Author Topic: Golden Moon  (Read 14256 times)

Offline jee_c2

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #20 on: 02/20/2020 06:49 am »
It would probably take less energy to turn the Moon into a mini Globus Cassus than to try and transmute the majority of its mass into transuranics.
I agree, this ttansmuting business needs some energy. Ok, tremendous energy.
We have to remember, that his topic is rather a game of thoughts, since there are many more economic ways of creating habitats in space, at Moon distance, than the Golden* Moon.

Thanks for mentioning the Globus Cassus, interesting idea.

Offline jee_c2

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #21 on: 02/20/2020 07:11 am »
Using black holes.
Instead of waiting for the proper sized one - which close to impossible, not mention, how to handle it, I think, we should create the needed ones.

I'm not sure, whether it is possible to create micro black holes by colliding hadrons with high enough energy, but let's asume, it can be done. Actually, while starting to use the LHC, iit was one topic of discussions.

Ghis could mean, we would have these tiny-tiny blaxk holes. Detecting these,, my idea was to feed them with charged particles to give electric charge to these . Then we can controll these with the help of EM fields. Thus, preventing those to "eat" uncontrolled way. The transportation of these could also be possible this way.

So create these place them to storage containers, large enough, that the container walls would not be teared apart because of the too big gravitational gradient, and strong enough to survive the force.

The question is: what should be the density of such a container? We can vary the black hole mass, we can vary the amount of charge, depending on the container size..

If the conditions, restrictions let it, these could be put into the core of the inner moon. And feeding these could be from the mined material.

The big cyclotron for the black hole creation could be built on the Moon surface, fed by energy produced by the solar energy.

Remember: game of thoughts! :)

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #22 on: 02/20/2020 11:27 am »
I'm not sure, whether it is possible to create micro black holes by colliding hadrons with high enough energy, but let's asume, it can be done. Actually, while starting to use the LHC, iit was one topic of discussions.

Even if you could create a micro black hole, it would almost instantly evaporate away very violently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole

Offline Paul451

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #23 on: 02/20/2020 05:05 pm »
It's not clear that there is a way to make these small black holes other than taking the black hole that results from the end of life of a sufficiently-large star and then waiting until enough of it has evaporated that it's moon-mass or smaller.

You can create a micro black hole if you concentrate enough laser energy into a small enough space. E=mc2. The black hole doesn't care what it's made from, just that the local energy density exceeds a critical amount, and photons aren't subject to the Pauli Exclusion. ("Kugelblitz black hole" if you're interested on googling it.) Once you've created an event horizon, you can then feed it any mass or energy in whatever form you wish. Including heat. BHs might be unlimited heat-sinks. (A la free energy machines.)

Even if you could create a micro black hole, it would almost instantly evaporate away very violently.

You scale it so the Hawking radiation equals the rate of your mass input. This also allows you to turn the BH into a matter/energy converted. Controlled BHs would be insanely useful to an advanced civilisation.

I have to wonder -- if we have the massive resources to do any of this, why not just build a new planet from scratch that has the properties we're looking for?

Or build an orbital ring or Bishop ring with the desired properties. Or build centrifuges on (or in) the moon with the preferred g-load. Or any number of other, lower tech, vastly lower energy ways to achieve the same result.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #24 on: 02/20/2020 05:22 pm »
You can create a micro black hole if you concentrate enough laser energy into a small enough space. E=mc2. The black hole doesn't care what it's made from, just that the local energy density exceeds a critical amount, and photons aren't subject to the Pauli Exclusion. ("Kugelblitz black hole" if you're interested on googling it.) Once you've created an event horizon, you can then feed it any mass or energy in whatever form you wish. Including heat. BHs might be unlimited heat-sinks. (A la free energy machines.)

That's an interesting idea I hadn't heard before.  It sounds incredibly difficult, but not theoretically impossible.  It's mind boggling to imagine the laser setup you'd need to get enough photon energy into a small enough area to make that work.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #25 on: 02/20/2020 10:05 pm »
[Kugelblitz black hole]
It's mind boggling to imagine the laser setup you'd need to get enough photon energy into a small enough area to make that work.

Yeah, it's the kind of thing you save for when hydrogen fusion is no longer mass-efficient enough for your civilisation.

Offline jee_c2

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #26 on: 02/21/2020 05:26 am »
I'm not sure, whether it is possible to create micro black holes by colliding hadrons with high enough energy, but let's asume, it can be done. Actually, while starting to use the LHC, iit was one topic of discussions.

Even if you could create a micro black hole, it would almost instantly evaporate away very violently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
On the wiki link, describing the possible lowest mass of a black hole, there is a mention of 1016kg as the theoretical minimum.
I'm not sure, how this correlates with Kugelblitz blackhole mentioned by Paul451.

Also, there was some sentences about the LHC, and if that could produce micro black holes (because of the extra dimensions can reduce the needed energy level), which could be detected. I missed the part, where it was stated, that it actually happened (observed) or not. I do a quick search...
Found this:
Quote
... The rarity of ultra-high energy collisions is also one of the reasons that physicists have not been able to confirm or disprove the formation of mini-black holes in this way. Still, this could change over the next few years, as the Pierre Auger Cosmic Ray Observatory in Argentina, which has just started taking data, becomes fully operational. ...
https://www.einstein-online.info/en/spotlight/accelerators_bh/

Let's see.. there is a study about it: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1809.05089.pdf
And there is another study on hypothetical stable micro black hole production at future 100 TeV collider: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04949.pdf
TBH these studies are too heavy weight for me, but reflecting on the fact, that this field is actively studied, and not considered as impossible.

Assuming, that it turns out, we can create such mini black holes, and can feed them fast enough, so they got stabilized, and does not evaporate instantly, then using this the described way can be a good solution for reaching the 50 kg/dm3 average density of the inner moon.
And also, it does not need so much energy, than transmuting that much material (also considering they should be elevated to higher energy levels, up from the iron valley).

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #27 on: 02/21/2020 06:05 am »
[Kugelblitz black hole]
It's mind boggling to imagine the laser setup you'd need to get enough photon energy into a small enough area to make that work.

Yeah, it's the kind of thing you save for when hydrogen fusion is no longer mass-efficient enough for your civilisation.

It's interesting to me that the power requirement to make a black hole from light is a constant, independent of the mass of the black hole, since the Schwarzschild radius is a linear function of the energy put into the black hole initially and along the path of each beam of photons contributing to the hole the energy all has to fit within twice that radius.  So scale up the mass/energy of the black hole by a factor of 2 and you also double the length each beam is allowed to be and hence double the time you have to put that energy into the beam.  The longer you can hold that power level, the less precise you have to be in aiming your beams and the bigger the black hole that results.

The Schwarzschild radius is 2Gm/c^2, so the time you have to send the energy is twice that divided by c, or 4Gm/c^3.  Since we know e=mc^2, m=e/c^2, so the time window to send the energy is t=4Ge/c^5.  Power is energy over time, so we get power =e/t=c^5/4G=(3x10^8m/s)^5/4(6.7x10^-11m^3kg^-1s^-2)=243*10^29/4*6.7 m^2.s^-3.kg = 9*10^29 watts.

Our sun puts out around 3.8x10^26 watts of power, so you need all the power of 3,000 suns to make a black hole from light.  Of course you don't need that power for very long for a small black hole.  But it's still a lot of power.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #28 on: 02/21/2020 06:36 am »
I'm not sure, whether it is possible to create micro black holes by colliding hadrons with high enough energy, but let's asume, it can be done. Actually, while starting to use the LHC, iit was one topic of discussions.

Even if you could create a micro black hole, it would almost instantly evaporate away very violently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
On the wiki link, describing the possible lowest mass of a black hole, there is a mention of 1016kg as the theoretical minimum.

That minimum mass is only according to one theory among many.

I'm not sure, how this correlates with Kugelblitz blackhole mentioned by Paul451.

If that theory is true it would apply whether the black hole was created from matter or light.

Also, there was some sentences about the LHC, and if that could produce micro black holes (because of the extra dimensions can reduce the needed energy level), which could be detected. I missed the part, where it was stated, that it actually happened (observed) or not. I do a quick search...

No evidence for micro black holes created by the LHC has been published.  If and when it is, you'll definitely hear about it.

Found this:
Quote
... The rarity of ultra-high energy collisions is also one of the reasons that physicists have not been able to confirm or disprove the formation of mini-black holes in this way. Still, this could change over the next few years, as the Pierre Auger Cosmic Ray Observatory in Argentina, which has just started taking data, becomes fully operational. ...
https://www.einstein-online.info/en/spotlight/accelerators_bh/

Let's see.. there is a study about it: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1809.05089.pdf
And there is another study on hypothetical stable micro black hole production at future 100 TeV collider: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04949.pdf
TBH these studies are too heavy weight for me, but reflecting on the fact, that this field is actively studied, and not considered as impossible.

That last study doesn't give any evidence or theory for the idea that micro black holes are stable, it just assumes they are to see what some of the consequences would be if they were.

Offline Pete

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #29 on: 03/02/2020 10:24 am »
If you have the atomic transmutation magic available to fiddle with the elemental composition of the Mon, then you are way, way, way, way^lots past the point where the Moon would be of interest. Rather work with one of the juicy moons of Jupiter or Saturn, where you have a much better foundation to build on.
Or even planets of nearby stars. The energy used to nucleiform a whole moon is MUCH better used to fly your starship to a better planet, even if you have to cross a few lightyears to do so.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #30 on: 03/03/2020 12:19 am »
If you have the atomic transmutation magic available to fiddle with the elemental composition of the Mon, then you are way, way, way, way^lots past the point where the Moon would be of interest. Rather work with one of the juicy moons of Jupiter or Saturn, where you have a much better foundation to build on.
Or even planets of nearby stars. The energy used to nucleiform a whole moon is MUCH better used to fly your starship to a better planet, even if you have to cross a few lightyears to do so.

I would suggest at that level, planets themselves wouldn't be interesting. Not a very efficient use of matter. Just manufacture "bubble worlds" and similar mega-structures to order.

Offline ppnl

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Re: Golden Moon
« Reply #31 on: 03/03/2020 09:53 pm »


Meh, forget gold. Just drop some dark matter into the moon. You would need to cool it to a very low temp. And that much mass would change the tides on earth. But if you have god like technology you got to use it.

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