Author Topic: Need help our Canadian members  (Read 3527 times)

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37442
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21452
  • Likes Given: 428
Need help our Canadian members
« on: 01/30/2008 02:40 pm »
I would think it would be better if "locals" responded to this editorial

http://www.wellandtribune.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=880655

Once again, anything that has to do with space is automatically associated with NASA, eg USA-193

Offline stockman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6916
  • Southern Ontario - Canada
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #1 on: 01/30/2008 02:57 pm »
Wow.. the Welland (armpit) tribune... I grew up in Welland and know of what kind of local rag this is. Its circulation is in the few tens of thousands to local residents of an aging post industrial steel town and in my opinion isn't worth much of a rebuttal. Of course since I live near Welland currently I may try to send in a rebuttal but I would not worry too much about this piece.

How the heck did you come across this Jim?
One Percent for Space!!!

Offline kevin-rf

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8823
  • Overlooking the path Mary's little Lamb took..
  • Liked: 1318
  • Likes Given: 306
RE: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #2 on: 01/30/2008 03:06 pm »
Quote
Chad Milbrandt is a member of The Tribune Youth Editorial Board.

You are trying to argue with a teenager, enough said...
If you're happy and you know it,
It's your med's!

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37442
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21452
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #3 on: 01/30/2008 03:29 pm »
Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  10:57 AM

How the heck did you come across this Jim?

The first place I go every morning and several more times each day

http://www.spacetoday.net/

Offline stockman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6916
  • Southern Ontario - Canada
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #4 on: 01/30/2008 04:14 pm »
Quote
Jim - 30/1/2008  11:29 AM

Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  10:57 AM

How the heck did you come across this Jim?

The first place I go every morning and several more times each day

http://www.spacetoday.net/



Thanks for the pointer Jim. I will have to add that to my list.

As for the Welland Tribune article, I penned a response and emailed it to the editor of the paper. Felt good if nothing else. Not my best writing but a detailed response anyway given the time I had at work over lunch.

Now - on to more important matters!  :)
One Percent for Space!!!

Offline HIPAR

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 585
  • NE Pa (USA)
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #5 on: 01/30/2008 04:47 pm »
Another idealistic young person indoctrinated with the belief that we can remedy what's wrong here by depriving mankind of the pitiful few human endeavors that make our efforts on earth right.

Give that essay an A+ for elegance of composition.

---  CHAS

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #6 on: 02/03/2008 06:06 pm »
Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  5:14 PM

Quote
Jim - 30/1/2008  11:29 AM

Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  10:57 AM

How the heck did you come across this Jim?

The first place I go every morning and several more times each day

http://www.spacetoday.net/



Thanks for the pointer Jim. I will have to add that to my list. :)

Spacetoday is very good. That's why it's a sticky at the top of this very section! ;)

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7930&posts=1&start=1
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline generic_handle_42

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1209
  • Toronto, Ontario
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #7 on: 02/04/2008 02:34 am »
The Welland Tribune, huh?  Never heard of it.  Then again, I don't go to Welland much.  It's a little out of my way... and for what?  A canal?  

Anyway, I'm sure Welland is a lovely city.  Here is a little more info on the town for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welland%2C_Ontario

I'd respond to the article, but I'm a little too geographically distant for it to mean much.  I think I'll just wait for the day that my little town's local paper runs a space-related article that gets picked up by a major website....  :laugh:
-Nick-

Offline Vladimir_m

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #8 on: 03/13/2008 08:23 pm »
Wow, what a great thread this has proven to be...

The discussion evident on this page offers a wonderfully precise example illustrating the degree of maturity enjoyed by participating forum members. What gives you the right to completely disregard this young man's (Chad) arguments because of his age or his location? Such personal attacks do nothing to promote discourse over the subject matter.

For a site privy to so much potential, all is for nothing if we do not value the exchange of ideas. Furthermore, not one member here attempted to remedy the (so called) flaws/errors in Chad's article, nor offered to post a rebuttal. Your omission only augments my initial assertion of your cowardice, immaturity, and your general disparaging disposition.

As for Chad's arguments, his opinions are completely well-founded, well-argued, and accurate. Perhaps it is his stinging criticism that has exposed your intellectual insecurities and agitated your cosmic complacency. How dare you silence his opinions as "Idealistic"! Was it not "Idealism" that initiated the entire space movement?

Perhaps that classic one-liner is appropriate: Why don't you all go to the library and brush up on your ignorance?

Offline meiza

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3067
  • Where Be Dragons
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #9 on: 03/13/2008 08:31 pm »
I can't see the article on the site.

Offline Jorge

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6404
  • Liked: 529
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #10 on: 03/13/2008 08:41 pm »
Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  11:14 AM

Quote
Jim - 30/1/2008  11:29 AM

Quote
stockman - 30/1/2008  10:57 AM

How the heck did you come across this Jim?

The first place I go every morning and several more times each day

http://www.spacetoday.net/



Thanks for the pointer Jim. I will have to add that to my list.

I'll concur. I've used it for years. It's not a space news site like NSF, but an aggregator of every other site's news, with links. Best aggregator of space news out there, IMO.
JRF

Offline Terry Rocket

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
  • Birmingham, England
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #11 on: 03/13/2008 08:54 pm »
Quote
Vladimir_m - 13/3/2008  4:23 PM

Wow, what a great thread this has proven to be...

The discussion evident on this page offers a wonderfully precise example illustrating the degree of maturity enjoyed by participating forum members. What gives you the right to completely disregard this young man's (Chad) arguments because of his age or his location? Such personal attacks do nothing to promote discourse over the subject matter.

For a site privy to so much potential, all is for nothing if we do not value the exchange of ideas. Furthermore, not one member here attempted to remedy the (so called) flaws/errors in Chad's article, nor offered to post a rebuttal. Your omission only augments my initial assertion of your cowardice, immaturity, and your general disparaging disposition.

As for Chad's arguments, his opinions are completely well-founded, well-argued, and accurate. Perhaps it is his stinging criticism that has exposed your intellectual insecurities and agitated your cosmic complacency. How dare you silence his opinions as "Idealistic"! Was it not "Idealism" that initiated the entire space movement?

Perhaps that classic one-liner is appropriate: Why don't you all go to the library and brush up on your ignorance?

Hi Chad!

Offline stockman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6916
  • Southern Ontario - Canada
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #12 on: 03/13/2008 09:29 pm »
Quote
Vladimir_m - 13/3/2008  5:23 PM

Wow, what a great thread this has proven to be...

The discussion evident on this page offers a wonderfully precise example illustrating the degree of maturity enjoyed by participating forum members. What gives you the right to completely disregard this young man's (Chad) arguments because of his age or his location? Such personal attacks do nothing to promote discourse over the subject matter.

For a site privy to so much potential, all is for nothing if we do not value the exchange of ideas. Furthermore, not one member here attempted to remedy the (so called) flaws/errors in Chad's article, nor offered to post a rebuttal. Your omission only augments my initial assertion of your cowardice, immaturity, and your general disparaging disposition.

As for Chad's arguments, his opinions are completely well-founded, well-argued, and accurate. Perhaps it is his stinging criticism that has exposed your intellectual insecurities and agitated your cosmic complacency. How dare you silence his opinions as "Idealistic"! Was it not "Idealism" that initiated the entire space movement?

Perhaps that classic one-liner is appropriate: Why don't you all go to the library and brush up on your ignorance?

Actually there were several very well written responses to this young persons article, (one from me included) that was printed on the web site in the day or two after this appeared. I think there were a lot of corrections made to the flawed article so your point really seems way out there to me. Chad got it all wrong plain and simple. Besides an opinion which he is entitled to he printed many points that were simply wrong. I think myself and the others that emailed the paper were very kind to him quite frankly.
One Percent for Space!!!

Offline JonSBerndt

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
  • Westminster, CO
    • JSBSim Open Source Flight Dynamics Software Library
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 61
RE: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #13 on: 03/14/2008 01:07 am »
It's a fair question to ask, how does the money spent on NASA provide a benefit? Unfortunately, when an answer is provided by the person asking the question, it is usually already tailored to support the preconceived position held by the questioner, and it usually happens during or just after a space shuttle mission (supporting the notion that the tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut). The answer usually provided also (in my experience) shows virtually no serious thought or research. Worse yet (as in the case of some well-known NASA-bashers), a piece can read like it has been given some thought, but on closer examination, the facts are distorted or false, or the conclusions jumped to don't make sense.

If someone is going to suggest that the money that is spent on NASA would be better spent somewhere else, I'd like to hear a reason why the money should come from NASA in particular (and only NASA) and not from any of the following places:


Table S–3. Discretionary Funding by Major Agency
(Net budget authority; dollar amounts in billions)
 
Agency
2001
Actual
2008
Enacted
2009
Request
Change:

 

2008–2009
2001–2009

 

Dollar
Percent
Average
Cumulative

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

   Agriculture
19.2
21.8
20.8
−1.1
−4.8%
+1.0%
+8.0%

 

   Commerce
5.1
6.9
8.2
+1.3
+18.4%
+6.1%
+60.4%

 

   Defense
302.5
479.5
515.4
+36.0
+7.5%
+6.9%
+70.4%

 

   Education
40.1
57.2
59.2
+2.0
+3.5%
+5.0%
+47.6%

 

   Energy
20.0
23.9
25.0
+1.1
+4.7%
+2.8%
+24.9%

 

   Health and Human Services
54.0
71.9
70.4
−1.5
−2.1%
+3.4%
+30.2%

 

   Homeland Security
14.0
34.9
37.6
+2.7
+7.7%
+13.2%
+168.8%

 

   Housing and Urban Development
28.4
37.4
38.5
+1.1
+2.9%
+3.9%
+35.7%

 

   Interior
10.3
11.0
10.6
−0.4
−3.7%
+0.4%
+3.5%

 

   Justice
18.4
22.7
20.3
−2.4
−10.7%
+1.2%
+10.4%

 

   Labor
11.9
11.4
10.5
−0.9
−7.8%
−1.6%
−11.9%

 

   State and Other International Programs
21.7
32.9
38.3
+5.4
+16.5%
+7.3%
+76.2%

 

   Transportation
14.6
15.5
11.5
−4.0
−25.7%
−2.9%
−20.9%

 

   Treasury
10.3
12.0
12.5
+0.5
+3.9%
+2.4%
+20.6%

 

   Veterans Affairs
22.4
39.4
44.8
+5.3
+13.5%
+9.1%
+100.1%

 

   Corps of Engineers
4.7
5.6
4.7
−0.8
−15.1%
+0.1%
+1.2%

 

   Environmental Protection Agency
7.8
7.5
7.1
−0.3
−4.4%
−1.2%
−8.8%

 

   Executive Office of the President
0.3
0.3
0.4
*
+5.6%
+3.9%
+35.9%

 

   Judicial Branch
4.0
5.8
6.3
+0.5
+8.1%
+5.9%
+58.6%

 

   Legislative Branch
2.8
4.0
4.7
+0.7
+17.7%
+7.0%
+71.6%

 

   National Aeronautics and Space Administration
14.3
17.1
17.6
+0.5
+2.9%
+2.7%
+23.6%

 

   National Science Foundation
4.4
6.0
6.9
+0.8
+13.6%
+5.6%
+54.7%

 

   Small Business Administration
0.9
0.6
0.7
+0.1
+15.5%
−3.9%
−27.0%

 

   Social Security Administration
6.0
8.0
8.4
+0.4
+4.9%
+4.3%
+40.0%

 

   Other Agencies
5.8
8.0
7.2
−0.7
−9.0%
+2.8%
+25.0%

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Total, Discretionary Funding
643.8
941.4
987.6
+46.2
+4.9%
+5.5%
+53.4%

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

There are also earmarks. From wikipedia: "Congress' year-end budget passed in December 2007 contains nearly 10,000 Congressional earmarks worth $10.4 billion, according to a comprehensive database compiled by Taxpayers for Common Sense." Why are those not mentioned?

Does the questioner have any idea what any of the money in the above budget is spent on for any of the departments listed? Can the questioner name products or specific services from all of the departments in the above budget? Does the questioner have any idea what NASA research has resulted in? Doing a google search on “NASA-developed technology”, “partnership with NASA”, “NASA/Debakey heart pump”, “NASA and diabetes research”, etc., yields tens of thousands of hits. A quick look at some of these shows several interesting stories. A fireproofing coating was developed from Apollo heat shield technology (http://www.chartek.com/). You want to address hunger? How about this, "Technology Predicts African Food Shortages" (http://desertification.wordpress.com/2007/07/31/technology-to-predict-african-food-shortages-scidevnet/):

"Satellite data could soon help predict and manage food shortages in Africa, with the help of a new model developed by NASA. Molly Brown, from NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Centre, has developed a model that combines remotely-sensed crop data with grain prices to predict changes in food prices in the future. “We hope that the model can directly benefit small and medium sized traders and businessmen in the region once it becomes operational,” Brown told SciDev.Net."

How about research in medicine? Go to the NASA Technical Reports Server (http://ntrs.nasa.gov) and you can find research papers such as: "Melatonin concentrations in the sudden infant death syndrome". Decades of historical aeronautical research (8000+ reports) done by the NASA predecessor agency (NACA) can be found at http://naca.larc.nasa.gov. Do a search at the NTRS web site on "air traffic safety" and you get over 400 technical reports listed.

You can do a Google search on pretty much NASA+{anything} and come up with results that show how NASA R&D has affected what we do and how we live, a lot of it in the area of health and safety.

I'd also like to see examples of where funding has been taken from any of the agencies above and has been redirected to have a significant impact on eliminating hunger, disease, or whatever.

I could go on and on.

Jon

 


Offline Oberon_Command

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Need help our Canadian members
« Reply #14 on: 03/14/2008 01:31 am »
Quote
HIPAR - 30/1/2008  9:47 AM

Another idealistic young person indoctrinated with the belief that we can remedy what's wrong here by depriving mankind of the pitiful few human endeavors that make our efforts on earth right.

Give that essay an A+ for elegance of composition.

---  CHAS

I should have done so earlier, but I wish to point out that not all young Canadians, idealistic or otherwise, are indoctrinated with that particular belief. It is a widely-held view, however, and one that I've attempted to debunk at every opportunity. Unfortunately, along with other views, it seems to run just a little deeper than is worth rooting out and correcting.

It's sad that my generation seems to have such little vision when it comes to exploration and space...

Quote
Hi Chad!

I have a sneaking suspicion that Vladimir's post was unrecognized sarcasm, but then again, this is the internet, you never know.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1