Author Topic: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)  (Read 745509 times)

Offline matthewkantar

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Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« on: 04/30/2020 05:32 pm »
This is crazy news. Did not see this coming.

Edit/Lar:
For speculation on what a design might look like, see:
 https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49144

I expect that will rapidly change gears to speculate on details of the proposal that are not yet known, and similar
« Last Edit: 02/01/2021 06:13 pm by gongora »

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #1 on: 04/30/2020 05:36 pm »
Link to NASA video announcing the lander contractors.


Offline Frakkel

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #2 on: 04/30/2020 05:38 pm »
Reality has finally arrived. It will be interesting to follow this side project for SpaceX. How to handle fast iterations with crew approved design. By looking at the dragon they will probably have to make some major design changes that will prolong time to flight.

Online freddo411

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #3 on: 04/30/2020 05:39 pm »
This is great for SX.

Lots of commonality with SS as a:

* Reusable launcher
* Eventual Mars spacecraft
* A moon flyby spacecraft for Yusaku Maezawa.   

So this NASA contract will contribute funding to help accomplish all of those SX goals

Offline steveleach

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #4 on: 04/30/2020 05:41 pm »
Utterly momentous, in all kinds of ways.

Three companies/consortiums racing at breakneck speed to get people back to the moon in 4 years!

What a time to be alive.

And Starship part of Artemis? That'll worry a lot of vested interests I bet.

----
Edit: I realised that there wasn't a link to the source selection statement on the first page of this thread, so here it is:

https://beta.sam.gov/api/prod/opps/v3/opportunities/resources/files/3488c1f1556745cb87c046135d8ffe00/download?api_key=null&token=
« Last Edit: 02/20/2021 12:48 pm by steveleach »

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #5 on: 04/30/2020 05:42 pm »
Having NASA provide funds for fuel transfer demo is definitely not business as usual!

Online tssp_art

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #6 on: 04/30/2020 05:42 pm »
Two other winners - the Blue Origin "National Team" with LM, NG, and Draper Labs and the Dynetics Team.
« Last Edit: 04/30/2020 05:44 pm by tssp_art »

Offline Ludus

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Offline ioncloud9

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #8 on: 04/30/2020 05:44 pm »
Utterly momentous, in all kinds of ways.

Three companies/consortiums racing at breakneck speed to get people back to the moon in 4 years!

What a time to be alive.

And Starship part of Artemis? That'll worry a lot of vested interests I bet.

At some point someone will ask "What do we need Orion for if this huge ship can do it?"

Offline dnavas

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #9 on: 04/30/2020 05:49 pm »
I bet those aren't spotlights  ;D
Also, losing the "wings" and tiles is probably the biggest weight loss program you could put the Starship on.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1255907213568208896
« Last Edit: 04/30/2020 05:50 pm by dnavas »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #10 on: 04/30/2020 05:53 pm »
Interesting, special landing thrusters. Certainly useful on the moon.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #11 on: 04/30/2020 05:53 pm »
Utterly momentous, in all kinds of ways.

Three companies/consortiums racing at breakneck speed to get people back to the moon in 4 years!

What a time to be alive.

And Starship part of Artemis? That'll worry a lot of vested interests I bet.

At some point someone will ask "What do we need Orion for if this huge ship can do it?"

This vehicle doesn't have any apparent earth return capability (either to earth orbit or earth surface). The earth return capability required probably too many launches and was highly sensitive to any mass growth (deleting the heat shield, wings, fins, earth return propellant, second landing propellant helps with that last part).

Offline Neopork

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #12 on: 04/30/2020 05:54 pm »
Utterly momentous, in all kinds of ways.

Three companies/consortiums racing at breakneck speed to get people back to the moon in 4 years!

What a time to be alive.

And Starship part of Artemis? That'll worry a lot of vested interests I bet.

At some point someone will ask "What do we need Orion for if this huge ship can do it?"

Hush! You're being too logical 😁😉
Nerd. Dad. Husband. MBA. 3D Artist. Patreon.com/Neopork
Twitter.com/Neopork85

Online tssp_art

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #13 on: 04/30/2020 05:55 pm »
I bet those aren't spotlights  ;D

Agree. Those are likely to be some version of those upgraded Methalox thrusters that EM has described as part of the Starship RCS. Landing by thrusters is possible in the 1/6 G of the moon. Mounting them high up addresses the concerns about digging a hole from the rocket exhaust and the dangers of ejected matter.

Quote
Also, losing the "wings" and tiles is probably the biggest weight loss program you could put the Starship on.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1255907213568208896

Could also change the course of prototype development.

Offline Ad_Astra7

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #14 on: 04/30/2020 05:55 pm »
Breakdown of the award:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/nasa-awards-lunar-lander-contracts-to-blue-origin-dynetics-and-starship/

Quote
The awards, which cover a period of 10 months, were given to the following teams:

$579 million to the Blue Origin-led "National Team." Blue Origin will serve as the prime contractor, building the Blue Moon lunar lander as the "descent element" of the system, along with program management, systems engineering, and safety and mission assurance. Lockheed Martin will develop a reusable "ascent element" and lead crewed flight operations. Northrop Grumman will build the "transfer element," and Draper will lead descent guidance and provide flight avionics. It will launch on a New Glenn rocket.

$253 million to a Dynetics-led team. The company's proposal for a lunar lander is non-traditional and includes Sierra Nevada Corporation as a major partner. The ALPACA lander has a pair of drop tanks that are launched separately, which allow the main lander to be reused. These tanks are depleted and then jettisoned during descent. ALPACA could be launched on United Launch Alliance's Vulcan rocket.

$135 million to SpaceX. The company bid its Super Heavy rocket and Starship to carry humans to the Moon. The benefit of Starship is that if the vehicle is successful, it would offer NASA a low-cost, reusable solution for its needs.

Offline steveleach

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #15 on: 04/30/2020 05:57 pm »
Utterly momentous, in all kinds of ways.

Three companies/consortiums racing at breakneck speed to get people back to the moon in 4 years!

What a time to be alive.

And Starship part of Artemis? That'll worry a lot of vested interests I bet.

At some point someone will ask "What do we need Orion for if this huge ship can do it?"

This vehicle doesn't have any apparent earth return capability (either to earth orbit or earth surface). The earth return capability required probably too many launches and was highly sensitive to any mass growth (deleting the heat shield, wings, fins, earth return propellant, second landing propellant helps with that last part).
...as well as making LOP-G entirely redundant.

Nope, you need to return from Lunar surface to LOP-G, and from there you can transfer to something else for return to earth.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #16 on: 04/30/2020 05:58 pm »
Breakdown of the award:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/nasa-awards-lunar-lander-contracts-to-blue-origin-dynetics-and-starship/

Quote
The awards, which cover a period of 10 months, were given to the following teams:

$579 million to the Blue Origin-led "National Team." Blue Origin will serve as the prime contractor, building the Blue Moon lunar lander as the "descent element" of the system, along with program management, systems engineering, and safety and mission assurance. Lockheed Martin will develop a reusable "ascent element" and lead crewed flight operations. Northrop Grumman will build the "transfer element," and Draper will lead descent guidance and provide flight avionics. It will launch on a New Glenn rocket.

$253 million to a Dynetics-led team. The company's proposal for a lunar lander is non-traditional and includes Sierra Nevada Corporation as a major partner. The ALPACA lander has a pair of drop tanks that are launched separately, which allow the main lander to be reused. These tanks are depleted and then jettisoned during descent. ALPACA could be launched on United Launch Alliance's Vulcan rocket.

$135 million to SpaceX. The company bid its Super Heavy rocket and Starship to carry humans to the Moon. The benefit of Starship is that if the vehicle is successful, it would offer NASA a low-cost, reusable solution for its needs.

Most ambitious (risky?) proposal is awarded one quarter of the money laid out for least ambitious proposal.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #17 on: 04/30/2020 05:58 pm »
DM

Offline Thunderscreech

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #18 on: 04/30/2020 06:00 pm »
If you zoom in on the base of the landing lunar Starship, you can see a single glowing vacuum raptor and a single glowing sea-level Raptor.  I'd guess they're using the SL Raptor for steering along with the more efficient vacuum raptor to do an off-axis descent burn right up until they switch over to the Goddard thrust arrangement for terminal landing. 
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Offline Ludus

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Re: Starship Artemis Contract (Lunar Starship)
« Reply #19 on: 04/30/2020 06:01 pm »
Awards just based on what each submission requested over the next ten months, not based on any other weighting. Further awards based on progress after the ten months. A big incentive for Starship as fast as possible approach.

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