a volume of water that's flowing down a river, as seen by the embedded matter....BTW, IF QV spacetime flow is the root cause of the phenomenon we call gravity generated by mass, IMO there has to be at least one more spatial dimension beyond our normally perceived 3D universe to provide this QV gravity flow a "drain" back into the universal QV reservoir.